The Game Goat Thread: Wk.2 at Seattle

j44thor

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Goat is Bill, Caserio and scouting dept. I get that the draft is hard but too often recently an average dynasty FFB player would be better suited drafting skill position players than the NE FO and that was on full display last night as the #1 drafted receiver faced off vs the #6 drafted receiver. One is a beast and elite deep threat, the other is a possession receiver who makes tough catches but can't break a tackle and has no deep speed which they knew going into the draft.
 

BaseballJones

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Last nights game was phenomenal. I thought NE would get pounded but they came within a yard of winning. Hard to get much closer than that. I’m not going to give out a goat for the week. The run defense struggled and the run offense did as well. But giving up 35 points to Wilson when he’s playing as well as he did isn’t disastrous. Two of his TD passes were just unfathomably great plays in excellent coverage that were inches away from not being completions at all. Sometimes great players just make great plays. And the D did score a TD themselves too.

Offensively they couldn’t run but I thought Cam was awesome last night. And that gives me hope that if they fall behind, he has the ability to make a comeback. There’s almost nobody that expected a Pats win in Seattle last night. But they stood toe to toe with them and that’s encouraging. And they did so with one or their primary weapons suddenly and tragically unavailable, and had to rework things on the fly.

The Pats served notice last night that they’re going to be a handful for any opponent this season. As far as losses go, this was as good as it gets.
 

tims4wins

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If someone had said Russ would throw for 5 TDs, you would have expected a Saints-Pats 2009 type outcome. That the Pats offense hung in there, and came back while having to throw the ball is a hugely positive sign. That said, it is possible Seattle’s D stinks.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Goat is Bill, Caserio and scouting dept. I get that the draft is hard but too often recently an average dynasty FFB player would be better suited drafting skill position players than the NE FO and that was on full display last night as the #1 drafted receiver faced off vs the #6 drafted receiver. One is a beast and elite deep threat, the other is a possession receiver who makes tough catches but can't break a tackle and has no deep speed which they knew going into the draft.
I think this is a bit harsh. Firstly, the stolen draft picks have finally come home to roost. Secondly, as you noted DK was the first WR off the board, so barring a trade he wasn't ending up in NE. That's not a BB/Caserio miss. Secondly, there's room for optimism with Harry. Yes, there's lots to improve, but he looks pretty solid. He won't blow the top off the defense, but if the catch and run talent shows, that's valuable in a McDaniels' offense. He definitely has better chemistry with Cam than Brady and he also won my respect taking that massive cheap shot and still producing. The "he needs to break tackles!" hot takes in the game thread were actually cracking me up. Yeah, super simple, kid, just break NFL tackles, duh. DK had four broken tackles in all of 2019 and has zero this year. Harry had one last year and has one this year. We're going to have to be patient with the kid.
 

EL Jeffe

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Wilson was absolutely spectacular. I can only blame the DBs and the ILBs so much. For one, the DBs were generally in good position; Seattle just made terrific plays. As for Bentley, he was excellent last week. This was a much tougher matchup for him, and I don't see DHT or KVN doing any better against that attack. Seattle had a great game plan, executed it just about flawlessly, and NE had the ball at their 1 yard line with 3 seconds left to win the game. It's just a What Are You Gonna Do? game. They came out of it healthy, and hopefully some confidence in the passing game.
 

Caspir

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If James White plays, they win. Sony is just a terrible running back and it kills the offense. Damien Harris can’t get healthy soon enough.

In the past two decades I don’t recall any “encouraging loss” because of our expectations going into the season. This was an encouraging loss because Seattle is elite and we hung in there. Cam is getting better by the day and I’m much more excited than I was two weeks ago.
 

cornwalls@6

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Last nights game was phenomenal. I thought NE would get pounded but they came within a yard of winning. Hard to get much closer than that. I’m not going to give out a goat for the week. The run defense struggled and the run offense did as well. But giving up 35 points to Wilson when he’s playing as well as he did isn’t disastrous. Two of his TD passes were just unfathomably great plays in excellent coverage that were inches away from not being completions at all. Sometimes great players just make great plays. And the D did score a TD themselves too.

