The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

Ferm Sheller

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I don’t remember who was available. I’m sure there was at least one. Are you saying there wasn’t a single backup QB available?
Whoever they brought in they would have brought in to be *Mac's back up*, and whoever that is wouldn't have made any difference.
 

Shelterdog

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I don’t remember who was available. I’m sure there was at least one. Are you saying there wasn’t a single backup QB available?
No I’m asking you to explain what kind of player you think the pats should have brought in. There are basically two ways to get a functional backup: pay 4-8 million bucks a year for a colt mccoy or case keenum (who by the way suck) or draft a guy and hope he works out (which they did with zappe).
 

8slim

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No I’m asking you to explain what kind of player you think the pats should have brought in. There are basically two ways to get a functional backup: pay 4-8 million bucks a year for a colt mccoy or case keenum (who by the way suck) or draft a guy and hope he works out (which they did with zappe).
Sure give me McCoy or Keenum. Neither is good and yet they’re better than Hoyer. Bill was comfortable with Hoyer, which was the theme of this off-season.
 

Shelterdog

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How much did Hoyer make this year?
Like 1.8 million. One of the lowest backup numbers in the league because everyone knows he’s not very good. That’s the point -saying I want a good player not a bad player is pretty pointless if you don’t factor in cost
 

8slim

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Like 1.8 million. One of the lowest backup numbers in the league because everyone knows he’s not very good. That’s the point -saying I want a good player not a bad player is pretty pointless if you don’t factor in cost
So we’d need to spring $1.5-ish million more to not have the worst backup in the league? Seems reasonable.
 

BigSoxFan

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Ok great. Tell me where you got the extra four million in cap space.
Well run teams shouldn’t have to look underneath the couch cushions to fill such an important position. Henry, Jonnu, and Agholor combine for $38M cap hit this year. Belichick’s terrible FA decisions have completely hamstrung this team in the short term.
 

Cabin Mirror

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Well run teams shouldn’t have to look underneath the couch cushions to fill such an important position. Henry, Jonnu, and Agholor combine for $38M cap hit this year. Belichick’s terrible FA decisions have completely hamstrung this team in the short term.
Are we done with those contracts after this year?


Jonnu teased us a little at the beginning of game today.
 

Shelterdog

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Well run teams shouldn’t have to look underneath the couch cushions to fill such an important position. Henry, Jonnu, and Agholor combine for $38M cap hit this year. Belichick’s terrible FA decisions have completely hamstrung this team in the short term.
Not sure I do agree with this; lots of good teams don’t spend much money on the backup qb. The pats plan for twenty years has been to use a cheap rookie as the primary backup and every now and then they give hoyer a tiny bit

obv agree that the smith and aguolor contracts are bad. Every team has some bad contracts but those are especially unimpressive
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Like 1.8 million. One of the lowest backup numbers in the league because everyone knows he’s not very good. That’s the point -saying I want a good player not a bad player is pretty pointless if you don’t factor in cost
The Pats are probably investing less in the QB position than any other team.
 

Bleedred

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Mac Jones isn't very good this year. He's not terrible, but he's played below average football. In his defense, his skill players are below average (Rhomondre excluded) and his offensive line has been inconsistent. Yet, he has shown little poise under pressure, does not have the arm to make big throws or even 15-20 yard throws that require zip into small windows, and I'm starting to worry about his temperament, with all the recent histrionics.

I'm willing to give him another year and would love to add a very good to excellent free agent WR (no idea who might be available) to find out if he can become a good to very good QB, but he needs help, as his margin of error is small given his average skill set.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I’d say he’s been terrible.

#2 in completion rate
#20 in yards per game
#30 in TD
#31 in QBR (better than only Mayfield)
#25 in rating (better than Fields, R. Wilson, Wentz, Ryan, Mills, Mayfield, Pickett, Z. Wilson)

None of the guys he’s been better than / comparable to seem like locks to keep their jobs all that much longer either.
 

lexrageorge

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Well run teams shouldn’t have to look underneath the couch cushions to fill such an important position. Henry, Jonnu, and Agholor combine for $38M cap hit this year. Belichick’s terrible FA decisions have completely hamstrung this team in the short term.
Henry is playing about his typical production, and while overpaid for what he brings, it's not egregious for competent veteran starting caliber tight end (most TE's are awful). And his contract is very cuttable next season.

