The LA Teams 2022-2023
- Thread starter ElUno20
- Start date
So it was Lebron pushing for Eric Snow and “Big Z” to be his sidekicks?
Agree with HRB. Lebron wins titles, literally everywhere he goes. I’d love to have raised a banner and dealt with the fallout after, and people saying otherwise must just enjoy watching hoops without a rooting interest. Otherwise what is the point?
That said, the Lakers are really fucking bad and I’m enjoying it.
Nobody is saying teams wouldn't want to have LeBron on their team, just that as a decision-maker on who his teammates should be, LeBron has left a lot to be desired. Almost all parties blame him for the Russ trade, for example.
LeBron has cleverly leveraged his willingness to go to other teams and to sign shorter-term deals in order to constantly hold a sword over the heads of his franchises in order to get the maximum amount of all-in commitment from the front office, which has reliably stocked him with great supporting casts until he joined the Lakers. In later years, as he has wielded more power as basically an agent for other players, he has been exposed as a decision-maker by steering Klutch agents and old running mates to the Lakers when most of them have been bad fits.
LeBron has cleverly leveraged his willingness to go to other teams and to sign shorter-term deals in order to constantly hold a sword over the heads of his franchises in order to get the maximum amount of all-in commitment from the front office, which has reliably stocked him with great supporting casts until he joined the Lakers. In later years, as he has wielded more power as basically an agent for other players, he has been exposed as a decision-maker by steering Klutch agents and old running mates to the Lakers when most of them have been bad fits.
I never said that he didn’t win championships, just that he left the teams in a shambles after he left and it was unclear if he was directly at fault, or if it was the incompetence of the management that brought him in.
I would not be surprised if he would have won more if he did not insert himself in the personnel decisions.
I think after his early years in Cleveland, he got frustrated by inept management. Once he was LEBRON, he made a decision to never deal with that again. If you think of Lebron as the franchise as opposed to thinking of the jersey he wears, he’s a great GM. He milked it for all it was worth at every stop, then left them for the next green pasture.
I am really interested to see where he ends up when he leaves LA.
Self-aggrandizement is not management. Cronyism is not good management. Lebron will end up being the face of a franchise in Las Vegas and will succeed or fail depending on who he listens to. I don’t feel very optimistic.
He had zilch to do with the Cavaliers disaster. He was drafted by a team with the least competent front office in the NBA (that lost Carlos Boozer by letting him out of his contract when they didn't have the cap space to re-sign him) that "upgraded" to Danny Ferry, who proceeded to sign three ham & eggers (Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall, and Damon Jones), while sneering at the reporters that wondered why he hadn't just tendered an offer sheet to Joe Johnson that he'd signed three men that would outproduce JJ.
Meanwhile if the smartest guy in the room had just made the obvious move James would never have left Cleveland and the Cavs have more than the one title. But Ferry laid the blame for his complete and utter ineptitude on James and people lapped it up. Then to prove what he could do free of LeBron he went on to demolish the Hawks (he inherited a .600 team that he guided into the lottery within two years). Fortunately for NBA players around the league it looks like Ferry's reign of terror is over. After spending his eight formative years playing for that shitty management I don't blame LeBron for not trusting front offices.
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They lost Carlos Boozer because Cleveland made him a free agent so they could pay him more money earlier. He and his agent decided that, even though they had a verbal agreement to resign with Cleveland, they looked for and got a bigger contract with SLC. It was a huge scandal at the time and the agent was fired by his parent company for double dealing so they could maintain some semblance of credibility when dealing with teams and their other clients. Oh… and BTW, that agents name was Rob Pelinka.
But yeah, Cleveland’s management was awful, just like the Lakers. The only well managed team that Lebron played for was the Heat, and he left because he wouldn’t take less money so they could restructure the team and burnish his credentials as the GOAT by winning more championships with him.
Who the hell do you think Pat Riley is talking about when he talks about “The Disease of Me.”? The 80-81 Lakers is just window dressing.
In other words, I am 100% right about Paxton’s utter and complete incompetence. Because if the Cavs waited one more year they could have maxed out Boozer.
You seem to have left out the part where I said “Cleveland’s management was awful.” from the quote.
Bron ends up in Vegas being part of the new ownership group there. Post-apocalyptic Laker ashes left in his dust.
