The Game Goat Thread: Wk. 12 @ Minnesota

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Echoing the Jefferson praise as well as the observation that the defense was up against a beast. After watching him and Lamb play today, its easy to see why these players are so valuable - they are almost impossible to defend.
 

Salem's Lot

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Fix was in tonight. There was really nothing anyone could have done. When the refs swing 11 points in an NFL game like that, it’s almost impossible to overcome.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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After the Patriots benefited from a few missed calls on their punt return last week, are we really surprised the refs were in full tank mode? They used to win these games anyway, because they wouldn't beat themselves on top of the referees bullshit.

Bummer.
 

Gash Prex

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Always fun to identify those that need to be ignored

As for the loss -

1) special teams - 14 points is totally unacceptable

2) pass rush just didn’t show up

3) the refs
 

Ed Hillel

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Hope so but it will require winning one of the Bills games.

Getting a win tonight would have been immense for their playoff chances.
9 Wins? They have games against the Raiders and Cardinals left and then home games against Miami and Cincy, not like either of those are unwinnable. Even if they lose both to Buffalo, they'd need to take 3 out of 4 of those, very doable.
Echoing the Jefferson praise as well as the observation that the defense was up against a beast. After watching him and Lamb play today, its easy to see why these players are so valuable - they are almost impossible to defend.
Don't forget Hockenson. That dude has been hidden in Detroit - if he played on a contending team the past few years he'd already be a star. He's a beast.
 
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lars10

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Patricia, Dugger, Palardy, Jon Jones, the refs, etc. etc. Fine.

But it sure would be nice to have a QB who could be relied upon to see receivers when they're open. Or throw the ball away to avoid a sack at a key moment. Or lead a TD drive at the end of a game. Sure, Mac made a handful of good throws tonight and put up 382. But when he's needed most, he's simply not competitive. And when he the leader of your offense isn't competitive when the pressure is on, he deserves to be on this list.
yeah.. Mac was the problem tonight. /s

edit: how many hands have 28 fingers? And what AFC team would you not trade this receiving core for? With a 2nd year qb with his second offensive coach who also happens to be doing this for more or less the first time... with an O-line that is changing every week that has a number of key players hurt.. but yeah it's all on Mac.
 
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Echoing the Jefferson praise as well as the observation that the defense was up against a beast. After watching him and Lamb play today, its easy to see why these players are so valuable - they are almost impossible to defend.
I agree with this. It’s no accident that Allen leveled up after the Diggs trade. Same with Hurts / Brown, Tua / Hill, etc.

There are ~5 must have positions in the NFL - QB, Edge, CB, LT, and increasingly alpha WR. Jefferson is generational, but having a top 10 receiver (at that on a rookie contract) is almost as important as the QB itself in the modern NFL.
 

riboflav

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Found it interesting tonight that the only bad call BB argued and he normally only argues about refs procedural mistakes was the 473 Oline men the Vikings had downfield on a third down pass attempt that wasn’t called. I think this was the play right before the running into the punter play.
 

riboflav

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Wish I had not read that. Circling the wagons as they typically do. Makes you appreciate that the nba actually admits officials mistakes.
 

Jimbodandy

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Anyone mentioning even a part of this loss belonging to Mac is a shithead.

Too many blown assignments on defense. It's one thing when Jefferson is winning battles. It's another thing when guys are waltzing through the secondary without anyone near them. Back to the drawing board for this beast defense.
 

riboflav

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Cotillion

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Pierre Strong. If he is cut this week I won't be surprised.
The referees. Egregiously bad. I feel like I felt after Gronk was held in the endzone against Carolina years ago.

One more good draft this spring, loading up on O-Line, safety, and WR, and this team is going to be a fucking monster. Buffalo or KC better get it done this year, because this team is one year away. You watch.
Would it surprise you that game also involved Blakemen?
 

riboflav

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From my understanding “surviving the ground” is the old rule. No longer applies. Google it. There are 100s of articles on the rule change in 2018.. it was mentioned on the broadcast tonight several times as the current rule. Ugh.
 