Judon was an excellent FA signing. Bourne for whatever reason is in the doghouse this season, but he's not occupying that much space.

Agholor is awful but also gone after this season. Jonnu Smith's contract is the only one that is truly bad.
 

8slim

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Today was particularly bad because he had time to throw and the Raiders pass D is terrible. If Mac couldn’t take advantage of that circumstance today it’s a bad, bad sign.
 

BigSoxFan

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Not sure I do agree with this; lots of good teams don’t spend much money on the backup qb. The pats plan for twenty years has been to use a cheap rookie as the primary backup and every now and then they give hoyer a tiny bit

obv agree that the smith and aguolor contracts are bad. Every team has some bad contracts but those are especially unimpressive
Comparing the plan at backup QB for when they had the GOAT vs. a young, unproven Mac seems kind of irrelevant. The whole dynamic has changed and the way we’ve always have done it may need to be re-evaluated. Ultimately, I don’t really care either way but if you can’t find a few extra million to make sure you’re good at the most important position in sports, you’re doing it wrong. My issues are more with the cap management of this team vs. the specific backup QB decision. Zappe ultimately gave this team exactly what we could have hoped for from an Andy Dalton type signing but that was pretty unexpected. Belichick, of all people, knows the value of a good backup QB. He lost a SB to one.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I was on the "start Mac at all costs" train until tonight. Mac was much more poised in the second half, but his behavior in the first half was atrocious and his play even worse. I'm still not sure it makes sense to start anyone else, but I can begin to see an argument for it.
 

BigSoxFan

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Henry is playing about his typical production, and while overpaid for what he brings, it's not egregious for competent veteran starting caliber tight end (most TE's are awful). And his contract is very cuttable next season.

Judon was an excellent FA signing. Bourne for whatever reason is in the doghouse this season, but he's not occupying that much space.

Agholor is awful but also gone after this season. Jonnu Smith's contract is the only one that is truly bad.
Huh? We’re talking about 2022 cap space. Agholor and Jonnu have completely clogged our cap this season so I don’t agree that Jonnu’s is the only bad contract. Agholor’s clearly sucked too. He has the 5th highest cap hit of all WRs or something like that. Clearly, we all agree that Judon was a great signing, best since Gilmore. Henry was also fine. Agholor and Jonnu were abject disasters that have materially impacted other areas. I’m happy as hell that we’re done with Agholor after a few more games. He’s absolute trash.
 

Cellar-Door

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Ok name them

edit: seriously take a look, backup qbs are so bad and cost so much. That’s why bb uses mid round rookies as much as possible
These are all the guys who signed for less guaranteed money than Hoyer last offseason and are probably better than him:
Kyle Allen
Brandon Allen
Joe Flacco
Nick Mullens
Chad Henne
Blaine Gabbert

A couple of those guys have slightly higher Base, or some incentives, but generally those are guys you could have without any real expenditure beyond Hoyer.
 

Ed Hillel

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The Pats are probably investing less in the QB position than any other team.
They invested the 15th pick in the draft and another 4th rounder to boot. Signing a shitty backup for 7 million would not have been a good solution. They’ve invested plenty.
I was on the "start Mac at all costs" train until tonight. Mac was much more poised in the second half, but his behavior in the first half was atrocious and his play even worse. I'm still not sure it makes sense to start anyone else, but I can begin to see an argument for it.
He was still terrible in the second half, as well. Even the one big play to a wide open WR was a broken neck Peyton wobbler.
 

Cellar-Door

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They invested the 15th pick in the draft and another 4th rounder to boot. Signing a shitty backup for 7 million would not have been a good solution. They’ve invested plenty.
I do agree they have invested draft capital, but as noted upthread, it doesn't take $7M to get a better QB than Hoyer, it doesn't even take more money at all. $7M is Geno Smith if he hits every single incentive ($3.5M base), legitimately excellent backups/spot starters like Tyrod Taylor ($5.5M) and Jacoby Brissett (4.65M) got less than that. Foles and Dalton got around $3M.

We didn't end up with Hoyer because we couldn't afford someone who would be better, we ended up with Hoyer because that's who Bill picked, for better or worse. I think most would feel that Mullens or Allen would give you a lot more backup upside for the same price, and that it might be worth it to spend $1M more for Foles.
 