Offensively they couldn’t run but I thought Cam was awesome last night. And that gives me hope that if they fall behind, he has the ability to make a comeback. There’s almost nobody that expected a Pats win in Seattle last night. But they stood toe to toe with them and that’s encouraging. And they did so with one or their primary weapons suddenly and tragically unavailable, and had to rework things on the fly.

The Pats served notice last night that they’re going to be a handful for any opponent this season. As far as losses go, this was as good as it gets.
In the sober light of day, agree with this. Wilson is just a tremendous player, and a few of those throws were unreal. Not as down on the secondary as I was in the heat of the game, though the front 7 really struggled to set an edge or apply much pressure. But the real encouraging take away for me was Cam. Healthy, he is such an electrifying, dynamic player. With his arm, and his legs. Putting up the numbers he did with that depleted receiving corps, and leading that drive at the end, despite not being able to punch it in, makes me hopeful they can hang with Baltimore or KC. Something I didn't think going into the season.
 

Oppo

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This team has barely begun finding its identity and realizing what a Cam-led offense can do. Imagine when Cam and the receivers build up chemistry and when they don’t have to hold back the playbook come playoff time.
2 games into the post-Brady era is looking alright.
 

BaseballJones

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Can I say it even as one of the biggest Brady fans on planet earth? Yeah, I'm gonna say it. Cam Newton right now is significantly better than Tom Brady is right now. The Patriots let Brady go and *upgraded* at the QB position.

That didn't feel very good to type, but it's the truth.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I came in to this one feeling a loss but that we’d come out of it actually feeling better about the team. Basically exactly what ended up happening. Pass rush outside Wino is going to be an issue, really hope Uche can help the speed of that unit. Bentley looked like late-career Jerod Mayo out there and basically unplayable.
 

j44thor

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I think this is a bit harsh. Firstly, the stolen draft picks have finally come home to roost. Secondly, as you noted DK was the first WR off the board, so barring a trade he wasn't ending up in NE. That's not a BB/Caserio miss. Secondly, there's room for optimism with Harry. Yes, there's lots to improve, but he looks pretty solid. He won't blow the top off the defense, but if the catch and run talent shows, that's valuable in a McDaniels' offense. He definitely has better chemistry with Cam than Brady and he also won my respect taking that massive cheap shot and still producing. The "he needs to break tackles!" hot takes in the game thread were actually cracking me up. Yeah, super simple, kid, just break NFL tackles, duh. DK had four broken tackles in all of 2019 and has zero this year. Harry had one last year and has one this year. We're going to have to be patient with the kid.
Harry was the first WR drafted in 2019...
 

BigSoxFan

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Did Asiasi play at all last night? I didn’t notice him but obviously could have missed him.
 
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Folk is no great shakes, but for the love of God, people are seriously railing against him bc the coaching staff was dumb enough to ask him to try a 51 yarder???

McDaniels had a few questionable calls, for sure, but the last playcall of the game was the call to make, they just didn’t execute.

My GOAT goes to the defense overall for being unable to cover OR contain. Wino played pretty well. Dugger was active. Obviously Devin made a play. But the D was pure garbage a lot of the time. That said, Seattle was unstoppable most of the night. Wilson is phenomenal.

The fact that Cam and Jules, and even Harry to a lesser extent, were able to come up in big spots and keep the team in the game til the very last second is reason for optimism. I feel better after this loss than I did after last week’s win.

edit typos and stuff
 
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BaseballJones

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If Cam was Lamar or even Wilson, he bounces it outside the Johnson block and walks into the end zone untouched. But Cam, while a great athlete especially for someone his size, isn't that jitterbug kind of runner. He tried to cut inside the block and got dropped.
 

loshjott

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I'm not a football guy but if you go back and look at the last play, Cam had the easy bounce out to the left pylon. He could've walked in. He has at times waited to see how the blocking unfolds but didn't in this case. The entire left side of the defense was hemmed in and pancaked. Anyway, not a football guy so not sure if he could ab lib there or what.
He said as much in his post game interviews.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Yeah, Johnson got destroyed on that play. Really everyone did. You can see the lane Cam is supposed to run into and all the blockers responsible for creating it go blown up.

I'm not sure he gets in even if he bounces outside, at full speed you can see one of the Seattle defenders cutting across at full speed. I think if Cam bounces outside that guy tackles him short of the end zone.

The Pats got completely outplayed on the most important snap of the game, which is very disappointing, even as the comeback to get into that position was gratifying. They need to execute better.
 

