I was looking for a replay of the Verdugo play and couldn't find it because it was 2 days ago. Do you know where I could find it?
The Future of Alex Cora in Boston
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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You could have told me he wore #75 and I would have believed you lol, but thanks for saving me a google search
Here is a twitter link to the play - You can see Verdugo run hard, only after after looking back at the first baseman and realizing the play was going to second.
View: https://twitter.com/tylermilliken_/status/1666907057260314624
I don’t mind Cora as manager, but I agree with others who think he does better with a roster of established talent. The 2023 Sox have a dogshit roster, and it’s hard to find anyone (field player or pitcher) who is playing above their talent level (Verdugo if you squint hard?). Underachievers abound, with the exception of Yoshida, Verdugo, and maybe Wong.
Cora and the rest of the coaching staff should be judged less by this year’s W-L record and more by the progress and development of the young players who are projected to play key roles in 2024-2025, including Casas, Bello, et al, and I would argue Verdugo and Devers too.
Just throwing it out here, because I'm not in the clubhouse to know:
Does a team reflect the personality of its manager? With two outs in the 9th inning, the tying run at the plate, and the lineup a maddening 1-15 with runners on base, Cora was shown laughing and joking in the dugout. There are many other times he's been shown when the team is on its way to a frustrating or ugly loss, and he's chipper as anything in the dugout late in the game. So if he's not taking losses seriously, does that get passed down to the players as well? Despite his sometimes mysterious bullpen usage, I've been a Cora guy until this year. It seems that his deficiencies are more glaring in 2023.
Does a team reflect the personality of its manager? With two outs in the 9th inning, the tying run at the plate, and the lineup a maddening 1-15 with runners on base, Cora was shown laughing and joking in the dugout. There are many other times he's been shown when the team is on its way to a frustrating or ugly loss, and he's chipper as anything in the dugout late in the game. So if he's not taking losses seriously, does that get passed down to the players as well? Despite his sometimes mysterious bullpen usage, I've been a Cora guy until this year. It seems that his deficiencies are more glaring in 2023.
I noticed that too last night with the laughing. He doesn't seem to have a sense of urgency. I also noticed that the 2023 Red Sox have actually a worse record after 65 games than the 2022 Red Sox! So another season of mediocre baseball.
Really you can do better than this post. You watched the games last year, right? Where the team was excellent in May/June and then fell apart when everyone got injured at once in July?
Do you want him being all mad and swearing and throwing shit? That's a great way to start alienating players, especially veterans. He's not Billy Martin and he shouldn't be. I know we all piss and moan and lose sleep over these games, but they are games and the players, coaches, etc. don't just get paid if they win. He has to try to keep them loose as they navigate 162 games. Do you see the Royals' manager pitching fits? Or the Giants'? No, and it's the same reason why.
I don’t know a thing about how to manage a baseball team. I do know that even on SOSH managers are held to a ridiculously hindsight driven standard, where every alternative move would have worked, and there would have been zero impact on future innings or games. You can have two pages here on whether Cora should have pulled a pitcher or pinch hit before anyone bothers to discuss who was available in the bullpen or on the bench. After a guy gives up a bomb or strikes out, it all seems so obvious that the answer was “anyone else.”
Which I guess leads to my question — can anyone make a case that if you had this exact same team, another manager would be getting more out of them? I am not sure how we could ever know, but just like with pitching changes and the in game decisions, the discussion seems completely artificial and to only be taking one side of the equation. Is it just the equivalent of “anyone else”? Or, “we need a change”?
Take the manager du jour — Lovullo. Do we think this team is better with him? How much better? Maybe 34-31? Might we actually be worse?
What is the alternative and how is it better? I can get behind the idea that guys get set in their ways and sometimes they have to go because all the players can’t go. But we have seen what Cora can do with good ingredients. I’m not convinced or close to it that there is anyone that makes a significantly better meal with these ingredients.
