The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

Marciano490

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I could be wrong, but wasn’t (isn’t?) ‘prime’ Brady visibly more ‘toned’ than back in 2000? Obviously correlation/causation issues, but people here have talked about his throwing strength improving over time, and I think that corresponds with a lot of things: mechanics, experience, and yeah ‘tone’. He looks more fit in the middle of his career.
And again, I’m not looking at McCorkle and calling that predictive of his throwing Strength.
im looking at him and calling that (speculating) predictive of his ability to increase his throwing strength as he conditions and reaches his prime. Obviously, mechanics and experience count too, and I never disregarded those (i certainly didn’t mean to).
So A. Throwing strength is more than just ‘arm strength’ but obviously that’s the shorthand term people use.
And B. You can, sometimes, look at someone and have some notion that he/she might have room to increase overall strength.
I think that’s all I said (and I understand that you may disagree with B)
Everyone has room to increase overall strength. What I’m saying is the things you’re looking at as predictive are the wrong things.

Speaking of predictive, I should’ve needed SSF’s request. I don’t know if it’s just an overly Socratic style, but I wish these posts acknowledged being unfounded and based on poor hunches and lack of knowledge that don’t really have standing in a conversation with someone who spent 18ish years as a decently high level athlete, including in a strength sport where he trained under some of the best minds out there.

It’s not that I may disagree with B. B is wrong. It’s a pet theory with no foundation and when it’s been rebuked as such, why is there never a post saying “my previous post was wrong. I learned something today, or at least got some info to review.”

Read Hatfield and Louie Simmons and Tate and Wendler and Sheiko and Siff and Zatsiorski like I did. This is science. It’s all there.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Everyone has room to increase overall strength. What I’m saying is the things you’re looking at as predictive are the wrong things.

Speaking of predictive, I should’ve needed SSF’s request. I don’t know if it’s just an overly Socratic style, but I wish these posts acknowledged being unfounded and based on poor hunches and lack of knowledge that don’t really have standing in a conversation with someone who spent 18ish years as a decently high level athlete, including in a strength sport where he trained under some of the best minds out there.

It’s not that I may disagree with B. B is wrong. It’s a pet theory with no foundation and when it’s been rebuked as such, why is there never a post saying “my previous post was wrong. I learned something today, or at least got some info to review.”

Read Hatfield and Louie Simmons and Tate and Wendler and Sheiko and Siff and Zatsiorski like I did. This is science. It’s all there.
Well, I for one thought your posts have been very helpful. Pages ago, I wanted to know how it was that Brady could seem to improve his arm so much from his rookie year to his prime, and you obviously have a key part of the answer. The other key part, maybe, being mechanics and technique.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Serious question, what has anyone personally seen from Mac’s on the field play that shows he has a weak arm? The narrative keeps getting thrown around like it’s fact but I haven’t seen proof that it’s true.
 

lexrageorge

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Serious question, what has anyone personally seen from Mac’s on the field play that shows he has a weak arm? The narrative keeps getting thrown around like it’s fact but I haven’t seen proof that it’s true.
I doubt the difference in arm strength is something that will be seen watching preseason telecasts. People are instead going by scouting reports, which have been wrong in the past. Or get outdated quickly when a player starts conditioning at the NFL level on a regular basis.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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We've seen him in pre-season drop 45 yard throws on a dime. Hit in cuts in a tight window 20 yards downfield. We haven't seen the rolling right throwing left seeds...which I am ok with.I am not @SMU_Sox quality looking at tape, but it seems like he has enough arm to make the throws that he is being asked to make.
 

Jimbodandy

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Serious question, what has anyone personally seen from Mac’s on the field play that shows he has a weak arm? The narrative keeps getting thrown around like it’s fact but I haven’t seen proof that it’s true.
I don't have links at hand, but reputable predeaft scouting had him below average. He's also like an inch too short too. Neither of these things is a problem.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Is it possible that he gets the ball out so quickly that there isn’t enough time to have some of the really deep plays develop? It’s a question I’ve had stuck in my head but I haven’t had the time to do the research to find the answer.
 

simplyeric

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Everyone has room to increase overall strength. What I’m saying is the things you’re looking at as predictive are the wrong things.

