The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

Big McCorkle

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There was no checkdown to throw to, it was a max-protect play action shot. Lamar would probably run it in for a touchdown here, Jones could have at least picked up a decent chunk of change.

I'm not sure there's anything really to conclude though other than that Jones should start listening to Kenny Rogers.

On a related note, is there any similar discussion on that Jets board I've seen mentioned around these parts, but about Wilson? Can't imagine that there's that much to talk about, "he should try not throwing it directly to the defender there" doesn't require too much elaboration.
 
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SMU_Sox

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You lost me on that post - you want him to fold? hold? Gamble? Come to Jesus? (To be fair I have no idea what Kenny Roger's sings other than that one song about you gotta know when to...).
 

Big McCorkle

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You lost me on that post - you want him to fold? hold? Gamble? Come to Jesus? (To be fair I have no idea what Kenny Roger's sings other than that one song about you gotta know when to...).
He's gotta know when to run.

(And when to hold 'em, too.)
Also, I posted that from my phone, but now that I'm on the computer the image is fucking massive. Moving it to a thumbnail because good lord it was taking up my entire screen.
 

lexrageorge

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Do we really want Jones running at this point? I'll take an incompletion most any day of the week and twice on Sundays, with the exception of late game desperation downs.
 

SMU_Sox

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Perry kind enough to reach back out. He is not just a wonderful reporter, intelligent AF, but a good guy who makes time for fans. He saw it as a good recovery by Maye - he also puts some of it on Mac.

Keep in mind here we have, once again, a different interpretation of the same play.
 

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Mystic Merlin

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Perry kind enough to reach back out. He is not just a wonderful reporter, intelligent AF, but a good guy who makes time for fans. He saw it as a good recovery by Maye - he also puts some of it on Mac.

Keep in mind here we have, once again, a different interpretation of the same play.
Clearly Perry is the greatest expert, as he agrees with me that the safety played that very well.

In all seriousness, it is fascinating how many ways you can break down certain plays, and especially how it is hard to make certain assumptions about how a play SHOULD have gone when we don’t actually know how it was drawn up/what the players saw unless a coach and player goes on the record.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Clearly Perry is the greatest expert, as he agrees with me that the safety played that very well.

In all seriousness, it is fascinating how many ways you can break down certain plays, and especially how it is hard to make certain assumptions about how a play SHOULD have gone when we don’t actually know how it was drawn up/what the players saw unless a coach and player goes on the record.
I'm in the same boat on the recovery. He was lightning fast on the recovery and played it well. Really, the corner and safety both recovered well. Give credit where its due.
 

SMU_Sox

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In all seriousness, it is fascinating how many ways you can break down certain plays, and especially how it is hard to make certain assumptions about how a play SHOULD have gone when we don’t actually know how it was drawn up/what the players saw unless a coach and player goes on the record.
I think this is one of the things that make football awesome and frustrating at the same time but also makes for great discussions when people make good faith arguments. Some things are really obvious like Lazar's article showing Uche getting blown up at the point of attack against the run. But diagnosing what went wrong with passing concepts requires you to make a judgement call on the play call, what the progression was, what the defense was doing, and then what the QB and receiver should have been doing. It's a lot of elements and the more elements you have to diagnose and consider the wider the array of opinions on what happened will be.
 

joe dokes

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In all seriousness, it is fascinating how many ways you can break down certain plays, and especially how it is hard to make certain assumptions about how a play SHOULD have gone when we don’t actually know how it was drawn up/what the players saw unless a coach and player goes on the record.
I dont dive into any of this as deeply as any of you, but it's reassuring to see a deep-dive example of a play outcome that doesn't have a clear-cut cause (or may have many inter-related causes, including that the other team has good players, too). As I've gotten older (and read more of this type of stuff here) I rarely assign blame from my couch to any but the most obvious fuckups. It makes sense. After all, coaches have been saying "I'll have to wait until I see the film" for as long as there's been film.
 

