The Chris Wallace Experience

Big John

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It got us Kedrick Brown
And Orien Greene

That's a good summary from Celtics Wire, although they have left some guys out, e.g. Jacob Evans and Landry Shamet.
We'll know tomorrow which intermational early entrants elect to stay in, and that may change the picture a little.
 

nighthob

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Wallace deserves a punch in his mouth for that whole draft. I hate that guy.
The worst part of it was that the next year, when Boston dealt for Tony Delk and Rodney Rodgers, the Suns were willing to take Brown and Forte in the deal. But Wallace insisted on dealing Joe Johnson instead.

First I've heard that too. I thought Giddens was a "take the highest ranked guy still available" pick.
Giddens wasn't the highest ranked guy still available so much as he was the type of guard that Ainge likes to draft, long, strong, and athletic.
 

Big John

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Wallace deserves a punch in his mouth for that whole draft. I hate that guy.
Forte was Auerbach's mistake. Wallace and everyone else in the organization wanted Tony Parker after he had an outstanding workout. But Forte had played at DeMatha for Auerbach's friend Morgan Wootten, and Auerbach overruled Wallace.
 

Jimbodandy

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Forte was Auerbach's mistake. Wallace and everyone else in the organization wanted Tony Parker after he had an outstanding workout. But Forte had played at DeMatha for Auerbach's friend Morgan Wootten, and Auerbach overruled Wallace.
I have heard the Red story with Forte. Wallace had the steering wheel. His list of shit is a mile long, even if you think that they didn't have the juice to take their guy.
 

nighthob

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Forte was Auerbach's mistake. Wallace and everyone else in the organization wanted Tony Parker after he had an outstanding workout. But Forte had played at DeMatha for Auerbach's friend Morgan Wootten, and Auerbach overruled Wallace.
Auerbach didn't have the power to overrule anyone in 2001. His position with the franchise was ceremonial in 2001 and had been for years. Boston had made promises to both Parker and Gilbert Arenas, thinking that only one of them would be available. But ended up taking Forte anyway since Wallace clearly had him higher on his personal list.

But even if you buy Wallace's self-servong bullshit, Auerbach wasn't the one that countered Phoenix's request of Keddrick Brown and Joe Forte for Rodgers and Delk with Joe fucking Johnson.
 

Big John

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I don't think Wallace had the steering wheel at that point. Auerbach was the president of the Celtics and a legend. Wallace was the former editor of a scouting yearbook who had been brought in along with Jim O'Brien by Pitino, who had just been fired. Wallace did not have either the stature or the job security to overrule Auerbach.

The Pheonix trade is entirely on Wallace-- and on O'Brien who wanted to replace his rookies with veterans. But drafting Forte was not his mistake.
 

nighthob

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Auerbach had literally been removed from the day to day operations of the franchise by Rick Pitino. Rich Pond (to refresh your memory, Pond was the Chief Operating Officer of the Celtics after Pitino's exit and was the guy making the decisions, he was the one that promoted Wallace and Papile and they answered to him) didn't defer to Auerbach in the least and Red was just a figurehead at that point.

EDIT: Also, your characterization of Wallace's past while strictly true, in a very limited sense, is also dishonest. When Pitino hired him Wallace had been the scouting director for the Miami Heat, who in turn had hired him from the Portland Trailblazer's front office where he was the assistant scouting director.

Wallace did edit a basketball scouting yearbook through the mid 90s, but it was something that he'd begun in the early 80s and kept on as a side project. He didn't get hired as Boston's personnel director because of his side project, he got hired because he'd been working in the NBA for a decade or so by the time that Pitino called.
 
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Jimbodandy

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I don't think Wallace had the steering wheel at that point. Auerbach was the president of the Celtics and a legend. Wallace was the former editor of a scouting yearbook who had been brought in along with Jim O'Brien by Pitino, who had just been fired. Wallace did not have either the stature or the job security to overrule Auerbach.

The Pheonix trade is entirely on Wallace-- and on O'Brien who wanted to replace his rookies with veterans. But drafting Forte was not his mistake.
Pitino publicly defrocked Red for this exact reason--so he wouldn't interfere. It was a huge deal at the time.

edit :nh beat me to it.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, that's basically a twice told tale where Parker recites the BS that Wallace fed him. Rich Pond, not Red Auerbach, was the man in charge of the Boston Celtics 2001. There's no way around that. One of them was COO, the other wasn't.
 

lexrageorge

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It was widely known that Auerbach wanted the Celtics to draft Forte. Red's position was entirely that of a figurehead at the time, and so Chris Wallace should rightfully get the blame, as he could have (and should have) ignored Red. But the fact remains that Auerbach still wanted Forte; that's not a BS story.
 

Jimbodandy

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It was widely known that Auerbach wanted the Celtics to draft Forte. Red's position was entirely that of a figurehead at the time, and so Chris Wallace should rightfully get the blame, as he could have (and should have) ignored Red. But the fact remains that Auerbach still wanted Forte; that's not a BS story.
This exactly
 

nighthob

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It was widely known that Auerbach wanted the Celtics to draft Forte. Red's position was entirely that of a figurehead at the time, and so Chris Wallace should rightfully get the blame, as he could have (and should have) ignored Red. But the fact remains that Auerbach still wanted Forte; that's not a BS story.
Right, that's what the rest of us have been saying. Red had been in a ceremonial position since the hiring of Pitino, and it was Wallace's job as the general manager to pick the guys he wanted.
 