Speaking of predictive, I should’ve needed SSF’s request. I don’t know if it’s just an overly Socratic style, but I wish these posts acknowledged being unfounded and based on poor hunches and lack of knowledge that don’t really have standing in a conversation with someone who spent 18ish years as a decently high level athlete, including in a strength sport where he trained under some of the best minds out there.

It’s not that I may disagree with B. B is wrong. It’s a pet theory with no foundation and when it’s been rebuked as such, why is there never a post saying “my previous post was wrong. I learned something today, or at least got some info to review.”

Read Hatfield and Louie Simmons and Tate and Wendler and Sheiko and Siff and Zatsiorski like I did. This is science. It’s all there.
I think you’re overstating what I’m saying. I am predicting absolutely nothing more than ‘looks like he could get stronger’. That’s it.

but, if the science really states that you can’t look at someone and say ‘hmm…looks like he has room to get stronger’ then ok. apparently there is absolutely zero connection between physical appearance and strength.

(please note that I’m not saying you can look at someone and tell precisely how strong they are, or how they will perform. Not remotely my point)
 
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Is it possible that he gets the ball out so quickly that there isn’t enough time to have some of the really deep plays develop? It’s a question I’ve had stuck in my head but I haven’t had the time to do the research to find the answer.
I seem to recall that many of Brady's deep throws when he was younger involved rolling him out to his left in sort of a rolling pocket that he would then reset in and throw the bomb from. Maybe they would need to something like that to buy the extra second or two.
 

simplyeric

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Everyone has room to increase overall strength. What I’m saying is the things you’re looking at as predictive are the wrong things.

Speaking of predictive, I should’ve needed SSF’s request. I don’t know if it’s just an overly Socratic style, but I wish these posts acknowledged being unfounded and based on poor hunches and lack of knowledge that don’t really have standing in a conversation with someone who spent 18ish years as a decently high level athlete, including in a strength sport where he trained under some of the best minds out there.

It’s not that I may disagree with B. B is wrong. It’s a pet theory with no foundation and when it’s been rebuked as such, why is there never a post saying “my previous post was wrong. I learned something today, or at least got some info to review.”

Read Hatfield and Louie Simmons and Tate and Wendler and Sheiko and Siff and Zatsiorski like I did. This is science. It’s all there.
I didn’t see an easy link in your post, and stated searching. Here’s a take on B
Across diverse samples of targets that included US college students, Bolivian horticulturalists and Andean pastoralists, subjects in the US were able to accurately estimate the physical strength of male targets from photos of their bodies and faces. Hierarchical linear modelling shows that subjects were extracting cues of strength that were largely independent of height, weight and age, and that corresponded most strongly to objective measures of upper-body strength-even when the face was all that was available for inspection.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23407485_Human_Adaptations_for_the_Visual_Assessment_of_Strength_and_Fighting_Ability_from_the_Body_and_Face

note again that I am not saying we can look at a guy and tell all sorts of things about his ability to throw a football, necessarily.
but for a guy like McCorkle, who seems to have good footwork, good anticipation, pretty good mechanics, and no known structural issues (e.g. bad shoulder), the above suggests that there is some ability to look at a person and judge some aspects of strength. I am extending that by also saying that looking at someone you might be able to tell that they could get stronger.

the visual isn’t everything, not by a long shot.
but it’s not nothing.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Bedard's review of the preseason game 2 coaches tape is up.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/09/06/patriots-quarterbacks-mac-jones-cam-newton-eagles

Newton was better in this one, but, again, Jones was better at avoiding bad plays.

Bedard had Newton as below average on 3 of 9 dropbacks (33.3%), but had him as plus 4 of 9 (44.4%), including the brialliant touchdown to Meyers.

But Jones was below average on only 3 of 21 dropbacks (14.3%), so, again, better at avoiding bad plays. Jones had five plus passes, but thay waas out of many more attemps, so less liekly than Newton to make plus plays in this one, but better overall. Jones also gets the ball out faster.
 

