Seems weird to put the location of the interview in the tweet. Who cares?
BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN
BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN
The HC Search
- Thread starter EL Jeffe
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The restaurants are definitely better in Boston than Patriot Place outside of Davio's.
I'd suspect that's the case and it's clearly a self-inflicted wound by the Krafts. It was pretty obviously a bad "aftermath" look, as though someone read the SOSH thread and said, "Um...."
I 100% think it was a reaction (whether ass covering or legitimate) to Albert Breer spending a good portion of time on TV and twitter ripping the Krafts for a sham process and basically saying that it is not a well run organization and the inevitable Vrabel hire won't fix anything. Kraft pretty clearly listens to press/fans and does not like bad coverage.
Leftwich and Hamilton interviewed at the same time with Matt Groh in the Delta Lounge at Logan so they wouldn't have to go back through security. Vrabel interviewed in Kraft's guest room where he'll stay the night so he's ready to sign the contract the minute the zoom with Ben Johnson ends tomorrow morning.
I like Breer but he’s going a little unnecessarily hard at the Pats. Hamilton and Leftwich are “flouting the Rooney Rule.” The Pats infrastructure is a “mess.” I’m not disagreeing that the Pats may be working backwards from concluding Vrabel is the guy. But there are reasonable alternative explanations to most of those things (you can’t interview any current coaches in person this week, the infrastructure has been the same for 25 years and worked pretty well most of that time).
I like Bedard less but he is right that the Krafts not wanting to lose out on their preferred candidate isn’t exactly a some miscarriage of justice. The whole thing is kind of a compromise.
I like Bedard less but he is right that the Krafts not wanting to lose out on their preferred candidate isn’t exactly a some miscarriage of justice. The whole thing is kind of a compromise.
The Infrastructure was primarily "Bill and Ernie do it" for 25 years, and it kinda stopped working some years ago, especially after Adams left.
I will also say I think it's pretty silly to argue that they can't do the same real process as everyone else, because they might lose the guy who has been unemployed for more than a year. You only lose him if he thinks your job isn't as good as another job, and in that case time doesn't matter. You can always tell him "check with us before you accept an offer".
Edit- I will say, Vrabel's agent has done a GREAT job of using targeted leaks to push Kraft, all the "ooh maybe he'll sign with the Jets before taking other interviews", "oh have to move fast Vrabel has gone from unwanted to the hottest commodity in the world", "Can't let Brady talk to him, he'll you his handsome hypnosis to lock him up".... lol, Vrabel wants the Patriots job, he wouldn't take another until either the Patriots are filled or all of the other jobs gave him an ultimatum.
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Eh, I dunno, we are process humping the shit out of this. A good process isn’t the goal. It’s hiring good people.
Vrabel is one of the top two candidates this cycle. The fact that nobody sniffed him last year is immaterial. He is going to be hired by someone and possibly in our division. I get not wanting to miss out on that.
I may be over indexing for “we need new blood,” but I’ll be damned if I don’t think we need to turn the page pretty damn near completely and get truly new blood.
There is a Davios at Patriots Place? Huh. I had no idea. I've been to the one in Lynnfield and thought it was excellent.
Given that RKK wanted to hire Bill when Parcels left but opted for Pete and then regretted it, do we think maybe he was leaning Vrabel last year but talked himself into giving Mayo a shot whether it was the contract clause or something else, regretted it and this time was like, "im not waiting 3 years to course correct?" Especially if he heard from Vrabel over the course of the season? Could it be that simple?
The suggestion is that he declined because he didn’t think the interest was legitimate, but rather a Rooney Rule CYA after the Pats kicked off their process by interviewing two black coaches who haven’t been in the league since 2022.
Given that RKK wanted to hire Bill when Parcels left but opted for Pete and then regretted it, do we think maybe he was leaning Vrabel last year but talked himself into giving Mayo a shot whether it was the contract clause or something else, regretted it and this time was like, "im not waiting 3 years to course correct?" Especially if he heard from Vrabel over the course of the season? Could it be that simple?
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Kraft has said that his defensive players (Milloy in particular) had commented after the 96 season how brilliant Bill was, but Kraft was wary of hiring someone he felt had loyalty to a coach (Parcells) that Kraft had felt had screwed him and the team, and therefore went completely outside the organization with the hire.
Mayo was different. Based on the reporting, he had gone behind Bill's back to Kraft in some of those meetings and Bill had shut him out, but he wasn't chosen as a clean break from Belichick at all.
