The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread
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My post was shitty. What I was trying to say is that the Patriots do not draw defensive penalties at all. At least I don't remember them. Like, never. Again, it could be confirmation bias but maybe we get a stray offside here or there but never the kind that is the result of the defense having to be concerned about the passing game -- like defensive holding, contact, PI. Heck I can't even remember a hands to the face.
Edit: Or what @tims4wins said!
There was the roughing on the pick six at the Jets, and I remember 1 or 2 long ish PI calls in a recent home win (Indy?). But yeah they feel few and far between.
Jsut re-reading your post @DennyDoyle'sBoil - now I see the key word "draw". Sorry, since I am at work now I sometimes skim. But wouldn't drawing defensive penalties be the result of having truly good players that the opposing defenses needed to hold / grab etc. in order to slow them down? I do not think the last few editions of the Patriots have had any players like that.
This is all my untrained eye, but when I get arm envy watching other QBs is on quick, often short throws. When Mac has a second to set and get his mechanics smooth, he throws a good ball. But often when he’s moving or rushed or on just little screens or outs, his ball always seems arced and slow and wobbly. Not that McCoy throws 30 yard seams rolling out. But his arm and many other’s just look stronger and more accurate with tighter spirals than Mac has.
Even when Brady supposedly had a “weak” arm and couldn’t throw deep, he would still zip balls to receivers. Can’t remember who, but I do recall a WR new to the Patriots commenting on how hard the ball comes out of Brady’s hand on short throws.
Yeah, I think it could be as simple as that. I think everything works in tandem and when your offense is good and you're doing a good job at deception -- in runs and passes -- that defenders have too much to think about and you can get open and draw penalties better. And we don't do that. So it's probably a whole offense kind of thing rather than something you can attribute to any one player. Defensive penalties are so great because most of them are an automatic first down and so when you get a couple in a game it makes such a difference.
Yes. OL not blocking well, so the DL doesn't need an extra edge and our rushers don't get into the secondary that often. WR not getting open because they're not that good (or our best WR are hurt). Even if they get open, either Mac is too hurried to hit them, or they drop the ball. So nothing to worry about; therefore fewer defensive penalties. Rinse, repeat.
I don't want to relitigate Brady, but I don't think any concerns (fair or not) about him throwing the deep ball ever had anything to do with his arm strength. I think Brady was the best intermediate range passer there ever was, precisely because of the combination of arm strength and accuracy he had on those routes. I think he had an intermediate game that seemed comparable to a normal QB's short game. To the extent I ever questioned him about the deep ball, it was never about whether his arm was strong enough to get the ball deep.
Anyway, Brady focused a ton on his mechanics. Mac needs to do the same, even moreso than Brady did, because he doesn't have anyhere near the arm of Brady. He cannot afford to pay what bad mechanics costs him. He has shown these past couple of games that he can get the ball downfield with accuracy (not like Brady of course) when he has the time and his mechanics are right.
Evan Lazar's article (someone posted the tweet linking to it above) was pretty interesting.
https://www.patriots.com/news/after-further-review-the-patriots-offense-might-ve-found-a-formula-vs-cardinals
I'm not impressed by the screen game, but maybe it is the best they can do with the line they have. Mac's best throws this year have been downfield, but his protection has been so bad that they cannot just let him air it out.
I do think it made a difference having all of that speed out there on the field. Not just Marcus Jones, but also Strong and Thornton. Thornton's numbers looked lousy (4 catches, 28 yards, long of 12), but he seems to have the quickness to gain a few yards on a screen even when the defense is there.
WHile I agree his best throws have been downfield, I think some of that is a product of.. he's only taking getting downfield throws now when the protection is great and the guy is wide open. They threw deep a lot more early in the year when the line played better and Mac struggled badly.
The Patriots are -23 in net penalties this season--they've had 80 enforced against them and 57 against the opponents. The have committed the 11th most penalties (Denver has committed 97) but they have been the beneficiary of the lowest amount in the league.
I can't find the breakdown regarding units. That said the 5 teams that have drawn the least number of penalties is: NE, Chicago, Miami, Baltimore, and Indianapolis.
Where it really adds up is net yards lost. They Patriots are at -214, the worst in the league. That's 27% (!!!!!!!) higher (lower???) than the Bears, who are #2 at -168. That's crazy. Even though these yards are on both sides of the ball, our offense is still having to overcome a lot--it could be putting them in longer down and distance situations and it's extending opponent's drives, meaning they're giving up more points, leading our offense to have less margin for error.
