Rebuilding a football team is hard, not sure why everyone seems to expect it to be complete by now and I would say this team is equal to the Jets, they both are very flawed and meh.
The Game Goat Thread: Wk. 7 vs Chicago
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I was always mystified by the "well we got Trent Brown back so left tackle is set" crowd.
Trent Brown weighs almost 400 pounds and is going on 30 years old. Players like that do not get faster as they age. They get slower. A 25 year old Brown with Super Bowl aspirations in 2018 is much different than a 30 year old lumbering behemoth trying to keep hungry 20-somthing edge pass rushers who can run a 4.5 40 off your quarterback.
Edit: he's 29. But still.
Trent Brown weighs almost 400 pounds and is going on 30 years old. Players like that do not get faster as they age. They get slower. A 25 year old Brown with Super Bowl aspirations in 2018 is much different than a 30 year old lumbering behemoth trying to keep hungry 20-somthing edge pass rushers who can run a 4.5 40 off your quarterback.
Edit: he's 29. But still.
Belichick absolutely fucked the dog with his decisions at QB and Jakobi Meyers comments after the game only serve to further highlight that.
Who the fuck cares which QB was given first team reps? The defense just got fucking rolled by the worst QB in the league and a pathetic offense. Prime Tom Brady probably loses this game.
I will buy one excuse for Zappe - between the 44 other players that got snaps and the 137 coaches on the sideline, he had tons of competition for worst performing player/coach.
Man. Can you take it down just a notch?
Also, Fields is most certainly not the worst QB in the league.
Sorry for the hyperbole. The point stands. Yes, the quarterbacking for the NE Patriots last night was not good, and maybe Zappe plays better if he got first team reps. But, the Bears offense has stunk this year and Fields has not been good, and they went up and down the field like they were playing a high school team, which is the main reason why the Pats lost.
Wondering if we're seeing red flags is hardly the hot take you're depicting it as here. Might be a little reactionary to last night but we did just watch one of the poorer coaching performances of Bill's tenure, with Jakobi Meyers of all people coming out and saying he felt Mac was done dirty.
They're bottom of the league in turnovers and heavily penalized. It's not crazy to be concerned about the locker room and buy in.
After sleeping on it, I’m still coming back to Brown and Bailey. Brown completely sabotaged the offense getting going. By his third penalty (I think the trip) you could see Belichick using some not nice words about him into the headset.
I don’t know what the hell happened to Jake, but there’s gotta be an injury there they can use to put him on IR. He almost tripped over his feet on the first punt and his others looked like post cervical fusion Manning duck throws. Bears had awesome field position all night.
And third down defense. The running numbers look bad, but even with the injuries, they played Montgomery and Herbert first and second down. They got torched on the Fields runs and bootleg passes on third down. And the Pettis run. Those skew the numbers as to what their problem was.
In fairness to Belichick, he probably didn't expect Mac to come in and look like a deer in the headlights. Mac pissing down his own leg had nothing to do (to my eye) with being rushed back, his ankle looked fine. In fact, it might even be true that he could have started last week, but they gave him one more game to really make sure the ankle was ready. Mac looked like he didn't belong on the field - hard to blame BB for noticing that and yanking him.
I'm one who thought Mac's leash should be short coming back, but that was ridiculous. Mac has looked like a deer in the headlights for a good portion of every game he's played this season, either Bill plugs him back in as starter knowing that could come to pass, or he goes with Zappe.
Looked to me like Belichick wanted to go with Zappe and was just willing to take any excuse Mac gave him to make the switch, which leads me to wonder why not just prepare Zappe as the starter during the week and play him in the first place. This is the kind of QB management that would make us laugh at other HCs.
I'm hard pressed to think of a worse coached game in the BB era. Yes, the players got outplayed pretty much everywhere by players worse than them, but it you have more talented guys and they get rolled across the board, that's on the coaches.
What the hell was the offensive game plan for Mac? Why the hell are you sending 75 men after the QB?
Grrr....
What the hell was the offensive game plan for Mac? Why the hell are you sending 75 men after the QB?
Grrr....
Isn’t part of the atrocious defense in second half on the offense too though? Part of the “complimentary football” bill always talks about is offense putting a drive together to help the defense. Coming out in 3rd pats defense gives up a long drive…but hold for a fg. 3 and out for pats offense. Same thing happens on next possessions for both teams. Then pats give up the td.
I’m not trying to make any claims D looked good at all, just that offense (and st for that matter) pretty continually put them in shitty situations.
I wasn’t going to bother responding to his lazy, drive by snark, but yes, you’ve summarized what I was concerned about perfectly. Thanks.