Marciano490

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I didn’t see an easy link in your post, and stated searching. Here’s a take on B


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23407485_Human_Adaptations_for_the_Visual_Assessment_of_Strength_and_Fighting_Ability_from_the_Body_and_Face

note again that I am not saying we can look at a guy and tell all sorts of things about his ability to throw a football, necessarily.
but for a guy like McCorkle, who seems to have good footwork, good anticipation, pretty good mechanics, and no known structural issues (e.g. bad shoulder), the above suggests that there is some ability to look at a person and judge some aspects of strength. I am extending that by also saying that looking at someone you might be able to tell that they could get stronger.

the visual isn’t everything, not by a long shot.
but it’s not nothing.
Strength is an amorphous term - there’s limit, starting, explosive, endurance and speed, there’s concentric, eccentric and static. Yes, it’s generally possible to look at someone and have a general sense of how strong they are. It’s also possible to look at someone and see if they’re capable of getting stronger, though - spoiler alert - that’s pretty much everyone, especially everyone in their 20s

There are different ways to train different muscle fibers. That’s why Westside guys do speed work for the fast twitch fibers with sets of 2-3 reps using CAT and limit work to push their 1rm’s.

I’d imagine most QBs and pitchers are extremely fast twitch/explosive and benefit from that kind of training. Now, fast twitch dominant people tend to be jacked and lean - look at sprinters v distance runners, but without a biopsy (ouch), it’s difficult to definitively tell what any athlete’s muscle fiber composition is.

You can also test it by comparing 1RM to the amount of reps done at some lower percentage of the athlete’s max. I’m very fast twitch, when I benched 350 in competition, my 3 rep max was only 315. An athlete with a more balanced muscle fiber composition is supposed to be able to do at least 5 reps at that percentage.

Again though, we’re talking about certain expressions and metrics of strength that don’t carry over a ton to actually athletic performance. I’d bet I’m stronger than most every NFL QB and MLB pitcher, but if I could throw a football 30 yards or a fastball over 70, I’d be shocked.

Keep in mind, too, that excess hypertrophy can ruin mechanics - putting on muscle mass changes leverages and sometimes the joint’s ROM. Looking at someone and saying they can get stronger is basically like saying the sky is blue. No doubt.

Mac will probably throw a better ball in a few years, along with all his contemporaries. What weaknesses he has now - remember any system is only as effective and efficient as its weakest link - will have to be properly diagnosed by the s&c team and coached up in a holistic fashion along with his technique and body composition.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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Evan Lazar's pod released today has Tim Jenkins as a guest and is a great listen. My favorite excerpt starts at 30:10, where there is excellent discussion about Mac and running a 5 wide offense. As a layman, it's absolute crack where Tim covers the underlying thought process and reads Mac made in the two instances against the Giants where they ran Hoss Y Juke. Mac's abilities to break down the defense has an elite outlook, and sprinkling in 12 personnel mismatches, extremely effective play-action, and his command of the 2-minute drill give the passing offense the potential to be more effective than I think people are giving it credit for. Somewhere between a 2018 Mayfield and 2020 Herbert campaign should be a reasonable benchmark.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9CWjAVG_-0
 
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Captaincoop

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Evan Lazar's pod released today has Tim Jenkins as a guest and is a great listen. My favorite excerpt starts at 30:10, where there is excellent discussion about Mac and running a 5 wide offense. As a layman, it's absolute crack where Tim covers the underlying thought process and reads Mac made in the two instances against the Giants where they ran Hoss Y Juke. Mac's abilities to break down the defense has an elite outlook, and sprinkling in 12 personnel mismatches, extremely effective play-action, and his command of the 2-minute drill give the passing offense the potential to be more effective than I think people are giving it credit for. Somewhere between a 2018 Mayfield and 2020 Herbert campaign should be a reasonable benchmark.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9CWjAVG_-0
It will be hard to run 5 wide plays without 5 wide receivers on the roster:)
 

rodderick

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Evan Lazar's pod released today has Tim Jenkins as a guest and is a great listen. My favorite excerpt starts at 30:10, where there is excellent discussion about Mac and running a 5 wide offense. As a layman, it's absolute crack where Tim covers the underlying thought process and reads Mac made in the two instances against the Giants where they ran Hoss Y Juke. Mac's abilities to break down the defense has an elite outlook, and sprinkling in 12 personnel mismatches, extremely effective play-action, and his command of the 2-minute drill give the passing offense the potential to be more effective than I think people are giving it credit for. Somewhere between a 2018 Mayfield and 2020 Herbert campaign should be a reasonable benchmark.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9CWjAVG_-0
So a top 3 rookie season all time should be a reasonable benchmark? I feel like this board will potentially explode if Mac looks like a rookie quarterback.
 