Super Nomario

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I watched the all-22 and while I have a handful of issues with Mac's play - passing up Agholor on the double pass the most egregious - the biggest issues were with pass protection and receivers that couldn't separate deep. They have a slow group of receivers and they had a lot of vertical passing concepts that didn't always have intermediate options. The Jets took away the deep stuff easily and were all over the checkdowns too. Meanwhile their rush beat both tackles soundly and schemed up free rushers. The Jets D outschemed the Pats O and they executed better.
 
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I watched the all-22 and while I have a handful of issues with Mac's play - passing up Agholor on the double pass the most egregious - the biggest issues were with pass protection and receivers that couldn't separate deep. They have a slow group of receivers and they had a lot of vertical passing concepts that didn't always have intermediate options. The Jets took away the deep stuff easily and were all over the checkdowns too. Meanwhile their rush beat both tackles soundly and schemed up free rushers. The Jets D outschemed the Pats O and they executed better.
Is the Jets defense supposed to be really good? Or are these issues potentially a concern against middle-of-the-pack type defenses?
 

Super Nomario

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Is the Jets defense supposed to be really good? Or are these issues potentially a concern against middle-of-the-pack type defenses?
I don't think we know about the Jets D yet. They were bottom 10 last year but have pretty good so far in 2021. But it's just two games, and one (the Pats) is the variable we're trying to isolate.

I think after the last three years we should be wary of the NE offense.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I watched the all-22 and while I have a handful of issues with Mac's play - passing up Agholor on the double pass the most egregious - the biggest issues were with pass protection and receivers that couldn't separate deep. They have a slow group of receivers and they had a lot of vertical passing concepts that didn't always have intermediate options. The Jets took away the deep stuff easily and were all over the checkdowns too. Meanwhile their rush beat both tackles soundly and schemed up free rushers. The Jets D outschemed the Pats O and they executed better.
I didnt watch the all-22, but that's what basically stood out to me on the play John highlighted above. Bourne got separation on his cut, and within 3 yards had the corner right back in his pocket. Was Agholor hurt for a few plays? Because that skinny post against single high sure seems like the type of situation you acquired him for.
 

Super Nomario

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I didnt watch the all-22, but that's what basically stood out to me on the play John highlighted above. Bourne got separation on his cut, and within 3 yards had the corner right back in his pocket. Was Agholor hurt for a few plays? Because that skinny post against single high sure seems like the type of situation you acquired him for.
Agholor's there, he's the other receiver running a post. This is a play that involves multiple receivers running vertical routes, so one of them is going to be a slow guy, because they only have one fast receiver. I definitely think Mac is late on this throw though.
 

SMU_Sox

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I feel like the throw looks later than it actually is because Bourne lost his separation because like you said he's slow. Plus the whole thing with late throws that I would bring up when it comes to arm strength and velocity is a guy like Mac can't be late. But I also figure as he grows he won't be (I am staying positive on this - it's also possible this doesn't happen or doesn't happen to the degree it needs to for him to be a great QB, sure). I also had some questions on if their route concepts necessarily were deep or if they converted to deeper routes because of coverage? On the one hand it doesn't really matter because the routes they ran were the routes they ran but what if defenses knew hey if we play cover X against them in this look they convert to A, B, C, and those are deeper routes which they can't execute anyway.

Quick edit: granted the defense doesn't know the play call (usually) and they can run different concepts out of each formation, but just as a in general. I am thinking out loud on this one. It might be a shite idea of mine. Could be. Have plenty of shite ideas.
 
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Mystic Merlin

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I feel like the throw looks later than it actually is because Bourne lost his separation because like you said he's slow. Plus the whole thing with late throws that I would bring up when it comes to arm strength and velocity is a guy like Mac can't be late. But I also figure as he grows he won't be (I am staying positive on this - it's also possible this doesn't happen or doesn't happen to the degree it needs to for him to be a great QB, sure). I also had some questions on if their route concepts necessarily were deep or if they converted to deeper routes because of coverage? On the one hand it doesn't really matter because the routes they ran were the routes they ran but what if defenses knew hey if we play cover X against them in this look they convert to A, B, C, and those are deeper routes which they can't execute anyway.