Most things have been mentioned but the run defense stuck out for me. BB has typically done a good job containing mobile QBs and it wasn't there last night, Fields just got free time after time when the secondary was doing its job. The front 7 was a worry before the season and it's a worry again.
The D was just as bad in the first half when they were fresh. It was a shitburger all around.
Two issues I saw - they repeatedly lost contain on outside runs by either Fields or RBs on tosses, so the Bears could basically pick up big chunks by going outside, and the NE receivers failed to consistently separate. OL was bad as well, but they were giving up chunk plays on the ground and there just was not much open aside from checkdowns and the two big plays.
I disagree only in that I think they were worse in the second half, part of which I chalk up to terrible offense. If the first half was a shitburger…second half was a le royale shitburger. With cheese.
That botched hand-off to Jakobi Meyers isn't getting enough hate. That was the single biggest play in the game. CHI had just scored a TD to go up 3 with 2min to go. After a 12yd pass to get the ball out to the NE 40 with 1:40 to play they inexplicably call a hand-off to their slowest WR. This wasn't a jet sweep, there was no mis-direction. It was a literal handoff with Rham blocking out front. When you are in a 2min drill on your side of the 50 why would you ever call this play. It wasn't even a option pass or anything. That play needs to be scrapped, burnt and buried. NE had a decent chance of at least tying the game on that drive, up until that point they hadn't slowed down the Zappe offense. Instead the turnover leads to FG and the lead is quickly extended to 9 on another FG coming out of the half. Once CHI was up two scores mid-way through the 3rd the game completely changed and it was all down hill from there.
I could see maybe handing off to Meyers as part of a double reverse giving a former college QB the chance to throw but why would you ever just hand off to Meyers at any point during a game, never mind during a 2min drill when your offense has been moving up and down the field to that point on the two previous drives.
I could see maybe handing off to Meyers as part of a double reverse giving a former college QB the chance to throw but why would you ever just hand off to Meyers at any point during a game, never mind during a 2min drill when your offense has been moving up and down the field to that point on the two previous drives.
I'm not mad, I'm disappointed. They had real momentum heading into this game and would have been 4-3 with a win with 3 games against the Jets/Colts coming up. And...they just came out completely flat. I think BB handled the QB situation very poorly and should have let Zappe get the reps and start. Mac looked awful, like Hoyer level bad. I have real concerns about his future here. Zappe brought them back but then fell back to Earth. But hard to really blame him coming off the bench without many reps in practice.
The rest of the team was equally putrid, or worse. Jake Bailey deserves to be cut. Just continues to murder this teams' field position every damn game. The defense put forth one of the most gutless performances we'll see in a long time. This was the Chicago Bears, not the Buffalo Bills. And the defense had zero answers all game long, which set the tone and put further pressure on the QBs.
This was a Thursday night on the road effort...except they were at home with a full week of practice + 1 day. I'll be rooting for a win against the Jets because the season can be salvaged by winning the next 3. Lose to the Jets and I'll be switching to hoping they lose every game for the draft capital. There just isn't enough talent on this team and this year may need to be a painful reset with the hope that a QB finally emerges and you add a top 10 pick + some FA signings to get back to a competitive level.
The rest of the team was equally putrid, or worse. Jake Bailey deserves to be cut. Just continues to murder this teams' field position every damn game. The defense put forth one of the most gutless performances we'll see in a long time. This was the Chicago Bears, not the Buffalo Bills. And the defense had zero answers all game long, which set the tone and put further pressure on the QBs.
This was a Thursday night on the road effort...except they were at home with a full week of practice + 1 day. I'll be rooting for a win against the Jets because the season can be salvaged by winning the next 3. Lose to the Jets and I'll be switching to hoping they lose every game for the draft capital. There just isn't enough talent on this team and this year may need to be a painful reset with the hope that a QB finally emerges and you add a top 10 pick + some FA signings to get back to a competitive level.
You can only say that when you have a good team coming off a bad game. We don’t have that. We have a mediocre at best team coming off an embarrassing ass kicking and they don’t know who the starting QB is and don’t have faith in the decision making by the coaching staff.
The Jets game could be an epic asskicking given the way each team is playing, andI shudder to think about the ramifications.
Sure thing.
I'm as In Bill We Trust as anyone, but he's not totally immune to this sort of thing. We only really have one good example with the '09 team, but if it can happen 2 years after an undefeated season it can happen anytime. I still have plenty of faith in the coaching staff and think most of the talk has been overblown, but it's just realistic to accept things could go a little sideways with the whole Mac situation and McDaniels leaving to be replaced by Patricia/Judge, and in general the coaching drain over the years. That stuff does matter, it's probably easier to maintain buy in from players when you have guys like Dante and Ivan Fears standing behind you lockstep.
