The Mainboard MLB Lockout Thread

[BaseballJones]

I'm primarily using your discussion to ask the question (which I admit is a little unfair as you've been clear that you think players should get more), but your argument pretty much reads as "players should be happy they're getting paid to play a kids game, look at what a plumber makes" argument, even if that's not what you intend. It's pretty easy for everyone who's played little league to imagine the joy of being a MLB player, but I don't see any reason this shouldn't be switched to asking why the owners should make that much more. I guess it's not worth imagining being Steve Cohen or JWH? The answer is just "capitalism"?

I never said it's a kids game. I mean, it's a game yes, but these guys work their asses off. They deserve to get paid. I work at a D1 university with the athletes, and it bugs me when people think they have it so good. I mean, they do have it good - they get scholarships and get fed well and get lots of Nike elite gear (at least at my school) and they get all kinds of cool opportunities and they get to play a sport - but they also work unbelievably hard and so they earn it.

I am rooting for the players here. I want the owners to give the players more of the pie. I just push back on the idea that they're somehow not "getting well paid" when they're pulling in a minimum of $600,000 a year. That's more than the vast, vast, vast majority of even elite performers at the vast, vast, vast majority of jobs make. And if I can go back to my original post in this conversation (#572), I'll quote myself:

"I don't understand how this world works. It's a financial level I'll never be at, and cannot comprehend. I agree 100% - from what I've read - that the owners share the vast bulk of the blame here. They're billionaires squabbling over what amounts to rounding errors for them. They're willing to put the sport at risk in order to save what is for them a pittance individually.

I can't comprehend the players either though. And this is simply borne out of my inability to imagine life at that level of income. Ownership is wealthier than the workers. That's true everywhere. But I can't grasp being someone like Max Scherzer and being unhappy with the system. I can't imagine being Christian Vazquez and being unhappy with the system. Vazquez is a decent player who is in the last year of a 3-year, $20.3 million contract. TWENTY POINT THREE MILLION DOLLARS.

Again, it's all in my inability to comprehend what that figure IS. A guy who is 31 years old, with that kind of money. And willing to not play (and not get paid) unless he and his fellow players get more.

Presently, league minimum is $600,000. MLB is offering $615,000. The players want $715,000. I totally get why the players want $715,000. But, I mean, $615,000 a year is an incredible amount of money. Again, this is a ME problem, insofar as I cannot fathom making that kind of money, so therefore I can't imagine not being happy with that kind of money."


So yeah, this is just a ME problem. It's something that *I* can't fathom. *I* would be THRILLED to make $600,000 to play major league baseball. Doesn't mean THEY should be thrilled. Just that *I* would be thrilled. And thus I can't imagine being willing to let the game burn to the ground over this, even as a player.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

This is why the players shouldn't even worry about PR. Most everyone agrees in the abstract that the owners are more at fault, but at the end of the day most people resent young men for making tens of millions to play baseball more than old men for making hundreds of millions to manage their assets. Turn off twitter and stay organized/focused.

I wish removing antitrust status was even a remote possibility. So many of the sport's problems stem from a lack of competition and the stranglehold MLB wields over the professional landscape.

 

[BaseballJones]

This is why the players shouldn't even worry about PR. Most everyone agrees in the abstract that the owners are more at fault, but at the end of the day most people resent young men for making tens of millions to play baseball more than old men for making hundreds of millions to manage their assets. Turn off twitter and stay organized/focused.

I wish removing antitrust status was even a remote possibility. So many of the sport's problems stem from a lack of competition and the stranglehold MLB wields over the professional landscape.

Just for the record, I don't resent it at all. I'm thrilled that they get to make that kind of money and play in the big leagues. I've got a friend in the majors now - he's dealt with injuries and has had what can charitably be called a "modest" career, but man, he gets to play major league freaking baseball. Couldn't be happier for him. So for *me* it isn't about resentment. Just to make it clear.

Your antitrust point is an interesting one.

 

[SoxInTheMist]

Does it even matter who's fault this all is? I see this all the time, "the owners are doing such and such to shift blame on the players...", "the players are winning the PR battle to put pressure on the owners", etc. But what difference does it really make who is to blame? Is anyone going to make a decision on whether to go back to a baseball game on the percentage of blame on each side, even if it's 100% blame on one side? I never see "PR leverage" in any of these things. Whether or not I come back will be based on how much interest that I and my young kids lose while the game is gone.

 

[ifmanis5]

View: https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1499090716085170179

The 30 Major League Baseball owners are worth over $100 billion. The value of their teams increased by more than $41 billion since they bought them. Mr. Manfred: End the lockout. Negotiate in good faith. Don't let the greed of baseball owners take away our national past time.