My instincts based on how Kraft has operated the last few years is that he shared with Wolf the team's need for better coordinators in Mayo Year 2. And my belief is Wolf told him no one decent would take a coordinator job for a dead man walking coach. And Kraft pulled the plug. I think if there was a confidence that Mayo could have brought in seasoned veteran coordinators, he'd have gotten a second year with the Krafts approving the coordinator choices.
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Kraft has said that his defensive players (Milloy in particular) had commented after the 96 season how brilliant Bill was, but Kraft was wary of hiring someone he felt had loyalty to a coach (Parcells) that Kraft had felt had screwed him and the team, and therefore went completely outside the organization with the hire.
Mayo was different. Based on the reporting, he had gone behind Bill's back to Kraft in some of those meetings and Bill had shut him out, but he wasn't chosen as a clean break from Belichick at all.
My instincts based on how Kraft has operated the last few years is that he shared with Wolf the team's need for better coordinators in Mayo Year 2. And my belief is Wolf told him no one decent would take a coordinator job for a dead man walking coach. And Kraft pulled the plug. I think if there was a confidence that Mayo could have brought in seasoned veteran coordinators, he'd have gotten a second year with the Krafts approving the coordinator choices.
Processes matter because it isn't just about finding the right people, it's also about a whole bunch of other processes. The Patriots aren't a mess because BB was suddenly a different person, it's because all of the internal processes broke down. They stopped bringing in outside ideas and fresh people, they stopped evolving their scouting, they bought into the idea that there was a mythical Patriots Way.
But also they lost almost all the really good talent they had. Listen, I get that good processes often result in good results. But I think we are also way overestimating how much Robert and Jonathan personally need to know new ideas and new ways of doing things. For instance, I’ve been advocating that they bring in a Howie Roseman president of football operations type. In truth, there are only so many of those kinds of guys out there. But if they did? I would hope that Robert and Jonathan would be trusting him to be bringing in the people with new ideas and philosophies, not doing it themselves.
if the Krafts think Vrabel might be the guy to do that from a coaching perspective—hiring innovative coordinators, bringing along a smart personnel guy above him—I think that’s fine. I’m just not convinced that the only path to modernizing this franchise is ownership agonizing over 13 different coaches.
I mean... they lost the talent and didn't replace it because..... they didn't follow good internal processes. So now they are going to hire a guy (even if qualified) without following good processes, and HOPE that he creates new internal processes? That is always going to be a problem with having a bad process. How do they know he can do that, and how do they know how those processes (if he even suggested any) are better than the ones other people might put in place, without finding out what they are.
Bad process over time leads to bad results, because you make less and less informed decisions.
Edit- I'd also say, results declined in part as well because the Patriots were very insular and backward looking, the rest of the league caught up to the advantages BB found 15-20 years ago, then they surpassed them, and Patriots kept looking back at the glory years and saying "We just need those guys to do those things"... time moves in 1 direction. Vrabel is a good coach, maybe they'll overcome it, but it sure seems like a lot of this is Kraft once again looking back at the "glory days" instead of figuring out what's next..
I don't think that's what those advocating for a legit process are advocating.
If Leftwich and Hamilton were legit candidates, there names could be expected to appear on the interview lists of the other teams without coaches. They aren't as of yet.
https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-coaching-requests-hires-full-list-of-teams-and-names-being-pursued-173222847.html
They were clearly brought in to technically satisfy the Rooney Rule, because they could be interviewed in person before Vrabel hit town.
Now, maybe Vrabel doesn't take the job, or it's not offered. What then? Are the Patriots going to Zoom interview Johnson, and wait until after Detroit's season ends ... without interviewing anyone else in the meantime?
Again, Vrabel might be the best candidate and they'll get it right. But there are times when perception and reality are the same.
Local butcher Bucciariellis occasionally makes cheesesteak sausage…it worked.
So I’ll put forth a rose-colored glasses optimistic take on this “process”:
Bedard et al started reporting about how the Pats were “calling around” mid-season, ostensibly to see what they could do to better support Maye. That morphed into also calling around to see how to better support Mayo. I am hoping that in the course of these calls that Jonathan, Eliot, and whoever else was involved started to get a better sense of what the Pats had/didn’t have in terms of infrastructure. So, to address one of Breer’s and talk radio’s big beefs, they got some decent intel about how some other teams are run before the coaching search even started.
They got some additional insight from Brady’s post-Pats QB coach, as well as some insight from Andrew Luck’s old OC from college and the pros.
Now they bring in Vrabel, who comes with his Texans and Titans experience, as well as a lot of insight from an analytics-heavy organization in Cleveland.