Quick edit: granted the defense doesn't know the play call (usually) and they can run different concepts out of each formation, but just as a in general. I am thinking out loud on this one. It might be a shite idea of mine. Could be. Have plenty of shite ideas.
If you track when he started to throw with when Maye’s hips flipped to cover the Agholor over route - which is his key there - his decision/release wasn’t as late as it first appeared when I saw the throw.

I do think there are defensive staffs that will increasingly coach their secondary players - especially in zone coverages or the safeties in most coverages - to not respect certain route concepts if evidence builds on tape that the Pats can’t threaten them in those ways.
 

Eddie Jurak

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A strange thing happened with Mac at the end of the game.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/09/26/Bill-Belichick-Mac-Jones-patriots-wrist-off-field-Saints

  • Immediately following the game, and you saw a little bit of this on the television broadcast before they cut away, Mac Jones sat on the bench for a while staring down.
  • An opposing player, likely Jameis Winston doing the QB greeting, came over to greet Jones and he reciprocated.
  • After that, Jones got up and started to walk toward the field, likely to greet a few more players.
  • Before he got to the sideline, Bill Belichick intercepted Jones by grabbing him by wrist.
  • Jones then left the field with Belichick and descended the stairs to the locker room.
 

BigSoxFan

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A strange thing happened with Mac at the end of the game.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/09/26/Bill-Belichick-Mac-Jones-patriots-wrist-off-field-Saints

  • Immediately following the game, and you saw a little bit of this on the television broadcast before they cut away, Mac Jones sat on the bench for a while staring down.
  • An opposing player, likely Jameis Winston doing the QB greeting, came over to greet Jones and he reciprocated.
  • After that, Jones got up and started to walk toward the field, likely to greet a few more players.
  • Before he got to the sideline, Bill Belichick intercepted Jones by grabbing him by wrist.
  • Jones then left the field with Belichick and descended the stairs to the locker room.
This is why Brady left!!!111!
 

SMU_Sox

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Per Reiss:

He finished 3-of-19 with a touchdown and two interceptions on throws at least 15 yards down the field, according to ESPN Stats & Information, which ties for the second most deep incompletions (16) by a quarterback in any game over the past 15 seasons.

Some of that was a result of late-game throws with the outcome essentially decided and the Saints knowing what was coming. But the two early misses ultimately were the first decisive turning point of a disappointing day as the Saints took over, scored a touchdown and never trailed again.
 

Euclis20

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The bright side, I suppose, is that he heard the criticisms about him only throwing short and tried taking some chances. Growing pains on the way to becoming a good starting QB. If he doesn't make it, it won't be for lack of trying.
 

Willie Clay's Big Play

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A strange thing happened with Mac at the end of the game.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/09/26/Bill-Belichick-Mac-Jones-patriots-wrist-off-field-Saints

  • Immediately following the game, and you saw a little bit of this on the television broadcast before they cut away, Mac Jones sat on the bench for a while staring down.
  • An opposing player, likely Jameis Winston doing the QB greeting, came over to greet Jones and he reciprocated.
  • After that, Jones got up and started to walk toward the field, likely to greet a few more players.
  • Before he got to the sideline, Bill Belichick intercepted Jones by grabbing him by wrist.
  • Jones then left the field with Belichick and descended the stairs to the locker room.
Nothing burger. Just BB making sure Mac didn't get any advice from Jameis.
 