He has a couple of Wizard Jordan-esque seasons while he holes up in a massive penthouse in the Bellagio
https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/story/2022-10-05/lebron-james-own-nba-team-vegas
Kawhi has quietly missed his 8th straight game. He made the right decision picking the Clippers over the Lakers when you compare how much more noise surrounds Anthony Davis' health. Kawhi gets to cash those checks without any criticism.
It's Brandon Roy 2.0. He's essentially just using the clippers a gym membership at this point as all he does is work out.
Just awful. And he has no value so he just gets to hang around as a reminder of a failed run.
The free-agent Superteams like the Clippers, Lakers, Nets all scuffling along after several disappointing seasons. Organic teams like Milwaukee, Boston, Cleveland, GS (off to a slow start but obviously successful), Memphis are all thriving. Is the concept of the super team organized by stars joining up to play together dead?
What is notable is that the Lakers, Clippers and Nets are failing the last few years for different reasons, so it is hard to blame it exclusively on being a super team. The Clippers have failed due to health, the Lakers due to poor front-office moves in support of the top-end talent, and the Nets have failed due to ego (and health, to an extent).
It's nice to see them failing, but we'd look at this a LOT differently if Kawhi were healthy now on a deep Clippers team, and if the 20-21 Nets had been healthy (almost certainly would have cruised to the title if healthy).
We'd be talking about how only superteams and really really deep organic teams that did everything right (Celtics, GSW) had a shot.
Anyone still feel like the NBA is unfairly tilted toward large markets and small markets don't have a chance of winning? It seems like the rest of the decade is positioned for smaller markets to win more than the LA, NYC teams and even Golden State.
Sadly, the league considers the Celtics to be a large market team. So when they win five straight titles this decade, the NBA will still be considered unfairly tilted towards large markets.
If so, a little bit unfair. Kawhi has played 5000 more regular season minutes and 3500 more playoff minutes than Walton
That's crazy, in terms of how little Walton actually played, because Kyrie isn't that old and has missed a LOT of time.
I was thinking more Walton or Bernard King than Roy, too, as he's been *so* dominant when healthy (not that Roy wasn't great, but I think he was a notch or two below the other guys).
Still way too early to write off a return to health, imho — he's only 31 — but if he's really toast, he could definitely earn a spot in the All-Time "Might Have Been" starting lineup with with Pete Maravich, Grant Hill, Bernard King, and Walton.
He's had a completely unique career. Comes up playing on a juggernaut and grows into become the best player on a title team, frustrating one of the 3-4 greatest players of all time at the peak of his powers with suffocating defense and athleticism. Continues to mature, nearly wins the MVP for a 61-win team before suffering a devastating injury in the conference finals. Spends the next year in a soft-war with his team over his health, basically refusing to play because he didn't feel healthy, where he is eventually traded for 75 cents on the dollar.
He goes to Toronto and no one is quite sure what they are going to get out of him, but he delivers an incredible season and run through the playoffs and wins a second title and Finals MVP, joining an elite club of Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Reed, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Hakeem and Shaq as the only player to do that twice, and reminds everyone that he actually might be the best player of his generation. Then he LEAVES Toronto, a team where he would have been a contender every year, because he doesn't like the cold and instead signs with the Clippers along with Paul George.
The first season he plays great, but the oddity of the bubble gets the better of the Clippers and costs them what should have been their best chance at the title. He tears his ACL during the following season and misses all of the next season.
I wouldn't put him in a "what could have been" category because he has already accomplished more than most players, but he's also a strange, enigmatic player, capable of being the unrelenting killing machine that the very best players in NBA history can become, and also being seemingly unmotivated by any form of competitive fire. You can never count him out, but you also can never count him in.
This is amazing and practically reads like an NBA obituary. Which I hope it isn't, because he is a great guy to watch work. The last sentence is perfect.
What is interesting to note, IMO, is that just having 2 stars, and in some cases even 3, is not, by itself sufficient.
I remember (rightfully) laughing at Bob Ryan's "maybe they'll make the playoffs..." when the Celtics added KG and Ray Allen. But the league right now has a *lot* of difference makers nestled among team rosters.
