It’s not happening this season. The talent just doesn’t exist on this roster. The team also made an active choice (Kraft, Wolf, and Mayo) for the longer term path when they drafted a development player as QB.
The Game Goat Thread: Wk 3 @ NYJ
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
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Of course. I understand their choices. I am merely saying I am worried that losing for several years before they think they'll get better won't actually work, because players lose the ability to figure out how to win if they don't experience it for a long period of time.
The Pats were exactly .500 in the first three years after Brady, they've had exactly one awful year and have had exactly one draft pick higher than 15. It's absolutely no fun, but typically rebuilds will take more than one really bad year. Sometimes it becomes a habit and you are the Browns or Jets and sometimes not, but either way that habit isn't established or identifiable 1+ years into it. For sure all of the dynasty equity and experience is gone, but that was going to happen anyway.
They really weren’t that bad during the Stafford years, they just couldn’t get past the wild card round. Then they bottomed out in 2019 and 2020 with 3 and 5 wins. They won 3 Campbell’s first year and then 9 and 12.
To me, the Pats are actually in a second rebuild. The first started the day Brady left. They botched that one investing in mediocre receivers and tight ends rather than Thuney and OL. So if the second rebuild started with the third pick and drafting Maye, they should be able to rebuild quickly as other teams have demonstrated. If it’s another 3-4 years of losing records and bottom of the league offense, fans will be bored, the Krafts will feel it in their wallet, and Wolf won’t be here long.
Yeah, Game Goat to Maye for that asinine comment. Waiting around to kiss Rodgers' ass after a loss against the Jets is bad enough, to refer to him on those terms is just ugh...
I think in any rebuild you want to find some positive signed or things to build on. It's early this year but I think you can look at the limited turnovers and penalties (although that's going in the wrong direction) and see a team that plays with discipline and accountability. That's a decent sign for the coaching staff. A downside is the lack of playmaking and bad situational football, which was particularly evident last night but also popped up in the Seattle game. They are also getting beat on the line of scrimmage. Recent positive rebuilds like Detroit and Houston have shown that's a key.
As for their record, I think the defense will show up against lesser QBs and give them a better chance. Offense will be better against weaker Dlines. But up against any elite talent, they are going to fall apart. Five wins is still a likely outcome.
As for their record, I think the defense will show up against lesser QBs and give them a better chance. Offense will be better against weaker Dlines. But up against any elite talent, they are going to fall apart. Five wins is still a likely outcome.
Agree with all this. Also wanted to tack on that fans are already bored, and they've been that way for some time. Exciting doesn't necessarily have to mean winning, but there has been nothing exciting about the product they have put on the field for 5 straight seasons now. I suppose there was some excitement in 2021 due to having a rookie QB play decently, but they still weren't an exciting team to watch, at least on offense. They play boring football and whether they win 4 games this year or 7 games this year, it will still be boring, unless/until Maye takes the reigns, they can keep him upright, and their receivers show some explosion.
They don’t really have a choice. There is literally nothing they can do to get talent in here other suck for a few years and draft it.
At the end of the day, it’ll all come down to if Wolf can pick players in the draft, and if Mayo and his staff can coach them. And we’re not going to know that until 2026.
If they wait until 2026 to be good, they're going to be shocked at the lack of fans and interest in the team. The landscape has changed, they're the worst professional team in town right now and people are going to stop following if they suck for years. I don't think Bob Kraft understands that.
The bitter irony is that Bob and Jonathan Kraft were thrilled to dump BB to "get our team back" and they're going to find out that no one cares about the team if they don't win.
The only play I noticed bad from Gonzalez was the throw in the 1st half where Wilson burned him deep but Wilson fell or it would have been a touchdown. Would have been called back for Wilson's illegal motion.
I had a long post on the main board earlier this season after attending a game on a beautiful Saturday in June where there were about 25,000 in the stands.
The Red Sox aren't immune to it. And the Pats won't be either. Woe to the Krafts if they think differently.
The OL sucked last year. The offense sucked last year. The issue is deficient talent not a deficient rolodex.
The team has had a shortage of talent in many spots for a few years. Thinking this would be fixed in one year isn't realistic. We all expected to be kinda shitty this year, especially the OL. This isn't baseball where no matter what you need, you can probably find it in FA or a trade.
Two entirely rational takes here.
At best, it's really a two draft, two offseason rebuild. That's if there are no catastrophic setbacks. And while nobody enjoys losing, and bad culture can be contagious and fester, one cannot judge progress in three games.
I’m probably not getting my point across well enough.
I believe that everyone from ownership to the guys selling beer at the stadium want to win as soon as possible.
I believe that the Krafts think that they hired the right coach in Mayo, and that Eliot Wolf is going to be a great GM.
But the top free agent players and top available assistant coaches in the league had no reason to believe that working with this coach and GM would be the best thing for their careers. They reportedly took less money to go elsewhere. I believe that surprised the Krafts a little bit.
So now that leaves one area of improvement, and that’s through the draft. And it’s going to take at least through the end of 2025 to see if any of the guys they drafted in 2024 or 2025 can play.
So yes, fan interest is going to be down and the stadium will be half empty. The Krafts made that decision that it will be a long, slow rebuild when they brought in a rookie coach and GM.