SoxinSeattle

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Don't you still have to survive the ground if possession hasn't been established? Even if that is true they're still wrong. The ball hits the ground (barely) but doesn't move until its on top of Henry and hits the defenders helmet.
You could also argue the reach for the end zone established possession.
 

riboflav

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Everyone has gone to bed lol so here is my understanding of the new rule. The point is that the turf cannot aid you in catching the ball. Surviving the ground on a catch is the old rule. You can fiddle with the ball. When you see the juxtaposition of the Henry catch v Kelce catch it still leaves you with wtf NFL? What is a catch?
 

rodderick

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Trying to say Mac was one of the key reasons they lost last night is as silly as pretending he actually played well against the Jets. People are too entrenched in their opinion of Jones and shift reality around it to make a point, he was really good for most of the game and no QB is going to be perfect. I do have some concerns over his ability to take over games late and put together drives when it's do or die, but that's more of a development analysis than anything related to the Vikings game.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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How do they not scheme the fastest player on the field a single touch. Hate to say it but Pickens looks like an elite WR in PIT and Thornton looks like he might be a useful gadget player if he can stay healthy. A big if.
I don’t know why they drafted Thornton. Doesn’t fit their prototype successful receiver, doesn’t have a prototype NFL WR body that will hold up. And they went way off the board for him. Need to see a lot more from him.

And of course Pittsburgh made the right WR pick immediately after. Sickening.
 

tims4wins

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We went from the best situational team in football to one of the worst gradually over the last few years. I guess maybe situational awareness is what you work on when the other stuff is well under control and we don’t have the other stuff well under control.

When good decisions need to be made under pressure, we wilt. I don’t know who is to blame.
Nailed it. How has this happened.
 

Cotillion

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i don’t like conspiracy. He reffed the pats chiefs afc title game in Jan 2019 and we were ok with him then.
Nothing conspiratorial about the guy has some fairly incompetent reffing at very big moments and doesn’t understand the rule book.

He and his crew picked up that flag cause the ball was uncatchable. Ignoring the defensive hold/pass interference made it uncatchable. That play at the time was either defensive holding that has no requirement of catchable ball or DPI cause the guy literally bear hugged a player from going back to try to catch a pass.

And look here, he is mis interpreting a rule once again. It’s almost like he’s bad at this.
 

BigSoxFan

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I still cannot believe the coaches allowed anyone to rush the punter on that Strong play. In a game where offense reigned supreme, just get the ball back. It was a dumb play by Strong and obviously not what he was told…but don’t give the players an opportunity to screw up. Just an unforgivable mistake.

On the bright side, Mac played very well so that is encouraging. But this loss stings. It was right there for the taking.

And the refs were flat out awful.
 

IdiotKicker

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I don’t blame ST for two TDs, as Dugger was held directly at the point of attack on the KR TD. The Strong penalty was unacceptable though. Can’t do that. It’s stupid.

Other than that, while there were obviously some other problems, no one stood out as being particularly shitty other than Bryant, who I continue to think is the most useless player the Pats have kept on their freak for multiple seasons while actually seeing time and continually making game-altering mistakes.
 

tims4wins

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i don’t like conspiracy. He reffed the pats chiefs afc title game in Jan 2019 and we were ok with him then.
Not sure this is true.

They missed an offensive PI call like 5 yards downfield on one of the Chiefs TD.

They called a very questionable hold or PI (I forget) on JCJ on the game tying FG drive. Maybe 2 of them.

The only thing we were ok with was the Edelman non-muff.
 

Ed Hillel

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And of course Pittsburgh made the right WR pick immediately after. Sickening.
Pitt was reportedly going to draft Thornton, hence the Pats move on him.

I don’t understand the lack of usage with him. He had immediate success and now they never call his number.
 

lexrageorge

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Walt Anderson is in CYA mode because he knows the replay official blew the call. Call on the field was a TD. Evidence was insufficient to overturn, and the official got the rule wrong. And Anderson is quoting the incorrect rule in defense. Receivers make the same play in the middle of the field and it is almost always ruled a catch. So those 4 points are squarely on the officiating.

The kick coverage on that one kickoff was atrocious long before Dugger was held. But Pierre Strong's gaffe was egregious, and directly led to the loss. If the coaches dialed up the rush in that situation, they should be replaced. Otherwise, the player should be replaced. That play was Colts "swinging gate" bad.

