I heard that Gonzalez covered Garrett Wilson most of the night. If correct, then the bolded is not correct as Wilson had 5 catches on 9 targets for 33 yards, with the one TD being a 2 yard toss.
The Game Goat Thread: Wk 3 @ NYJ
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Yeah, Gonzo was fine.
The problem with the pass defense was the pass rush. The ends were crashing in to the middle or rushing past Rodgers. He would easily slide to the outside and then we're fucked. The DB's aren't going to hold up downfield and if a linebacker comes out of coverage to run at him, he'll throw to the guy the LB left. If the LB stays in coverage, he runs for 8-10 yards. Rinse, repeat.
The run defense felt the loss of Bentley big time. He would be the guy plugging the holes that Hall and Allen were running through.
The problem with the pass defense was the pass rush. The ends were crashing in to the middle or rushing past Rodgers. He would easily slide to the outside and then we're fucked. The DB's aren't going to hold up downfield and if a linebacker comes out of coverage to run at him, he'll throw to the guy the LB left. If the LB stays in coverage, he runs for 8-10 yards. Rinse, repeat.
The run defense felt the loss of Bentley big time. He would be the guy plugging the holes that Hall and Allen were running through.
YEAH Gonzo played well in coverage, people got hung up on the slip and fall on the dead play. His tackling wasn't great like everyone but his coverage was was good
Would have been better to face the Jets last week. Rodgers is moving so much better already.
This was a bad game but the Jets are a pretty good team. The line just isn't ready but Maye looked ok in the little time he played. The plan is for the future, not this year.
This was a bad game but the Jets are a pretty good team. The line just isn't ready but Maye looked ok in the little time he played. The plan is for the future, not this year.
Is this a certainty? There were questions if he was staying long term or just to get the team through the draft. It appears the thinking was to give him a long leash to lead the rebuild.
If the season goes like the first two games, they win 5-6 games and compete in others, that plan will remain. More of last night, and the Krafts may rethink.
It’s one thing to have a losing season. But they are a very boring team that is not going to generate interest and that is lost dollars. Casual fans aren’t going to watch a team and buy jerseys of a that can’t pass protect and throws for 100 yards every week.
This
Replay this game with the Pats having a functional OLine and I suspect everyone else looks 20-30% better, and the score is very different
Not a bad reference. From watching the TV feed from the couch (and not going through hours all-22 film) I'm not sure how to evaluate our WRs, for example
I think SMU Sox has said that it is very tough to find a starting tackle outside of the top 40 picks. Given that there were 8 taken in the top 29 this year, I would have liked to trade #35 and other stuff to move up and grab one even if you lost some trade value. I wonder if that was possible.
It's obviously early but the mocks so far this year only have 2-4 OT prospects going in the top 30-40 picks. I don't follow prospects closely so maybe they can get one and it will be ok but it feels like a missed opportunity unless Polk is a stud. Hindsight blah blah blah but I'd rather find a real tackle than a WR when you have a future star QB and already have some young pieces at WR. It feels like this year they're not going to learn anything about Maye or any of the WR (in particular Thornton) in game action because there is no time for any routes to develop, and then you kind of have to start from scratch with the whole offense next offseason.
It's obviously early but the mocks so far this year only have 2-4 OT prospects going in the top 30-40 picks. I don't follow prospects closely so maybe they can get one and it will be ok but it feels like a missed opportunity unless Polk is a stud. Hindsight blah blah blah but I'd rather find a real tackle than a WR when you have a future star QB and already have some young pieces at WR. It feels like this year they're not going to learn anything about Maye or any of the WR (in particular Thornton) in game action because there is no time for any routes to develop, and then you kind of have to start from scratch with the whole offense next offseason.
It's not hindsight when at the time everyone knew the line was trash. It was a strategic decision to go WR instead of OL, and since the best way to build a contender beyond QB is from the lines out, it may have been a big mistake.