2021: +3 net penalties
2020: +20
2019: +15
SIte: NFL Penalties - 2022 League Penalty Stats - View by Total - NFL Penalty Stats Tracker - Data From 2009-2022
15 penalties for 109 yards by Wynn and Brown.
We also have a big home/road split. We are tied for 5th FEWEST penalties committed at home, but tied for 4th MOST committed on the road.
Holding is a big part. 8th in holding yards lost, but also we get the 2nd lowest yards in holds by our opponents. About 90 of the 210 yard differential is in Holding.
Over large samples around 45% of all penalties are committed by offensive linemen. So I guess when you go from having one of the best OL in the league on a consistent basis to a total dumpster fire, this is what happens.
It is a little surprising that the Patriots don't force more opposition OL penalties, however, given the strength of our pass rush. That could be a blitz tendency thing I suppose.
It is a little surprising that the Patriots don't force more opposition OL penalties, however, given the strength of our pass rush. That could be a blitz tendency thing I suppose.
Football reference actually has the stat I was looking for. Patriots are last in the league in first downs drawn by penalty. Overall they are 28th in first downs per game.
I am convinced by the discussion above that is not really a Mac stat but more of a whole-offense stat. It does seem pretty telling to me about the level of dynamism of our offense. But then we really didn't need the stat to tell us that.
We have an offense that does not make very much happen. Most series seem to go to third down. We don't get many easy first downs. We don't generally overcome offensive penalties. Things get tough in the red zone.
Offensive penalties are interesting to me. For the Patriots they are usually drive enders. I guess for most teams they are usually drive enders, but when watching the good teams like the Eagles or the Chiefs, you really feel as though they still have the whole play book at 2d and 15. And I think some offensive penalties can actually be an indicator that the team is active and trying to make things happen. They are never good. But illegal downfield is different from a false start. But for our team a big disparity is a double whammy. We don't get easy first downs and we don't overcome offensive penalties.
I am convinced by the discussion above that is not really a Mac stat but more of a whole-offense stat. It does seem pretty telling to me about the level of dynamism of our offense. But then we really didn't need the stat to tell us that.
We have an offense that does not make very much happen. Most series seem to go to third down. We don't get many easy first downs. We don't generally overcome offensive penalties. Things get tough in the red zone.
Offensive penalties are interesting to me. For the Patriots they are usually drive enders. I guess for most teams they are usually drive enders, but when watching the good teams like the Eagles or the Chiefs, you really feel as though they still have the whole play book at 2d and 15. And I think some offensive penalties can actually be an indicator that the team is active and trying to make things happen. They are never good. But illegal downfield is different from a false start. But for our team a big disparity is a double whammy. We don't get easy first downs and we don't overcome offensive penalties.
I'm not sure if this is the best stat forum for this, but it's really hard to get a feel for the progress of Mac and the skills of MP as a playcaller because of how few plays they run.
Per Warren Sharp, as of Dec 6 (I'm not sure where else to get these stats), the Patriots are No. 29 in percentage of early downs that gain a first down (20.5%) and No. 30 in distance to go on third down (7.8 yards). Because they have so far to go, they are 28th in third down conversion percentage (35.58%) and they've run the 26th most plays in the league (769). That's obviously a noisy stat because they're tied with Miami, but Miami gets a lot of chunk plays while NE obviously doesn't - they're in the bottom third of 20 yard plays, with the likes of Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, and Denver.
I think we're all familiar with the early down penalties that force this team to start a possession from a deficit, or third down penalties that kill momentum, or inopportune sacks, or run plays that lose yardage, or drops from our expensive free agents. Rare are the drives when this offense has momentum, because it's typically killed before they get a chance to build it up.
Some of that has to do with coaching - if a lack of penalties is the sign of a well-coached team, then the opposite also must be true - and there are the playcalls that truly make you scratch your head, like the ridiculous red zone double reverse from a few weeks ago that lost ten yards. But it does feel like the OL penalties, sacks allowed, tackles for a loss, etc. make it extremely difficult to understand how Mac and MP the playcaller (not OL coach) would fare if the line were simply competent.