I still don't believe people are blaming Mac for that loss. On the Pats penultimate drive, he hit Bourne and Stevenson perfectly, setting up Rham's nice YAC run. Blame the subsequent play calls on first and second down, and the sack was entirely on Trent Brown. The bomb to Agholor was on target, but a missed defensive hold compounded a delayed cut by the receiver.

Expecting Mac or any other NFL rostered QB being able to drive 89 yards with under a minute left and no timeouts and a porous OL is simply unrealistic.
 

Phil Plantier

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Special goat to the independent neurologist who somehow cleared Jacoby after his first catch so he could get some more brain damage on the second.
 

CFB_Rules

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Alex Kemp was the Referee. And if you want to litigate the 2019 Chiefs game with Blakeman you would be remiss not to mention this terrible roughing the passer:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVIp-N6LhI4


Alright let's talk about the catch. The NFL has tried to make this a checkbox process in order to make it as objective as possible. I see people posting the 2018 rule change, but not a lot of understanding of what the change is. They basically made the catch rule match the rule the NCAA has had for a long time. To have a catch, you need three elements in order:

1) Firm control of the ball

then

2) Two feet or any non-hand body part on the ground

then

3a) Survive the ground

OR

3b) Make a "football move", such as reaching the ball across the goal-line, warding off an opponent, etc.

The "3b" is the 2018 change. Previously, if a player was going to the ground, it didn't matter what else they were doing because they only needed to survive the ground. Now, the Dez Bryant play is a catch because he was reaching the ball across the line.

The Kelce play is a catch as soon as he tries to reach the ball across the goal-line, because he's checked all three boxes.

Now the HH play:

He jumps and controls the ball. That's part 1 satisfied. He lands on the ground with one foot and turns and reaches the ball across the goal-line. But, crucially, part 2 has not yet been checked off because there are not two feet on the ground, and the three-part process must be done in order. HH doesn't satisfy part two until his elbow contacts the ground in the endzone, after which point he clearly doesn't have any time to make a football play.

So we are back to surviving the ground to check the third box. I'll just paste the relevant rule here:

If a player who has completed the first two, but not the third requirement for possession, contacts the ground and loses control of the ball, there is no possession...
So did HH lose control? Yes.
Did the ball make contact with the ground (hand under it isn't material)? Yes.
 
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ngruz25

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Sure. When has an official ever admitted a mistake?

View: https://twitter.com/TonyCMKE/status/1595982017707274241

there is a word for what that statement from Walt is. And its what comes out of a horses behind
Isn't the salient difference between the two plays that Kelce had two feet down with the ball in his hands and Henry did not? Thus Kelce has established possession and Henry has not?

I'm pretty sure if you're diving for the ball, no part of the ball can touch the ground. I don't think it matters if your hand is on the ball, the point is that the ground can't help the catch. In Henry's case, the ball hit the ground (with his hand on it) before he had two feet down. If his hand had been completely under the ball, it would have been a catch.
 

Toe Nash

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OL was OK given the injuries, but still a weak spot. I thought Mac was very good and they clearly schemed to get the ball out quickly, but at the end of the game the OL couldn't hold up for some of the longer-developing plays they were trying to run.

Punter was bad, but again, he's not who they expected to have out there

Jefferson is amazing but was also wide open on some plays...the zone defense they were playing in much of the first half didn't make sense to me. The big question coming in was how the defense would do against a better passing team and they pretty much
failed.

Special goat to the independent neurologist who somehow cleared Jacoby after his first catch so he could get some more brain damage on the second.
He had a shoulder injury.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Blaming yesterday's loss on Mac is incredibly stupid.

Mac was sacked 3 times yesterday.

1. The first was definitely an error in judgment by him while running the 2 minute offense, but it was a play where Mac was flushed from the pocket, scrambled, and was tackled for no gain. I think in past years this would have been scored as a rush instead of as a sack, but I've been noticing this year that the scoring of these kinds of plays has changed. Anyway, his execution was fine on the whole drive but his judgment was off - he should have known to throw the ball away. I think he clicked into "run" mode, forgetting that he doesn't run well enough to run in that situation. That mistake componded an even worse error in judgment earlier in the drive, when Hunter Henry caught a pass, ran up the sideline, and, inexplicably, did not try to get out of bounds. On a play where 9 out of 10 NFL recevers would have stepped out of bounds even if the clock was no issue, Henry tried and failed to cut back inside. Each mistake forced the Pats to burn a time out. Hanging on to just one of those might have been enough to score. But mistakes happen. For Mac's haters, the standard he's being held to seems to be perfection.