Blocking
Tackling
Coaching
On the last, I was pretty optimistic after Games 1&2, but last night looked much like the dis-spirited, poorly disciplined team of last year.
Tackling
Coaching
On the last, I was pretty optimistic after Games 1&2, but last night looked much like the dis-spirited, poorly disciplined team of last year.
I want to be optimistic about this team since they are starting so far behind the starting line - new first-time coach, placeholder QB, little to no talent anywhere outside of like, 8 guys. I am doing my best to reserve judgment until the end of the season and if they can put some stuff together, play hard and develop I will consider this a win.
That said... last night's game was a dud on every level and not encouraging. Given that Mayo now has a win, a hard fought loss and a complete dismantling I am still giving him some grace but man, this team is hard to watch.
That said... last night's game was a dud on every level and not encouraging. Given that Mayo now has a win, a hard fought loss and a complete dismantling I am still giving him some grace but man, this team is hard to watch.
The defense played poorly last night - hard to believe they "only" gave up 24 points. The Jets had the ball for 40 minutes and didn't turn it over. How the heck did they only manage 24 points? Kind of crazy.
But the offense - a bad turnover, but just utter ineptitude. Couldn't do anything either running or passing. The D was having enough troubles of its own, but when the offense gives you absolutely no help whatsoever, it's impossible.
The only good thing about last night really was Baringer. His booming punts kept making the Jets go the length of the field, which meant that the D gave up tons of yards and was on the field forever, but could somehow "hold" the Jets to just 24.
After their first drive (because of the kickoff), here's the Jets' starting field position:
NYJ 27
NYJ 9
NYJ 24
NYJ 34
NYJ 12
NEP 37 (after the Rhamondre fumble)
NYJ 9
That's a good job by New England's special teams to keep pushing the Jets deeper into their own territory, but man....the offense didn't help the D at ALL.
But the offense - a bad turnover, but just utter ineptitude. Couldn't do anything either running or passing. The D was having enough troubles of its own, but when the offense gives you absolutely no help whatsoever, it's impossible.
The only good thing about last night really was Baringer. His booming punts kept making the Jets go the length of the field, which meant that the D gave up tons of yards and was on the field forever, but could somehow "hold" the Jets to just 24.
After their first drive (because of the kickoff), here's the Jets' starting field position:
NYJ 27
NYJ 9
NYJ 24
NYJ 34
NYJ 12
NEP 37 (after the Rhamondre fumble)
NYJ 9
That's a good job by New England's special teams to keep pushing the Jets deeper into their own territory, but man....the offense didn't help the D at ALL.
It's clear to me after the first three games that the win against the Bengals can be considered a complete fluke due to turnover luck and Cincy being a notoriously awful team in the early weeks of the season.
They probably could have traded 34, their 4th and a 2025 pick to jump Dallas for someone like Tyler Guyton. Then they could have went WR in round 3.
I'm honestly wondering at this point if they blundered by not taking Alt at 3. I can't see Maye positively developing in any way with this OL. Might have been better to take the generational T and draft a QB next year.
Gonzo was fantastic, he’s already an elite player.
Mayo looks way in over his head. He’s a rookie coach and gets 2 seasons, but right now I don’t have much confidence. If you can’t see risking Maye in that situation is a bad idea, well…that’s bad.
Mayo looks way in over his head. He’s a rookie coach and gets 2 seasons, but right now I don’t have much confidence. If you can’t see risking Maye in that situation is a bad idea, well…that’s bad.
Well Kraft just said the other day that he appointed Mayo as BB's successor 5 years ago, so Mayo is going to be here for a bit if only to make sure Kraft doesn't look bad.
Nah, if Maye is a top 10 QB you always take him and try and figure out the OL down the line. But they are bad enough that they should have a top of the line OL available next season. They should draft 2 more and hunt in free agency as well. Plus they’ll need a Center soon.