Bongorific

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I think this is a bit harsh. Firstly, the stolen draft picks have finally come home to roost. Secondly, as you noted DK was the first WR off the board, so barring a trade he wasn't ending up in NE. That's not a BB/Caserio miss. Secondly, there's room for optimism with Harry. Yes, there's lots to improve, but he looks pretty solid. He won't blow the top off the defense, but if the catch and run talent shows, that's valuable in a McDaniels' offense. He definitely has better chemistry with Cam than Brady and he also won my respect taking that massive cheap shot and still producing. The "he needs to break tackles!" hot takes in the game thread were actually cracking me up. Yeah, super simple, kid, just break NFL tackles, duh. DK had four broken tackles in all of 2019 and has zero this year. Harry had one last year and has one this year. We're going to have to be patient with the kid.
Huh? DK Was pick #64. N’Keal was #32.

Hollywood Brown was the first WR at #25.Then:
#32 N’Keal
#36 Deebo
#51 AJ Brown
#56 Hardman
#57 Arcega-Whiteside
#59 Parris Campbell
#62 Andy Isabella
#64 Metcalf
#66 Diontae Johnson
#67 Jalen Hurd
#76 McLaurin

Others: #149 Renfrow, #171 Slayton

I’m rooting for N’Keal. He looks better this year. But there are 10 receivers in that draft that look better than him including a half dozen true #1 receivers.

I think Patriots fans can be unfairly critical of their drafts. They are a top 5 drafting team and great at finding starters and depth. And that considers the number of picks that have been stolen and also that they rarely have high picks.

However, I do think the criticism is justified that they struggle picking WRs and RBs. They haven’t been great at it for 20 years. I’m not sure how much they’ve tried to change their philosophy during that stretch, but it seems like they need to take the George Constanza approach and just do the opposite of whatever they think they should do.
 
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CoffeeNerdness

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At least they didn't draft Arcega-Whiteside seven spots in front of DK. Either way, it's odd to rail on Harry after his literal best game as a pro.
 

lexrageorge

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Goat is the D, although I'm reluctant assigning a goat after this rock fight. Wilson is MVP caliber player with an excellent supporting cast around him. Pats have less talent than the Seahawks but showed some true resilience in coming up 1 yard short in their 4th quarter comeback.

Hard to blame coaching; honestly, the talent isn't there to stop a Wilson. McDaniels does have his moments, but that is typical of Josh. Sometimes those moments turn into big plays and he's the hero. NFL kickers need to make the kick that Folk missed.

On that last play, it was a tough assignment for the rookie Onwenu; hopefully it's a teaching moment for him, because he's shown some promise in this young season.

Harry had probably his best game as a pro. May never generate the return expected from a first round pick, but right now we just need steady performance at that position.

The schedule is still murderous. But I'm excited to see them go to battle, and a fight for a playoff spot is by no means out of the question.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Are people just forgetting that Harry was hurt last year or nah.

He's still very raw. He had a great game last night. Cam seems to trust him.

The constant criticism of him is baffling to me. He was touted as a very big, good hands WR who wouldn't get much separation but would be an excellent possession receiver. He took a huge hit last night, held onto the ball and continued playing.
 

Super Nomario

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At least they didn't draft Arcega-Whiteside seven spots in front of DK. Either way, it's odd to rail on Harry after his literal best game as a pro.
Kind of sad that 6 yards per target is his best game as a pro, and he really didn't do much until the last drive when the Seahawks played soft (FWIW, I'd put the Bengals game last year as his best). A step in the right direction though.
 
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One other GOAT from me, and I’m not quite sure whom to tag with this, JJ Taylor or the coaching staff. But for the love of CHRIST, why run the kickoffs out of the end zone at this point? The best case seems to be getting to the 28 or so. Three yards or even five yards is simply not worth the risk of turnover, penalty, injury. JJ ran it out and had just NO SHOT at gaining anything approaching meaningful field position. Unless the ball is kicked outside of the EZ, just take a knee and the ball at the 25.
 

lexrageorge

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Kind of sad that 6 yards per target is his best game as a pro, and he really didn't do much until the last drive when the Seahawks played soft (FWIW, I'd put the Bengals game last year as his best). A step in the right direction though.
The 4th quarter catches count. On one play he was targeted, the ball sailed way over his head while he breaking into the middle; seemed like a Cam error. Edelman had a ball sail through his hands in the end zone that would have sealed a win. It's not Harry's fault he was drafted where he was drafted. He did what was asked of him against Seattle.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Kind of sad that 6 yards per target is his best game as a pro, and he really didn't do much until the last drive when the Seahawks played soft (FWIW, I'd put the Bengals game last year as his best). A step in the right direction though.