And, to be fair, the Lakers won a title, the Clippers may have had their season not been interrupted by CoVid or subsequently Kawhi's untimely ACL (which are not predictable injuries), and the Nets probably get one had KD's sneaker was a centimeter smaller. But it does call into question whether that model is sustainable given the much better level of competition among the league's best.
Lakers 2-9 with a -8.4 Point Differential. And that's with mostly good health, until this new Lebron groin injury. They aren't fringe play-in bad, they are just BAD. Their roster 3-15 is the worst in the NBA and it's not that close.
Especially given the lack of upcoming draft assets, seems nearly impossible for them to do anything but trade AD (and maybe Lebron too).
Option 2 I suppose would be to staple their last remaining draft capital to RWB for a marginal upgrade this season. I actually hope they do that, but likely not the right move for them.
Especially given the lack of upcoming draft assets, seems nearly impossible for them to do anything but trade AD (and maybe Lebron too).
Option 2 I suppose would be to staple their last remaining draft capital to RWB for a marginal upgrade this season. I actually hope they do that, but likely not the right move for them.
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Just looking at the Cavs draft capital in this context and they don't have a lot of attractive pieces for the Lakers but who knows. What other potential landing spots exist for LeBron?
My guess is that Davis gets moved first if they do anything at all but there simply are no obvious fixes.
My guess is that Davis gets moved first if they do anything at all but there simply are no obvious fixes.
And they can't trade LeBron this year due to his extension. Complete shitshow; his value is falling rapidly as age happens.
The Lakers path is to trade AD and let Westbrook's contract expire. Essentially tank the season but open up space for 2 max contract signings this coming offseason. Or, they could sign one max this offseason, and then go after Jaylen Brown the subsequent offseason. So let's pull for Jaylen getting a 3rd team All-NBA nomination this season.
Realistically, LeBron is not going to want to wait, so I don't expect the above to come to pass.
Realistically, LeBron is not going to want to wait, so I don't expect the above to come to pass.
This is likely true, but that's an issue that could be fixable. What's not is that Davis and Lebron no longer look like top 10 players, and maybe bolstering their role players is enough to get them into the play in games but they have no shot at going deep into the playoffs if their top 2 can't conceivably be the two best players in a playoff series.
Lebron absolutely is a top 10 player, but AD isn't (and if he ever was top 10, it wasn't for very long).
Both would get nice returns when they can be traded and are super intriguing. Question remains whether anyone in la la land has the both the vision and courage to do it, and I fucking hope not.
He might be top ten, but it's definitely right at the very back of the group and possibly slipping out. His defense has taken a nosedive, he's not a very good shooter, and that's compounded because he's shooting more than ever on account of not driving. Yes, some of this is the product of being on a shit team (less space to drive), but then there's the opposing argument that he's just collecting stats on a bad team at this point. He's still great, but I'd take all of these guys ahead of Lebron this year, in no order:
Luka
Giannis
Tatum
Steph
Ja
KD
Jokic
Embiid
https://hoop-social.com/nba-team-market-size-rankings/
Two years ago, Milwaukee (#25) won the NBA title, and they're the best team in the NBA so far this year.
The top 2 teams in the East right now are Mil (#25) and Cle (#18).
Utah is #1 in the west, at #23.
After Utah are Phoenix (#12), Portland (#20), Denver (#15), and Memphis (#28).
So.......no?
(which is to your point, of course)
True Shooting % of the guys you listed:
Luka .604
Giannis .599
Tatum .651
Steph .685
Ja .593
KD .639
Jokic .676
Embiid .613
LeBron .518
Small sample theater, but one of these things is definitely not like the others right now.
Maybe he turns things around, but Lebron right now is a lot closer to the Russell Westbrook of the last few years (great counting stats, lousy efficiency and brutal defense) than the borderline MVP candidate that they need him to be. He has absolutely not played like a top 10 guy so far this year, and it's early, but he's only getting older (and now he's hurt).
They should absolutely explore trading AD now, and Lebron in the offseason.
They absolutely should, but unless you have a strong reason to believe that Lebron suddenly hit the moment in the movie where he falls apart like the Blues Brothers' car, I wouldn't read too much into 10 games' numbers. Guy has been an ~8BPM guy for each of the last ten years or so and was a .619TS last year. Maybe the dysfunction is in his head or the groin problem or whatever. If you're comfortable reading into this sample set, that's cool. I'm not ready.
