The Mallett, Hoyer, Cassel, Zolak, Tebow thread: Who's the New Number 2?

InstaFace

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I mean, it'll be Hoyer.

But it'd be pretty cool if it were Kaepernick on the vet minimum or close to it. Send him out for week 17 to lay waste to the Jets.
 

joe dokes

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I mean, it'll be Hoyer.

But it'd be pretty cool if it were Kaepernick on the vet minimum or close to it. Send him out for week 17 to lay waste to the Jets.
Or solely to play the role of Alex Smith on the scout team before the AFCCG.
 

InstaFace

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It might be unrealistic for non-football reasons or even for team-fit reasons. But Kaepernick would have every reason in the world to take a half-season show-me deal, on whatever terms. Especially in a situation where nobody could question that the deal, and his performance, was 100% about football.
 

Hoya81

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There’s some additional interest in Hoyer that may complicate things a bit.
 

Ralphwiggum

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If Hoyer goes elsewhere and they don't bring in Kaep, I'll be extremely disappointed. Kaep is better that what most teams have as a backup QB and probably better than some of the starters. It would be an unpopular move with a segment of the fan base, but since when has BB given a shit about that if the move is the right football move?
 

Super Nomario

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Hoyer seems like the obvious answer, but it's worth noting that he hasn't played for the Patriots since 2011, which is a long time. He also never played for Josh McDaniels, though O'Brien's system is certainly going to have overlap.
 

Sportsbstn

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It will be Hoyer. Brady with Hoyer backing him up is the best option by far especially for the remainder of this year
 

loshjott

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There’s some additional interest in Hoyer that may complicate things a bit.


✔@RossTuckerNFL

Schefter said Patriots want Hoyer but he got calls from two other teams last night. Hope they have a back-up back-up plan.


Unless someone else wants Hoyer to start, what's the upside for him going elsewhere? I doubt someone else would offer substantially more $ as a back up than Pats would.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Well for one Hoyer might actually want to play, and another team with interest in him as a backup might have a shakier starting QB situation.

Beyond that I would assume this would come down to money. The Pats could have traded for Hoyer if they wanted him that badly, but they valued the Bennett comp pick more. If I am Hoyer why would I give the Pats preference over another team that would pay me more?
 

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Schefter said Patriots want Hoyer but he got calls from two other teams last night. Hope they have a back-up back-up plan.


Unless someone else wants Hoyer to start, what's the upside for him going elsewhere? I doubt someone else would offer substantially more $ as a back up than Pats would.
If a team is looking to bring in Hoyer it's probably a shaky situation where he has a shot to become the starter. He's thinking about his next deal, playing decently for a bad team is better for him than riding the bench for a good one.
 

DJnVa

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Should be Kaepernick but the organization is gutless and won’t do that. Their buddy 45 wouldn’t like that signing so I guess Hoyer. But I hope it’s Kap. We know what both him and Hoyer can do and Kap by far has the much bigger upside. The guy threw 16 TDS and only 4 picks last year. He’s unfairly blackballed because he’s standing up for social justice. It’s BS
Kaep played in a completely different system--do you think, if something happened to Brady, that Kaep--in like week 10, would be a good fit?

Offseason maybe bring him in, see how it goes--but in-season? It seems there are reasons beyond the politics of it.

But, rage on.
 

Cellar-Door

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Kaep played in a completely different system--do you think, if something happened to Brady, that Kaep--in like week 10, would be a good fit?

Offseason maybe bring him in, see how it goes--but in-season? It seems there are reasons beyond the politics of it.

But, rage on.
I think he'd be able to pick up a good chunk quickly , plus they can add some RO packages like they did for Brissett.

Also... Brian Hoyer and everyone else available are garbage and have no chance of being good enough to make a playoff run. I'd rather some shaky games mid-season with a real talent for the playoffs than a bad QB who knows the system.
 