I'm no Patricia guy, but I think part of it is due to the fact that I watch the Patriots the most and Kyle Shanahan would likely drive me up a wall if I watched the Niners all the time. I just kinda wonder if anyone could do well with this mismatch of overall offensive talent. The line can't hold up well enough to attack deep or even in the intermediary, so safeties can play closer to the line. We have great RBs, but our TEs can't block very well, so more defenders in the box make it harder to run (bless Rhamondre). We can lament Henry whiffing on block after block, but I'm not sure what else Mac or MP are supposed to do - it's just a limitation of Hunter Henry the player and the limitations of Jonnu are worse. The options on offense seem very, very limited and I can't help but think that moderate improvements at tackle would result in significant improvements across the offense, particularly for Mac.
Per Warren Sharp, as of Dec 6 (I'm not sure where else to get these stats), the Patriots are No. 29 in percentage of early downs that gain a first down (20.5%) and No. 30 in distance to go on third down (7.8 yards). Because they have so far to go, they are 28th in third down conversion percentage (35.58%) and they've run the 26th most plays in the league (769). That's obviously a noisy stat because they're tied with Miami, but Miami gets a lot of chunk plays while NE obviously doesn't - they're in the bottom third of 20 yard plays, with the likes of Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, and Denver.
I think we're all familiar with the early down penalties that force this team to start a possession from a deficit, or third down penalties that kill momentum, or inopportune sacks, or run plays that lose yardage, or drops from our expensive free agents. Rare are the drives when this offense has momentum, because it's typically killed before they get a chance to build it up.
Some of that has to do with coaching - if a lack of penalties is the sign of a well-coached team, then the opposite also must be true - and there are the playcalls that truly make you scratch your head, like the ridiculous red zone double reverse from a few weeks ago that lost ten yards. But it does feel like the OL penalties, sacks allowed, tackles for a loss, etc. make it extremely difficult to understand how Mac and MP the playcaller (not OL coach) would fare if the line were simply competent.
I'm no Patricia guy, but I think part of it is due to the fact that I watch the Patriots the most and Kyle Shanahan would likely drive me up a wall if I watched the Niners all the time. I just kinda wonder if anyone could do well with this mismatch of overall offensive talent. The line can't hold up well enough to attack deep or even in the intermediary, so safeties can play closer to the line. We have great RBs, but our TEs can't block very well, so more defenders in the box make it harder to run (bless Rhamondre). We can lament Henry whiffing on block after block, but I'm not sure what else Mac or MP are supposed to do - it's just a limitation of Hunter Henry the player and the limitations of Jonnu are worse. The options on offense seem very, very limited and I can't help but think that moderate improvements at tackle would result in significant improvements across the offense, particularly for Mac.
Want to hear a weird stat? We actually don't have many third down plays/game--only 12.5/game and 163 total--that's 22nd in the league.
And something that sucks about this--the Patriots have the best average starting field position in the NFL. So it starts promising...
The Pats don't draw opposition holding calls because the refs simply do not call when Judon and Uche are held. Every single game Judon is held on nearly every play and the ref will not throw the flags. Once you look for it it's impossible to miss.
Holding calls are very often reputation calls. Once the word is out that Judon won't draw a holding call, refs become increasingly reluctant to throw a flag for holding on the OL.
It's hard to know how to square that with being 28th in the league in first downs, though. If we're not getting them on first and second down, and we don't have many third downs, what can that mean? That we just don't get many series? It could mean that we turnover the ball a lot on first and second down but I don't think that should make an appreciable difference.
Edit: Ahh, field position could be a big factor.
They are 7th in # of drives but 27th in # of plays. Need to get 1st downs to get more plays. 28th in 1st downs.
Best starting field position. 29th in plays per drive. 26th in yds per drive and 6th most drives ending in an offensive turnover.
As mentioned they are 18th in YPP.
So turnovers, penalties and 3rd down conversion are all factors.
Turnovers have at least improved though.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2022/index.htm
This is kind of where I'm at. I wind up defending Patricia a lot, not because I'm pro-Patricia really but because I'm agnostic and because I can see how all the different issues with the O make it difficult to design something functional.
I think it also means when things are going well for the offense, it's usually via chunk plays rather than repeatedly converting first downs. If you get a 25-yarder on 2nd down, you don't face a third down. I wouldn't characterize the offense as "explosive," but it's closer to explosive than consistent.