Ed Hillel

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I do agree they have invested draft capital, but as noted upthread, it doesn't take $7M to get a better QB than Hoyer, it doesn't even take more money at all. $7M is Geno Smith if he hits every single incentive ($3.5M base), legitimately excellent backups/spot starters like Tyrod Taylor ($5.5M) and Jacoby Brissett (4.65M) got less than that. Foles and Dalton got around $3M.

We didn't end up with Hoyer because we couldn't afford someone who would be better, we ended up with Hoyer because that's who Bill picked, for better or worse. I think most would feel that Mullens or Allen would give you a lot more backup upside for the same price, and that it might be worth it to spend $1M more for Foles.
I get it, I just feel like once you draft Zappe, it makes sense to play the long term potential game over your limited ceiling spot starters. Those guys make more sense on teams where there is an established QB in place. Zappe did well as the backup anyway.
 

8slim

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I get it, I just feel like once you draft Zappe, it makes sense to play the long term potential game over your limited ceiling spot starters. Those guys make more sense on teams where there is an established QB in place. Zappe did well as the backup anyway.
Zappe only played because Hoyer got hurt.

To bring this full circle, I said I was pissed that Bill brought back Hoyer because it was part of a pattern this off-season where Bill defaulted to guys he was comfortable with. The roster and staff is deficient in part because of that approach.
 

rodderick

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I'd still likely give Mac 2023, this offensive coaching staff is that bad, but I'm not going into the next offseason under the assumption that he's our long term starter. If there are opportunities to get a better player through a trade or the draft, they better explore it.
 

lexrageorge

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For better or for worse the Pats fully committed themselves to Mac Jones as the starter for this season, so there was no need to sign a higher profile name to be the veteran backup. Retrospectively that may look like a mistake but Mac had a really good season for a rookie QB and was expected to be the starter. And given the obvious holes on the offense I'm not convinced I want the Pats to invest a lot of resources into a backup QB next season either.
 

Shelterdog

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Zappe only played because Hoyer got hurt.

To bring this full circle, I said I was pissed that Bill brought back Hoyer because it was part of a pattern this off-season where Bill defaulted to guys he was comfortable with. The roster and staff is deficient in part because of that approach.
You still haven’t come up with a solution for how you would have gotten the mystery player who would make this team better

edit: the team has a million problems on offense. Taking Brad hoyer who knows the system instead of a more expernsive colt mccoy is not in the top twenty
 

BaseballJones

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If BB’s plan was for Patricia/Judge to grow on the job learning how to run an offense, with the assumption being that Mac was capable of playing well in that scenario, then I wonder what BB’s evaluation of all this will be at the end. A couple of weeks ago he gave indications that he’d seen enough and that his conclusion was that it wasn’t working, but that it was too late in the season to really change things. That seemed to indicate that he’d make some changes in the off-season.

And that tells me that he still thinks Mac can do the job, with the proper offensive coaching. So I’m guessing he’s not going to evaluate this season from an offensive standpoint and think, nah, we’re good. Unfortunately for Mac, if they bring in O’Brien or whomever, it will be his third offensive coordinator in three years, which is kind of difficult for a young QB.

But that’s what I’d expect to see. New offensive coordinator, a (hopefully) much improved OL, and maybe one new receiver (hopefully a good one), and see how Mac does. If, after that, it all still sucks, then don’t exercise his fifth year option and begin the search for a new QB. Then either trade Mac and let Zappe or some veteran take the reins for a couple of years while they draft a new QB, or let Mac play his fourth year while looking for the next guy.

But honestly, with better offensive coaching and a much improved OL, I would expect Mac’s performance to be better, especially after another year of experience. But either way…. Next year is make or break for Mac.
 

BigJimEd

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Mac was very poor yesterday. Overall for the season, I think he's been similar to last season which is a disappointment. Still, haven't totally given up on him and I doubt there is a better option out the in the off season. If there's someone in the draft then sure but not sold on Brissett or similar level vet. Upgrade from Hoyer for sure though.




A couple of weeks ago he gave indications that he’d seen enough and that his conclusion was that it wasn’t working, but that it was too late in the season to really change things.
We got different meaning out of his comments. He specifically mentioned that he was happy with the process which I took to mean staff. That they needed more consistency. Said it was too late to go to wishbone or something like that menaing they weren't going to completely revamp the whole offense in December.
 
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Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Against one of the worst defenses in the entire league, in Game 14 of the season, with a full week to prepare and no travel, Mac went 13 for 31 for 112 yards.