 

[EdRalphRomero]

For what it is worth, I don't respond as well to Bernie's argument (which is probably not surprising as I am a capitalist). I think there is a much stronger argument to be made that the players salaries are artificially constrained. In a true capitalist system the players should be able to offer their services to whoever wants them, and sign whatever contract is most appealing to them. That MLB is allowed all these artificial constraints on the player's earnings (draft, rookie deals, arb years etc) does not allow the market to compensate talent fairly. So it is not complaining that billionaires should give more because of how rich they are or how much money they make as owners. It is pointing out that the billionaires are permitted, by the government, to engage in a monopolistic constraint on wages and that monopoly can be taken away.

 

[Oil Can Dan]

I for one would very much not want to be a 29 year old former middling MLB player with pretty much zero skills outside of playing baseball staring at a 30 or so year career ahead of me. Regardless of what's in my bank account. I don't understand what doors of any value would be open to me just because I used to play baseball.

 

[PrometheusWakefield]

This is why the players shouldn't even worry about PR. Most everyone agrees in the abstract that the owners are more at fault, but at the end of the day most people resent young men for making tens of millions to play baseball more than old men for making hundreds of millions to manage their assets. Turn off twitter and stay organized/focused.

I wish removing antitrust status was even a remote possibility. So many of the sport's problems stem from a lack of competition and the stranglehold MLB wields over the professional landscape.

I don't understand why politicians haven't noticed that there's a pretty big constituency that cares a lot about achieving a resolution here and that the antitrust status, which everyone in Congress knows is bullshit, gives them leverage over the industry if they care to use it. There's obviously a lot going on in the world but the fact that there is barely a mention of a baseball lockout in non-sports media is a sad statement about the state of the game.

 

[nighthob]

Leagues are trying to promote parity.

The solution that I suggested was to give the teams just out of the playoffs additional luxury tax monies. Corollaries of this that might benefit all would be to allow those teams to sign a veteran to a contract that would not be counted towards the luxury tax. Alternatively, give the teams closest to a playoff spot an extra compensatory pick. The trick is to give teams an incentive to win because right now, the incentives are to lose.

There are a few ways to get there, if MLB would just drop its draft fetish. Like making draft picks tradeable. We'd see fewer instances of teams using top ten picks on guys they consider signable. Or the Mets fucking over Kumar Rocker because they didn't like the options at #10 and wanted to roll over the pick. If they could have traded it they might have taken that route. They could also give non-tanking teams signing pool bonuses, both in terms of the draft and the international pool (and that might be a better form of compensation than draft picks for teams losing free agents).

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

For what it is worth, I don't respond as well to Bernie's argument (which is probably not surprising as I am a capitalist). I think there is a much stronger argument to be made that the players salaries are artificially constrained. In a true capitalist system the players should be able to offer their services to whoever wants them, and sign whatever contract is most appealing to them. That MLB is allowed all these artificial constraints on the player's earnings (draft, rookie deals, arb years etc) does not allow the market to compensate talent fairly. So it is not complaining that billionaires should give more because of how rich they are or how much money they make as owners. It is pointing out that the billionaires are permitted, by the government, to engage in a monopolistic constraint on wages and that monopoly can be taken away.

Totally agree. In a true free market the players would not be constrained by the rules, just like you and I can negotiate with any employer.

The current rules and the last proposals give so much more money to the owners that they can afford to shut baseball down over a tiny additional piece of revenue.

 

[RIFan]

I for one would very much not want to be a 29 year old former middling MLB player with pretty much zero skills outside of playing baseball staring at a 30 or so year career ahead of me. Regardless of what's in my bank account. I don't understand what doors of any value would be open to me just because I used to play baseball.

A lot of doors are opened for anyone who makes it to the show. There won't be a shortage of people who want to engage with a former MLB'er even if it is just to hear stories of "what was David Ortiz really like". They will get opportunities not otherwise available to someone their age. This is especially true with the continued monetization of youth sports. Plenty of organizations would love to have a "former MLB'er" on staff in some capacity. Whether or not they have any appreciable skills to take advantage of the opportunities and develop a second career is a separate issue.

 

[Oil Can Dan]

A lot of doors are opened for anyone who makes it to the show. There won't be a shortage of people who want to engage with a former MLB'er even if it is just to hear stories of "what was David Ortiz really like". They will get opportunities not otherwise available to someone their age. This is especially true with the continued monetization of youth sports. Plenty of organizations would love to have a "former MLB'er" on staff in some capacity. Whether or not they have any appreciable skills to take advantage of the opportunities and develop a second career is a separate issue.

But that’s my point. I’m skeptical that they have the skills to maintain any non-baseball related job. So we’re talking about a 29th year old with no experience and no skill set outside of playing baseball competing for jobs against others that do. Not great Bob.

I’ll grant you that if we’re talking about a baseball coach at the high school or college level then sure, that could work. Although coaching is very different than playing. And I’ll grant you that many many people would love to hang out or talk with lots of these guys. But if you’re hiring someone you probably care most about the person doing well in the role a lot more than antidotes about MLB. And this hypothetical 29 year old isn’t likely getting that job.