Assuming they want to hire him, they say, “Mike, we’ve found out a lot of shit this year about how messed up we are, and we’ve gotten some interesting perspectives on how to support Maye. Given your prior HC and coaching experience, as well as some of the things you learned from Cleveland, how do you propose we set things up in New England? Who to add in the front office? How do you want it to work? Who do we get to coach on offense to maximize Maye”
This isn’t out of the realm of possibility… is it?
He already has 5 interviews scheduled for this weekend. Given he declined it, I don't think he's real interested in coming here anyways but his time is limited before they begin prep for next week.
As Reiss pointed out, "In Boston" likely means they did the interview at RKK's house in Chestnut Hill.
The media is playing games.
"This is a sham like last time!"
"Well, this time they have 2 of the top candidates interviewing and requested the 3rd. They're actually conducting interviews. It's not the same at all."
"So they're bringing in guys because people think they're good candidates? How about digging a bit deeper with some lesser known guys?"
"Well, they had guys like Pep Hamilton and Leftwich too."
"Those were shams!"
"So the Patriots should ignore the NFL rule?"
This isn't some accounting firm bringing in 10 new grads for interviews and no one knows anyone. I would wager most professional sports teams and major college all teams have a top target or two. These candidates are all public figures.
Meh, they didn't add Glenn until AFTER Breer's comments (and he declined)... they didn't run this like a real NFL search, and it's fine for people like Breer to criticize it.
Edit- I get it, people really want to be positive about the team after a really rough couple of years, but even if you like Vrabel as your number 1 guy, it is fine to recognize that the Patriots are not running a full search, which is very unusual in the NFL, and that there are benefits to good process, and as such people who cover the team and the league SHOULD call them out for it.
I don't think it simply comes down to one player either, but AJ Brown had 1456 yards for Philly in his first season which is more than Tennessee's Top-3 receivers in 2022 (the immortal triumvirate of Woods, Okonkwo, and Burks) had combined. It was a colossal, franchise shifting blunder.
Anyway a person likes to cut up the blame pie is up to them, but I'd put whatever motivational magic is at 0% of that pie.
Anyway a person likes to cut up the blame pie is up to them, but I'd put whatever motivational magic is at 0% of that pie.
Yup. I have been a supporter and set aside much cynicism for the Krafts, and let’s not forget they likely pull a rabbit out of a hat and end up with a strong candidate here.
That said, the Aaron Glenn interview request only after the shambolic interview accusations? Its kind of ick, makes you look weak and reactionary, and further emphasizes that those first interviews really were a sham.
Agree with @DJnVa that there’s a certain breathy ’what about the children!’ nature to Breers coverage though.
Agree with all of this.
IMO, in the end, it’s not a HUGE deal. I’d prefer a more extensive search but they’ve secured interviews with the consensus top 2 candidates of this cycle. It’s perfectly reasonable to be locked in on those two.
I agree with the last part. I think offensive coordinator issues will be a major concern with Vrabel both to start and year to year.
I do think one thing on the "Motivational" stuff that doesn't get enough worry is.... Vrabel has never really been in a rebuild. I think he's a good enough coach that he can handle it, but total rebuilds are very different from coming into pretty good teams with vets in place and sometimes the "culture setting" just doesn't work without those vets and without wins.
Either way, I expect that they announce him tonight, so we'll see how it goes.
This doesn't make sense at all. Them being public figures doesn't mean their coaching philosophies and problem solving approaches are public knowledge. Jayson Tatum is a public figure but his public persona is as PR as possible - by design, because people are allowed and want to do that - and the Patriots had a long term HC that was famously short and dissembling in front of the media. It behooves coaches to hide what they do and their tendencies and how they approach the game because opponents can and will exploit those things for advantages. And the NFL is supposed to prevent tampering - so clearly we know the Patriots haven't had any chance to talk to any of these candidates to get their true thoughts on things.
I'm not arguing that interviews are the end-all and be-all, but it just strikes me as so absurd that you'd be hiring a guy to think for your team and speak to your team without inquiring as to how he thinks or speaking to him.
Yeah, also... they are public figures because they are really good at football coaching... would you not want to know what they thought about your football team and players? I mean, how much would a team pay to have BB come in and tell them what he thought the best way to maximize their players on defense was? Or for Andy Reid to come in and tell them how he'd move their offense forward. HC interviews aren't just about finding the best guy to be your coach, it's also about getting basically free high level consulting that you can't buy, and free outlines of various plans.
I think there are far more people who want to be negative about the team and the Krafts because of how the last few years have been.