BaseballJones

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I love Mac as much or more than anyone here. But he’s gonna have some rough outings. We need to prepare ourselves for that. One of them might just be week one here.
 

Cotillion

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(not that he's Brady) but think back to those first couple of years with Brady.... Brady looked very mortal and fans would bemoan the "dink and dunk" offense. Going to be some clunker games. Lots of growing pains. Looks like Mac is showing all the right traits for getting through it. Now it's time to see if he can adjust to the NFL... should be an exciting year, and the upside is pretty high on Mac as being a good QB in year 1.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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So a top 3 rookie season all time should be a reasonable benchmark? I feel like this board will potentially explode if Mac looks like a rookie quarterback.
Neither of those guys started 16 games, let alone 17. If Mac Jones makes all of his starts, I don't see why predicting a 63% completion rate, 3000 yards, 25/15 TD/INT is outlandish over a 17-game season. Those are Jared Goff numbers. Numbers that Kirk Cousins beat last season. Do I think Mac Jones, in this offense and with this coaching staff, is capable of hitting those benchmarks? Yes, I do.
 

Jimbodandy

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I love Mac as much or more than anyone here. But he’s gonna have some rough outings. We need to prepare ourselves for that. One of them might just be week one here.
The GOAT went 9-7 and tied Mark Brunell in QB rating in year two as a starter. There will be learning curve. And there will be some reaction posts.
 

Marciano490

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Neither of those guys started 16 games, let alone 17. If Mac Jones makes all of his starts, I don't see why predicting a 63% completion rate, 3000 yards, 25/15 TD/INT is outlandish over a 17-game season. Those are Jared Goff numbers. Numbers that Kirk Cousins beat last season. Do I think Mac Jones, in this offense and with this coaching staff, is capable of hitting those benchmarks? Yes, I do.
If it makes you feel better, Yahoo fantasy is predicting 3,700 yards and 39 TDs.
 

Harry Hooper

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Mac does get the benefit of 2 weeks to prepare for his regular season debut.
 

JM3

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3,700 yards isn't that crazy. 8 rookie QBs have thrown for more.

39 TDs is quite the hot take, though...

Most all time for a rookie:

1) Herbert 31
2) Baker 27
3T) RW & PM 26

Of course, Daniel Jones had 3,027 yards & 24 TDs (5th all time) & 12 INTs in 13 games, so if Mac could be on that pace, but without the 18 fumbles, that would be a pretty realistic upside target.

Over 17 games that's 3,958/31/16.
 

Cotillion

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200 yards/game passing is 3400 yards for the season...

The hapless Jets (ignore Baltimore as they were a bit of an outlier) were at 174.8 last year.

Over 17 games... ~2972

just replicating New England from 2020 gets Mac... 3070
 

JM3

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The other thing to keep in mind, though, is that assumes health for the season. Only 18 QBs threw for over 3k yards last year, in large part because only 13 started all 16 games (of the 13 who started all 16, Baker had the least passing yards with 3,563).
 

wiffleballhero

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In the simulacrum
Brady looked very mortal and fans would bemoan the "dink and dunk" offense.

At least for me, I'm way less inclined to be anxious about only getting short yardage from my QB than I was with the transition from Bledsoe to Brady. I'd assume the New England fanbase is well conditioned to take Mac's successes where they come and not look for Favre behavior out of him.

But back in the day I was probably guilty of some of this moaning, and it maybe says a lot about how little I knew about football at the time, but even being really amazed by the Brady story in the first year or so, it was sort of hard to shake the sense that it used to be awesome to watch Bledsoe just absolutely power balls over enormous distances. I wanted that still and I even sort of remember thinking, in the Carolina Super Bowl, "how can we keep pace with a team that has a guy like Jake Delhomme and that huge arm!" Ha, ha (IIRC, Delhomme didn't have much of an arm either.)

So much for that. I'll take my check downs from now until the end of time.
 

Cotillion

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The other factor is that the screen game should get a huge boost from the no below the knee blocking rule. So corners will find themselves 1-on-1 with Lineman and not have the option to sweep the legs out from under them. Allowing screens to go for longer on average. There is a real chance for the Pats to exploit the hell out of the new rule with their above average (if i recall correctly) lineman.
 

tims4wins

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I would wager that Mac’s stats look much more like Brady’s 2002-2006 stats (average of 3,743 yards, 25.8 TD, 13.2 INT) than his 2001 stats (2,843 yards, 18 TD, 12 INT in 14+ games).

