The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

[simplyeric]

Seems like a question of how much can a player increase those strength attributes, based on their starting point.
a ‘slow’ player is never going to become a ‘fast’ one. But he can probably gain a little bit of speed.
same with footwork, throwing strength, etc. those things can improve somewhat, but a player isn’t going to go from noodle to dragon.
it’s also somewhat age dependent, so we’re talking about younger players here, not so much vets.

So someone like Mac…he’s not really in his physical prime yet. He could gain some marginal increase in foot speed, throwing strength, stuff like that. But a little bit here and there could have a compounding effect on his play, in a very good way.

@rodderick you posted while I was typing, but yeah, things aren’t always as black and white as we try to make them.

 

[rodderick]

Seems like a question of how much can a player increase those strength attributes, based on their starting point.
a ‘slow’ player is never going to become a ‘fast’ one. But he can probably gain a little bit of speed.
same with footwork, throwing strength, etc. those things can improve somewhat, but a player isn’t going to go from noodle to dragon.
it’s also somewhat age dependent, so we’re talking about younger players here, not so much vets.

So someone like Mac…he’s not really in his physical prime yet. He could gain some marginal increase in foot speed, throwing strength, stuff like that. But a little bit here and there could have a compounding effect on his play, in a very good way.

Absolutely. I even think he's got better mobility than the overall consensus seems to indicate. Mac has enough tools to potentially be a top tier NFL QB, I just think the path for him to get there is narrower than that of a player like Trevor Lawrence. Then again, I also thought Lamar Jackson was really talented in very different ways but had a similarly narrow path to be an elite NFL QB and he got there.

 

[BaseballJones]

Mac currently ranks...

#8 in completion percentage
#15 in pass yards a game
#21 in pass TD
#24 in pass TD percentage
#19 in pass INT (min 150 att)
#17 in pass INT percentage
#21 in passer rating
#21 in Y/A
#22 in AY/A
#15 in first downs

Put that all together and you get a guy who is just below middle of the pack (so upper portion of the bottom half of the league) as a passer so far (in terms of a starting QB).

He's done that with what has been a pretty bad offensive line (it's improving though!) and not the best set of weapons in the league.

If he can finish the year in the upper half of all starting QBs as a rookie, and the Pats are in playoff contention at the end, that's a wildly successful rookie season for a QB.

As for projected growth... I mean, any talk that he is already near his ceiling is obvious nonsense. He can improve physically a TON. And some day they may surround him with better offensive players, which will automatically help. Mentally he seems sharp but more experience will clearly help that part too.

 

[joe dokes]

Mac currently ranks...

#8 in completion percentage
#15 in pass yards a game
#21 in pass TD
#24 in pass TD percentage
#19 in pass INT (min 150 att)
#17 in pass INT percentage
#21 in passer rating
#21 in Y/A
#22 in AY/A
#15 in first downs

Put that all together and you get a guy who is just below middle of the pack (so upper portion of the bottom half of the league) as a passer so far (in terms of a starting QB).

Many people (well, me anyway) had Newton's ceiling as "middle of the pack," which would have been a substantial improvement over last year, which is why I thought that he was going to get the chance to do just that (improve to "middle of the pack"). I doubt "middle of the pack" is Jones's ceiling. (And by implication, it seems that BB and McD didn't think Newton could actually improve to that level).

I see a parallel between Red Sox 2020/21 pitching and Patriots 2020/21 QB play. Plenty of room for drastic improvement over the replacement-level predecessor but that still leave both as middle of the pack, but middle of the pack is enough for the team to be significantly more competetive than the year before, given the rest of the team.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

Mac currently ranks...

#8 in completion percentage
#15 in pass yards a game
#21 in pass TD
#24 in pass TD percentage
#19 in pass INT (min 150 att)
#17 in pass INT percentage
#21 in passer rating
#21 in Y/A
#22 in AY/A
#15 in first downs

Put that all together and you get a guy who is just below middle of the pack (so upper portion of the bottom half of the league) as a passer so far (in terms of a starting QB).

He's done that with what has been a pretty bad offensive line (it's improving though!) and not the best set of weapons in the league.