This isn’t the right thread for this but I am not sure where to put it….
Does anyone follow Matt Chatham on Twitter? Has he always been such a shill? Literally every post is leaning into some sort of victim hood and acting like everything is completely fine with the Patriots. Any sort of suggestion otherwise is just being negative
Does anyone follow Matt Chatham on Twitter? Has he always been such a shill? Literally every post is leaning into some sort of victim hood and acting like everything is completely fine with the Patriots. Any sort of suggestion otherwise is just being negative
I follow Chatham.
He's been fed up with all the over the top hot takes lately and might be over correcting some.
I like him as a nice counter to most of the Boston media that just wants to push a narrative.
He does criticize some. Against Buffalo talked about line problems and losing edge at critical junctions against Allen.
He's been fed up with all the over the top hot takes lately and might be over correcting some.
I like him as a nice counter to most of the Boston media that just wants to push a narrative.
He does criticize some. Against Buffalo talked about line problems and losing edge at critical junctions against Allen.
He points out its silly to think its all play-calling or Patricia being stupid. He points out that offensive line turnover and injuries, coupled with Harris being out is a big deal, and believes that you can win with a strong defense, minimizing turnovers, and a good running game. I think he calls that last part a recipe for winning in December. His overall take seems to be that most of the people criticizing the team have no clue what they are saying. He seems to apportion blame based on the play or the game etc, but I would hardly call him a shill.
Think about it before the season we thought the team would be 10-7 or 9-8. Even when Jones struggled and we had Hoyer and Zappe in there people were acting like this was the dynasty years. The team is 7-6 and in the hunt despite offensive line struggles, injuries to key players, having 3 QBs start games, and a new offensive staff and changes to the system. To me last year it seemed they realized they could not beat teams like the Bills (they had hit a ceiling) with a low scoring low risk offense even if they had a decent or good D. So they tried to push the ball down the field more and put more of the game on Jones shoulders. For a variety of reasons that did not work, so now they are back to taking less risk, getting the ball out quick, and trying to win with last years formula. We are playing meaningful football and it is almost Christmas. While frustrating and then some to me (this season), people are wildly unrealistic when it comes to this year's team.
While not a popular take, I think this is the right one. This team is clearly not as talented as the best teams on offense but their D is legit. While everyone - including Mac apparently (leaving his role aside) - wants a more dynamic offense but they simply don't have the personnel for that so they are going with what has worked thus far.
This doesn't mean the roster construction or choice of coordinators is above reproach - its pretty clear BB didn't get the best outcomes here. I would be surprised, however, if there are many other staffs that could get 7-6 out of this roster. Maybe there are but in surveying the NFL coachscape, it feels like a pretty rarified group.
Chatham is also really good at using his knowledge of playing in the NFL to talk about issues while never using the “I played the game” fallacy to shut people down. He’s really good at explaining in depth his opinions.
So it will get a lost a bit in the Jakobi debacle.....
Mac was AWFUL today, despite generally good blocking he had maybe his worst game of the year. Didn't turn it over, which was the only positive, but badly missed a bunch of throws, missed easy reads, and had happy feet all night.
Mac was AWFUL today, despite generally good blocking he had maybe his worst game of the year. Didn't turn it over, which was the only positive, but badly missed a bunch of throws, missed easy reads, and had happy feet all night.
I think today was pretty strong evidence Mac is a major problem with this team. Had time, fantastic OL and running, a good mix of play calling, and he was just abysmal. He’s either not good enough or broken, but either way I think it's time to cut bait in 2023.
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Is there an average/above average vet that we can plug in for the next 3-4 or so years that’s reliable and maybe available next year?
I do wonder if a solid vet at QB, combined with a real #1 WR, and 1-2 upgrades along the OL is enough to make this team competitive next season. And, of course, an actual OC.
I see what BB is trying to build, I’m just not sure if this QB, along with not having a true #1 WR, and a somewhat leaky OL is where it needs to be. Shore that up and he has a truly competitive squad with the defense and running game.
We need a true #1 WR that’ll keep defenses on their heels a bit along with a QB that can actually let this hypothetical #1 WR make them pay if they zero in on the run.
I do wonder if a solid vet at QB, combined with a real #1 WR, and 1-2 upgrades along the OL is enough to make this team competitive next season. And, of course, an actual OC.