Which I guess leads to my question — can anyone make a case that if you had this exact same team, another manager would be getting more out of them? I am not sure how we could ever know, but just like with pitching changes and the in game decisions, the discussion seems completely artificial and to only be taking one side of the equation. Is it just the equivalent of “anyone else”? Or, “we need a change”?
Take the manager du jour — Lovullo. Do we think this team is better with him? How much better? Maybe 34-31? Might we actually be worse?
What is the alternative and how is it better? I can get behind the idea that guys get set in their ways and sometimes they have to go because all the players can’t go. But we have seen what Cora can do with good ingredients. I’m not convinced or close to it that there is anyone that makes a significantly better meal with these ingredients.
It wasn't my contention that Farrell was better or worse than Cora. I was mearly pointing out a pertinent fact that Farrell and Cora had somewhat similar success, and Farrell was dismissed. Apparently, others disagree and want to stay the course,
I have no faith in Cora that he can "get the job done". I believe that the team needs a new field manager to shake things up. Opinion, no more, no less.
The days of flipping over the post game buffet table might be a thing of the past, but IMO A little well placed "passion" isn't a bad thing and there have certainly been times when Cora could have benched a player as he did earlier this week, but chose not to. The Sox exhibited some pretty shitty base running last season. Players running into a lot of outs on the base paths and it was often explained away as "we want to be aggressive on the bases" until it became such a comedy of base running errors that Cora's new response was "we need to do better". Just as Verdugo was benched earlier this week, I would have been more than OK seeing Duran yanked from the game following the Tapia little league, inside the park, home run last season. Not only wasn't he pulled from the game, but he started the next three. Maybe Cora's still feeling his way when it comes to handling players and I certainly understand wanting to keep certain things in house, but how much public embarrassment are you willing to take from and on behalf of your team before you make some changes in how you approach these situations?
Yes, the Sox lost yesterday, but they have been engaged in two consecutive neck-and-neck games in the Bronx. If you don't revel in battling in that sort of contested arena, then you're in the wrong business (player or manager).
I have knocked Cora for the team's sloppy, stupid ball for 2022 and (sigh) 2023, but I don't fault his 9th-inning demeanor yesterday. YMMV.
I have knocked Cora for the team's sloppy, stupid ball for 2022 and (sigh) 2023, but I don't fault his 9th-inning demeanor yesterday. YMMV.
Sorry, I should have explained it better. What I am trying to say is this 2023 Red Sox team might be end up with a worst record than the 2022 Red Sox. I was not expecting that.
Why would you think that's likely though? Are you expecting all our starters to get injured at once so we're forced to put Mata and Walter into regular starting roles? Are you expecting Devers and Yoshida to be playing through injuries concurrently that makes them both black holes for two months?
To be clear, we've already been through a plague of injuries this year and we're still dancing with .500 in one of the toughest divisions in the history of the sport. I don't think the comparison to 2022 holds.
To be clear, we've already been through a plague of injuries this year and we're still dancing with .500 in one of the toughest divisions in the history of the sport. I don't think the comparison to 2022 holds.
I'm not asking for Dick Williams or Billy Martin. That type of leadership doesn't work in 2023. However, as a player, wouldn't you a) want a manager who at least seems to be vested in your performance on the mound or in the box by watching and having your back rather than screwing around b) want a manager doing his job, which is looking for opposing defensive shifts, tipping pitches, positioning of the catcher, or anything similar to gain an advantage - even if there are two outs in the 9th?
And I'd guess that there were probably a few players off-camera laughing at the same thing he was.
The telecast caught Cora laughing in the dugout again tonight, right after a break for the Yankees. No wonder we lost! The players can’t be expected to play when their manager publicly chuckles!
Well, we won, but still. If Cora had thrown a chair instead of chuckling we would have won easier, no doubt.
Well, we won, but still. If Cora had thrown a chair instead of chuckling we would have won easier, no doubt.
Dead Howard Cosell.is still shitting on Jet lineman Garry Puetz for laughing at something while the Patriots were murdering the Jets. (Maybe during the Lou Holtz Jets interregnum?)