If he can finish the year in the upper half of all starting QBs as a rookie, and the Pats are in playoff contention at the end, that's a wildly successful rookie season for a QB.

As for projected growth... I mean, any talk that he is already near his ceiling is obvious nonsense. He can improve physically a TON. And some day they may surround him with better offensive players, which will automatically help. Mentally he seems sharp but more experience will clearly help that part too.

Would love to see first 4 games vs last 4 games. He played so bad the first 4 games that I think his numbers are a bit suppressed, he's been excellent since.

 

[Average Game James]

Would love to see first 4 games vs last 4 games. He played so bad the first 4 games that I think his numbers are a bit suppressed, he's been excellent since.

I know there are mixed opinions of PFF here, but Mac is their highest graded QB since week 5.

 

[BaseballJones]

I don't know how he ranks compared the the rest of the league, but here's his first four vs last four games:

First four: 112-160 (70.0%), 1,012 yds, 6.3 y/a, 5.7 ay/a, 4 td, 4 int, 84.7 rating, Pats 1-3, averaging 17.8 ppg
Last four: 80-122 (65.6%), 984 yds, 8.1 y/a, 8.2 ay/a, 5 td, 2 int, 97.2 rating, Pats 3-1, averaging 33.8 ppg*

So yeah, in many respects, a LOT better these last four games.


*Even if you remove the second Jets game entirely, the Pats are averaging 27.0 ppg.

 

[Big McCorkle]

Just to comment on something, it's not as though Jones needs to increase his footspeed. It's more than fair to take his pro-day 40 time with a grain of salt, but it really wasn't bad, and he's shown good ability to move around in the pocket and some credibility as a scrambler when needed. You're not going to be calling QB Draws with him, but he's not close to Brady in terms of looking like a baby deer when he's running. I honestly think the team should implement a read option or two into the playbook; the opposing defense is absolutely not going to see it coming, and Jones is... mobile enough in a straight line... that he could rip off a big run into an open field with it once in a blue moon.

But still, it's pretty clear there's a lot of easy room for improvement physically. I mean, just... look at his physique. It's not exactly a lean, mean, fighting machine. More time with NFL weight training and nutritionists should do a lot.

 

[bakahump]

"Nutritionists"

hehehehee

 

[djbayko]

I don't get why you guys are hell bent on ignoring the the term "meaningfully" on my posts. You can improve on every area of your game as a player, I just can't recall many examples of a player turning a physical weakness into a strength at the NFL level. Brady was drafted by the Expos as a catcher, the arm talent was always there. If scouts thought it wasn't good enough and if people thought he had a noodle arm in the NFL because he threw short in his first years in the league, that's another story altogether.

You can go from "bad" to "okay" and you can go from "good" to "great", I don't think you can go from "bad" to "good". If Mac really works on his arm and mechanics he'll have Kirk Cousins/Matt Ryan arm strength, which is more than enough to succeed in the league, but he's being compared to guys who are coming out with some of the best arms in football already, hence the "ceiling" talk (which I already posited always tends to ignore the mental aspect of the game and just assume it'll come naturally with experience, which is bullshit).

FWIW, I was not ignoring the term "meaningfully" when I replied. It just wasn't/isn't well defined. In my book, you can make meaningful improvement. Tom Brady's improvement is definitely meaningful. It has a significant impact on his and the team's capabilities.

 

[Marciano490]

Surprised not to see this: Montana wishes 49ers took Mac over Lance.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/joe-montana-wishes-49-ers-drafted-a-different-rookie-qb-instead-of-trey-lance-175603324.html

 

[slamminsammya]

Beating a dead horse here, but it's a weird take to say the guy has maxed out his ability and then cite his lack of risk taking as the main problem. As if deciding where to throw the ball and which risks to take is an immutable trait fully formed for a QB at 23 years old, like hand size or height.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Beating a dead horse here, but it's a weird take to say the guy has maxed out his ability and then cite his lack of risk taking as the main problem. As if deciding where to throw the ball and which risks to take is an immutable trait fully formed for a QB at 23 years old, like hand size or height.

You're beating two horses.

The lack of risk taking was a problem, but it no longer is. Nobody probably knows how much of that was a short leash from McDaniels anyway. Either way, they're using the whole field now.