So discount the fact he caught four balls for 8, 12, 13, and 17 yards- including the ball that set up the game winning attempt- all with less than 2 minutes on the clock? Yeesh. Yeah, 6 yards per catch looks bad on paper but so many of his routes were designed to be caught at or near the LOS. I'm excited to see how he grows with Cam at QB. Again, he's a weird player to target after he played a good game.
 

Super Nomario

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The 4th quarter catches count. On one play he was targeted, the ball sailed way over his head while he breaking into the middle; seemed like a Cam error. Edelman had a ball sail through his hands in the end zone that would have sealed a win. It's not Harry's fault he was drafted where he was drafted. He did what was asked of him against Seattle.
So discount the fact he caught four balls for 8, 12, 13, and 17 yards- including the ball that set up the game winning attempt- all with less than 2 minutes on the clock? Yeesh. Yeah, 6 yards per catch looks bad on paper but so many of his routes were designed to be caught at or near the LOS. I'm excited to see how he grows with Cam at QB. Again, he's a weird player to target after he played a good game.
I'm not calling Harry a goat. He was bad before the final drive, but he redeemed things there.

I think it's important to note that he was working against soft coverage on the final drive because a lot of his struggles last year and in Week 1 were against press and tight man coverage. I'm not seeing growth in that area so far this season. He's just being used more effectively: playing more in the slot, lining up in "nasty" splits tight to the formation, going in motion, etc. It's still early and he can get better.
 

cshea

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It seems like they have a hard time getting Harry the ball downfield. A lot of screens, swing passes and quick slants. He had a better game and the 4th down catch in the first quarter was among his best catches in his short career, but it'd be nice to get more chunk plays out of him.
 

Mooch

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Getting back to that goal line play, it was the same one that they ran for a Cam TD earlier in the game. With no pre-season, limited practice time and a sudden pre-game scratch of their most versatile backfield weapon, I'm not sure what else we could expect McD to call in that situation. I'm sure that this early in the season, they don't have a whole host of call/counter-call plays drawn up for every situation with a brand new QB. I'm going to give Josh a bit of a pass here on that last play call and just tip my cap to the Seahawks defense for making the stop.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I just don't fathom how anyone could be criticizing McDaniels too harshly when they put up that many points and almost came back from 12 points down with just over 4:00 remaining.
They came back and played well but the offense only put up 23 points after putting up 21 last week. The offensive success is getting overblown a bit because they finally figured things out with 4 mins left in the game. The 3rd quarter was particularly frustrating to watch.

Unrelated, but Carroll should be getting destroyed today for that decision to throw deep on 3rd and 2 on Seattle's final drive. His defense bailed him out of a week's worth of questions. That was unbelievably stupid of him.
 

Mystic Merlin

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They came back and played well but the offense only put up 23 points after putting up 21 last week. The offensive success is getting overblown a bit because they finally figured things out with 4 mins left in the game. The 3rd quarter was particularly frustrating to watch.

Unrelated, but Carroll should be getting destroyed today for that decision to throw deep on 3rd and 2 on Seattle's final drive. His defense bailed him out of a week's worth of questions. That was unbelievably stupid of him.
Yeah, I actually thought that throw was the worst call of the night. A run pass option with Russ rolling out would’ve been fine, for example, but I think the risk-reward calculus got lopsided for Seattle on that play. I’d be curious if that was Russ’ first read, it seemed like it.
 

BigSoxFan

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They came back and played well but the offense only put up 23 points after putting up 21 last week. The offensive success is getting overblown a bit because they finally figured things out with 4 mins left in the game. The 3rd quarter was particularly frustrating to watch.

Unrelated, but Carroll should be getting destroyed today for that decision to throw deep on 3rd and 2 on Seattle's final drive. His defense bailed him out of a week's worth of questions. That was unbelievably stupid of him.
100% on Carroll. Russ is great on those but you have Russ and Carson. Run the ball.