That's indescribably awful. That's not because of coaching, or OL play, or poor WR play, although those things didn't help. That level of performance is on Mac, and it's not NFL level play.

I don't think next year is his make or break year. This year was. And he's broken.

They need to move on from him. He can't do the job.
 

BaseballJones

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You’re right SJH that this week’s performance can’t be described as anything but horrid, and you might be right that Mac is permanently broken. I’m not sure BB agrees with that though. We shall see.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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You’re right SJH that this week’s performance can’t be described as anything but horrid, and you might be right that Mac is permanently broken. I’m not sure BB agrees with that though. We shall see.
One thing I think BB keeps in mind is that nothing is more devastating to a franchise than a QB controversy. He learned that in CLE and quickly released Kosar because he knew playing Vinny with Kosar still on the sidelines would cause distractions and dissent even if Vinny was playing better.

When Brady took over from Bledsoe, BB gave that famous statement about Brady being the starter the rest of the season after Bledsoe came back to make sure there was no confusion, and then traded Bledsoe that offseason very quickly so as to put that issue to bed. And then of course there was his famous "Jesus Christ" utterance when a reporter suggested that Brady might have to compete with Jimmy G for the job when he returned from suspension.

So BB sticking with Mac for this year makes sense given his past actions. But I don't know if that means he thinks Mac is the Guy going forward. I certainly hope he doesn't, because Mac Jones is not an NFL-caliber level QB.
 

NDame616

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Bill has "an out" to stay with Mac next year.

Coaching staff was a disaster, bad OL, some contracts eating up a ton of cap space, etc. "We didn't do what we had to do to make him successful in 2022 but we will do much better in 2023"
 

Ralphwiggum

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I expect Mac will be the starter again next year because (a) I'm not sure there will be a clearly better option available to them in FA, (b) they are unlikely to have a clearly better prospect fall to them at their draft position, and (c) I think BB probably wants to give him one more year to see if he can progress. I think they should let Zappe compete for the job but I'm not sure they are going to, and I'm also not sure he's better than Mac and can win it. So I think all signs point to one more year (at least) of Mac as the starter.

But assuming that is what happens, for the first time in a very long time I'll have pretty much no hope that this can be a playoff caliber team that can beat other playoff teams. The last time I felt that way was when Bledsoe went down before we knew Brady was Brady, and even that only lasted like a game or so. Before that you'd probably have to go back to the early Bledsoe years when I knew he'd take some time to develop and it was going to take Parcells some time to right the ship. Shit I even thought Cam might be able to be decent enough for them to win with him. We've been spoiled, and now we are in QB purgatory with roughly half of the rest of the league, maybe more than half.

Maybe Mac figures something out in the offseason but man he was awful yesterday and overall is just pretty hard to watch. The line was fine yesterday, they got a great game out of Stevenson and the running game, and Mac could not do anything. I'll root for him as long as he's the starter for the Pats, but it's a shitty position to be in as a fan.
 

Toe Nash

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A couple weeks ago I watched Mike White come back from a 20-3 deficit to tie the game and thought "I have no confidence Mac would ever do that". The funny thing yesterday is that they did come back from a big deficit, except it was accomplished with almost no help from the QB. That's definitely a game where even slightly better QB play gets you a first down at the end or some more points earlier on.

I would think he might need a "reset" but he kind of got that earlier this year and it didn't seem to help so I don't know what you can do but hope for the best next year.
 

Shelterdog

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Maybe a 4th rounder. A 3rd if we swap picks. I think most teams see him as a backup at this point.
I'm as pro mac as anyone on the forum but I wonder if you could even get that for him. The problem is that he's going to be seen as petulant, kind of a bret favre without the arm talent. I'm sure every NFL organization will have some sympathy for is frustrations with Matty P, but Mac handled it really poorly (you can't tell your offensive coordinator to fuck off when you're a guy who is going to be at best competing for a starting spot.

Maybe the Raiders trade for him because McDaniels knows him? Maybe if Bill OBrien gets a HC job? But other than someone who knows Mac I'm not sure another team wants to pick up a primma donna to be their backup QB.

I am sort of out on Mac to but for perhaps a different reason; basically we thought we were getting a a smart tough competitive player who didn't have a great arm, and what we've seen this year is he's just kind of coming apart mentally, but in some plays but more importantly just kind of flipping out over the pressure, seemingly being in a pretty bad relationship with matty p, etc. To put on my grumpy old man had, he's too much of a spoiled gen z person who wants to run the offense his own way,etc rather than maximize the (bad) hand he's been dealt. I'm just not sure at this point whether he can mentally be a long term decent starting QB.
 