I’m not sure Bob Kraft is on Bob Kraft’s 5-year plan…if you know what I mean.
They got an obviously talented QB this past draft. That was mission #1 of the rebuild. Now they need to get an offensive line. Maybe Strange (who is average, but an improvement over what they currently have) comes back next year healthy and good. Maybe Sow gets healthy soon and is solid. I don't know. Onwenu and Andrews have both been disappointing, but both should be better than what they've shown so far. If the two guys you're counting on to be good play poorly, then it's a massive problem for the whole team. So I have to assume they'll be better.
The tackles are a major issue, obviously. We knew that going into the season. That's where they need to spend capital this offseason - trade, free agency, the draft. Any and all of it. They also need a center to replace Andrews. Maybe not for 2025 but also...maybe for 2025. But certainly Andrews doesn't have that much left.
This was the process we all knew was going to happen, and we knew it would be good for the team in the long run (or we hoped, anyway), and we also knew it would be painful to watch as it was happening.
Well, we're in the "as it is happening" portion of the program, and yeah, it's painful to watch.
The tackles are a major issue, obviously. We knew that going into the season. That's where they need to spend capital this offseason - trade, free agency, the draft. Any and all of it. They also need a center to replace Andrews. Maybe not for 2025 but also...maybe for 2025. But certainly Andrews doesn't have that much left.
This was the process we all knew was going to happen, and we knew it would be good for the team in the long run (or we hoped, anyway), and we also knew it would be painful to watch as it was happening.
Well, we're in the "as it is happening" portion of the program, and yeah, it's painful to watch.
The 2025 QB class isn’t that great. Not sure what Alt does for you other than you become the Browns with Joe Thomas. How did that work out for them? The mistake wasn’t moving up for a tackle and figuring out receiver later.
Disagree on the Maye comment. Football players play football; the ethos of the NFL is that you cannot bubble wrap players. It's hardwired and so not changing anytime soon.
As for Mayo, the reality is that this is going to be a multi-year rebuild, and the team is still very early in the process. Which means that there will be at least 4 or 5 more games like last night's. Roster talent is lacking to the point that Mayo will get a second year, unless they repeat last night's performance 14 more times this season (shades of Rod Rust).
Now, if Kraft doesn't accept the fact that it will be a multi-year rebuild, we are looking at a multi-decade rebuild.
I wonder if they can move Cole Strange to center. He would be size upgrade from David Andrews.
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I think there's a decent chance Strange is the C of the future. Or at least they try it. He played a game at C in college and there doesn't seem to be room for him at guard with Sow/Robinson/Onwenu. Hell, Michael Jordan might be their best OL through 3 games.
There is a difference between that and putting your rookie QB in an impossible situation that also happens to have high injury risk. If you want to start him behind a bad OL that has worked together 5-6 weeks and shows a semblance of cohesion, ok. Putting him in last night, with your 3rd stringers (behind the worst starting OT) in a lost game was batshit.
Gonzo was fantastic now? He tackled poorly, took some bad angles all night, and gave up a couple of key catches. His coverage numbers look good overall, but back to the situational argument. To be clear, I like him a lot. I think he is one of the relatively few talent building blocks this roster currently possesses. I don't think he had a good game last night.
I mean, the Browns were a historically poorly run franchise during Thomas' tenure there. I wouldn't point to them and say "See that's not why you take a tackle." Getting a HoF level tackle at 3 is a very very positive outcome for any franchise.
I'm just saying, it probably bears more discussion.
I assume this is Andrews last season. Yeah, he's under contract for next season, but he'll 33 and is showing obvious signs of decline.
They are close to being 2-1, let's settle down a little. On Simmons' podcast today they said that teams that play an OT game on Sunday, then a Thursday night game are 2-16 versus the spread.
I think they need to move Owenu back to guard, he was terrible in the second half against Seattle and bad tonight. He is a stopgap tackle. You need to be light on your feet and able to move well as a tackle, he is best as a roadgrater. The problem is their tackle situation is just pathetic. Is the Pats best oline, Lowe, Sow, Andrews, Owenu, and Wallace?