 

[Captaincoop]

But that’s my point. I’m skeptical that they have the skills to maintain any non-baseball related job. So we’re talking about a 29th year old with no experience and no skill set outside of playing baseball competing for jobs against others that do. Not great Bob.

I’ll grant you that if we’re talking about a baseball coach at the high school or college level then sure, that could work. Although coaching is very different than playing. And I’ll grant you that many many people would love to hang out or talk with lots of these guys. But if you’re hiring someone you probably care most about the person doing well in the role a lot more than antidotes about MLB. And this hypothetical 29 year old isn’t likely getting that job.

I think you're underestimating the average baseball player and overestimating what it takes to perform a lot of jobs.

I can tell you that there are former MLB players (along with former pro athletes and former high profile college athletes) all over the place making money in sales roles because they can get meetings that others can't. That's a single example but it covers a lot of people.

 

[Oil Can Dan]

I mean if people are taking sales meetings because it’s Kevin Plawecki instead of John Doe then I concede.

 

[Marceline]

What exactly are we arguing about here? MLB players can get lucrative jobs as salespeople after they're done with baseball, therefore they shouldn't be paid what they'd be worth under a free market system? I'm not really following the logic on that one.

 

[Captaincoop]

What exactly are we arguing about here? MLB players can get lucrative jobs as salespeople after they're done with baseball, therefore they shouldn't be paid what they'd be worth under a free market system? I'm not really following the logic on that one.

No, just that MLB players aren't doomed to be indigent after their playing careers end.

 

[Marceline]

No, just that MLB players aren't doomed to be indigent after their playing careers end.

They aren't doomed to be indigent because they can get sales jobs...ok. How does that connect to them being underpaid now?

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

A lot of doors are opened for anyone who makes it to the show. There won't be a shortage of people who want to engage with a former MLB'er even if it is just to hear stories of "what was David Ortiz really like". They will get opportunities not otherwise available to someone their age. This is especially true with the continued monetization of youth sports. Plenty of organizations would love to have a "former MLB'er" on staff in some capacity. Whether or not they have any appreciable skills to take advantage of the opportunities and develop a second career is a separate issue.

If you're hiring for a position at your work and Cesar Crespo or Scott Sauerback came in, versus someone with actual experience (experience that they received in the real world while they weren't playing baseball); who are you going to hire?

And for youth sports, how much does a coach bring in a year? I have no idea, but it's not approaching even a quarter of what the minimum is.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

No, just that MLB players aren't doomed to be indigent after their playing careers end.

Who the fuck is arguing that?

They've spent much of their lives pursuing a baseball career. They should be able to make as much money as they can doing that job before they're forced into another career.

 

[Captaincoop]

Who the fuck is arguing that?

They've spent much of their lives pursuing a baseball career. They should be able to make as much money as they can doing that job before they're forced into another career.

No one is arguing with that. This discussion stemmed from someone above who said that players have to make enough money playing baseball to live on for the rest of their lives. Which is not true.

This lockout needs to end, this thread is already quite a drag and is likely to get worse and worse.

 

[BaseballJones]

But that’s my point. I’m skeptical that they have the skills to maintain any non-baseball related job. So we’re talking about a 29th year old with no experience and no skill set outside of playing baseball competing for jobs against others that do. Not great Bob.

I’ll grant you that if we’re talking about a baseball coach at the high school or college level then sure, that could work. Although coaching is very different than playing. And I’ll grant you that many many people would love to hang out or talk with lots of these guys. But if you’re hiring someone you probably care most about the person doing well in the role a lot more than antidotes about MLB. And this hypothetical 29 year old isn’t likely getting that job.

REALLY? "ANY" non-baseball related job? That can't be a serious comment. I mean, people get started in the work world all the time with very little experience or skills. They might have to start at the bottom but they can make a living. And if they're 29 years old with 5-6 years of MLB experience, then they should have quite a bit of money stashed away - presuming they do a decent job taking care of it.

 

[BaseballJones]

Who the fuck is arguing that?

Oil Can Dan seems to be, just a few posts above yours: "I’m skeptical that they have the skills to maintain any non-baseball related job. So we’re talking about a 29th year old with no experience and no skill set outside of playing baseball competing for jobs against others that do. Not great Bob."

They've spent much of their lives pursuing a baseball career. They should be able to make as much money as they can doing that job before they're forced into another career.

Nobody is arguing they shouldn't be able to make as much money as they can playing baseball. Well, except the owners, I suppose. Certainly nobody here.

 

[Captaincoop]

REALLY? "ANY" non-baseball related job? That can't be a serious comment. I mean, people get started in the work world all the time with very little experience or skills. They might have to start at the bottom but they can make a living. And if they're 29 years old with 5-6 years of MLB experience, then they should have quite a bit of money stashed away - presuming they do a decent job taking care of it.