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rodderick

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Yesterday was the first time Mac's antics and whining bothered me. I thought on the first and goal at the 2 sequence especially his little hissy fits got the offense even more antsy and likely directly contributed to a penalty. I have no issue with passion and even outward displays of frustration, but I rather he save those for the sidelines and preferably for when he has actually accomplished something in this league. If you're part of the issue, just shut up.
 

8slim

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You still haven’t come up with a solution for how you would have gotten the mystery player who would make this team better

edit: the team has a million problems on offense. Taking Brad hoyer who knows the system instead of a more expernsive colt mccoy is not in the top twenty
Pay him? We're not talking about a cap-crippling signing. We keep bringing Jamie Collins back for goodness sake, I'm sure we could finagle things to have a barely competent backup QB in the fold.
 

Shelterdog

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Pay him? We're not talking about a cap-crippling signing. We keep bringing Jamie Collins back for goodness sake, I'm sure we could finagle things to have a barely competent backup QB in the fold.
Collin's salary is 278k. The cap is a real constraint on what a team can do.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Mac did miss some throws yesterday but between the ankle injury, the OC being a former DC with no play calling background, not having a real QB coach or OL coach, I give Mac a pass for this year. If this was the Jets, the board would be reveling in how stupid the organization is for having coaches in roles they are ill-suited for.

Look at the WR snaps from yesterday:

  • Tyquan Thornton (60)
  • Nelson Agholor (54)
  • Jakobi Meyers (40)
  • Kendrick Bourne (11)
That is a bottom five group and they don't even have TEs to pick up the slack for pass catchers. Yes, Parker was out but is he materially better than anyone but Agholor? Meyers is a free agent therefore the only WRs signed for next season who received meaningful snaps are Thornton, Parker, and Bourne. The OL held up yesterday, better than I would have thought, but that will need pieces as well as Andrews ages out. Right now, you are only set at G. Trent Brown is not dependable and RT needs to be addressed. Money and draft capital need to be plowed into the offense this offseason.

This is more of a Patriots offense post at this point but I don't view Mac as an issue just yet. I'd like to see him surrounded with competent coaching and an infusion of league average talent. After next season, when the offense is hopefully stabilized, then you can make the call on him.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yesterday was the first time Mac's antics and whining bothered me. I thought on the first and goal at the 2 sequence especially his little hissy fits got the offense even more antsy and likely directly contributed to a penalty. I have no issue with passion and even outward displays of frustration, but I rather he save those for the sidelines and preferably for when he has actually accomplished something in this league. If you're part of the issue, just shut up.
Do we know which genius called a time out as he was throwing a touchdown pass? I'd have no beef with him yelling at that guy.

edit: I didn't watch/read much post-game, so I don't know who it was
 

cornwalls@6

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Against one of the worst defenses in the entire league, in Game 14 of the season, with a full week to prepare and no travel, Mac went 13 for 31 for 112 yards.

That's indescribably awful. That's not because of coaching, or OL play, or poor WR play, although those things didn't help. That level of performance is on Mac, and it's not NFL level play.

I don't think next year is his make or break year. This year was. And he's broken.

They need to move on from him. He can't do the job.
I agree. His coaching and OL play has been bad, for sure. But I just don’t think he has enough intangibles to make up for his completely pedestrian arm talent, and worse than pedestrian athleticism. And I’m also starting to really question his poise and maturity. I sense most don’t agree with this, but I’d like see them give the last 3 starts to Zappe. Not because I think they’ll catch lightening in a bottle and go on playoff run. But I’d to see what has, with extended playing time and practice reps, and if he can part of the plan for the position next year. Because I no longer think Mac should be.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Do we know which genius called a time out as he was throwing a touchdown pass? I'd have no beef with him yelling at that guy.

edit: I didn't watch/read much post-game, so I don't know who it was
Bill said postgame that he called it.

Q: On the red zone play, where you ran down the sideline to call a timeout. What did you see that you didn't like that lead you to call the timeout?
Coach Belichick:
"Yeah, we really didn't have the play right."

Q: Is that a situation where the result didn't match necessarily the play?
Coach Belichick:
"No. The whistle blew before the play was run. We didn't have the play right, so I took a timeout so that we did it right."