I see what BB is trying to build, I’m just not sure if this QB, along with not having a true #1 WR, and a somewhat leaky OL is where it needs to be. Shore that up and he has a truly competitive squad with the defense and running game.
We need a true #1 WR that’ll keep defenses on their heels a bit along with a QB that can actually let this hypothetical #1 WR make them pay if they zero in on the run.
Mac was shit.
At this point, its just a question of how to move forward. He's almost certainly not the answer but signing some mediocre veteran QB for 15-20mm per year in the offseason doesn't sound like a great alternative.
I think you just build your surrounding talent in FA and then go into the draft with a very open mind about BPA at another position of need versus QB.
At this point, its just a question of how to move forward. He's almost certainly not the answer but signing some mediocre veteran QB for 15-20mm per year in the offseason doesn't sound like a great alternative.
I think you just build your surrounding talent in FA and then go into the draft with a very open mind about BPA at another position of need versus QB.
Honestly, I thought Zappe showed real potential in limited action, so I’d draft another QB in the first 3 rounds somewhere and let them compete. Mac can go to some reclamation team for a 5th. It’s possible he could succeed with a reset somewhere, stranger things have happened,
Mac is broken. I think you give him an offseason (and hopefully an improved offense) to try to get get fixed, and give him a opportunity to win the job in camp next year. Unless there is an opportunity to add a QB who will make a real difference.
I don;t think bringing in a JAG at $15 M to hopefully go .500 is the solution to anything.
I think the CHI game made clear that Zappe probably has even more physical limitations than Mac.
I think it's unlikely they can draft a real replacement this year, so I'd lean towards building the talent around him and bring in someone like Brissett to compete for the job, an inexpensive vet who has a more diverse skillset.
I'd be fine with just playing Zappe the rest of the year. I'm not sure how much promise he really has but I think we'd get more useful information about him in those three games than we would about Mac.
I don't think you can take too much from that game, particularly given the conditions that night. He seems to have some pretty good pocket awareness and read progression, which I'd argue is the most important skill for an NFL QB. It's not going to get you to elite, but it's going to get you over the hump of being a playable NFL QB on a weekly basis. I do still think you draft another QB as well.
It's a tough call. That's a pretty rough gauntlet on which to judge a rookie QB and risk shattering his confidence, but maybe that's what you need to do in the modern NFL. Throw them to the fire immediately and see what happens.
Mac was lousy today against a terrible D and in the least hostile road environment imaginable.
I’d really like to see him get to work with an actual OC and QB coach again before we totally write him off. But we should at the very least bring in a vet this offseason who could plausibly start. And that doesn’t mean Brian freakin’ Hoyer.
I’d really like to see him get to work with an actual OC and QB coach again before we totally write him off. But we should at the very least bring in a vet this offseason who could plausibly start. And that doesn’t mean Brian freakin’ Hoyer.
They're currently .500 with someone much worse than a JAG. I think that’s why a JAG and a stud WR is what you really need if the defense and RB corp remain as good (or maybe slightly better) next season.
This made me laugh. How fucking pissed would everyone be if they named Hoyer the starter next year? LOL.
Finding a franchise QB is hard. Look at the Dolphins. They have been going through QBs forever to find a good one. Even picking first is no guarantee, see Bucs and Winston.
The Globe had a few stories this past summer highlighting all of his off season work with coaches and nutrionists. He was ready to take the next step! Apparently he was not.
I’m still pissed that Bill brought Hoyer back this season. He sucks. Really sucks. If Bill wanted him around to coach he should have convinced him to be an actual coach. That he thought Hoyer could be a functional backup QB is another mark against his decision making this year.
There’s no point in playing Zappe for the rest of this year because todays game ensured that they’re not making the playoffs anyway. I don’t think Mac is any good but since the season is shot you might as well get one last look at him and then move on for next year assuming he doesn’t magically turn into Dan Marino.
It would be a horrible idea, although not as bad as trotting Mac back out there. Today, -19.6 completion percentage above expectation. Very little pressure all day. And capping it off with an attitude, mouthing off at coaches. Can’t really believe what has happened with the franchise.
Let Mac and Zappe battle it out in training camp, but that's about all you can do. We can talk about coaching problems (they are huge) and every fan's problem, "weaponzzz," but right now there's a checkbox of "deserves a second contract: Yes [ ] No [ X ]," and that's all that matters.