Kliq

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Hoyer and Kapernick essentially put up identical numbers during their most recent stints in San Francisco. Hoyer is actually closer to his last actual good season than Kap. Hoyer has experience playing in the Pats system, while Kap is currently suing the league and specifically mentions the Patriots in the lawsuit. It's going to be Hoyer. Hiring a someone for PR reasons would be a most un-patriot like maneuver.
 

SoxJox

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Matt McGloin is available - and there's the BO'B-Patriots connection. :)

He's a free agent and has not played much in his brief career, but when he has he's shown at least some aptitude for the game and position.
 

dcmissle

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The Pats are many things. Gutless is not one of them. They do not care what anybody outside the building thinks. Isn’t that clear by now?

We may need a rage thread. Drew Magary is probably working on content for the opening post. Rocket fuel will come if Hoyer signs someplace else and Kap remains unemployed.
 

ManhattanRedSox

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Kaep played in a completely different system--do you think, if something happened to Brady, that Kaep--in like week 10, would be a good fit?

Offseason maybe bring him in, see how it goes--but in-season? It seems there are reasons beyond the politics of it.

But, rage on.
Kind of agree here. He hasn't played in a year. It's the same arguement of not looking to trade for Calvin Johnson's rights - he hasn't played in a year. And to bring someone in Week 10 in a high leverage position like QB who hasn't played and has no experience in the system just doens't seem like a good business move.

Kaepernick was a good QB, but plenty of other teams could use a QB so I don't see why the Pats have to be the organization that signs him off the street.

49ers.pressdemocrat.com compared Hoyer's last 17 games to, among others, Kaepernick, and Hoyer came out as statistically a better QB (and one with knowledge of McDaniel's system):

Brian Hoyer: 358-569, 62.9 completion %, 4,051 yards, 7.1 yards/attempt, 25 TDs, 7 INTs, 93.7 rating

Colin Kaepernick: 290-502, 57.8 completion %, 3356 yards, 6.7 yards/attempt, 20 TDs, 9 INTs, 83.9 rating
 

kwa1430

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Should be Kaepernick but the organization is gutless and won’t do that. Their buddy 45 wouldn’t like that signing so I guess Hoyer. But I hope it’s Kap. We know what both him and Hoyer can do and Kap by far has the much bigger upside. The guy threw 16 TDS and only 4 picks last year. He’s unfairly blackballed because he’s standing up for social justice. It’s BS
First, completely agree with other post that he plays a completely different offense. Second, why would the Patriots want that headache for a backup QB? Seriously, daily players would be asked about it. It is a distraction!! Organization isnt gutless but smart. Kap is going to win you a championship and if Brady goes down so does your season.
 

dbn

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Imagine if Hoyer signs elsewhere and the NEP make an offer to Kaepernick - but he declines it because of reasons. It would be the most soapy of all possible outcomes.
 

joe dokes

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Should be Kaepernick but the organization is gutless and won’t do that. Their buddy 45 wouldn’t like that signing so I guess Hoyer. But I hope it’s Kap. We know what both him and Hoyer can do and Kap by far has the much bigger upside. The guy threw 16 TDS and only 4 picks last year. He’s unfairly blackballed because he’s standing up for social justice. It’s BS

IF they were to start at the same point in July or March, Kaepernick's on-field advantage might be real. But if Brady gets Flacco'd next week in Denver, I'd guess that Hoyer would probably have a better grasp of things.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Since when do the Pats struggle with ignoring/minimizing off-the-field distractions? The move is always the best football move, regardless of the other stuff.

I can live with Hoyer over Kaep for the reasons stated in this thread. It's a close enough call and the organization's familiarity with Hoyer counts. If Hoyer goes elsewhere and they don't at least bring in Kaep for a workout that'll be hard to square with how the organization goes about these kinds of decisions in virtually all other circumstances.
 

InstaFace

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Matt McGloin is available - and there's the BO'B-Patriots connection. :)
At the rate he's going, so is Christian Hackenberg. Anyway...