Given the choice, I would have rather started my long-term career at age 28 coming off a couple of years making $600k and no relevant experience than what I actually did, which was start my long-term career at age 28 coming off several years making peanuts and with no relevant experience.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

REALLY? "ANY" non-baseball related job? That can't be a serious comment. I mean, people get started in the work world all the time with very little experience or skills. They might have to start at the bottom but they can make a living. And if they're 29 years old with 5-6 years of MLB experience, then they should have quite a bit of money stashed away - presuming they do a decent job taking care of it.

But none of this matters. Or shouldn't matter...to YOU. YOU need to realize it isn't about the future. It's about the players' earning rights now. To ME, YOUR words have read to me that they don't realize how lucky they are.

They have lost money lining the pockets of the owners. And the owners want more. And more. And then even more. When will it end?

 

[BaseballJones]

Given the choice, I would have rather started my long-term career at age 28 coming off a couple of years making $600k and no relevant experience than what I actually did, which was start my long-term career at age 28 coming off several years making peanuts and with no relevant experience.

Given the choice, I'd rather have started my long-term career at age 28 coming off 3 years of playing in the frigging MAJOR LEAGUES, making $600k, and having no other relevant experience, than to be well-established as a professional at age 28 in a different field, even the one I'm presently in and currently enjoy.

I mean....playing major league baseball was, like for literally millions of other kids, my dream. I'd have given nearly anything to get there for a cup of coffee, never mind to play for three years making that kind of money.

 

[BaseballJones]

But none of this matters. Or shouldn't matter...to YOU. YOU need to realize it isn't about the future. It's about the players' earning rights now. To ME, YOUR words have read to me that they don't realize how lucky they are.

They have lost money lining the pockets of the owners. And the owners want more. And more. And then even more. When will it end?

They ARE lucky. Or fortunate, I should say. No idea how much "luck" is involved, but damned straight they're fortunate. That doesn't mean the owners should get whatever they want. Again, I'm on the players' side here.

I don't know how much the players realize they're fortunate. I mean, most Americans are incredibly fortunate to be living in this country, given the freedoms we have and the opportunity to make a life for yourself. I doubt most of us think about that very often, and certainly don't think about it when we are struggling with work-related issues.

I think the same thing can happen with ballplayers. They get caught up in negotiations, in "winning" labor talks, in getting what they want, that they maybe forget that they're incredibly fortunate to be doing this at all.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY SHOULDN'T NEGOTIATE FOR BETTER PAY OR WORKING CONDITIONS. I don't know how to emphasize that enough. They have every right to, and I HOPE THEY GET MORE from the owners.

The owners, of course, forget how fortunate THEY are too. But since this conversation has morphed into being about the players, it's ok to just focus on them for a moment here.

 

[ColdSoxPack]

I'm going to retire at the end of this month. I haven't had an annual increase of more than 3% for decades. My social security check will just about cover my mortgage, health insurance, and utilities. I also want to keep eating. One of the things I am wondering about is whether or not I will be able to afford Extra Innings, Center Ice, and Sunday ticket. I am a huge sports fan. Watching the games is fun. Sports are not life and death but pretty close.

I do not feel sorry for the players or the owners, all of whom are richer than rich. Neither party cares about the fans, if you ask me.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

Given the choice, I would have rather started my long-term career at age 28 coming off a couple of years making $600k and no relevant experience than what I actually did, which was start my long-term career at age 28 coming off several years making peanuts and with no relevant experience.

Even if you were one of only 1,000 people in the world that did what you did? (Even less, if we take into account pitchers, catchers, SS, etc). If you are one of the 1,000 best clowns, candlemakers or cat breeders, I see your point. But we aren't talking about these types of jobs.

I can't believe that the minimum salary for the NHL is almost 150k more than MLB. And MLB's TV contract is more than double the NHL's. That should tell you all you need to know.

 

[Oil Can Dan]

Given the choice, I would have rather started my long-term career at age 28 coming off a couple of years making $600k and no relevant experience than what I actually did, which was start my long-term career at age 28 coming off several years making peanuts and with no relevant experience.

Okay. All I’m saying is that there’s a case to be made that, financially speaking, when all is said and done that John Doe, who got a college degree and got relevant work experience from ages 22-29, will likely have done better than Kevin Pawlecki, who didn’t finish college and looked to join the workforce at 29 with no experience but had $1m in the bank.

I don’t begrudge the MLBPA for looking to expand the league minimum one bit.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

They ARE lucky. Or fortunate, I should say. No idea how much "luck" is involved, but damned straight they're fortunate. That doesn't mean the owners should get whatever they want. Again, I'm on the players' side here.

I don't know how much the players realize they're fortunate.

Fortunate. Yes, sure, whatever. But not lucky. That is absolutely bullshit. (To be baseball players, not the being born at the right place at the right time thing...if that's the case, then we should all just take whatever is offered, I guess).