BigJimEd

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A strange thing happened with Mac at the end of the game.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/09/26/Bill-Belichick-Mac-Jones-patriots-wrist-off-field-Saints

  • Immediately following the game, and you saw a little bit of this on the television broadcast before they cut away, Mac Jones sat on the bench for a while staring down.
  • An opposing player, likely Jameis Winston doing the QB greeting, came over to greet Jones and he reciprocated.
  • After that, Jones got up and started to walk toward the field, likely to greet a few more players.
  • Before he got to the sideline, Bill Belichick intercepted Jones by grabbing him by wrist.
  • Jones then left the field with Belichick and descended the stairs to the locker room.
Phil Perry saw it differently:

View: https://twitter.com/PhilAPerry/status/1442219180590186497?s=19


Mac Jones sitting with his head down on the Patriots bench for an extended period of time after that last pick. Game ends. Jameis Winston finds him all the way across the field to shake his hand. Jones stands up. Belichick gives him a quick low-5 and the two walk in together.
 

rodderick

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And here was a follow up

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1442633529553301504


Mac needs a little more time in pocket and some experience but he’s learning to fly the plane while in the air
I don't know, but it kinda bothers me when guys like Lazar who have no background in the game, scouting or coaching (maybe he does and I'm being an asshole, if that's the case someone set me straight) say definitively a guy is going through his progressions correctly. How could he possibly know how clean Mac's reads are, especially when he admits the process has been sped up due to protection issues?
 

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It's tremendously disappointing to think that the oline is a house of cards, and if Trent Brown is out (or has a bad day) the whole thing collapses, but that's the way it looks, certainly.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I don't know, but it kinda bothers me when guys like Lazar who have no background in the game, scouting or coaching (maybe he does and I'm being an asshole, if that's the case someone set me straight) say definitively a guy is going through his progressions correctly. How could he possibly know how clean Mac's reads are, especially when he admits the process has been sped up due to protection issues?
The short answer is if you watch enough film and learn about offensive schemes and defensive schemes, you get a good sense of where the ball should go given the play design and the defense, both pre and post snap. You don’t need to be a scout or football lifer to do it, it just takes a LOT of investment of time and energy to get good at it.

It’s an imperfect exercise for anyone - scout, reporter, amateur, whoever - who isn’t in the team’s offensive room, but it isn’t a black box either. If a defense shows, for example, a cover 2 pre snap and post snap, then there are obvious places the ball should and should not go (and when).
 

Cellar-Door

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It's tremendously disappointing to think that the oline is a house of cards, and if Trent Brown is out (or has a bad day) the whole thing collapses, but that's the way it looks, certainly.
I mean, did you watch the SB last year? Kansas City and Mahomes looked like the Jets and Wilson when their OL got hurt/wasn’t effective.

It’s kind of an important past of an offenses success.
 

SMU_Sox

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Re: Lazar.
There are a lot of ways to learn about this great game. You can also teach yourself by reading books that have online courses too and film examples. I’ve read about 3 books just on offensive line play. You can follow guys like Brandon Thorn and Duke Manyweather on Twitter and subscribe to Thorn’s sub stack which is excellent. You can also sign up for the Scouting Academy. There’s a lot of ways to learn football. It’s impossible to know everything even when you have the all-22. Louis Riddick got a coverage call wrong when he analyzed a play some time back and the only reason I know that is because the player called him out on it. Coverage schemes get crazy complicated too - you really have to guess on a lot of plays if it’s one thing or the other. And then with running plays if I had a nickel for how many times OL Twitter debated if the call was inside zone or duo I’d have a shit ton of nickels. So a lot of it is a black box. Also, I know there is a thread here on football books and I need to add some that are really good. There is for example a book I have upstairs that just talks about coverages and how to attack them. (Edit: sorry out and about so can’t remember the name of it).
 

kartvelo

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I mean, did you watch the SB last year? Kansas City and Mahomes looked like the Jets and Wilson when their OL got hurt/wasn’t effective.

It’s kind of an important past of an offenses success.
Of course, the oline is important.
As I said, it's disappointing that you can lose one piece and the whole line falls apart. One would hope that it might degrade a bit rather than utterly collapse.
 