The defense was doomed when the offense could not run the ball. Barmore is such a huge loss. They tackled poorly as well, not a great showing but the offense has to do something.
This is a season about seeing what you have on the roster and the coaching staff, they need blue-chip players and if they draft in the top 5 they should get another one.
The only reason they are not 0-3 is because they got massively lucky in fumble luck against Cincy.
Yeah, the Jets only had 7 meaningful drives. Jets went
Punt (after penalty knocked them back to 2nd and long)
TD
TD
Missed 45yd FG
TD
Punt (after penalty knocked them back to 2nd and long)
FG
Punt (4 minutes left and just running out the clock)
So the answer here is they got off the field a couple times when the Jets committed penalties and held them to FG attempts twice, but otherwise couldn't stop them at all.
I took a ton of shit after the Seattle game when I pointed out that the defense really didn't play well, and last night the defense was once again very poor. What was supposed to be the one strength of the team has instead been yet another problem.
Marcus Jones is an exciting special teams returner. He does not look like a competent DB.
The defense was weird, in that.... they missed a million tackles. The way they have played all year is... stop the run, play safe on D, either Gonzo or a double on the top WR, give up short stuff in front of the sticks, rally and tackle.
Last night, the vast majority of what killed them was.... missed tackles meant plays that should end a drive didn't.... and they could not cover the TE when Rodgers got the edge and could not contain.
This team just doesn;t have the pass rush to not play bend don't break, but the way you need to execute that is with good tackling.
Last night, the vast majority of what killed them was.... missed tackles meant plays that should end a drive didn't.... and they could not cover the TE when Rodgers got the edge and could not contain.
This team just doesn;t have the pass rush to not play bend don't break, but the way you need to execute that is with good tackling.
Can we agree that they have less talent than the Bengals and Seahawks? Most NFL games this year have been low scoring, one score games. Last night was a shit show, l expect them to have a few of these this year. The Jets had the better QB, WR, OL, and DL. I want the team to be competitive and to develop players this year. You cannot expect them with this roster to be in all games. They have a bottom 3 Oline and bottom 5 WRs. This team needs players.
Yeah contain was just hideous all night. Sure, Rodgers is great at keeping plays alive even as an old man, but we were giving edges all night and not only occasionally. The missed tackles were bad enough, but some of that was the Jets earning those extra yards. The lack of edges kept drives alive because any pass rush was easily defeated and nobody can cover for 10 seconds.
Gonzo's man-to-man stats this year:
Ja'Marr Chase: 20 routes, 3 catches for 14 yards
DK Metcalf: 6 targets, 3 catches, 24 yards
Garrett Wilson: 20 routes run, 6 targets, 4 catches, 25 yards, TD
There are a lot of issue with the defense but Gonzalez is not one of them. He's faced 3 of the best WR in the game and has been a lockdown corner.
This is certainly one take. They were competitive in the first two games and both games could have been won by either team.
They were absolute garbage last night, there's no argument there.
They need impact talent across the board. The easiest way to acquire that talent is to lose a lot of games. It’s going to look very ugly but at times but that’s what they need to do.
They just did that last year. How many years are they going to have to lose a ton of games?
They should be better than the garbage we saw last night.
All anyone really wants to see is improvement. No one is expecting them to even make the playoffs, but no one should think that the Panthers-esque performance they put forth last night is acceptable either. They're spinning their wheels right now.
Why shouldn’t we expect bottom of the league performance? We have a rookie coach who had to assemble a coaching staff full of guys that were willing to work for a rookie coach. We have a number 3 overall pick that really shouldn’t be playing right now. They couldn’t convince anyone to take their money in free agency and play for said rookie coach. So they’re going to suck for 3/4 years and whoever the Krafts hire after Mayo & Wolf get canned will have some talent to work with. There are no quick fixes here.
