The Game Ball Thread: Wk. 17 vs Miami
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Ahh, come on. Everyone knows these stats don't tell the full story. You wouldn't accept them as evidence in support of an argument you opposed. You're better than this.
This and similar posts reek of petulance. People aren't killing Mac for every bad throw. They're killing him for not seeing open receivers, and not feeling the blitz, and not having enough awareness of pressure in the pocket, and for his frequent whining attitude, and for lazy footwork, and for a handful of noncompetitive throws, and for his lack of production. And because most of these flaws are evident each and every week, game in and game out, like tittyfucking clockwork.
And while I'm bitching, I'm tired of the overly strenuous cheerleading whenever Mac makes a decent throw. JFC, congrats. You know who makes the occasional good throw? Gardner Minshew, Teddy Bridgewater, Jared Stidham, Skylar Thompson, Colt McCoy, Nick Foles, etc. Below average QBs can and do make some really great throws. That's what Mac is right now. I'm not saying he's fated to suck always. As was said earlier in this or another thread, it's very difficult to apportion blame here. But I'm so tired of certain posters giving Mac a pass because Patricia, the OL, or the WRs ... and then in the next breath confidently asserting that Zappe -- who also suffers from Patricia, the OL, and the WRs -- is most assuredly garbage.
This guy gets it. How many goddamn balls are we giving out? Six? Seven? Sure, give Mac the 7th game ball. But the top six go to defensive players.
Peppers has been hit or miss, but I think overall on the positive side and trending more that way as the season has gone on. The dude was an absolute monster in college, he reminded me a lot of Rodney Harrison. I think he could carve out a nice career for himself, especially if he stays with Belichick.
Game Balls to:
Dugger
Thornton (kid definitely has some talent, please no more Bethel Johnson comparisons)
Myers (glad we didn't cut him)
It's not just the stats. It's when the team needed a TD drive at the most important time of the season, Mac delivered big time. On that drive:
- Mac 16 to Bourne
- Mac 5 to Stevenson
- Mac 25 to Meyers on 3rd and 5
- Mac 3 yard sneak for first down
- Mac 4 to Henry
- DPI on deep throw to Meyers for 22 yards
- Mac INC
- Mac 1 to Meyers for a TD on a play where he made a quick adjustment and made a heady play
So that was Mac, in the biggest spot of the season, going 5-6 for 51 yards, making a couple of great decisions and also his best throw of the season.
Tom Brady didn't have a great game in SB 53, but he made the huge plays in the biggest, most important moments. We rightly lauded him for that.
As an aside, I really don't get the "Fire Achord" stuff outside the gamethread.
The return units have been excellent. The FG/XP unit has been very good.
The coverage units are mostly good (1 real bad game mixed in there).
Really there are only a couple concerns... Kickoffs and Punts, both of which are garbage and mostly on one guy (Palardy) and not the coaches, they can't punt or kick it for the guy.
I get that the drive behind it is a few more penalties than normal, but I think that's just a case of Bill letting Achord be aggressive and being willing to live with the occasional mistake because they are trying to make something happen (because the offense is garbage). Even there, the team is middle 3rd in penalties on ST, not horrific, just not excellent like we normally see.
The return units have been excellent. The FG/XP unit has been very good.
The coverage units are mostly good (1 real bad game mixed in there).
Really there are only a couple concerns... Kickoffs and Punts, both of which are garbage and mostly on one guy (Palardy) and not the coaches, they can't punt or kick it for the guy.
I get that the drive behind it is a few more penalties than normal, but I think that's just a case of Bill letting Achord be aggressive and being willing to live with the occasional mistake because they are trying to make something happen (because the offense is garbage). Even there, the team is middle 3rd in penalties on ST, not horrific, just not excellent like we normally see.
You're making a completely different argument now. Yes, I'm happy to admit this was one of Mac's better games, and very glad to see it. But this drive. There was the one very good throw to Meyers. The 16-yarder to Bourne was a screen and entirely YAC. The rest? Meh. Sure, it was a nice, heady play on the TD, but Bridgewater's go-ahead TD to Mostert in the 3rd quarter was at least as impressive. And Skyler Thompson's 4th and 7 pass to Hill with under 2 minutes to play was every bit as impressive as Mac's toss to Meyers.
That's pretty much my point. We laud Mac for a handful of plays that meh QBs make every week.
Edit: And Thompson's TD to Gesicki was pretty darn impressive, too.
I basically came here to write this.
Instead I’ll give an Honorable Mention to Jakobi Meyers who took big hits and hung onto an imperfect throw for the TD.