That's a separate issue from Mac having fringe velocity and the question around how high his arm ceiling is.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I think JT O’Sullivan and Kurt Warner covered his risk taking well - sometimes Mac played too fast and didn’t wait for something to open up. He is now. That bomb to Agholor vs taking an open 5-8 yard check down last game comes to mind. Someone else noted that too. Maybe Lazar? Not sure if it was McDaniels holding him back or himself wanting to play fast. Doesn’t really matter either way though as Mac has adjusted. He is also getting much better placement the last few games on his deep ball vs the first 4-5. He is being more patient for things to open up. He improves the mechanics and gets in better shape and I think he’s at least comfortably in the middle tier of starters. Well probably anyway. I still think he could use a WR upgrade but that likely doesn’t happen because of the roster situation and the cap until 2023 (unless they draft someone who immediately contributes which is rare).

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think JT O’Sullivan and Kurt Warner covered his risk taking well - sometimes Mac played too fast and didn’t wait for something to open up. He is now. That bomb to Agholor vs taking an open 5-8 yard check down last game comes to mind. Someone else noted that too. Maybe Lazar? Not sure if it was McDaniels holding him back or himself wanting to play fast. Doesn’t really matter either way though as Mac has adjusted. He is also getting much better placement the last few games on his deep ball vs the first 4-5. He is being more patient for things to open up. He improves the mechanics and gets in better shape and I think he’s at least comfortably in the middle tier of starters. Well probably anyway. I still think he could use a WR upgrade but that likely doesn’t happen because of the roster situation and the cap until 2023 (unless they draft someone who immediately contributes which is rare).

He and Agholor are not always on the same page, also. Bedard talked about a play last week where Agholor was open deep but he ran a different route than Mac threw.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think yesterday was Mac's worst game and he is on a little bit of a downward trend over the last few weeks. Dallas and then Jets were his best games, Chargers and Panthers were a step back.

Against the Chargers, Mac was very good early and late but had a long unproductive stretch in the middle 2 quarters (he went 4-21) and the Pats left points on the table. A lot of the commentary was that Mac was "sped up" and not allowing time for some plays to devleop.

Against the Panthers, the Pats offense had trouble even getting the ball snapped: 3 false starts, 3 delay of game penalties. Some of that has to be on Mac. The sack/fumble happened because Henry chipped the rusher and then nobody picked him up. Has to be a blown assignment by Henry, Wynn, or both. Mac was oblivious and might have held it too long. Later, Mac threw a bad interception. He made a few isolated good plays. In the 41 yard screen to Rhamondre, the yards were all gained courtesy of Stevenson's legs, but that pass was by no means an easy one to throw and Mac dropped it right in there. His one downfield pass to Bolden was another nice pass (and catch). I think the TD to Henry reflected some improvement - Mac has tended to have some passes sail on him in the red zone, and the Henry TD reminded me a bit of Brady firing those passes low (though Mac doesn;t fire them as hard as Brady to be sure). He threw a couple of incompletions that were almost just deliberate throaways on the FG drive, reminiscent of Brady in his last year here.

I wonder if we are getting to "rookie wall" or if defenses are adjusting to Mac having a much better book on him now half a season in.

I'm not worried and don't think the jury is out on whether or not he will be good, but if we are being honest he is working through some bumps in the road.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I think that this is the natural side effect of taking off the training wheels. He's looking more downfield and taking chances. This is a necessity, because staying with a horizontal passing game allows the defense to creep up and stop everything. But taking more chances means more mistakes.

He has rookie things to clean up too, like the delay of game problem. But he is a rookie. Overall he's still making good decisions generally, and his placement is still stellar. Those little wheel routes are no joke. He puts the ball where backs can take it and run, and the yards pile up.

I've been cautious about Mac all season, but hiccups like today's game are to be expected of a rookie or any young QB frankly.

 

[Super Nomario]

The Panthers are the second-best defense in the league per PFRef EPA so it shouldn't be too surprising the offense struggled. (Mac's worst game is still vs NO, which is the only other top-five D they've faced). It's hard to look at stuff like two-three game stretches and find trends, when there's so much variance in opponent (both overall quality and scheme / matchup), healthy/availability, and just the randomness of human performance (Jakobi catches that third down pass on the first drive clean and it's probably a first ... how does that change the early going?). Overall the offense is below-average but not terrible, a tad better than they were last year.