Edit: but I hope you understand that to a lot of people, saying they are fortunate (especially towards athletes) reads like...shut up and hit the ball.

And I highly doubt you know any of their inner thoughts. Curt Flood is a hero and this is his lineage. Many may feel insulted and\or trying to protect the next generation of players. Isn't there something noble in that?

 

[YTF]

I for one would very much not want to be a 29 year old former middling MLB player with pretty much zero skills outside of playing baseball staring at a 30 or so year career ahead of me. Regardless of what's in my bank account. I don't understand what doors of any value would be open to me just because I used to play baseball.

I'm on the players's side in this lockout, but this is largely on the player who hasn't done anything to ensure that he has skills outside of playing baseball. It's not on anyone but him if he's not been able to read the tea leaves, assess his skill level and start thinking about his future while he still has a job in baseball.

 

[Fishercat]

Not to any particular person, but I do think we should be sensitive to cultural differences and differences in acquisition in terms of the professional prospects outside of baseball. I can't speak for anyone else but I hear a lot of sales or coaching pathways and I kind of think of like...good old boys when I hear that, or baseball lifers. A fairly consequential number of people more affected by this are international amateur free agents who got small bonuses a decade ago and left their home country in their mid-teens...with substantial pressure from family back home to help. I am very hesitant to shame a person in their mid-20s for not having the requisite skills to land on their feet outside of baseball when they're conditioned for so long to eat, drink, and sleep the game.

Maybe not coincidentally, these individuals may also not be white, may not speak the dominant language of their current geographic region, may not have key educational milestones others have, etc

 

[BaseballJones]

Even if you were one of only 1,000 people in the world that did what you did? (Even less, if we take into account pitchers, catchers, SS, etc). If you are one of the 1,000 best clowns, candlemakers or cat breeders, I see your point. But we aren't talking about these types of jobs.

I can't believe that the minimum salary for the NHL is almost 150k more than MLB. And MLB's TV contract is more than double the NHL's. That should tell you all you need to know.

It doesn't tell you all you need to know, because you kinda have to know the average and the median salaries.

Four major sports in the US.

Minimum:
- MLB: $600k
- NFL: $660k
- NHL: $750k
- NBA: $925k

Highest:
- MLB: $37m (Trout)
- NFL: $45m (Mahomes)
- NHL: $16m (Mathews)
- NBA: $46m (Curry)

Average:
- MLB: $4.17m
- NFL: $2.7m
- NHL: $2.69m
- NBA: $8.25m

Median:
- MLB: $1.1m
- NFL: $860k
- NHL: $1.9m
- NBA: $4.02m

I got that data from numerous sources. Sorry to not link it, and my google skills aren't top shelf. But would MLB trade a higher floor for reduced salaries at the top? Not a chance. The NHL has a higher floor, but also a MUCH lower ceiling. I don't think in a bajillion years the MLBPA would rather have the NHL's pay scale than what they have in MLB. No way. Is MLB weighted at the top? Yes for sure. But so are the NBA and NFL.

I work with D1 football players for a job. Even at a bad football school, they all dream of playing in the NFL, even for one season. They just want to make it there. So many of them (and this is not a good thing, but it is what it is) spend all their time honing their football skills that they don't pay much attention to schoolwork, so they graduate with a degree in nothing special, but haven't even really learned much because they're barely skating by, hoping against hope that they can grace an NFL field just once in their lives.

They'd almost ALL prefer to play two years in the NFL at their rookie wage scale, then have to start their lives over making nowhere near that kind of money, than to not make the NFL at all.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I mean....playing major league baseball was, like for literally millions of other kids, my dream. I'd have given nearly anything to get there for a cup of coffee, never mind to play for three years making that kind of money.

This is because you are looking at a MLB career with the eyes of a child. MLB is a business, a cut-throat, no room for the weak business where unless you're Mike Trout, you're fighting for your job every game of every year that you play. Your teammates are your biggest competition. Your boss is constantly trying to replace you with someone younger and cheaper. It doesn't matter if you're "better", if they can put up 90% of your numbers at 30% of the price, you're gone. Now add injuries, locker room politics, flying all over the country and living out of hotels for 100+ days, not seeing your family, your manager has a hair across his ass and won't play you because you accidentally looked at him the wrong way.

Major League Baseball isn't the bucolic Field of Dreams that we though it was when we were kids. Like any job, there's a lot of shit that goes with it. The benefits (pay and other things) are terrific, but how many stories do you have to read where players constantly say that it isn't at all what fans think?

Let's say you have a three-year career making $600K per year, that's $1.8m total. And we're not talking about taxes, your agents' fees, living expense or any other things that come up. Even if you got to keep every penny you ever earned; sadly $1.8m is not life-changing money. You're going to have to work. But what are you going to do? Maybe you sell cars? But not everyone is a great salesperson. And sure the stories about hanging out with Big Papi might get someone to stick around the auto dealership for a few extra minutes, but if you can't close the deal; you're on your ass. Sales is harder than you think.