If I were a Lakers fan, I'd want to break it up now. No question.
Usually when a 38 year-old starts suddenly looking bad (which includes nagging injuries), things snowball rapidly more often than they fix themselves.
I'd obviously be weary of writing LeBron off; but a lot of the issues exhibited by LeBron this year have been longstanding trends. A lot more threes, a lot fewer free throws, decaying defense, a slower burst, etc. It's not like he suddenly sucks due to SSS, he has had a noticeable decline for the past few years. I think the increased pace of the game has allowed him to keep his counting stats up which have masked broader issues in his game, issues that come out in crunch time in close games, which explains why his teams haven't been competitive lately.
There is a belief out there that for one game, or perhaps one series, LeBron can summon an incredible ability to vanquish his opponents. Sure he can't do that during the regular season, but he still has that ability to vaporize a team if he needs too. The issue is that if you dismiss the bubble, where he had months to heal up and prepare for the grind of the post-season (and even that was three years ago now) we haven't seen LeBron thrive in the post-season since he was 33 years old. That is a long time, and I'm doubtful that this version of LeBron would be up to battling Curry and the Warriors, Giannis or the Celtics in a brutal playoff series and still come out looking like the best player in the world.
There is a belief out there that for one game, or perhaps one series, LeBron can summon an incredible ability to vanquish his opponents. Sure he can't do that during the regular season, but he still has that ability to vaporize a team if he needs too. The issue is that if you dismiss the bubble, where he had months to heal up and prepare for the grind of the post-season (and even that was three years ago now) we haven't seen LeBron thrive in the post-season since he was 33 years old. That is a long time, and I'm doubtful that this version of LeBron would be up to battling Curry and the Warriors, Giannis or the Celtics in a brutal playoff series and still come out looking like the best player in the world.
The LEBRON metric shows him as steady for a half dozen years before tailing off last year. The DARKO shows him as steady through last year before tailing off this year, just like BPM. His TS was still well over .600 the last 2 years, so it wasn't just a counting stats thing.
Of course, it's not crazy talk that he's rapidly turning into a pumpkin. Maybe he ran out of unicorn blood and father time is at the door right now. Just saying that ten games doesn't tell me that, nor do the advanced metrics on the whole.
Of course, it's not crazy talk that he's rapidly turning into a pumpkin. Maybe he ran out of unicorn blood and father time is at the door right now. Just saying that ten games doesn't tell me that, nor do the advanced metrics on the whole.
Assuming their woes continue and setting aside the washedness of James, if you are the Lakers, what's your path here? Trade AD for draft capital and rotation players this season or next summer?
It feels like that return will be light for that objective, especially given fit and his salary.
Will that be enough to restock around LeBron?
It may be a bitter or impossible pill for the Lakers to swallow but they should be pretty motivated to trade James as well this summer assuming they can find him an acceptable landing spot.
Its also possible that they are all in on riding with him until the Bronny era rolls around but what does that do for the future of the club? Nice for the family but its not likely to push them back to title contender status.
They need draft capital and young players going forward - how do they get there without a fire sale?
It feels like that return will be light for that objective, especially given fit and his salary.
Will that be enough to restock around LeBron?
It may be a bitter or impossible pill for the Lakers to swallow but they should be pretty motivated to trade James as well this summer assuming they can find him an acceptable landing spot.
Its also possible that they are all in on riding with him until the Bronny era rolls around but what does that do for the future of the club? Nice for the family but its not likely to push them back to title contender status.
They need draft capital and young players going forward - how do they get there without a fire sale?
The washedness of LeBron is pretty relevant though: it determines whether they should be building or tanking. If they don't see a path to contending with this version of LeBron, then get as many picks as possible for AD and start trying to find hidden gems. The Pels swap this year, take your 2024 pick, and then you're free. Trade LeBron for something if you want, or keep him if you want to do a late career Kobe thing while still tanking just fine.
Say the Lakers go into yard sale mode, which teams would line up for AD?
Obviously a win now team. In need of an upgrade at the 5. Have the salaries to match.
These 5 teams kind of make sense: Warriors, Toronto, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Dallas
Obviously a win now team. In need of an upgrade at the 5. Have the salaries to match.
These 5 teams kind of make sense: Warriors, Toronto, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Dallas