I'll give the Bears coaching staff some credit. They took advantage of their mini bye and had their team ready to play.
Goat for just about everyone on the Patriots sideline with an extra shutout to Brown.
As for Bailey, I keep waiting for him to turn it around but might be time to bring a couple punters in for workouts.
Aikman did say that Belichick told him Zappe would also play so not sure what the plan was. Whether the plan truly was to play both or if he knew there was a good possibility of Zappe relieving Mac and wanting to put it out there. Of course Belichick also maintained at halftime that both QBs would play in the second half.
I still think it is Mac's job to lose.
Goat for just about everyone on the Patriots sideline with an extra shutout to Brown.
As for Bailey, I keep waiting for him to turn it around but might be time to bring a couple punters in for workouts.
Yes, this is life in the NFL for most of the league. Look great one week and poor the following. Only certainty is fans will overreact to the latest performance. Last week posters were calling the Pats D elite after a couple very good performances. Today posters are calling for the D coordinator to be fired.
Agreed the ankle did not appear to be an issue. More the processing and reading the D. Pretty good chance, that happens whether Mac came back this week, next week or a few weeks from now.
Aikman did say that Belichick told him Zappe would also play so not sure what the plan was. Whether the plan truly was to play both or if he knew there was a good possibility of Zappe relieving Mac and wanting to put it out there. Of course Belichick also maintained at halftime that both QBs would play in the second half.
I still think it is Mac's job to lose.
It will never stop being funny when someone turns "screwed the pooch" into "fucked the dog" in a post.
Fields is pretty close to the worst starter. Mariota and Dalton are both worse statistically, and Matty Ice would be worse but he's donezo after getting hurt this week. The rest below him are backups thrust into starter roles. Mac would perhaps be deemed worse, but he's not played enough to compare. Even with last night's above average performance, Fields looks pretty awful throwing the ball. However, the Pats' entire D got absolutely mauled in the run game. A particular early lowlight was the QB rush where Bryant had Fields dead to rights, and then took the worst angle possible and allowed Fields to blow right by him into the end zone. I harp on Bryant a lot in these followups, but he's exceptionally bad at his key role, and since he vampired a pick last night, his stats actually looked better than usual. Ugh.
Other goats:
- Special teams. Awful on punts and kickoff returns. Bailey is either hurt or deeply in his head on where to place punts, because he's missing badly. On kick returns, Marcus Jones's nickname should be Swipe Right, because he'll take anything out.
- The offensive line. With the committee back at full strength, they committed a ton of penalties (several offset), and the backs could do nothing. Rham stood out in the passing game at least, the lone bright spot.
- Offense coaching. Zero urgency through the 3rd and 4th, with constant huddling while down a bunch. It made no difference in the play either.
Exactly. I didn’t mean to suggest in my OP that any of this is permanent, or final, or reason to jettison him. Just that the farther he gets way from his last championship, and the fewer players that are left from it, the more possible it is that his mystique, credibility, whatever you want to call it, with his current players diminishes a bit. Particularly if they continue to struggle, and until/if they return to true contender status. But he’s absolutely still the one guy I’d bet on to be able to do that.
We are just now experiencing what basically every other Fanbase has experienced for the last 20+ years. The golden era of patriots football is over. We are no longer the kind of team that you can just pencil in for 12 wins and a trip to the AFC championship game. We are in the middle of the pack like the vast majority of other teams. Capable of beating some good teams and also capable of losing to some dreadful ones. We will see signs of brilliance and then signs of complete ineptitude. This is the roller coaster that most fan bases experience on a regular basis.
Yes we are so frustrated with our teams performance, just stepped into the shoes of almost every other fan base and see how fun it is. Except for a couple of teams, it won’t be much more fun than this. Certainly in any given year there are teams that will be good, but generally it’s not long before they fall back to mediocrity or worse. I imagine with Mahomes and Allen, the Chiefs and Bills should be winning franchises for quite a while, but they too are one major injury away from sucking again.
Yes we are so frustrated with our teams performance, just stepped into the shoes of almost every other fan base and see how fun it is. Except for a couple of teams, it won’t be much more fun than this. Certainly in any given year there are teams that will be good, but generally it’s not long before they fall back to mediocrity or worse. I imagine with Mahomes and Allen, the Chiefs and Bills should be winning franchises for quite a while, but they too are one major injury away from sucking again.
And as much as no one wants to admit it, their QB has a much higher ceiling than either guy here
So does Daniel Jones. Make all the jokes you want, but with proper coaching that guy has played like Josh Allen-lite. And that is miles better than either Mac or Zappe.