Furthermore most players, once they are off a MLB roster aren't immediately starting to look for work in November of their last year. They kick around the minors for a little bit. Maybe they play in the Independent League or go overseas after that. Suddenly that $1.8m has to augment the chickenfeed they get paid in those leagues. What if the player has a family? Kids? Sick parents? Being told that you're done at age 33 or 35 takes a toll on you. Especially after tasting the Major League life, you're going to schlep into a 9-5 every day and work with us?

MLB players are the absolute best at what they do. They are the reason why we wear hats, buy jerseys, go to games in 30 degree weather, sign up for NESN. They deserve to make every cent that they earn.

And I know that you're going to say, "For the 1000th time, I'm on the player's side" but let me tell you something, you don't sound like it.

 

[BaseballJones]

Fortunate. Yes, sure, whatever. But not lucky. That is absolutely bullshit. (To be baseball players, not the being born at the right place at the right time thing...if that's the case, then we should all just take whatever is offered, I guess).

Edit: but I hope you understand that to a lot of people, saying they are fortunate (especially towards athletes) reads like...shut up and hit the ball.

It reads that way, even when I explain it? Even when I say (going on like the 8th or 9th time now) that I am on the players' side here, and that I want them to get paid more? That comes off to me like my explanation is going in one ear and out the other, and people are just reacting knee-jerk fashion to my statements that they're fortunate to be playing in the majors and they're getting well paid for their efforts.

And I highly doubt you know any of their inner thoughts. Curt Flood is a hero and this is his lineage. Many may feel insulted and\or trying to protect the next generation of players. Isn't there something noble in that?

So when I say, "I don't know how much the players realize they're fortunate", you come back with, "I highly doubt you know any of their inner thoughts"? I mean, didn't I just admit that I don't know how much the players realize they're fortunate? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I don't know. I'd like to think a lot of them do. I am guessing that many don't because it's kind of human nature to lose that perspective, as in the example I gave. But I don't know for sure.

 

[mikcou]

It doesn't tell you all you need to know, because you kinda have to know the average and the median salaries.

Four major sports in the US.

Minimum:
- MLB: $600k
- NFL: $660k
- NHL: $750k
- NBA: $925k

Highest:
- MLB: $37m (Trout)
- NFL: $45m (Mahomes)
- NHL: $16m (Mathews)
- NBA: $46m (Curry)

Average:
- MLB: $4.17m
- NFL: $2.7m
- NHL: $2.69m
- NBA: $8.25m

Median:
- MLB: $1.1m
- NFL: $860k
- NHL: $1.9m
- NBA: $4.02m

I got that data from numerous sources. Sorry to not link it, and my google skills aren't top shelf. But would MLB trade a higher floor for reduced salaries at the top? Not a chance. The NHL has a higher floor, but also a MUCH lower ceiling. I don't think in a bajillion years the MLBPA would rather have the NHL's pay scale than what they have in MLB. No way. Is MLB weighted at the top? Yes for sure. But so are the NBA and NFL.

I work with D1 football players for a job. Even at a bad football school, they all dream of playing in the NFL, even for one season. They just want to make it there. So many of them (and this is not a good thing, but it is what it is) spend all their time honing their football skills that they don't pay much attention to schoolwork, so they graduate with a degree in nothing special, but haven't even really learned much because they're barely skating by, hoping against hope that they can grace an NFL field just once in their lives.

They'd almost ALL prefer to play two years in the NFL at their rookie wage scale, then have to start their lives over making nowhere near that kind of money, than to not make the NFL at all.

The NHL is not a comparable league in any way - that was kinda the point of the post youre replying to - its barely a $5B revenue business, reflective of it being a regional sport in the US rather than national. MLB is in excess of $11B and have basically the same roster size.

The players would almost certainly trade top end salary cap if the bottom was increased, given what the reports were from their proposals (relatively low luxury tax thresholds and focusing on arbitration, pre-arb bonus pools, and potential service time adjustments).

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

It reads that way, even when I explain it? Even when I say (going on like the 8th or 9th time now) that I am on the players' side here, and that I want them to get paid more? That comes off to me like my explanation is going in one ear and out the other, and people are just reacting knee-jerk fashion to my statements that they're fortunate to be playing in the majors and they're getting well paid for their efforts.



So when I say, "I don't know how much the players realize they're fortunate", you come back with, "I highly doubt you know any of their inner thoughts"? I mean, didn't I just admit that I don't know how much the players realize they're fortunate? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I don't know. I'd like to think a lot of them do. I am guessing that many don't because it's kind of human nature to lose that perspective, as in the example I gave. But I don't know for sure.

Why can't you realize you are fortunate but still want to get your fair share?