 

[Bowhemian]

I think that this is the natural side effect of taking off the training wheels. He's looking more downfield and taking chances. This is a necessity, because staying with a horizontal passing game allows the defense to creep up and stop everything. But taking more chances means more mistakes.

He has rookie things to clean up too, like the delay of game problem. But he is a rookie. Overall he's still making good decisions generally, and his placement is still stellar. Those little wheel routes are no joke. He puts the ball where backs can take it and run, and the yards pile up.

I've been cautious about Mac all season, but hiccups like today's game are to be expected of a rookie or any young QB frankly.

I think this is right, however Josh McD didn't seem very pleased with his pass choices in that 3 and out series in the 4th Q.

 

[Gash Prex]

I think there are a few factors going in:

1) The Chargers game wasn't as bad as you think. Advanced stats showed it as a slight net positive (EPA, PFF, and QBR). And Mac had been really good up to the Panthers game;

View: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1456244990884159488


2) The Chargers and Panthers have 2 of the best pass defenses

3) Mac didn't have many opportunities in the 2nd half in the Panthers game except for the bizarre sequence of throwaways in the red zone

4) Mac's INT was awful

 

[Jungleland]

The most encouraging thing to me about the past two weeks is that while Mac has struggled to make plays, he hasn't let the game get away from him. Perhaps it's a bit of a biased perspective with how much screen time we've gotten with Darnold and Wilson, but time and again when shitty quarterbacks play the Pats they press and make mistake after mistake and put their teams in unwinnable holes.

The Panther D played well enough to be competitive yesterday had Darnold not given the game away. Contrast that with Mac, who followed up both his turnovers with touchdown drives. In particular the second: Mac throws a horrific rookie interception, Carolina gets the game within a point, and then he makes his two best throws of the day on a 75 yard TD drive that didn't end the game but completely restored New England momentum. Game management accolades can be damning with faint praise, but I think it's extremely important to his development - and says a lot about where he is in it - to win games like yesterday where he didn't really have it.

 

[catomatic]

The most encouraging thing to me about the past two weeks is that while Mac has struggled to make plays, he hasn't let the game get away from him. Perhaps it's a bit of a biased perspective with how much screen time we've gotten with Darnold and Wilson, but time and again when shitty quarterbacks play the Pats they press and make mistake after mistake and put their teams in unwinnable holes.

The Panther D played well enough to be competitive yesterday had Darnold not given the game away. Contrast that with Mac, who followed up both his turnovers with touchdown drives. In particular the second: Mac throws a horrific rookie interception, Carolina gets the game within a point, and then he makes his two best throws of the day on a 75 yard TD drive that didn't end the game but completely restored New England momentum. Game management accolades can be damning with faint praise, but I think it's extremely important to his development - and says a lot about where he is in it - to win games like yesterday where he didn't really have it.

This puts me in mind of the deep TD to Bourne a play or two after the crippling pick 6 in the waning minutes against Dallas. Eye-popping resilience on display there.

 

[bakahump]

In other threads I have banged the "You need experience to be good" drum. And I wonder if that is a contributing factor to.....

Mac seems to have alot of balls knocked down (Edit ) At the LOS. Stature? Experience? Bad OL play? Something else?

 

[Van Everyman]

In other threads I have banged the "You need experience to be good" drum. And I wonder if that is a contributing factor to.....

Mac seems to have alot of balls knocked down. Stature? Experience? Bad OL play? Something else?

Sam Darnold would like a word.

Mac's TD throw to Henry yesterday was underrated. A ton of zip, low and in a spot where only he could get it. Meanwhile Darnold was laying his receivers out over and over.

 

[DJnVa]

I'm not sure why everyone expects 17 games of nothing but upward trajectory here. Or why others seem to think he's going to go 20/30 for 280 yards every week.

 

[tims4wins]

Brady’s last 8 games of 2001 (5 regular season plus 3 playoffs) he threw 3 TDs and 6 picks. Naturally the Pats only went 2-6… oh wait they went 8-0 and won the whole damn thing.