I think the offense was solid and they clearly benefitted from Seattle losing some key guys. I was generally encouraged since the passing game made some big plays. Hard to know how much the injuries played a roll but don’t really care. It was great to see Harry play the role we all envisioned. And Byrd was solid as well. Just hope Jules can hold up.
 

Super Nomario

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I just don't fathom how anyone could be criticizing McDaniels too harshly when they put up that many points and almost came back from 12 points down with just over 4:00 remaining.
I think all-in-all he called an very good game, but I thought they telegraphed things on the last play. They had no passing options, and no running options other than Cam.

The other play I didn't like was the handoff to Burkhead on 3rd-and-8. A "safe" call to get more yards for Folk lost two yards and he ended up missing the 51-yarder. But I can't come down on Josh too hard for last night.

They came back and played well but the offense only put up 23 points after putting up 21 last week. The offensive success is getting overblown a bit because they finally figured things out with 4 mins left in the game. The 3rd quarter was particularly frustrating to watch.
23 points but they lost a drive with the pick-six, and they ran out of time at the end of both halves. So it was 23 points on like 8 real drives, which is excellent. (Seattle also had just 10 drives compared to normal 11-12, so the D was even worse than 35 points indicates)
 

johnmd20

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Hollywood Brown was first off the board.
Yes, Brown was the first WR off the board. But Harry went 32nd and Deebo when 36th, AJ Brown went 52st, Mecole Hardman went 56th, Parris Campbell went 59th, DK Metcalf went 64th, and Diontae Johnson went 66th.

So that's a colossal miss. Frankly, Harry is much worse than all of those players in every way. He's miles away from Brown, Metcalf, and Johnson. It's a killer. AND the worst part is Harry being picked isn't even close to as bad as the Sony Michel debacle.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Yes, Brown was the first WR off the board. But Harry went 32nd and Deebo when 36th, AJ Brown went 52st, Mecole Hardman went 56th, Parris Campbell went 59th, DK Metcalf went 64th, and Diontae Johnson went 66th.

So that's a colossal miss. Frankly, Harry is much worse than all of those players in every way. He's miles away from Brown, Metcalf, and Johnson. It's a killer. AND the worst part is Harry being picked isn't even close to as bad as the Sony Michel debacle.
He's played 9 career games. Come on now.
 

BaseballJones

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It's not a "colossal miss"....yet. Harry very much still has tons of time to improve to WR1 status, which is really all you can ask even of a 1st round pick. Go back and read the scouting reports on Metcalf. Athletic freak for his size, but huge route-running questions, not a good high-pointer of the ball (despite his great size), and just not that productive in college despite his obvious athletic gifts. He was a boom-or-bust type of pick.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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23 points but they lost a drive with the pick-six, and they ran out of time at the end of both halves. So it was 23 points on like 8 real drives, which is excellent. (Seattle also had just 10 drives compared to normal 11-12, so the D was even worse than 35 points indicates)
Running out of time in both halves is likely a sign that the offense could do better and be more efficient. Some of that is due to lack of preseason and roster turnover, some of that is due to less than ideal playcalling. I can't criticize the final play call too much except to say that everyone knew what was coming. In a perfect world they'd have saved the toss to Johnson play for then but that's far too much to ask for, you can't possibly criticize them for using that play to score a TD earlier in the game.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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It's not a "colossal miss"....yet. Harry very much still has tons of time to improve to WR1 status, which is really all you can ask even of a 1st round pick. Go back and read the scouting reports on Metcalf. Athletic freak for his size, but huge route-running questions, not a good high-pointer of the ball (despite his great size), and just not that productive in college despite his obvious athletic gifts. He was a boom-or-bust type of pick.
And Metcalf gets to play with arguably the best QB in the game today (I think Wilson is better than Lamar and Mahomes and it's not particularly close). Harry got hurt last year, and is in a different system than Metcalf and is a different type of player.
 

Super Nomario

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Running out of time in both halves is likely a sign that the offense could do better and be more efficient.
You can make this argument about the final drive (when they had almost 2 minutes and 2 TOs to go 81 yards), but not the last drive in the first half, when they got the ball with 18 seconds left on their own 2.