From the trade thread:
Where is this narrative that Kaep is a great QB coming from?
2015-16 Hoyer was a better QB than 2015-16 Kaep in every stat except rushing yards.
Hoyer was much more accurate, threw for more yards per game, higher average YPA and more TDs, fewer INTs.
Hoyer sucked this year but he has an abysmal cast around him.
Hoyer is fine as a backup.
I tend to prefer DVOA, at least as a rate stat for QBs. Rushing is like 10% of their value; let's stipulate that Kaepernick is still as mobile as he was, and say that he only needs to be >90% as good a passer as Hoyer to be more valuable overall.

2012: Kaep 25.8% (#3), Hoyer -26.5% (N/R, 57 attempts)
2013: Kaep 16.6% (#7), Hoyer -10.4% (#28) -- T. Brady 10.9%, #11
2014: Kaep -8.4% (#29), Hoyer -5.3% (#26)
2015: Kaep -21.5% (#34), Hoyer -3.0% (#20) -- Kaepernick played 9 games, Hoyer 11
2016: Kaep -17.5% (#30), Hoyer 19.4% (#7) -- That's in 6 games, 5 GS for Hoyer
edit to add 2017 YTD: Hoyer -20.8% (#27)

Avg 2014-16, weighted by games started: Kaep -14.3%, Hoyer 0.0% (seriously?)

I guess I had no idea that Kaepernick was so bad 2014-present. That said, let's not sugarcoat that Hoyer is mostly dogshit as well when he gets on an NFL field.

The argument for Kaepernick would have to be "Tomsula and Chip Kelly didn't know how to use him. Belichick will simplify the playbook and get him to do only that of which he's capable." Which is plausible, but there's more than enough data to be skeptical about the odds.

Fun fact: Hoyer's profile picture on PF-Ref is of him handing off the ball to Lawfirm while on the Patriots.
 
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Toe Nash

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It might be unrealistic for non-football reasons or even for team-fit reasons. But Kaepernick would have every reason in the world to take a half-season show-me deal, on whatever terms. Especially in a situation where nobody could question that the deal, and his performance, was 100% about football.
Why would he do this here where he's only hoping for a Brady injury rather than a team like Cleveland where he could actually get some snaps? Does it help him to sit on the bench?

Look, I think what's happened to Kaep is absolute bullshit and he is absolutely better than numerous QBs who have been given chance after chance this year, to say nothing of backups. But he's not coming to the Pats.

First, football reasons, mostly covered above. Kaepernick has no experience in the system, Hoyer doesn't really either but he's closer and his style would fit much better. The gameplan if the backup had to play would be screens, runs, quick passes, play actions, not the read option.

Second, off-field reasons. Yes, BB doesn't care what anyone thinks and he'll do what's best for the team. Kraft's opinion doesn't matter if it would help the team. But it would definitely be a huge distraction (Tebow and Ochocinco is no comparison). This would be THE STORY in national news for like...a long time. And it wouldn't be easy to re-focus it to the team.

I think it's reasonable for BB to think Kaep's value (or, more importantly, the difference in his and another option's value) wouldn't outweigh that negative impact.
 

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He's not very good though. He's average to below average. He's got poor accuracy and no touch. He's completed less than 60% of his throws the last two seasons for 6.6 and 6.8 yards per attempt. The Pats are a downfield passing team and Kap just doesn't fit that system at all.
 

Average Game James

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Wouldn't Hoyer's contract with the 49ers likely have offset language, e.g. unless another team is offering him more than he was making with the 49ers ($2.95mn base) then there's no upside to taking more money with a different team? So agree with those who have pointed out that it's more likely to be about opportunity for playing time... Green Bay? Arizona?
 

j44thor

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They can simplify the offense for him until he gets up to speed. Again I’m not saying make him the starter or anything nuts. I’m saying he’s a very good QB on the street only because of his fight against social injustice which is a fight we should all be fighting. Make a stand against racism and make a stand against 45 and sign him. I haven’t watched a snap this year and won’t until he’s signed because I can’t support a league that will do this to someone based on his beliefs. Bill won’t let anything distract the team and will shut out the media. Let the man play.
Kaep is a below average system QB (a system run by few if any teams today) who walked away from 14M dollars.