Is it time to seek somebody else to head this team? Casas hitting in key situations doesn't work. Tonight if Casas or a pinch hitter would have laid down a bunt in the ninth inning, the base hit that followed would have won the game. Instead Casas hits into a dp and with the inept Sox pitching, are down two runs in extra innings.
Can you name the last time Casas laid a bunt down at any level of baseball? We'll ignore that bunting a guy to 2nd there isn't really helpful and that Arroyo's AB probably plays out differently with a man on.
And if Casas or the pinch hitter had tried to bunt and made an out, I can only imagine the second guessing of Cora's decision.
I would argue you want Casas hitting in those situations to learn since this team's rotation was assembled out of a garbage bin and some young middle rotation organizational talent. I really have no problem with the job Cora has done with the talent presented to him.
I actually like the the job Cora has been doing. I think the team has been moving in a positive direction especially the player sticking around after this year besides Devers. The moment he starts panickily moving Whitlock or Houck to the bullpen to try to eek out a chance at a wild card spot, I may riot.
The issue was the offense that scored 1 run against a pitcher that no one here wanted on the 40 man roster.
This team should have scored 5 runs at least
This team should have scored 5 runs at least
Cora made some questionable bullpen moves last night that contributed to the loss.
I don't think one game should be the cause of Cora being let go but I would point to those decisions as the reason for the loss last night instead of anything to do with Casas.
I don't think one game should be the cause of Cora being let go but I would point to those decisions as the reason for the loss last night instead of anything to do with Casas.
You're not going to blame the players when they score 3 runs against a terrible pitching staff? It's the fault of the manager who deployed the pitchers who gave up one earned run in 10 innings? Casas might turn out to be a good player, but he's not one right now. It's okay to admit the players suck when they do and not blame it on the guy filling out the lineup card.
I would argue that since the players have had trouble scoring runs for like a month, Cora should be more aggressive at pulling relievers when it's clear they don't have it.
If he doesn't leave Nick in after he gave a walk to load the bases, maybe we end up winning the game last night.
Clearly the loss last night doesn't lie solely at Cora's feet but I think his bullpen management absolutely contributed to it.
I’ve been following the Sox since Ralph Houk was the manager, and there hasn’t been a season since where I haven’t seen Sox fans second-guess the skipper at every opportunity.
That includes the sainted Tito Francona, who was often pilloried here for his regular season in game moves throughout his tenure.
I’m usually ambivalent about managers, but I do know for sure that singling out a move or two (or lack there of) in games is not cause to replace the manager.
That includes the sainted Tito Francona, who was often pilloried here for his regular season in game moves throughout his tenure.
I’m usually ambivalent about managers, but I do know for sure that singling out a move or two (or lack there of) in games is not cause to replace the manager.
Sox announcers noted that Seabold had pitched well his last two times out (5 hits allowed in 11 1/3 innings, one outing against a good Arizona team). The Sox did better, with 6 hits in 6 innings. They should have plated at least 2 in the first, though. That's on Devers.
The one real problem I had with Cora last night was his keeping in Winckowski in the 8th. The guy's getting over the flu and he'd given up 3 hard hit balls in the inning, but Cora did nothing. That really ticked me off. The game never should have gone to extras.
hindsight is 20/20 but he’d gotten two quick outs, then an intentional walk. Given that the alternative at that point was giving a guy his MLB debut, sticking with Pivetta wasn’t crazy.
edit: and if the umpire doesn’t make a truly egregious call on the 2-1 pitch, we probably aren’t talking about this at all
It was especially perplexing to me after he didn't let Winckowski go 2 innings in game 1 of the double header against the Rays last weekend, which led to using both Martin and Jansen in that game, and ended up with them needing to use Jansen for the 2nd time that day in game 2.
I generally think Cora is a "not net negative" manager, but his bullpen use this season has been really kind of off to me.