Eh, short week, injuries on OL, DL, LB, led to what we saw last night. In a rebuild, these games should be expected from time to time.
I think most of us expected 4-6 wins this year. Yourself included. So, perhaps reconsider your first two sentences. We've got 14 games left, and not another on a short week, to see improvement. Let's see what happens.
Because we just had that last year and the entire point of cashiering the old coaching staff and thankfully the old starting QB was to improve on that.
There are no quick fixes, agreed. But they shouldn't be showing zero signs of improvement either. The OL is still a goddamn tire fire and Mayo appears completely overmatched. They have to be showing SOMETHING they're doing better. Maybe the one thing is at K but that's simply not enough. You could throw the last two games anywhere into last year's schedule and they wouldn't stand out at all. One close loss where they figured out a way to lose by collapsing in key moments, and one complete blowout where they looked like they couldn't beat the Ottawa Roughriders. (Rough Riders? I get them mixed up).
I mean.... they played tight with 2 playoff teams to start the year, winning one of them, then they got smoked by a likely playoff team while starting their 3rd string LT, backup LG, down their best DL, their best LB, and a bunch of other guys. There are no quick fixes as you say, and progress is rarely linear, especially game to game in the NFL. Building for a good team long term is going to involve reshaping in a way that sometimes means a step back to take steps forward.
While I’m usually more optimistic than SJH, I’m with him on this one.
Since Brady left, Pats had a losing season 3 of 4 years including 4 wins last year. How long do fans need to wait to watch an exciting team again? 6 years? 7?
There is so much turnover in the NFL, franchises routinely get better surprisingly quickly. Both the Lions and Texans were bad for 3 years before turning into Super Bowl contenders with top notch offenses.
I mean... the Lions were bad for 40 years?
But the bigger thing is... they fired the coach and the GM. Teams do not usually get better in 1 year (hell in 3 weeks?), especially when they don't have the ability to stockpile multiple 1sts.
The Patriots are all of like 6 months into their rebuild. If they look bad NEXT year, then you can start worrying about the rebuild.
They tried a post-Brady rebuild with Mac and Bill. Bill was given some rope, it was a disaster, so they fired Bill. Now we're on to a new GM and coach. Fast forward 12 months and if it still looks like this, we've got problems.
I am very worried that losing becomes a habit. Someone mentioned the Browns; the Browns made losing an institutional tradition for many years despite high draft picks because no one in the organization knew how to win and after a while the rot set in top to bottom.
The Pats are starting to become accustomed to losing, to put it bluntly. Not as badly as the Browns did, but 5-15 over their last 20 regular season games, 5-13 over their last 18 home games is a pretty terrible trend. One of the strengths of the dynasty years even apart from the GOAT-level QB play and coaching they received is that the players knew they could win and played appropriately. We're already seeing how quickly that can disappear from an organization, and how difficult it is to get back again.
I am worried that all the high draft picks in the world will not help an organization that gets used to losing. I hate tanking, I think it's counter-productive and stupid and doesn't work. I think back about the long stretches of futility that SF, CIN, CLE, DET and LAR/LV had, and seeing what I see now I don't see any particular reason why the Patriots would be immune to such things. I think they need to figure out this stuff rather quickly. The only way to get better is to win games.
I know this is going to make a lot of people roll their eyes, but a lot of this goes back to BB the GM. His last few drafts and FA signing periods had way more misses than hits and even the hits were limited by the fact the whole team was bad. That Mayo and Wolf (who I don't love but think is at least average) haven't been able to fix the team in like 6 months seems like an impossible standard to hold them to.
And they were also extremely competitive during the first two weeks of the season, even beating a team with Super Bowl aspirations on the road in Week 1.
This was a team that was projected by a lot of people to win four or fewer games this season--there are going to be some ugly losses in there. Last night was a trash performance, but there are some major overreactions in here.