 

[BaseballJones]

This is because you are looking at a MLB career with the eyes of a child. MLB is a business, a cut-throat, no room for the weak business where unless you're Mike Trout, you're fighting for your job every game of every year that you play. Your teammates are your biggest competition. Your boss is constantly trying to replace you with someone younger and cheaper. It doesn't matter if you're "better", if they can put up 90% of your numbers at 30% of the price, you're gone. Now add injuries, locker room politics, flying all over the country and living out of hotels for 100+ days, not seeing your family, your manager has a hair across his ass and won't play you because you accidentally looked at him the wrong way.

Major League Baseball isn't the bucolic Field of Dreams that we though it was when we were kids. Like any job, there's a lot of shit that goes with it. The benefits (pay and other things) are terrific, but how many stories do you have to read where players constantly say that it isn't at all what fans think?

Let's say you have a three-year career making $600K per year, that's $1.8m total. And we're not talking about taxes, your agents' fees, living expense or any other things that come up. Even if you got to keep every penny you ever earned; sadly $1.8m is not life-changing money. You're going to have to work. But what are you going to do? Maybe you sell cars? But not everyone is a great salesperson. And sure the stories about hanging out with Big Papi might get someone to stick around the auto dealership for a few extra minutes, but if you can't close the deal; you're on your ass. Sales is harder than you think.

Furthermore most players, once they are off a MLB roster aren't immediately starting to look for work in November of their last year. They kick around the minors for a little bit. Maybe they play in the Independent League or go overseas after that. Suddenly that $1.8m has to augment the chickenfeed they get paid in those leagues. What if the player has a family? Kids? Sick parents? Being told that you're done at age 33 or 35 takes a toll on you. Especially after tasting the Major League life, you're going to schlep into a 9-5 every day and work with us?

Now wait a minute. This is a bridge too far to insinuate that somehow they're getting screwed because - God forbid - they have to work regular jobs like the rest of us when their playing career is over. If you are trying to get me to sympathize with the players even more, selling me on "omg they might have to reduce themselves to working regular jobs like normal humans once their career playing in the major leagues is over" is precisely the wrong way to do it.

Life is hard for ex-ballplayers who didn't make a fortune playing ball. But you know what? It's really frigging hard for a hell of a lot of people and trying to make the case that they should be paid more because the alternative is that they work regular jobs like the rest of society is about as bad an argument as you're ever going to imagine.

MLB players are the absolute best at what they do. They are the reason why we wear hats, buy jerseys, go to games in 30 degree weather, sign up for NESN. They deserve to make every cent that they earn.

Yes. They. Do. They deserve every penny. It's astounding to me that you are saying this to me as if I don't agree with this and as if I haven't said this very thing umpteen times now in this thread. They deserve every penny AND I HOPE THEY GET MORE.

And I know that you're going to say, "For the 1000th time, I'm on the player's side" but let me tell you something, you don't sound like it.

I don't sound like it to you because you're just focusing on the conversation about the players. If we stopped talking about the players and focused on the owners, you'd change your tune about it because I have all kinds of harsh things to say about them. Wanna give that a try? Or do you just want to keep talking about players and then claim that I'm against them?

 

[YTF]

Not to any particular person, but I do think we should be sensitive to cultural differences and differences in acquisition in terms of the professional prospects outside of baseball. I can't speak for anyone else but I hear a lot of sales or coaching pathways and I kind of think of like...good old boys when I hear that, or baseball lifers. A fairly consequential number of people more affected by this are international amateur free agents who got small bonuses a decade ago and left their home country in their mid-teens...with substantial pressure from family back home to help. I am very hesitant to shame a person in their mid-20s for not having the requisite skills to land on their feet outside of baseball when they're conditioned for so long to eat, drink, and sleep the game.

Maybe not coincidentally, these individuals may also not be white, may not speak the dominant language of their current geographic region, may not have key educational milestones others have, etc

You make some excellent points here, many of which I hadn't thought of. That said, in the scenario that Oil Can Dan presented I still feel that at that age the player must have a sense of where his career is going and what sort of window that he has to continue playing. IIRC MLB also has a program/programs for players to help prepare them for life after baseball.

 

[ehaz]

Not to any particular person, but I do think we should be sensitive to cultural differences and differences in acquisition in terms of the professional prospects outside of baseball. I can't speak for anyone else but I hear a lot of sales or coaching pathways and I kind of think of like...good old boys when I hear that, or baseball lifers. A fairly consequential number of people more affected by this are international amateur free agents who got small bonuses a decade ago and left their home country in their mid-teens...with substantial pressure from family back home to help. I am very hesitant to shame a person in their mid-20s for not having the requisite skills to land on their feet outside of baseball when they're conditioned for so long to eat, drink, and sleep the game.