A couple reasons:
Rookie Mac is better prepared / equipped than 2001 Brady (almost all rookie QBs are now)
Mac has better weapons and O-line than 2001 Brady
In general passing is much easier now
 

rodderick

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(not that he's Brady) but think back to those first couple of years with Brady.... Brady looked very mortal and fans would bemoan the "dink and dunk" offense. Going to be some clunker games. Lots of growing pains. Looks like Mac is showing all the right traits for getting through it. Now it's time to see if he can adjust to the NFL... should be an exciting year, and the upside is pretty high on Mac as being a good QB in year 1.
Brady made the Pro Bowl in 2001, led the league in TDs in 2002 and received an MVP vote in 2003. He was a solid top 8 QB after his first couple of years as a starter. If Mac ever becomes that guy at any point in his career we should be over the moon.
 

Super Nomario

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Yup. The calculator app tells me even 3,700 yards is just a measly 215ish per game. The average QB (well, team) has thrown for between 230-240 per game over the past decade according to this website I’m linking to so that I too may be a stats-based poster:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm
A lot is going to come down to the volume of the Pats passing attack. They were 31st in pass attempts last year. Cam only threw the ball 368 times; to get 3700 yards throwing that little, you'd have to have the most efficient passing season ever. I assume they will be somewhat pass-happier than that in 2021, but I expect them to throw less than average, maybe significantly less.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Bedard with his coaches tape analysis of game 3.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/09/07/patriots-quarterback-newton-jones-competition-giants

He highlights one play in particular (with video) as the case for why Mac should start:
3-4-NE 47 (9:30) (Shotgun) M.Jones pass incomplete deep middle to K.Wilkerson.
PENALTY on NYG-J.Bradberry, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at NE 47 - No Play. X5


1.96 seconds

If you were Josh McDaniels and you had one play to take to Bill Belichick to make your case as to why Jones should be the opening-day starter, this would be it.

Remember how Newton handled obvious pressure earlier in the game (let alone last season)? Compare it to this play.

On this play, Jones:
  • Used a dummy snap count to get the Giants to show their pressure look;
  • Changed the Mike identification and told Devin Asiasi to stay in to block;
  • Changed Kristian Wilkerson's route;
  • Changed the routes on the left side of the formation.
Asiasi doesn't block this correctly (I don't think) and Jones doesn't make a great throw (if Wilkerson ran the route properly) to complete this pass without the defensive hold, but Jones used the tools at his disposal in this offense to counter the defense, and that hasn't been seen since the former starting QB.
In his morning postgame interviews, Brady used to talk about wanting to never run a play the defense was ready for. These adjustments are part of how Brady avoided that, and Jones is already doing the same (or at least trying to), whereas Newton did not.

He also highlights how, compared to Newton, Mac makes fewer below average plays and more above average ones:
Passes graded below average (Giants game)

Newton 4 of 5 (80 percent)
Jones 5 of 21 (23.8 percent)

Passes graded below average (3 games)

Newton 11 of 21 (52.4 percent)
Jones 11 of 64 (17.2 percent)

Passes graded above average (Giants game)

Newton 1 of 5 (20 percent)
Jones 10 of 21 (47.6 percent)

Passes graded above average (3 games)

Newton 6 of 21 (28.6 percent)
Jones 27 of 64 (42.2 percent)
If you are thinking from the perspective of "game manager," it stands out that Jones got three times as many plays and had the same number of blow average ones.
 

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I watched his Wednesday press conference and it is still shocking to me how young he is, and how thin he is. I do like how he answers every question by reiterating part of the question and just saying he is one of 11 guys who each needs to do his job.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I watched his Wednesday press conference and it is still shocking to me how young he is, and how thin he is. I do like how he answers every question by reiterating part of the question and just saying he is one of 11 guys who each needs to do his job.
Was he like this (in terms of answering press questions) at Alabama? It is certainly the Patriot MO.
 

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Yes.

It’s mentioned somewhere else in this thread, but he’s got a degree in Communication from Alabama (and Saban Academy), so I’m sure he’s both familiar and comfortable with the process and expectations.
 

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