Big McCorkle

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Even goddamn Madden will teach you some basic stuff, and I mean literally teach you it to you in practice tutorials, like how and what specific route combos can beat a given zone coverage scheme and how to read the blocking as it develops in an inside zone. As for seeing a QB going through his reads or progressions, it's not that hard to guess as to what was probably the design based on what routes the receivers the running and what the defense was doing, nevermind just the simple act of watching where the QB is looking. (Like, if a guy is looking at the same receiver the entire time and then gets his pass picked off by a safety who came rushing in... generally speaking you can assume exactly what happened there.) You won't always be right, but you don't have to be.

It's tremendously disappointing to think that the oline is a house of cards, and if Trent Brown is out (or has a bad day) the whole thing collapses, but that's the way it looks, certainly.
Of course, the oline is important.
As I said, it's disappointing that you can lose one piece and the whole line falls apart. One would hope that it might degrade a bit rather than utterly collapse.
The following isn't all that true in general because it's a vast oversimplication, but on a specific given play an offensive line tends to be only as strong as its weakest link. It's possible to scheme around to a degree, but if there was a team rolling out an offensive line of Joe Thomas, John Hannah, prime Rodney Hudson, Larry Allen, and then me, Big McCorkle, as their right tackle, their QB would be in for a very bad day. (And I played tackle for the three months I played peewee tackle football because I was basically too tall to be allowed to carry the ball, which was some bullshit that I'm still a bit salty about.) The problem is just that Herron has been that bad. Even with occasionally getting beat by schemed pressures, It's not a matter of the offensive line as a whole, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if Mason got hurt and Karras had to come in, it's a matter of the tackle depth specifically being very bad. It wasn't as much of an issue last year because they were happy to slide Onwenu over to tackle, Herron wasn't as bad as he's been so far this year, and because Eluemenor...

Wait, what the actual fuck, Eleumenor went to the Raiders for all of one million dollars? He was perfectly serviceable as a right tackle. Was it really more important to roster Jakob Johnson? Jesus.
 

DJnVa

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I don't know, but it kinda bothers me when guys like Lazar who have no background in the game, scouting or coaching (maybe he does and I'm being an asshole, if that's the case someone set me straight) say definitively a guy is going through his progressions correctly. How could he possibly know how clean Mac's reads are, especially when he admits the process has been sped up due to protection issues?
The easiest thing to do is go watch one of his film breakdowns. It's clear he knows the technical stuff.
 

Rico Guapo

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I don't think the reads are the big concerns on whether he can make all the throws, the concern is whether he has the juice on his arm to make all the throws, particularly from a non-perfect pocket.
You keep repeating this train of thought in various threads, are you watching the games? He's getting pressured on most drop backs, if not hit or sacked outright, because the OL is garbage. Further compounding this issue is the receivers aren't quick enough to gain separation near the LOS so he has to wait for plays to develop which is disastrous given the OL can't block.
 

Cellar-Door

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You keep repeating this train of thought in various threads, are you watching the games? He's getting pressured on most drop backs, if not hit or sacked outright, because the OL is garbage. Further compounding this issue is the receivers aren't quick enough to gain separation near the LOS so he has to wait for plays to develop which is disastrous given the OL can't block.
I;m watching yes. I'm not saying anything about the pressure. I'm saying I think me makes good reads but I think he's near the bottom of the NFL in arm strength and he doesn't have the ability to escape the pocket, so he's going to struggle with pressure. I don't see anything in your post that would counter that. He's just not a guy (at least now, there are guys who improve arm strength) who can really fire the ball without a good pocket. Not sure what him getting pressured has to do with his arm strength, it doesn't make his arm less strong.

Edit- though also it's misleading to say he's getting pressure on most drop backs, he's about league average on pressures, hurries and hits.
 