Point is as @DJnVa said this will not be some straight line trajectory. There will be lots of ups and downs along the way.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I think there are a few factors going in:

1) The Chargers game wasn't as bad as you think. Advanced stats showed it as a slight net positive (EPA, PFF, and QBR). And Mac had been really good up to the Panthers game;

View: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1456244990884159488


2) The Chargers and Panthers have 2 of the best pass defenses

3) Mac didn't have many opportunities in the 2nd half in the Panthers game except for the bizarre sequence of throwaways in the red zone

4) Mac's INT was awful

Yeah I don't know why people think he was bad. He started I believe 11/13 (the INT and then the other incompletion was tipped at the line on a great play) He also didn't have to do a whole lot in the second half. He threw it what 6-7 times in the 2nd half? I'm all for them not having him throw if we don't need to. One less chance to get him killed.

 

[bakahump]

Sam Darnold would like a word.

Mac's TD throw to Henry yesterday was underrated. A ton of zip, low and in a spot where only he could get it. Meanwhile Darnold was laying his receivers out over and over.

I meant at the LOS.

 

[Red Averages]

Brady’s last 8 games of 2001 (5 regular season plus 3 playoffs) he threw 3 TDs and 6 picks. Naturally the Pats only went 2-6… oh wait they went 8-0 and won the whole damn thing.

Point is as @DJnVa said this will not be some straight line trajectory. There will be lots of ups and downs along the way.

System Quarterback

 

[Van Everyman]

I meant at the LOS.

Weren’t Darnold’s at the LOS as well?

 

[bakahump]

True. But its darnold. LOL

Plus I am speaking about more then yesterday. Just seems noteworthy that SO many of Jones passes are getting knocked down at the LOS.

 

[DJnVa]

True. But its darnold. LOL

Plus I am speaking about more then yesterday. Just seems noteworthy that SO many of Jones passes are getting knocked down at the LOS.

Are they? Is there a source? Only thing I can find is this (click on Accuracy): 2021 NFL Advanced Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

We can quibble over their definition, but the Pats are near the bottom of the league in passes batted down. The difference, I think, is that you are watching every play.

I'm also unsure if passes batted down at the line are meaningful in any way.

 

[Ed Hillel]

What the fuck is happening? After the play? He also played the next defensive play and got hurt 2 quarters later? I mean what?
View: https://twitter.com/mysportsupdate/status/1457762672850657287?s=10

 

[rodderick]

Eh, I do think the play was a little dirty, but the whining about it has been way too much. What, you want the kid suspended for that?

 

[cshea]

Remember when Mac got sacked well after the whistle(s) last week? Where was the outcry?

 

[BaseballJones]

Remember when Mac got sacked well after the whistle(s) last week? Where was the outcry?

In the game thread on SOSH.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Eh, I do think the play was a little dirty, but the whining about it has been way too much. What, you want the kid suspended for that?

Is it illegal to tackle people by the ankles now? Mac thought the ball was loose, what exactly is dirty? Ankle tackles happen every week.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Is it illegal to tackle people by the ankles now? Mac thought the ball was loose, what exactly is dirty? Ankle tackles happen every week.

you're definitely not allowed to tackle guys who don't have the ball and never had the ball. To me it's pretty dirty, he grabs him (likely to prevent him from recovering the fumble, I don't buy that he thought Burns had the ball) which is illegal but whatever, the roll is dirty, you should recognize by then that he doesn't have the ball.

 

[rodderick]

Is it illegal to tackle people by the ankles now? Mac thought the ball was loose, what exactly is dirty? Ankle tackles happen every week.

He rolled his ankle, man. I mean, do you see that often in games? That's not an "ankle tackle". It's fine, he did it to prevent Burns from getting the ball/thought Burns had the ball, but it is what it is. The tugging and pulling if perfectly fine, the rolling isn't.

 

[bakahump]

Are they? Is there a source? Only thing I can find is this (click on Accuracy): 2021 NFL Advanced Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

We can quibble over their definition, but the Pats are near the bottom of the league in passes batted down. The difference, I think, is that you are watching every play.

