The Heat is on, ECF here we come!

Euclis20

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The list of alphas to win NBA titles under the age of say 25 is pretty lean. It depends on how you view the Shaq/Kobe and Magic/Kareem relationships, and beyond those you've got Bird in 1981 (24), Duncan in 1999 (23) and Wade in 2006 (24).

*edit - I only looked at the modern era
 

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The list of alphas to win NBA titles under the age of say 25 is pretty lean. It depends on how you view the Shaq/Kobe and Magic/Kareem relationships, and beyond those you've got Bird in 1981 (24), Duncan in 1999 (23) and Wade in 2006 (24).

*edit - I only looked at the modern era
And the thing is, 2 years is HUGE at that age. I'll take my chances with Tatum at age 24 with what he's learning this year and will undoubtedly learn next year too.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don't think the Cs have put together 4 quarters yet in this series, which is promising in one way that if they do it will be fun to watch but scary in that maybe this group can't.

To my eyes, the zone really hurt the Cs as I was afraid. It's not just that they have a hard time beating it, but it makes them passive on offense (whipping the ball around the perimeter with no real purpose) and then they seemingly lose focus on defense.

Still, MIA needed two prayers to win this game - the KO 3 and the Dragic 3. I think Bos has the more talented roster but MIA is executing better, which has to piss Brad off.
 

DGreenwood

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The game 4 timing presents an interesting decision if Hayward is borderline for game 3. Do you give him four extra days to get ready but risk that you could be down 0-3 when he comes back?
 

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I don't think the Cs have put together 4 quarters yet in this series, which is promising in one way that if they do it will be fun to watch but scary in that maybe this group can't.

To my eyes, the zone really hurt the Cs as I was afraid. It's not just that they have a hard time beating it, but it makes them passive on offense (whipping the ball around the perimeter with no real purpose) and then they seemingly lose focus on defense.

Still, MIA needed two prayers to win this game - the KO 3 and the Dragic 3. I think Bos has the more talented roster but MIA is executing better, which has to piss Brad off.
And don't forget the Crowder prayer 4 point play.
 

Koufax

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A thousand times no. Hayward has the composure, the height, the passing ability, and court awareness to break the zone. Apparently he is the only one.
 

JCizzle

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The clip in this tweet is a good summary of game 2's second half. Literally 4 dudes just staring at the rebound.

 

BigSoxFan

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The clip in this tweet is a good summary of game 2's second half. Literally 4 dudes just staring at the rebound.

Fucking embarrassing. Completely inexcusable and the worst play of the bubble all things considered. 0.5 was just poor execution. This was pathetic effort with the game on the line.
 

riboflav

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I don't think the Cs have put together 4 quarters yet in this series, which is promising in one way that if they do it will be fun to watch but scary in that maybe this group can't.

To my eyes, the zone really hurt the Cs as I was afraid. It's not just that they have a hard time beating it, but it makes them passive on offense (whipping the ball around the perimeter with no real purpose) and then they seemingly lose focus on defense.

Still, MIA needed two prayers to win this game - the KO 3 and the Dragic 3. I think Bos has the more talented roster but MIA is executing better, which has to piss Brad off.
When totally healthy, maybe. And only maybe. They have more shooters and a more athletic inside scorer/defender.
 

chilidawg

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Really still just a few 4th Q plays from this being 2-0. Frustrating to watch, especially the above, but they're still right there at the end. Unfortunately 4th Q Butler >> 4th Q. Tatum.'

Brown not getting much love here but he came up big in the 4th with a couple 3's and a put back. Missed the chance to tie though, the kind of shot the C's need and just can't seem to make.
 

BigSoxFan

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Really still just a few 4th Q plays from this being 2-0. Frustrating to watch, especially the above, but they're still right there at the end. Unfortunately 4th Q Butler >> 4th Q. Tatum.'

Brown not getting much love here but he came up big in the 4th with a couple 3's and a put back. Missed the chance to tie though, the kind of shot the C's need and just can't seem to make.
Yup. Incredibly frustrating to be down 2-0. No business losing both of those games. We should all be here excitedly talking about Game 3 tied 1-1 with Haywood about to return. Ugh.

This team just needs a W. Get 1 and the others may come quickly. Win next 2 and make Miami doubt themselves.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Interesting skipping Monday on the alternating days schedule. Slow it down to match up with the west?
Monday Night Football.

Edit: Oooops didn’t see the last page of replies.


Crowder miracle 4-point play, Olynyk three point heave, Dragic step back fadeaway three.... I mean....it's taking some pretty unbelievable shots for this team to beat the Celtics, even as the Cs aren't playing very well.
I missed Olynyk’s shot but Crowders was a standard catch-and-shoot where Jaylen didn’t allow him to land and Dragic’s was his signature step back. It’s not like TL knocking down 3’s off the glass.......this is what the Heat have done the entire time they have been in the bubble.
 