2. The second came in the 4th quarter, just before the 2 minute drill, on a 3rd and 7, on the Minnesota 30. The sack is on Trent Brown, who attempted and whiffed on a cut block, which might have made sense if the receivers weren't running slower developing routes, but made no sense on that play.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeGiardi/status/1595997191239180288?s=20&t=izMpfKwUkDfMYOgLCBaeaA

Mike Giardi: Trent Brown allows that 3rd down sack. Parker settles in around 14 yards on his route, Agholor at 10-12 and Bourne is running a fade. Cut block there makes zero sense. #Patriots lose and fall to 6-5 on the year.

But it is all Mac's fault because, for him only, he needs to avoid the sack no matter what his OL does.

3. The third sack came on the first play of the final attempt at a drive, with the Pats needing to move the ball 89 yards in 5 seconds and score a TD. Scoring a TD on this drive was not a guarantee for prime Brady. The sack hurt, but the win probability was miniscule. According to ESPN, Minnesota;s win probability was 99.1% after the punt and return to the 11, and 99.9% after the sack. It was a situation with few good options and the sack didn't cost the team much.
 

lexrageorge

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Just a comment on the punt penalty: they called the same play against Indy and it led to a blocked punt.
Except the blocked punt was on a 4th-and-10 situation, so a running into the kicker play results in a retry of the kick. This was a 4th-and-3, and the defense was clearly unable to stop Jefferson. Far better option to let the punt fly; the game was tied at the time. Fireable or cuttable offense.
 

BaseballJones

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Wait, how is it immaterial that the hand was under the ball? If what hits the ground is actually Henry's HAND, with the ball on top, and the ball bounces up, he can juggle it for ten minutes like Kearse did in the Super Bowl, and as long as he catches it, it's a catch. That's what I see. Him making the catch, then the ball in his hand, with his hand under the ball, and the ball/hand - the hand being the thing that actually touches the ground and the ball on top of the hand - hitting the ground, then as he pulls it back in, he loses a little control and then quickly regains it.


On another note....the Pats were literally like three inches from winning this game.

The Henry catch/non-catch, which needed Zapruder-level frame-by-frame replay to overturn a touchdown, and then the Agholor non-catch when he was interfered with (and no call), which was *just* past his outstretched fingers.
 

IdiotKicker

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Alex Kemp was the Referee. And if you want to litigate the 2019 Chiefs game with Blakeman you would be remiss not to mention this terrible roughing the passer:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVIp-N6LhI4


Alright let's talk about the catch. The NFL has tried to make this a checkbox process in order to make it as objective as possible. I see people posting the 2018 rule change, but not a lot of understanding of what the change is. They basically made the catch rule match the rule the NCAA has had for a long time. To have a catch, you need three elements in order:

1) Firm control of the ball

then

2) Two feet or any non-hand body part on the ground

then

3a) Survive the ground

OR

3b) Make a "football move", such as reaching the ball across the goal-line, warding off an opponent, etc.

The "3b" is the 2018 change. Previously, if a player was going to the ground, it didn't matter what else they were doing because they only needed to survive the ground. Now, the Dez Bryant play is a catch because he was reaching the ball across the line.

The Kelce play is a catch as soon as he tries to reach the ball across the goal-line, because he's checked all three boxes.

Now the HH play:

He jumps and controls the ball. That's part 1 satisfied. He lands on the ground with one foot and turns and reaches the ball across the goal-line. But, crucially, part 2 has not yet been checked off because there are not two feet on the ground, and the three-part process must be done in order. HH doesn't satisfy part two until his elbow contacts the ground in the endzone, after which point he clearly doesn't have any time to make a football play.

So we are back to surviving the ground to check the third box. I'll just paste the relevant rule here:



So did HH lose control? Yes.
Did the ball make contact with the ground (hand under it isn't material)? Yes.
Movement of the ball does not constitute loss of control.