I wonder if the "brain drain" in the pats coaching ranks have left them with BB and a mediocre staff. Mediocre talent and mediocre coaching can be a deadly combination.
Thanks, missed that.
My response doesn’t change, though. Wilson’s arm and athletic traits are well above Max or Zappe’s.
That we all may have to face the reality that we're not in the "Green Bay in 2008" phase of the franchise but the "Green Bay in 1968" phase.
Having the season be effectively over by November 1. And the long-term future of either QB being cast into serious doubt. (Mac is 2-7 over his last 9 starts). And the immediate future of the coaching staff.
Next week could be a bloodbath. The team just pressed reset after the 2019 season, and so far the rebuild hasn't worked. They might have to blow it all up again, only this time BB will be even older and the players even further removed from the days of on-field success.
The GOAT is of course BB...horrible decision to start Mac, putting both Mac and Zappe in a horrible position. Bedard thinks its Judge and Patricia simply undermining Mac, which could be true, but ultimately this falls on BB. All of the momentum was with Zappe, but Mac supposedly gets all of the reps in practice and starts, and of course is rusty. The crowd is beyond restless, Mac can't handle ANY pressure, BB has no patience for turnovers, and Zappe is put in early without the benefit of practice reps (we saw how this went in the GB game). Given everything the obvious play here was for Zappe to start, get the reps in practice, and have Mac as the emergency backup (with the aim to start in NY, unless Zappe lights it up against the Bears). BB wanted it both ways and it predictably ends in disaster.
The primarily man defense simply fails against the running quarterbacks, and how a mastermind like BB continually fails in such situations is mind boggling.
The primarily man defense simply fails against the running quarterbacks, and how a mastermind like BB continually fails in such situations is mind boggling.
The bolded makes zero sense. But it's Bedard so I'm hardly surprised.
I agree with you that Zappe should have started to give Mac one more week. I don't understand the thinking process there. That being said, Mac's idiotic decision to just huck it up resulted in an easy turnover and he's been doing that all season so I'm hardly surprised that earned him a benching. That was stupid of him.
The failure against running QBs has been a very long-time issue here and I don't know how they fix it. Running a heavy LB scheme simply fails against a QB who can take off.
Zappe should of started last night, Mac doesnt have it right now, 0 confidence in his own play and it clearly shows. That int from him was clearly a chuck it and #@#@ it pass from him, something he seems to be doing a good bit of this season.
If they go back to Mac i fully expect him to suck no matter who the team is we are playing, he just is not that good imo, maybe it is temporary but as of right now, Mac doesn't deserve to be a starter!
If they go back to Mac i fully expect him to suck no matter who the team is we are playing, he just is not that good imo, maybe it is temporary but as of right now, Mac doesn't deserve to be a starter!
A Breece Hall-less NYJ offense is worse than the CHI offense so I don't see a bloodbath coming next week. Zach Wilson makes Sam Darnold look like a good QB, he is completing passes at a Tebowesque level. The NYJ have a much improved defense but their offense was Breece Hall. Will be interesting to see how the offense looks if Wilson has to actually throw for over 200yds.
I meant is this is their run defense, the Jets likely won't need to throw the ball at all.
Incredible how thin the D is when a couple of the above average guys can’t play or get knocked out. And the LB group is just putrid.
If there is any tiny silver lining, another strong Zappe game in a loss might have muddied the waters even more. All the batted balls and turnovers, while maybe also small sample size and not fair to Zappe, do highlight some issues with him.
Combined with the player locker room comments after the game, I expect Mac to get the call against the Jets and still think he’s the more likely long term solution of the 2.
Hopefully he’s healthier and has a longer leash this time.
If there is any tiny silver lining, another strong Zappe game in a loss might have muddied the waters even more. All the batted balls and turnovers, while maybe also small sample size and not fair to Zappe, do highlight some issues with him.
Combined with the player locker room comments after the game, I expect Mac to get the call against the Jets and still think he’s the more likely long term solution of the 2.
Hopefully he’s healthier and has a longer leash this time.
The Pats just turned Justin Fields into John Elway. The Bears should have been an easy win and yet the Pats got their asses stomped. At home. They couldn't even effectively punt the fucking ball.
We are far beyond the point where we can assume this team can win any particular game. The Jets have a very good likelihood of blowing the Pats out.
Well Zach Wilson isn't running around like a scared little child and chucking it up into triple coverage, Mac is though! The Jets also managed to pick up Robinson from the Jags who has shown abilities of being a bell cow back, i don't think they dropped off much at all with their running game after acquiring him. I fully expect the patriots to get soundly beaten by the Jets who are simply the better team right now next week.