He was never a good pocket passer and his 16-4 TD-INT ratio last year that you keep touting came in 11 starts. 1.4 TD per game is not good. Perhaps he would make sense as the backup in HOU or KC but both teams in the off-season were grooming up and coming early round draft picks hence no need for his services. Unless Chip Kelley returns to the sidelines there might not be a fit for Kaep. He opted out and didn't find a home for his unique skill set. Teams don't change their philosophy for a non-generational talent which Kaep is far from.

Put politics aside and look at the #s. He isn't that good and you need to build a special offense to get at best league average production out of him. It is easy to see why he is still unemployed.
 

GreyisGone

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Kaep is a below average system QB (a system run by few if any teams today) who walked away from 14M dollars.

He was never a good pocket passer and his 16-4 TD-INT ratio last year that you keep touting came in 11 starts. 1.4 TD per game is not good. Perhaps he would make sense as the backup in HOU or KC but both teams in the off-season were grooming up and coming early round draft picks hence no need for his services. Unless Chip Kelley returns to the sidelines there might not be a fit for Kaep. He opted out and didn't find a home for his unique skill set. Teams don't change their philosophy for a non-generational talent which Kaep is far from.

Put politics aside and look at the #s. He isn't that good and you need to build a special offense to get at best league average production out of him. It is easy to see why he is still unemployed.
If you get league average production out of your backup QB you would be ecstatic.
 

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The 16/4 ratio came as an answer to those who keep saying he's careless with the football. He put that up on an unbelievably awful team. Osweiler got $72 million to put up 15/16 with a very, very talented team around him, and despite the contract he's still in the league. You're telling me there's no place for a guy with those type of numbers?
 

j44thor

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If you get league average production out of your backup QB you would be ecstatic.
Not when you need to build a unique offense for him. Every other player on the team must adapt to a new offense.
How is that not a disruption in mid-season if you need to use him. He is a read option QB. Find the list of teams that predominantly run the read option and then find one in need of a backup. That is Kaep's market. I'll give you a hint, there aren't 32 landing places.
 

DJnVa

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The 16/4 ratio came as an answer to those who keep saying he's careless with the football. He put that up on an unbelievably awful team. Osweiler got $72 million to put up 15/16 with a very, very talented team around him, and despite the contract he's still in the league. You're telling me there's no place for a guy with those type of numbers?
Sure there is. But there are very legit football reasons why it wouldn't be a team like NE.
 

BaseballJones

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He's not very good though. He's average to below average. He's got poor accuracy and no touch. He's completed less than 60% of his throws the last two seasons for 6.6 and 6.8 yards per attempt. The Pats are a downfield passing team and Kap just doesn't fit that system at all.
Last 3 seasons, Kap vs. Hoyer, vis-a-vis downfield passing...

Passes thrown 11-20 yds downfield
CK (2014-2016): 88-205 (42.9%), 1609 yds, 7.8 ypa, 11 td, 7 int, 74.2 rating
BH (2015-2017): 92-173 (53.2%), 1582 yds, 9.1 ypa, 5 td, 3 int, 86.9 rating

Passes thrown 21+ yds downfield
CK (2014-2016): 34-111 (30.6%), 1250 yds, 11.3 ypa, 9 td, 7 int, 75.3 rating
BH (2015-2017): 23-79 (29.1%), 801 yds, 10.1 ypa, 6 td, 3 int, 78.8 rating

A whole lot of....meh right there.
 

j44thor

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The 16/4 ratio came as an answer to those who keep saying he's careless with the football. He put that up on an unbelievably awful team. Osweiler got $72 million to put up 15/16 with a very, very talented team around him, and despite the contract he's still in the league. You're telling me there's no place for a guy with those type of numbers?
What does the Osweiler contract have to do with Kaep? Osweiler was an admitted bust as a signing. Now holding a clip board for his original team.