58114
 

IdiotKicker

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Oh and “surviving the ground” hasn’t been a thing since 2018. Like, what are we doing here? They fucked up, badly. He caught the ball, had a hand under it the whole time, and even if the ball moves, if it doesn’t actually hit the ground, the movement doesn’t matter.
 

Toe Nash

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Yeah, I understand that the play didn't end when he broke the plane, fine, but I thought he controlled the ball to the ground and his fingers were under the ball when it hit the ground. If it moved at that point it was still in his control, and then when he rolled over he never lost control. It did not seem like enough evidence to overturn at least. But oh well.
 

NDame616

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On the Pats 2nd to last drive I thought going to Rham 3 times in a row was stupid. He takes a screen pass 40 yards and then you follow it up with a run up the middle and another screen pass? I get it, Harris was out so the RB options were limited, but going to him 3 times in a row after he busted out a big run was dumb. This isn't Madden. Dudes get tired
 

CFB_Rules

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Wait, how is it immaterial that the hand was under the ball? If what hits the ground is actually Henry's HAND, with the ball on top, and the ball bounces up, he can juggle it for ten minutes like Kearse did in the Super Bowl, and as long as he catches it, it's a catch. That's what I see. Him making the catch, then the ball in his hand, with his hand under the ball, and the ball/hand - the hand being the thing that actually touches the ground and the ball on top of the hand - hitting the ground, then as he pulls it back in, he loses a little control and then quickly regains it.
I went and watched it again, this part is tight. But I think the ball does touch the ground.
Movement of the ball does not constitute loss of control.

View attachment 58114
You didn't read my post. (b) was not fulfilled until HH was on the ground, so this entire quoted paragraph is moot.
 

ngruz25

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Wait, how is it immaterial that the hand was under the ball? If what hits the ground is actually Henry's HAND, with the ball on top, and the ball bounces up, he can juggle it for ten minutes like Kearse did in the Super Bowl, and as long as he catches it, it's a catch. That's what I see. Him making the catch, then the ball in his hand, with his hand under the ball, and the ball/hand - the hand being the thing that actually touches the ground and the ball on top of the hand - hitting the ground, then as he pulls it back in, he loses a little control and then quickly regains it.


On another note....the Pats were literally like three inches from winning this game.

The Henry catch/non-catch, which needed Zapruder-level frame-by-frame replay to overturn a touchdown, and then the Agholor non-catch when he was interfered with (and no call), which was *just* past his outstretched fingers.
You definitely need to Zapruder this thing, which is frustrating because we thought the NFL had taken steps to streamline the process and reward catches that, well, look like catches.

The ball did, in fact, touch the ground. It's immaterial that Henry's hand was underneath part of the ball. Since he had not yet established possession with two feet down, no part of the ball can touch the ground.

View: https://twitter.com/PepperLePoodle/status/1596017860064968704?t=5lb24z8KvmIAZR9BqvhzNg&s=19
 

CFB_Rules

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Oh and “surviving the ground” hasn’t been a thing since 2018. Like, what are we doing here? They fucked up, badly. He caught the ball, had a hand under it the whole time, and even if the ball moves, if it doesn’t actually hit the ground, the movement doesn’t matter.
You are getting your info from football media, who quite frankly are not very good at their job. Survive the ground never went away, the rulebook is publicly available, and the relevant section has already been posted.
 

BaseballJones

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Yeah if you have to Zapruder it this much, you really can't overturn the call on the field.

But anyway, it's a loss. Two bad special teams plays cost them dearly. Once again stalling in the red zone cost them dearly. But there definitely were some positive things to take away from this. This season is running out of "well we lost but there were some positives" games, but still, moving forward, this is a game they can build on, I think.

In 7 of their previous 8 games, Minnesota had scored an average of 28 points a game. Then came the one stinker vs. Dallas. Clearly an outlier. Their offense put up 26 against New England.
 

Bleedred

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It begins and ends with the running into the kicker penalty. Games have missed calls, poor execution, dumb plays, blown assignments, etc. This was a nip and tuck game between two evenly matched teams. If the patriots get the ball back at that point in the game, tie score, then they have at least a 50% chance to win. Strong obviously fucked up, but the decision to try to block that punt was a mistake IMO.