And while they had lowlights, I was happy to see Myles Bryant/Jon Jones are gamers — even with a 2nd and 3rd string QB Hill and Waddle are no joke, and Bryant’s open field tackle on Hill felt emblematic of a unit that made plays when they had to and kept the team in the game.
so receivers get credit when they make a play and Mac gets blame when they don't.. have I got that right? Where was that throw to Meyers supposed to be? Was it a slant or was it a back shoulder throw that Meyers had to stop and catch? Mac put that ball where only the receiver could catch it.
I mentioned it earlier, but a gold star to the bubblegum/ scotch tape secondary. Hill/Waddle combined for 100 yards. There are weeks where they get that piece. Doing that without multiple starters/regulars is impressive
General excellence? Agency in decisive plays? Exceeding usual level of play?
Sounds like we need a new thread addressing the theoretical underpinnings of the “game ball” concept and associated appropriate rationales for awarding them.
Sounds like we need a new thread addressing the theoretical underpinnings of the “game ball” concept and associated appropriate rationales for awarding them.
All I said was it was imperfect— I was impressed Meyers went up, caught the ball, and came down with it while getting his legs taken out.
As to the throw, credit to Mac for seeing him adjusting and getting him the ball. That’s what matters.
Still, Meyers was open — I’d like to see other angles but I don’t think Mac needed to throw him effectively a jump ball?
View: https://twitter.com/betmgm/status/1609652782524506112?s=46&t=hYr0Oo1KU5qGFfXshfRN1A
Mac made some beautiful throws late in this game. He also made some terrible throws earlier.
So it’s right to criticize Mac when he does something bad, but not right to praise him when he does something good, did I get that right?
If you don’t like Mac and think Zappe should be starting, fine - you share that opinion with many here. But getting mad because other people are pointing out some things Mac did well is a little weird.
While it is a game ball thread, I would love to know what is up with the missed extra points lately.
Also, I forgot to put Barmore on my list. He gets one.
Also, I forgot to put Barmore on my list. He gets one.
Sorry, but why should he have any role? Apart from his famous academic credentials, what demonstrates his value to this franchise? We don't know what he did with the defense his first time around but we do know his stint as an HC was a disaster. As far as I can tell his greatest ability is kissing BB's behind. He needs to be the first one to go this offseason.
No I’m making the argument that Mac’s performance based on his stats was pretty decent. Not amazing but not bad. And if the reply is, the stats don’t tell the whole story, then I say ok fine, he played great in the biggest spot and was a huge factor in them winning the game.
Folk has Palardy holding for him and is doing kickoffs too, yes? That would probably explain it.
Duggar gets my game ball in part because he clearly has not been 100% this season yet has had several ballhawking and game changing moments nonetheless.
I think we still have a bit of a steepish incline to get there but I would personally love to see this team get into the playoffs just so all the haters’ heads can explode and complain about the NFL and make every other excuse to hate on Mac and Patricia.
I want to see them get into the playoffs because they’re my favorite team and I always want them to do as well as possible.
Yeah, I just want to watch my team play the most meaningful games as possible. The whole "shoving it in people's faces" stuff I can do without, especially because making the playoffs doesn't mean there aren't tons of valid criticisms of the way this team was put together. Just get in and see what happens.
I'm pretty sure Belichick isn't keeping a guy around solely because he pumps up his tires.
Of course but I am completely exhausted by the sky-is-falling brigade this year. The media started it this offseason and a ton of fans fell in line. It’s not that they were necessarily wrong – the offense has been a mess all season and not really had any sense of momentum beyond maybe a handful of consecutive quarters. Instead it’s the combination of indignation and entitlement that burns me – as if people have just been waiting to dump on Bill all this time but never had any real ammunition.
We are the luckiest fan base in the history of sports to have Bill Belichick coaching our team. Even when it isn’t elite it is never boring and always fascinating. Enjoy it for chrissakes.
No, you got that wrong. I have no problem acknowledging nice plays by Mac, so long as they require at least a slightly elevated degree of difficulty. The 25-yard pass to Meyers was a great example. A big-time throw, as PFF would say. But I'm not going to praise him for throwing a screen to Bourne that goes for 16 yards, even if it's done with "the season on the line." Hey, I want Mac to succeed, but I'm not going to pretend that Skylar Thompson's throw to Hill on 4th and 7 or his TD to Gesicki weren't at least as impressive as anything Mac did yesterday.
A factor? Sure. It was one of his better games this season. But a huge factor? I didn't see it that way. A huge factor was whoever held Hill and Waddle to a combined 7 catches. Dugger was a huge factor. When you use phrases like this, "the biggest spot," and "at the most important time of the season," you're no longer making an argument but rather building a narrative ... one that's just not supported IMO by his actual performance on the field. YMMV.
Dugger- Continues to be a force with big pics, and big tackles in the secondary. One of Bills best picks in recent years.
Barmore- Was a big presence today, in both the run defense, and in collapsing the pocket in some key moments.
Myers- Made tough catches, in key spots, and took and endured punishment in the process. Really glad he wasn’t buried under the stadium after the fiasco in Las Vegas.