Is there any proof that Kaep would play for the vet minimum at this point? He opted out, he wasn't cut. Robert Griffin III is no longer in the league and has a near identical skill set to Kaep, where is the uproar for him not getting a backup job???
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Os is still in the league. In fact he had no trouble getting a job after a second team gave up on him.

By all reports Kap hasn't even been asked what he was looking for in terms of salary. He got one "interview" with Seattle and that's it. No one's even gotten as far as to ask the guy.

RGIII has a destroyed knee, he's an entirely different case than Kap and I think we all know that. He was only able to play in 5 games last year and put up a 2/3. Kap is Dan Marino compared to RGIII at this point.
 

wnyghost

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In the right offense Kaepernick most definitely has a place in the NFL.

The questions that need to be answered deep in to the season are ..

- Is Kaepernick in shape to play?
- Will he accept a backup role?
- How much does he expect to make in compensation?

- Does the daily distraction overwhelm any possible benefits of having him as a backup?
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Unless someone else wants Hoyer to start, what's the upside for him going elsewhere? I doubt someone else would offer substantially more $ as a back up than Pats would.
Apologies if I missed this elsewhere in the thread, but if I’m a Pats rival (and there are 31 of those) and if I’m a team without a solid backup QB solution (and there are probably at least 25 of those), and I have an owner with a little hubris (there are plenty of those),why not pay Hoyer a couple hundred grand over the vet minimum just to keep him off the Pats?

Broncos? Colts? Heck, even with hubris aside it makes some tactical sense for the Steelers or Bills.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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If they wanted Hoyer as option 1 but let what's likely to be a pick around 130-160 be the difference, I would think they would likely have an option 2 in mind.

That's a small price to get your guy, unless you believe there is zero market elsewhere or you have a second option that is just as good.

Of course the alternative is hubris or miscalculation.
 

Sportsbstn

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Os is still in the league. In fact he had no trouble getting a job after a second team gave up on him.

By all reports Kap hasn't even been asked what he was looking for in terms of salary. He got one "interview" with Seattle and that's it. No one's even gotten as far as to ask the guy.

RGIII has a destroyed knee, he's an entirely different case than Kap and I think we all know that. He was only able to play in 5 games last year and put up a 2/3. Kap is Dan Marino compared to RGIII at this point.
What about Baltimore? Reports said they were ready to sign him till his girlfriend posted the owner depicted as a slave owner. According to Ray Lewis they would have been signed him within a day or 2.
 

ManhattanRedSox

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In the right offense Kaepernick most definitely has a place in the NFL.

The questions that need to be answered deep in to the season are ..

- Is Kaepernick in shape to play?
- Will he accept a backup role?
- How much does he expect to make in compensation?

- Does the daily distraction overwhelm any possible benefits of having him as a backup?
He might be in shape, but not week 10 shape
He should accept any role, if he has interest in being a football player first, activist second.
He should expect the minimum on a "show me" contract - which makes playing for NE a bad for business move for him. Brady doesn't sit out garbage time. It's not worth his time standing on the sidelines (no pun intended).
 

Super Nomario

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If they wanted Hoyer as option 1 but let what's likely to be a pick around 130-160 be the difference, I would think they would likely have an option 2 in mind.

That's a small price to get your guy, unless you believe there is zero market elsewhere or you have a second option that is just as good.

Of course the alternative is hubris or miscalculation.
Gotta be money more so than the draft pick. Per OTC Hoyer's 2017 salary (~3 MM, though Pats would be only on the hook for half that) is guaranteed and ~$3MM of his ~$4MM 2018 salary. Can't imagine they want him at that dollar figure.