I'm also unsure if passes batted down at the line are meaningful in any way.

Thats Fair.
Could obviously be familiarity Bias. But I swear there have been more then 3 which would make me question the PFR numbers.

And I guess the only bad side to passes batted down are they could conceivably be completions for yards and touchdowns.

 

[Ed Hillel]

He rolled his ankle, man. I mean, do you see that often in games? That's not an "ankle tackle". It's fine, he did it to prevent Burns from getting the ball/thought Burns had the ball, but it is what it is. The tugging and pulling if perfectly fine, the rolling isn't.

It did not look to me like he rolled his ankle, but that the dude twisted his own ankle trying to get free after he lost his balance hopping on one foot.

you're definitely not allowed to tackle guys who don't have the ball and never had the ball. To me it's pretty dirty, he grabs him (likely to prevent him from recovering the fumble, I don't buy that he thought Burns had the ball) which is illegal but whatever, the roll is dirty, you should recognize by then that he doesn't have the ball.

I never said he thought Burns had the ball (I believe he thought the ball was loose), but is it illegal to tackle someone going for a loose ball on the ground in proximity to the ball? Seems to be a fairly common occurrence, and in and of itself no way it'd be considered "dirty." You can also tackle people on tipped balls btw, which is a case where someone has never touched the ball.

Either way, it certainly was not "after the play" and Burns played two more quarters before he hurt it again, so the Ruhle's comments make no sense.

 

[Red Averages]

The coach is defending his player, relax. It's not that big of a deal. There isn't a private commission set up to investigate a penalty here.

 

[rodderick]

It did not look to me like he rolled his ankle, but that the dude twisted his own ankle trying to get free after he lost his balance hopping on one foot.

I never said he thought Burns had the ball (I believe he thought the ball was loose), but is it illegal to tackle someone going for a loose ball on the ground in proximity to the ball? Seems to be a fairly common occurrence, and in and of itself no way it'd be considered "dirty." You can also tackle people on tipped balls btw, which is a case where someone has never touched the ball.

Either way, it certainly was not "after the play" and Burns played two more quarters before he hurt it again, so the Ruhle's comments make no sense.

View: https://twitter.com/VictionaryHD/status/1457750688625270789?s=20

I can't watch this and see anything other than Mac turning his body to roll Burns' ankle.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Oh. Not sure he turns his ankle, but he definitely leg whips him, which sends him to the ground at an awkward angle. Looks different from the above angle.

The coach is defending his player, relax. It's not that big of a deal. There isn't a private commission set up to investigate a penalty here.

Well, people are asking he be suspended, so it seems like something worth discussing.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Well, people are asking he be suspended, so it seems like something worth discussing.

Who says he should be suspended?

 

[PedroKsBambino]

It wouldn't be the most ridiculous suspension of a Patriots QB ever, but it would be fairly unprecedented to suspend a QB for that.

I think a fine is quite possible; that play looks pretty bad on replay and there's two acts not just one (the leg block, and then the grab and hold).

 

[rodderick]

Oh. Not sure he turns his ankle, but he definitely leg whips him, which sends him to the ground at an awkward angle. Looks different from the above angle.
Well, people are asking he be suspended, so it seems like something worth discussing.

It's why I said it was "a little dirty". Nothing egregious, don't think there was intent to injure, but he did go a little far. I have no clue why this is getting national attention, other than "it's the Patriots".

 

[joe dokes]

It's why I said it was "a little dirty". Nothing egregious, don't think there was intent to injure, but he did go a little far. I have no clue why this is getting national attention, other than "it's the Patriots".

Or its because he's one of the few players accused by another team's head coach of making dirty play yesterday that led to another player's injury?

 

[E5 Yaz]

https://twitter.com/TomPelissero

View: https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1457755920608358400

@TomPelissero
The NFL will review #Patriots QB Mac Jones grabbing Brian Burns' ankle Sunday as part of its normal process, I'm told. Jones faces a possible fine, but nothing more than that.

 

[rodderick]

Or its because he's one of the few players accused by another team's head coach of making dirty play yesterday that led to another player's injury?

I recall Bill said that of Welker for his cut on Talib after the 2013 AFCCG, didn't seem to elicit a national conversation then.