My overall perspective is that I’m not losing my mind about the direction of the team. I’m just not. They are 12 months out from moving on from the greatest coach in history and I never expected that to be some smooth process.
Obviously this season was very bad and kind of doomed from the start. But I don’t think being a little sentimental about what Bill had built or trying to see what in Year 1 AB (After Bill) was worth carrying over from his system was horribly misguided or indicative of rot. In some ways it’s sensible and natural. And we should probably be encouraged that they didn’t double down on the Mayo promise and spend 2-3 years doing the McDaniels/Patricia thing the Raiders and Lions did.
As for their performance this year, they got the QB right and that was by far the most important thing. Now they are hoping to find a coach and are interviewing the best two available. Do I really need to be angry? Things could be better obviously but they could also be a LOT worse.
How can anyone possibly make that determination? They are interviewing a guy widely believed to be the hottest commodity, and a guy that has ties to the organization and fans love, but I don't think we can state they are the best available and neither can the Patriots without running a full search.
Listen, Ken Wisenhunt is clearly the best contender, why would a team interview some young DC from Minnesota?
They have to be the two best candidates because they're the only two serious candidates they're interviewing ... duh
So how does this play out from here?
They interviewed Vrabel yesterday. Ben Johnson is on the docket virtually today. Aaron Glenn turned them down. They interviewed Leftwich and Hamilton on Tuesday, but they appear to be longshot candidates.
Let's say Johnson knocks it out of the park and they decide they to continue the process with him. If I'm understanding the rules correctly they can't bring Johnson in-person until the Lions are knocked out of the playoffs or, I think, if the Lions make the Super Bowl he could come in during the bye week prior to SB week. Either way, that's a fairly long time and a lot of the openings are going to be taken. I understand the position is attractive but would Vrabel hang around for up to a month in limbo and run the risk that other vacancies fill before Kraft makes a decision on him vs. Johnson?
I guess if Minny/Tampa lose this week they can ask for permission to talk to Coen/Flores? But then I think you kind of run the risk they turn you down much like Aaron Glenn did.
They interviewed Vrabel yesterday. Ben Johnson is on the docket virtually today. Aaron Glenn turned them down. They interviewed Leftwich and Hamilton on Tuesday, but they appear to be longshot candidates.
Let's say Johnson knocks it out of the park and they decide they to continue the process with him. If I'm understanding the rules correctly they can't bring Johnson in-person until the Lions are knocked out of the playoffs or, I think, if the Lions make the Super Bowl he could come in during the bye week prior to SB week. Either way, that's a fairly long time and a lot of the openings are going to be taken. I understand the position is attractive but would Vrabel hang around for up to a month in limbo and run the risk that other vacancies fill before Kraft makes a decision on him vs. Johnson?
I guess if Minny/Tampa lose this week they can ask for permission to talk to Coen/Flores? But then I think you kind of run the risk they turn you down much like Aaron Glenn did.
Can't they hire based on the virtual interview? I get it's fun to take the measure of a man and see how he stares into the distance, but they don't really have to do that; they have the means to reference check this to death and probably ask Johnson to submit whatever materials are relevant.
Nope. They lose Vrabel if they wait that long to decide. And likely lose Johnson as well. A decision is going to be made after the Johnson interview in all likelihood. And I'm pretty sure it will be Vrabel.
Pretty much. There's also the chance that, in the meantime, Vrabel continues his interview tour and gets snapped up by the Raiders or Jets or someone else.
That's why the short candidate list leads many to believe that this isn't an extended search. Unless Johnson blows them away, it's Vrabel. Probably announced Saturday morning, before the games start, or Monday morning, as to not interrupt the Sunday schedule.
Pretty much what @Cellar-Door said
Not if the Lions win. If the Lions advance to the NFCCG, they cannot interview him until the following week.
I have no idea of the process and how these interviews go but I'd think if you were hiring a position as important as an NFL head coach, you'd want to bring the serious candidates into your building. The candidate would also probably want to visit and check out the facilities, surrounding area where he'd be moving his family and all that. "You'll love the Red Wing diner, Ben!"
Agreed. They appear to have tunnel vision on one guy. But, we have all been wrong before making assumptions about what they are thinking.
If it is leaked that they hired Vrabel later this afternoon or sometime tomorrow, we'll have our answer.
Right. "We already told Vrabel he has the job, but we're open if you've got some photos of him or something....".
Sure, we have to be somewhat careful not to take these reports as wholly indicative of their internal process, but at the end of the day they're (seriously) interviewing two candidates, so it is what it is.
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