Coaching- a different one for me, because a lot of the very questionable game management that has plagued this team all year, was on display again today. Particularly the, IMO, very poor decisions to punt block early, and not kick a very make-able, game icing FG late. But, they got good plays called in the red zone on a couple of critical occasions today. And whatever else we can say about this team, their fight and compete level has not wavered this year. At least some of that should be credited to coaching and culture.
Barmore- Was a big presence today, in both the run defense, and in collapsing the pocket in some key moments.
Myers- Made tough catches, in key spots, and took and endured punishment in the process. Really glad he wasn’t buried under the stadium after the fiasco in Las Vegas.
Coaching- a different one for me, because a lot of the very questionable game management that has plagued this team all year, was on display again today. Particularly the, IMO, very poor decisions to punt block early, and not kick a very make-able, game icing FG late. But, they got good plays called in the red zone on a couple of critical occasions today. And whatever else we can say about this team, their fight and compete level has not wavered this year. At least some of that should be credited to coaching and culture.
Point of clarification but a FG would not have iced the game, it would have made it a 12 point game instead of a 9 point game. A first down would have iced the game.
Edit: beaten by @ZMart100
Fair point, should’ve put a “IMO” in front of ices the game, but I stand by my criticism of the call. Forcing them to score two TDs, with so little time, no timeouts, and requiring an onside kick, was the better gamble, I think.
I'm no expert but it looks to me like Jones threw the ball about +8' off the ground, basically where Meyers could grab it with a routine stretch over his head. Instead Meyers jumped about 2' off the ground and then caught the ball around his chest.
Going all the way back to 4th and 2 against Indy, BB has always favored going for the play that allows victory formation over putting themselves in various probabilities. That said, I'm sure there are percentages for all three scenarios.
I agreed with the decision to go for it; I did not like the call.
Defense gets a game ball for holding the WRs in check without any big plays. Everyone on that side of the ball is good.
Offense continues to suck. No one really did better or worse than usual IMO. Henry had a good game I guess. This time, they got the ball in the end zone twice without committing some awful mistake, but the 3rd and one sack in the second quarter that took them out of FG range where they didn't block Roberts (and ran a weird long-developing PA pass instead of just running for the yard) was in every way exemplary of the offense.
Offense continues to suck. No one really did better or worse than usual IMO. Henry had a good game I guess. This time, they got the ball in the end zone twice without committing some awful mistake, but the 3rd and one sack in the second quarter that took them out of FG range where they didn't block Roberts (and ran a weird long-developing PA pass instead of just running for the yard) was in every way exemplary of the offense.
Thornton had a very good game. Made a couple of really nice catches and his stat line - 3 rec, 60 yds, 1 td - would project out to a really good season of 51 rec, 1,020 yds, 17 td, especially for a rookie. If he had that game every week we'd see him as one of the better WRs in the league.
Again, my post wasn’t an attempted shot at Mac. I was mostly giving Jakobi credit for going up and getting the ball and coming down with it despite his legs getting taken out (smartly by the Miami defender) and landing hard. He completed the throw and recognized Meyers was open — credit to Mac. *
More globally, we’ll learn more about Mac next week perhaps. One of the reporters posted a photo from his locker before the last Bills game when he had a photo of himself walking off the field in Buffalo after last year’s playoff loss. Well, here’s his chance for redemption.
* On the goal line throw:
I really don’t mean to continue this train of thought here — it was a completed throw. Still, the pushback makes me genuinely curious if I’m misreading the throw. Sure, only Jakobi could get to it, but he had to stop and elevate where the defender could reach him.
I was expecting a back shoulder quick throw like the famous Brady-to-Edelman SB winner. Others who know more about this can correct me. I’ve heard receivers talk before about how they would rather have a ball at field level — easier to adjust to it and use your body to shield it from the defender.
Brady throw here:
View: https://twitter.com/nfl/status/1513955485438947336?s=46&t=uh6Cj_L_qgRRQdWLKfdWyg
General advice to stay on ground here: View: https://youtu.be/wXFSJgAwhx8
I was expecting a back shoulder quick throw like the famous Brady-to-Edelman SB winner. Others who know more about this can correct me. I’ve heard receivers talk before about how they would rather have a ball at field level — easier to adjust to it and use your body to shield it from the defender.
Brady throw here:
View: https://twitter.com/nfl/status/1513955485438947336?s=46&t=uh6Cj_L_qgRRQdWLKfdWyg
General advice to stay on ground here: View: https://youtu.be/wXFSJgAwhx8
I went back and watched all his targets because he didn't really stand out to me. Thornton played almost every snap and was officially targeted 7 times, catching 3. The 4 incompletions where 3 deep balls where he wasn't really open and Mac was just hucking it, and then the ball thrown behind him in the end zone that he juggled and ended up catching after stepping OOB (Hey, if he had caught that he'd be on pace for 34 touchdowns on the year -- that would be a record!). Maybe a better receiver makes that grab or doesn't step OOB while juggling it but Mac should have thrown it better as he was open.