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Imbricus

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Stevens needs some heat for leaving in Kanter too long tonight.
That was frustrating to watch. Putting in Kanter seemed like a brilliant move in the first half. But once the Heat figured out how to exploit him in the third quarter, Stevens should have put him on the bench immediately and kept him there. Definitely not Brad at his finest.

Also: I realize that Semi shot 38% from three during the regular season. But it's been closer to 20% in the playoffs, it seems, and the guy is clueless. He should never be first man off the bench.
 

Eddie Jurak

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“Imploding”. I’ll take being pissed down 0-2 over complacent when blowing two straight double digit leads.
Karalis agrees with you - said so on today's LO Celtics pod.

Jaylen Brown backed up Smart:

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/09/boston-celtics-jaylen-brown-on-marcus-smarts-locker-room-outburst-who-marcus-is-i-love-him-for-it.html
Jaylen Brown, for one, was not angry at Smart for his postgame outburst.

“That’s why we love him,” Brown said. “He plays with passion, he’s full of fire, and that’s what I love about him most to be honest. He has that desire and that will, and we need him to continue to have that. ... Who Marcus is, I love him for it. We’ve got to get ready to come back with that same fire and add it to Game 3.”
Rest of the schedule finally announced. Game 4 isn't until Wednesday.

https://stats.nba.com/schedule/
Had they won, it would probably have made a lot of sense to hold Hayward back until game 4. Now, I don't think thery have that luxury.
I don't think the Cs have put together 4 quarters yet in this series, which is promising in one way that if they do it will be fun to watch but scary in that maybe this group can't.
They have "put 4 quarters together" just once over the past 7 games, the game 5 win over Toronto.

Brown made some individual plays late to keep them in it. The team as a whole basically checked out at the half.
 

BigSoxFan

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They went from being up 17 to down 7 in basically 14 minutes of game time, all with the season pretty much on the line. Just a huge collective failure. Don’t know how anyone can trust these guys to hold a lead going forward if they are fortunate to get one.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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The clip in this tweet is a good summary of game 2's second half. Literally 4 dudes just staring at the rebound.

My jaw dropped with I saw that live. It’s like heads have been in asses since the Toronto G3 disaster ending. They’ve played a grand total of one complete 48 minute effort since that happened. Hopefully Hayward has his lift and his shot because they need him to be good if they want to push this to 6 or 7.
 

WayneHousieHOF

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It would be nice if Tatum got to the rim more. He did a few times in Game 2, but sometimes it’s like he’s looking for the off balance 3 or the really deep ball.
And the next time Theis takes a three or puts the ball on the floor I may break something.
Also, Celts do play great D for chunks of time, but then it vanishes at times, and it seems that happens in critical times.
The good thing is, even down 2-0 the series is far from over. I still think the Celts are the better team, which only makes these first two games all the more frustrating.
 

Strike4

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I don't think the Cs have put together 4 quarters yet in this series, which is promising in one way that if they do it will be fun to watch but scary in that maybe this group can't.

To my eyes, the zone really hurt the Cs as I was afraid. It's not just that they have a hard time beating it, but it makes them passive on offense (whipping the ball around the perimeter with no real purpose) and then they seemingly lose focus on defense.

Still, MIA needed two prayers to win this game - the KO 3 and the Dragic 3. I think Bos has the more talented roster but MIA is executing better, which has to piss Brad off.
He's probably also pissed that his professional basketball team that made it to the ECF is having so much trouble with a zone defense, something middle school teams master, even after seeing it in the previous series as well. There are moments when they break through - some great plays inside to Theis and others during the Toronto series - but I think it's what is dragging the whole team down, top-down. It leads to fewer looks for the guys you want to get looks, then some lapses on defense/turnovers due to frustration, and then muddled plays when they are called for during important moments. They are still a young team.
 

BaseballJones

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The Thomas-Dumars-Laimbeer Pistons were terrific from 1983-84 (49-33) to 1987-88 (54-28, lost in the NBA finals). It took them six years to finally break through as a group and win their first NBA title.

The Jordan Bulls were terrific from 1987-88 (50-32) to 1989-90 (55-27) and actually made the playoffs in 84-85, 85-86, and 86-87 (albeit with sub-.500 records). It took them seven years from the start of their playoff run to break through as a group and win their first NBA title.

Sometimes it takes a team a while of banging their head against the ceiling before breaking through. Those Bulls and Pistons teams suffered numerous heartbreaks in the playoffs and maybe to their fans it seemed like they'd never get over the hump. This doesn't mean Boston WILL - lots of really good teams never did (the Barkley Suns, the Ewing Knicks, the Moncrief Bucks, etc.) - but this team, as Strike4 said, is YOUNG. Their two best players are 22 and 23. They've got only three guys who's 30 or older (Wanamaker, Hayward, Kemba, the latter two recently turned 30). Though it seems like he's been around forever, Smart is only 26.