Maybe not coincidentally, these individuals may also not be white, may not speak the dominant language of their current geographic region, may not have key educational milestones others have, etc

Yermin Mercedes is a good example of this. He was the best hitter in baseball in April and the feel good story of the year on an upstart White Sox team. Demoted by July. Signed out of the Dominican Republic as a 17 year old for $20k, made minimum wage (likely less) bouncing around the minors and independent leagues for a decade, and was paid ~$250k for the time he spent in the majors last year before being demoted back to the minors. Nice chunk of change, but there is zero guarantee he ever makes it back to the big leagues.

 

[BaseballJones]

Why can't you realize you are fortunate but still want to get your fair share?

You can. Now, tell me: what constitutes the players' "fair share"? And whatever number you come up with, how do you know that's their "fair share"?

 

[BaseballJones]

The NHL is not a comparable league in any way - that was kinda the point of the post youre replying to - its barely a $5B revenue business, reflective of it being a regional sport in the US rather than national. MLB is in excess of $11B and have basically the same roster size.

The players would almost certainly trade top end salary cap if the bottom was increased, given what the reports were from their proposals (relatively low luxury tax thresholds and focusing on arbitration, pre-arb bonus pools, and potential service time adjustments).

Would they? I haven't read that. I thought one reason they always wanted the top salaries to increase is because the idea is that those increased top salaries pull everyone up.

 

[jon abbey]

Maybe we could have two threads, one for BaseballJones and one for the rest of us.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

You can. Now, tell me: what constitutes the players' "fair share"? And whatever number you come up with, how do you know that's their "fair share"?

If we are just looking at the minimum here...I'm inclined to say the players have a better number than the owners. It's literally peanuts to them. How many minimum salaried players are there? I believe I read a tweet that said their were 30 last year...the players are asking for (at most) owners to pay an extra couple hundred grand a team. That seems reasonable.

 

[jon abbey]

View: https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/1498835551008481280?s=20&t=ENir2Gcdca0_C2SvH6Tb8w

 

[BringBackMo]

It's The Nation, so definitely a labor-friendly take, but an interesting article nonetheless.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/baseball-players-union-lockout/

Stovall, an African American, grew up in East St. Louis watching Cardinal greats Willie McGee and Ozzie Smith and wanted to compete at their level. Stovall’s highlight was hitting a ninth inning grand-slam home run for Montreal against the Atlanta Braves during his one year in the majors in 1998.

“I had my son late in my career, which is one of the reasons I decided to stop playing,” he explained.

After leaving pro baseball, Stovall earned undergraduate and graduate degrees, while working at Starbucks to help pay the bills. Today, in addition to working full-time as a Starbucks trainer, he also works as a part-time assistant baseball coach at Whitfield School, a private institution outside St. Louis, and runs his own baseball training program with about 40 high schoolers.

“I try to educate people that only a few players make millions of dollars and that most players, like me, never reach free agency,” Stovall commented. “I feel blessed for the opportunity I did have, but I obviously had to find another way other than baseball to make a living.”

What’s missing from these stories is that while the average major league salary is $4 million, the median yearly salary is $1.2 million. The average is skewed upward by the mega-salaries of a handful of top players. The 100 highest-paid players earn 52.4 percent of all salaries. Forty percent of players make the MLB minimum salary of $570,000.

The average value of major league teams increased to an all-time high of $1.9 billion in 2020, before the pandemic. Baseball’s revenue from TV deals with ESPN, Fox, and TBS grew from $1.55 billion in 2021 to $1.84 billion starting this year—a 19 percent increase. Meanwhile, the median player salary has fallen from its peak of $1.65 million in 2015 to $1.15 million in 2020—a drop of 18 percent.

 

[moondog80]

If we are just looking at the minimum here...I'm inclined to say the players have a better number than the owners. It's literally peanuts to them. How many minimum salaried players are there? I believe I read a tweet that said their were 30 last year...the players are asking for (at most) owners to pay an extra couple hundred grand a team. That seems reasonable.

But there's zero chance the minimum salary is the major point of contention, right? If the owners could get everything else they wanted but double the current minimum, they'd take that in a heartbeat, I'd assume.

 

[jon abbey]

But there's zero chance the minimum salary is the major point of contention, right? If the owners could get everything else they wanted but double the current minimum, they'd take that in a heartbeat, I'd assume.

Yeah, the CBT levels seem to be the major sticking point, which again is crazy to me as raising them closer to where they should be would not force unwilling owners into spending any additional money that they don't want to.

 

[BringBackMo]

I think the small market teams oppose raising the CBT not because it will force them to spend up to it but because allowing big-market teams to spend more will raise salaries for everyone. So Pittsburgh and Baltimore and Miami ownership *will* be forced to spend additional money.

 

[BringBackMo]

I mean, what's staggering is not that salaries aren't going up in line with revenues, or are stagnating despite growing revenues--it's that salaries are actually going down despite growing revenues. The median salary is 18 percent lower today than it was in 2015, according to that Nation article. I can't believe that people here are arguing that players should accept that.