For the catches, I think he was probably OOB on the first catch that stood, they got a little lucky there but we only got one replay. Solid catch on a pick play for the TD. Then a nice catch on a bad ball by Jones with no one around him.
He was a little better than usual but nowhere near a game ball. I'm glad they finally are running some pick routes when they have goal to go though. If Mac had the accuracy he was supposed to they'd be dangerous down there.
It's not about pumping his tires, it's about being having someone reliable to help run the team in BB's vision. There's enough anecdotal evidence that came out of Detroit that Patricia attempted to emulate BB's disciplinarian style of team administration and it failed spectacularly. So we have evidence that he's not good at running a team, and plenty of evidence this year that he's not good at running an offense. There's just nothing to indicate what value he brings to the team.
I think what BB does with Patricia in the offseason will be the most telling sign of how much he really wants to put in the effort for a complete team rebuild. Keeping losers like him on the staff because they fall in line for him vs. trying to assemble a coaching staff based on their merit.
Hell I'll give Mac a game ball just for buying in for a full game without throwing a tantrum at Patricia.
He had some good throws yesterday. He got the ball up 2 points with 10 minutes left and drove 11 plays and 89 yards and took advantage of an opportunity to hit Meyers on an ad libbed throw for a TD. The arguments for him getting a game ball aren't flawed just because you have an ax to grind about Mac.
Seems a bit much. I know folks don’t love Patricia, but wasn’t he a coach on 3 SB winning teams? How do we know that he “falls in line” any differently from other coaches that the team has employed? Feels like a lot of projection here.
Patricia is a good football coach. He's got a good overall track record. BUT...this is his first year with the offense, and the offense - which was pretty decent last year - has been pretty awful this year. The offense overall and the offensive line - which is also Patricia's area of responsibility - have been the two biggest problems for the team this year. It shows either that he's not good (and maybe never will be) at coaching OFFENSE, or that he eventually might be good but is just inexperienced right now. It will be interesting to see what BB believes about that.
That appears to be an illegal formation by the Patriots though, which is likely why Bill called TO.
They had 7 on the LOS. Thornton (in the NFL that's being on the LOS), the five offensive lineman, and the first TE on the right of the RT.
okay, I see Thornton a good yard off the LOS and I'm less sure, especially with some of the flags this year. I assume whoever is on the right (Ferentz?) reported eligible. I can't think of any other reason Bill is calling TO there, plenty of time on the play clock.
Except that he doesn't. He was objectively terrible as a head coach in Detroit and he's objectively terrible as an offensive coordinator. So all we have is his ability as a defensive coach and it's too difficult to parse out his or anyone's contributions on a team led by Belichick, who is going to have an outsized contribution to that side of the ball.
One of the hallmarks of Belichick's legacy is quickly jettisoning people who don't "do their job." He didn't this year, and he should be gone. I don't see BB moving him back to the defensive side of the ball with his son and Mayo both in position to advance, and I don't see him accepting the embarrassment of a demotion in responsibilities, even though he doesn't have a real title to begin with. Keeping him in the organization next year sends the message that there are considerations other than performance when it comes to staying employed with the Pats, and that goes against everything BB has stood for.
Or, far more likely scenario is that Belichick has different criteria for judging Patricia's performance as offensive coordinator than you do. He doesn't usually fire assistants.
My concern is his personal feelings and trust in Patricia as a friend will play a disproportionate part in any decision he makes regarding him as a coach. Bill is the one who volunteered he's at at a point in his career in which he just wants to coach players he likes, I'd assume that extends to assistants as well. He's human, he won't treat Patricia as he would an outsider doing the exact same job.
Ohhhh “entitlement”! The word of the year on SoSH!
It’s the audacity of people who want to watch a functional offense. How dare they?!
Yes, I think the reason we're all frustrated is that the defense is very good and resilient, putting up solid performances even with backups playing and is really carrying the team. It would be one thing if they were in a complete rebuild but if the offense was simply competent they could make a run. If Patricia is really the main reason for that, which is not unreasonable given that the personnel is pretty close to last year, then yes, I think we're entitled to have a offensive coordinator who doesn't suck shit.
Isn’t that quote about only wanting to coach guys he likes not exactly what he said / taken out of context? Maybe he’s got a blind spot and MP is truly a terrible coach, but who knows? Feels to me like folks complained quite a bit about JMD too. I don’t feel like any of us really have any knowledge or insight about Belichick’s relationship with any of the coaches or anyone, really, for that matter. It’s not like he chose Jon Bon Jovi as OC.
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