There's TONS of room for growth for this team still. Even if this playoff run comes to a close sooner than any of us would like.

But I don't think it's over yet. I think they get that first win and then confidence returns. Miami is very tough and experienced. But I think Boston can still win this series. Obviously game 3 is a must-win at this point.
 

RedOctober3829

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The problems on offense are many. Most of the time they are walking the ball up the floor and are starting their halfcourt offense with like 16 seconds left on the shot clock. That sets the tone for the entire possession. Then, they’re passing it a couple times on the perimeter and either getting a screen or jacking up a shot.

They should be running the ball up the floor, moving the ball inside the zone, and looking to either drive the lane to score or kick out for an in-rhythm 3 pointer.

Miami is giving them fits in the zone partly because they’re playing bigger players at the top of the zone. Their length at the top is not letting the guards turn the corner and bothered passes all night.

It’s so frustrating to watch them right now. Miami is making all the winning-type plays at the end. The Celtics seem to fall apart when things start sliding the other way. Brad is currently getting out coached in this series.
 

NomarsFool

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That one sequence where Miami had like 3 offensive rebounds was also pretty tough to watch
 

Captaincoop

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The Thomas-Dumars-Laimbeer Pistons were terrific from 1983-84 (49-33) to 1987-88 (54-28, lost in the NBA finals). It took them six years to finally break through as a group and win their first NBA title.

The Jordan Bulls were terrific from 1987-88 (50-32) to 1989-90 (55-27) and actually made the playoffs in 84-85, 85-86, and 86-87 (albeit with sub-.500 records). It took them seven years from the start of their playoff run to break through as a group and win their first NBA title.

Sometimes it takes a team a while of banging their head against the ceiling before breaking through. Those Bulls and Pistons teams suffered numerous heartbreaks in the playoffs and maybe to their fans it seemed like they'd never get over the hump. This doesn't mean Boston WILL - lots of really good teams never did (the Barkley Suns, the Ewing Knicks, the Moncrief Bucks, etc.) - but this team, as Strike4 said, is YOUNG. Their two best players are 22 and 23. They've got only three guys who's 30 or older (Wanamaker, Hayward, Kemba, the latter two recently turned 30). Though it seems like he's been around forever, Smart is only 26.

There's TONS of room for growth for this team still. Even if this playoff run comes to a close sooner than any of us would like.

But I don't think it's over yet. I think they get that first win and then confidence returns. Miami is very tough and experienced. But I think Boston can still win this series. Obviously game 3 is a must-win at this point.

Unfortunately in the modern NBA it's not likely you're keeping a team together for 6 or 7 years to grow together. Once you get a good core together, you only have a few years to win before stars get frustrated and go pick a new set of teammates.
 

BaseballJones

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Unfortunately in the modern NBA it's not likely you're keeping a team together for 6 or 7 years to grow together. Once you get a good core together, you only have a few years to win before stars get frustrated and go pick a new set of teammates.
Yeah but if they can keep JT/JB together, that's enough of a "core" to keep putting different pieces around. They've gotta understand how young they are.
 

slamminsammya

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I love this. Draymond’s like, “you know what the Celtics need right now? Their best approximation of me.” I guess when all you have is a Swiss Army knife, every problem looks like it can be solved with a Swiss Army knife. Dude should definitely be a coach someday.
Exactly my thoughts too. I do wonder how much of an advantage the time off for the Heat was, maybe seeing the Celtics struggle with Toronto's zone. The Celtics on the other hand have had what, one practice to prepare for the Heat?
 

CoffeeNerdness

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They should be running the ball up the floor, moving the ball inside the zone, and looking to either drive the lane to score or kick out for an in-rhythm 3 pointer.

Miami is giving them fits in the zone partly because they’re playing bigger players at the top of the zone. Their length at the top is not letting the guards turn the corner and bothered passes all night.
In addition to this their passing has been atrocious the entire playoff run. Lazy, braindead, timid, and lacking in the basic fundamentals.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Marcus/Hayward/Grant/anyone who can pass need to be planted at the FT anytime the zone comes out. Maybe they still fail to execute but at least it’s something that might draw defenders away from teammates.

Can’t watch Tatum try to line up a step back three with two guys in his proximity anymore, while passing up catch and shoot opportunities.
 

lexrageorge

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The Thomas-Dumars-Laimbeer Pistons were terrific from 1983-84 (49-33) to 1987-88 (54-28, lost in the NBA finals). It took them six years to finally break through as a group and win their first NBA title.

The Jordan Bulls were terrific from 1987-88 (50-32) to 1989-90 (55-27) and actually made the playoffs in 84-85, 85-86, and 86-87 (albeit with sub-.500 records). It took them seven years from the start of their playoff run to break through as a group and win their first NBA title.