Didn't the FranCOMA posts go away as soon as the curse was broken though? It is also true though that the Sox won a second title before the fanbase could get too soured. Tough crowd here though, that's for sure. Giants fans are still in the glow of their championships, never, left, never get mad.
Can you explain the bullpen he is suppose to manage? Because honestly it looks like Chaim is remembering guys who use to pitch seven years ago and seeing if they would be available for a couple of innings.
To paraphrase Walpole Joe, "these guys aren't as good as you think they are". I'll also refer to the Bobby Valentine era as the benchmark for questioning how much a manager impacts winning vs the quality of the roster.
Cora is miles above Bobby Valentine, and this team is likely closer to Joe Morgan's classic line on the 1992 team than anything else. The flaws in the roster have endured for 2 seasons, but really have been growing since the pandemic. It probably stems from a change in internal direction as well as simply being unlucky with player choices.
I have no idea whom should be fired, but a closer look doesn't show that Alex Cora is the root of the problem. Maybe part of the problem, but I would be shocked if a change in manager mid-season offered any tangible change in the direction of winning.
Cora is miles above Bobby Valentine, and this team is likely closer to Joe Morgan's classic line on the 1992 team than anything else. The flaws in the roster have endured for 2 seasons, but really have been growing since the pandemic. It probably stems from a change in internal direction as well as simply being unlucky with player choices.
I have no idea whom should be fired, but a closer look doesn't show that Alex Cora is the root of the problem. Maybe part of the problem, but I would be shocked if a change in manager mid-season offered any tangible change in the direction of winning.
When you are scuffling to score runs as this team has been for weeks now, you need to be a little more creative in your approach. Other teams are constantly putting the pressure on our defense, but we rarely put any pressure on the opponents. Watching leadoff doubles turn into zero runs, taylor -made double plays to end a rally, missed opportunities for hit and run, the lack of anyone outside of Duran even attempting to steal, etc...etc... is infuriating to watch night after night. Not sure who this is on...Cora? Bench coach or other coaches? the players? the analytic dept?
Are you saying Chaim didn't sign enough guys this offseason, or that he should have ninth and tenth and eleventh guys lined up to deal with injuries to Rodriguez, Strahm, Bleier etc.? Despite all that they are 13th in bullpen ERA at 3.95, ahead of Tampa, the Dodgers, the Mets, etc.
Well, they have an extremely slow team. Duran is fast, but then their next-fastest everyday player per Statcast is Verdugo, who is 213th in the majors overall. On the margins, that affects GIDPs too because slower teams will naturally expose themselves to more DPs.
I don't live in SF and don't know how those fans react.
But in my view, one of the many fun aspects of being a baseball fan is thinking along with the manager (and the GM for that matter). And yes, second guessing decisions. That's true of football, hockey and basketball too, but baseball is especially given to it given how many opportunities there are in the course of a game.
So whether it's Francona inexplicably burying Josh Reddick in favor of Darnell Freaking McDonald or starting several bench guys in the same game, or Cora's odd bullpen usage this season, or too many decisions to mention by Bobby Valentine, that's just part of it.
If doing that regularly makes this market different, and more "angry" than SF and other cities, then I'm glad i'm a fan of a team in this market.
Comparing fanbases is silly, but it's the height of silliness to compare the Giants fans to Red Sox fans. Giants fans, by and large, have wonderful weather year-round and low to no expectations in sports. Boston fans don't have either, even if they should on the second score (like this year, when a team that looked like a last place team on paper is still generating hand-wringing and second-guessing a guy who is trying to get through the season without his clubhouse imploding).
It might be when it happens repeatedly. Cora is not a great strategist. He likes to let his batters swing away. Of course, a lot of managers today don't believe in small ball.
No. That would have been good strategy but poor execution by the player. Not the manager's fault when that happens.
I said it could have been a pinch hitter for Casas. I would disagree that bunting the runner over wouldn't be helpful. It would have been a lot better than hitting into a double play.
You're right, if Cora knew for certain he was going to hit into a double play then a bunt would have been better. That's definitely how sports works.