Cellar-Door

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You can see the film breakdown here and see how close they were on a number of big plays but for the protection break down at the last second

https://www.clnsmedia.com/lazars-film-review-the-big-plays-are-coming-for-the-patriots-passing-offense/
Good article, couple ones I think he is off on... the deep pass to Agholor, he should note that Mac couldn't get enough on it because he bailed early, he had time but anticipated a rush that wasn't there yet long term that's a play you have to step in and make the throw. Also, on that first video in your post, I think he misreads that too, Gardner probably would have gotten there anyway, but Mac pulled it down and stepped up, I think maybe he thought the rusher was going to go behind him and he could leak out to either scramble or re-set and throw?
I think he probably gets hit either way, but I bet they discuss in film study what he saw there that he reacted that way, because he made the sack easier on the defender.

Overall though... the WR and even TE separation is encouraging, I think Mac is mostly making good decisions, just got a bit rush shy after the early struggles, the line and backs need to do a better job in pass pro.

This is one of the best defenses they'll face this year, so as we get more cohesion and Brown gets back on the line, and Mac gets used to pressure (he saw basically none in college) I think the offense has real potential.
 

DourDoerr

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Thanks for linking. At least provides a glimmer of hope.
Same. Very encouraging as one of the (or at least mine) assumptions was that the sacks/pressure were double-barrelled with bad OL play and no receiver separation. Compounded problems would make correction so much more difficult. Solving the line is everything now. Gets the RB's going, saves wear and tear on MJ and opens up the passing game. Frustrating that what was probably seen as the team's biggest strength in the offseason might be the team's biggest weakness so far.

Watching those vids, it's also frustrating the suck that is the announcing. They have the ability to see the whole field, but they can't give us any insight on specific problems. Why the pressure? No one open? Bad cuts/great coverage? Etc.? They give us nothing. We have to wait two days for glimmers.
 

Cellar-Door

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Same. Very encouraging as one of the (or at least mine) assumptions was that the sacks/pressure were double-barrelled with bad OL play and no receiver separation. Compounded problems would make correction so much more difficult. Solving the line is everything now. Gets the RB's going, saves wear and tear on MJ and opens up the passing game. Frustrating that what was probably seen as the team's biggest strength in the offseason might be the team's biggest weakness so far.

Watching those vids, it's also frustrating the suck that is the announcing. They have the ability to see the whole field, but they can't give us any insight on specific problems. Why the pressure? No one open? Bad cuts/great coverage? Etc.? They give us nothing. We have to wait two days for glimmers.
One thing.. the line was bad, but the worst protection seemed to be on the blitz, with the TE and RB positions struggling. The line should hopefully be helped by Brown's return... RB, well I hope the answer isn't a lot more Bolden, but I wouldn't be surprised.
 

Big McCorkle

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You can see the film breakdown here and see how close they were on a number of big plays but for the protection break down at the last second

https://www.clnsmedia.com/lazars-film-review-the-big-plays-are-coming-for-the-patriots-passing-offense/

View: https://streamable.com/aaythp


View: https://streamable.com/bwue85
The presence of Jakob Johnson on an NFL roster is beyond befuddling. Also, the second throw looks absolutely incredible from the endzone angle, probably better than it actually was.
 

Gash Prex

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Here is the weekly film review by Lazar and some comments on air yards. I've been beating the drum since the beginning of the season that we don't need 20+ yard plays and concerns about Mac downfield passing were overrated.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1445400554696544261


The Patriots can feature a quick passing attack with intermediate throws sprinkled in to get larger gains through the air, and everything for this offense takes shape from there.

As the examples above suggest, Mac is a much better passer in the shotgun than from under center, where he can see the defense clearer and rely on his college developments.

Furthermore, longer seven-step drops don’t favor Jones’s physical skill set as a passer with average arm strength and exacerbate the issues in pass protection by making the offensive line hold the fort longer.
https://www.clnsmedia.com/lazars-film-review-patriots-are-adjusting-to-mac-joness-strengths-onus-now-on-execution/