Sometimes it takes a team a while of banging their head against the ceiling before breaking through. Those Bulls and Pistons teams suffered numerous heartbreaks in the playoffs and maybe to their fans it seemed like they'd never get over the hump. This doesn't mean Boston WILL - lots of really good teams never did (the Barkley Suns, the Ewing Knicks, the Moncrief Bucks, etc.) - but this team, as Strike4 said, is YOUNG. Their two best players are 22 and 23. They've got only three guys who's 30 or older (Wanamaker, Hayward, Kemba, the latter two recently turned 30). Though it seems like he's been around forever, Smart is only 26.

There's TONS of room for growth for this team still. Even if this playoff run comes to a close sooner than any of us would like.

But I don't think it's over yet. I think they get that first win and then confidence returns. Miami is very tough and experienced. But I think Boston can still win this series. Obviously game 3 is a must-win at this point.
Everything you state is correct. OTOH, we can never really predict how long windows of contention will remain open. The team is young, but it remains a question as to whether the Celtics can take advantage of that youth and truly contend for multiple years, or remain Conference Finals fodder. Plenty of young promising teams have ended up in the latter category, including the vaunted Bucks.

The window with this team is not guaranteed to be all that long, either. The Celtics can, and should, be able to lock up Tatum until 2026 with an extension this summer. Brown will be around until 2024. But Marcus is a free agent in 2022; Hayward will likely be one in 2021, if not sooner; and while Kemba is locked up until 2023 or 2024, he's unlikely to be KEMBA! during this period.

Meanwhile, competing teams do change. The Nets will have both Kyrie and KD next season; I do think Kyrie will decline rapidly, but probably not next season. The Bucks may yet get over the hump. The Heat were operating under the radar this season, but they are not going away, and Butler has been the best player on the floor this series, and Bam arguably second best. Worse, Miami is one of the few Eastern Conference teams that is a destination for free agents, and they do have some flexibility to free up cap space if I am reading their cap situation correctly. And the Sixers shouldn't be counted out.

It's not all doom and gloom, obviously. The Celtics do have room for organic growth, and if Haywards opts out and resigns, they may be able to free up enough space to use the full MLE this offseason (don't quote me on that). There really are no Super Teams in the East. A lot of the league's best players are in the West, some due to free agency (LeBron, Kawhi), trades (AD, PG, Harden/Westbrook), others due to skilled drafting (Doncic, Lillard, Jokic, Steph). There remain uncertainties about how KD will recover from a serious injury at 32.

Still hoping for a rebound in Game 3; win that one, and anything is possible.
 

Imbricus

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I think one reason Marcus was yelling in the locker room last night is because Brad won't. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.
 

CreightonGubanich

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I love this. Draymond’s like, “you know what the Celtics need right now? Their best approximation of me.” I guess when all you have is a Swiss Army knife, every problem looks like it can be solved with a Swiss Army knife. Dude should definitely be a coach someday.
It's hard to disagree with Draymond at this point, but he's essentially proposing that the Celtics go back to what most people thought they should avoid at the start of this series - switching the pick and roll, which will lead to Miami hunting mismatches. It'll result in lots of possessions with Butler going at Kemba or Dragic putting Theis/Grant on skates. At this point though, Butler has been so passive, maybe it's worth trying to force him to take 25 shots.

Hayward's return would help, obviously. Another big, mobile wing who can switch unlocks that defensive approach a bit more. They could even play Smart, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Theis and switch everything to try to take Miami out of their offense. On the other end, as has been mentioned ad nauseum, they really need Hayward as an outlet to break Miami's zone.
 

BaseballJones

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Tatum vs. Butler so far...

Tatum: 25.5 pts, 9.5 reb, 4.5 ast, 2.0 stl, 1.5 blk, 44.4% FG
Butler: 17.0 pts, 4.5 reb, 4.0 ast, 3.0 stl, 0.0 blk, 44.0% FG

Tatum is owning Butler on the stat sheet. But Butler has made the huge plays late in games to help Miami to a 2-0 lead.
 

BigSoxFan

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Tatum vs. Butler so far...

Tatum: 25.5 pts, 9.5 reb, 4.5 ast, 2.0 stl, 1.5 blk, 44.4% FG
Butler: 17.0 pts, 4.5 reb, 4.0 ast, 3.0 stl, 0.0 blk, 44.0% FG

Tatum is owning Butler on the stat sheet. But Butler has made the huge plays late in games to help Miami to a 2-0 lead.
I really don’t want it to get lost just how fucking lazy that Kemba pass was that Butler deflected and saved. Up 3 with 3:44 to go and our $34M PG is making HS level passes at crucial moments. Just infuriating.

Tatum has been good but he doesn’t quite have the vet closing skills just yet. So close. The league will be in trouble once he figures it out.