I think their hold on the regions fans may soften a little bit, but the NFL in general is such a marauding beast now, I think they will avoid any return to late 80's/early 90's level of disinterest and empty seats. I mean, maybe a decade of sucking would produce that. But I would hope the organization is in a place where that won't happen.
Why would we think they do? We’ve all had a front row seat to Bob and Jonathan for years and years, I just don’t see that being in their DNA.
If the Krafts think this is a single season rebuild, then they're delusional.
We ended up here because the Pats drafted Mac, which ended up being a waste of a mid-first. Then the associated personnel decisions were all based around Mac looking "promising" his rookie year. Bill unfortunately had some terrible free agent signings (Jonnu Smith, Algholor, JuJu) and some bad drafts and as a result the roster is now mostly bereft of talent on the offensive side of the ball.
This team has a likely ceiling of 3-4 wins, and such teams experience a handful of blowout losses such as this one over the course of a season. Obviously, if the Pats look like they did for the next 14 games, then the coaching staff will be given the heave-ho as well, but teams always look worse than they truly are during a bad loss. I don't think anyone's plan was to go 1-16 for the next 3 years. But expectations should be 3-4 wins this season, and probably hanging around 0.500 next season. After last night, the real concern is not the former, but whether the latter is even realistic, but we really won't know for a while.
We don't have any outstanding typical horrible NFL scandals, so that's something. And Maye has yet to play. I'm trying here.
This used to be a complete loser organization and turned into a blue blood, so I'm going to give things a bit more time now. Kraft won't accept an extended Bengals or Browns type franchise. I know it goes against my undertitle, but I'm going to wait until I see the kid actually play. If he looks awful then it's time to worry because we'll need to reset the clock all over again.
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They really didn't start a true rebuild until this past offseason. Bill went nuts in free agency after 2020 and tried to plug holes that were created by horrible drafting and predictably it got them no closer to contender status. So they delayed what they should have done after 2019 until this year. The entire OL has to be rebuilt and hopefully that starts with a really high pick in R1 this year. But Andrews could retire as well so in theory they will need to address possibly both tackle spots if they are wrong on Wallace, center, and at least one guard spot. WR1 has to be addressed as well as the IDL, LB, and corner positions. It's going to be a multi-year rebuild that is going to be painful at times.
The thing about 2020 was it was a splurge to help a rookie QB.... and it did. The problem was you do that on the assumption that while the rest of the team will decline each year as you age or price guys out, the QB will get better and be able to elevate what is left. They were wrong on Mac more than anything, and he completely crumbled the moment the line went from very good to above average... that made a lot of guys worse, then they missed the next year on some swings, draft pick gets hurt, etc. etc. and it snowballed. Their good RG had to play RT, their promising LG got hurt again, their good LT didn't want to be here anymore.... etc.
As to right now... I think we can feel pretty good about interior line next year if Onwenu is moving back inside. He's a very good guard. Sow showed promise both last year and in preseason and amongst him, Robinson, Jordan you feel okay. Center is a concern, but.... if Strange is back at some point he'd make sense there (or at guard), he's been an above average NFL player at times despite injuries.
Tackle is the issue. Could Wallace play RT... I think so, he's a raw mess right now, but he shows the skillset to be solid there with time. Left Tackle needs to be a priority in the draft.
Agreed all around. They can’t get tempted into the fool’s gold of a 2021 again. Follow the correct process this time.
I'm not sure I feel good about Layden Robinson or Michael Jordan as long-term solutions. Robinson is among the worst if not the worst pass blocking guard in football currently and Jordan is a fringe roster guy. Sow showed some promise last season so let's see what he has when he comes back. Robinson could certainly develop further, but he has a long ways to go in pass protection. It certainly helps to solidify the tackle spots as it's easier to piece together the interior. Cole Strange: I'm not counting on much from him moving forward as that injury at the end of last season was really bad.
100% agree with this. His stats this year have been better than his coverage. Last night he had some bad reps. My buddy was watching more of the secondary play and he was calling out Gonzo for most of the night.
It’s the O-Line, obviously, but you really shouldn’t lose contain so goddamned often against a 40 year old QB coming off a season-ending leg injury. That was embarrassing.
I'm sure your friend was right but I thought he had a difficult assignment tracking Wilson most of the night and at least made those throws challenging and difficult on Rodgers. He did get roasted when he fell down on the illegal motion play where Wilson was wide open. And he badly missed a tackle in the red area. He at least looks like he can start on a good team though. Not sure we can say that about many other players on the team right now.
He shows flashes of brilliance and I think to some degree he is relying on his ability to close quickly. Corners are often up and down. I like Gonzo quite a bit. He’s going to be a really good player… but he is just a handful of games into his NFL career. I am not worried.
I would not say this is a wrong thing to be concerned about, but the single biggest factor in the team's trajectory over the next few years is how good Drake Maye turns out to be.
I think that if the team had a good established line and was forced to plug Robinson or Jordan in as an injury replacement, neither would look as bad as they do in this current mess. Jordan is a fringe/backup, but I think Robinson has shown some promise in his first 3 games. When he's playing between a bad OT and a center who needs to worry about a fringe LG on the other side plahying next to a bad LT, it is a problem.