Big John

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Wow, tough crowd. A relatively young, inexperienced GM like Wallace overrules an elder statesman like Auerbach at his peril, no matter who has the final authority. Had Forte turned out to be better than Parker, Wallace might not have an NBA job today.
 

nighthob

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Auerbach, literally, had no power to fire him. Rich Pond was running the franchise then, and he was Wallace’s boss, not the 84 year old guy that had been a corporate figurehead for years by then.
 

Jimbodandy

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Wallace shouldn't have an NBA job today. There are a few people in this forum more deserving (not I), not just based on that shitty draft. But when I look at the great GM squanders of all time, that draft is right there with the best of them (and the subsequent trading of Johnson over Forte/Brown).
 

Cesar Crespo

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Wallace shouldn't have an NBA job today. There are a few people in this forum more deserving (not I), not just based on that shitty draft. But when I look at the great GM squanders of all time, that draft is right there with the best of them (and the subsequent trading of Johnson over Forte/Brown).

People always say that but I doubt it very much. Everyone on this board would probably make a shit GM, especially when it comes to drafting players. Just look at the draft threads for proof of that. I mean, everyone says they would have drafted Giannis and all that, and maybe they would have, but they probably ignore when they wanted Dante Exum or Markelle Fultz.

90% of this board wanted Kris Dunn over Jaylen Brown.
 

bowiac

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People always say that but I doubt it very much. Everyone on this board would probably make a shit GM, especially when it comes to drafting players. Just look at the draft threads for proof of that. I mean, everyone says they would have drafted Giannis and all that, and maybe they would have, but they probably ignore when they wanted Dante Exum or Markelle Fultz.

90% of this board wanted Kris Dunn over Jaylen Brown.
A bit different to compare posters here to Danny Ainge than to Wallace.
 

moondog80

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Some website (may have been Barstool) offered a reward for a picture of Forte wearing the Scooby Doo shirt on the bench, but it remains elusive...
 

BigSoxFan

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I went to see Forte in his first Summer League game at UMass-Boston. He had a particularly crappy game and cried into the chest of Bill Guthridge in the hallway. I knew then and there that we were screwed.
 

Jimbodandy

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A bit different to compare posters here to Danny Ainge than to Wallace.
Exactly.

And even if 90% of us are idiots (I know that I am), there are a few here that I would select to run my draft long before I'd send him.

Ainge is hardly infallible, but his rare bad ideas are SOP for Wallace.
 

Big John

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If
Auerbach, literally, had no power to fire him. Rich Pond was running the franchise then, and he was Wallace’s boss, not the 84 year old guy that had been a corporate figurehead for years by then.
Yeah, the corporate figurehead of a franchise that Paul Gaston was trying to sell. In fact Pond was the finance guy who took the Celtics private so that the franchise could be sold to the Grousbecks. If Auerbach had gone to the Gastons, cigar in hand, and said, "This young pup Wallace doesn't know what he is doing. It;'s him or me," what do you think would have happened?

Sorry to push back one one time. And I'm not claiming that Wallace was, or is, a decent GM. He's mediocre at best. But it's unfair to blame him for Forte.
 

nighthob

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You're again mistaken, they were trying to line up the new cable deal in 2001. That was the actual prerequisite to putting the team on the market, not placating the 84 year old man that wasn't living in Boston at the time.

Red, literally, had nothing to do with the franchise by then. He made a few public appearances per year. And if the 84 year old had gone to Thanks Dad! and demanded that Wallace be fired Thanks Dad! would have laughed and told him to go talk to the guy running the team.

Wallace drafted Forte because he had him higher on his prospect list than either of the two guys that he'd made promises to. And that was Wallace all over. Portland had made a large offer for Boston's second pick back before the '01 draft in order to nab Brown, but he turned that down too because he had Brown very highly rated.

And the killer mistake wasn't even picking Forte per se, it was failing to bundle his two guys for the roleplayers the '02 team needed when Phoenix asked for them.
 

nighthob

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Wallace shouldn't have an NBA job today. There are a few people in this forum more deserving (not I), not just based on that shitty draft. But when I look at the great GM squanders of all time, that draft is right there with the best of them (and the subsequent trading of Johnson over Forte/Brown).
In fairness Wallace has been very good at what he's actually in the NBA to do, namely field relatively inexpensive competitive teams. You don't hire Wallace because you have ambitions of winning a title, you hire him because you want your team to make the playoffs without paying luxury taxes.

Even the trade widely regarded as his second worst (the Vin Baker deal) made Thanks Dad! some $12-$15 million (figuring in the luxury taxes saved and the money Boston collected from the then valuable luxury tax disbursement).
 

Van Everyman

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You're again mistaken, they were trying to line up the new cable deal in 2001. That was the actual prerequisite to putting the team on the market, not placating the 84 year old man that wasn't living in Boston at the time.

Red, literally, had nothing to do with the franchise by then. He made a few public appearances per year. And if the 84 year old had gone to Thanks Dad! and demanded that Wallace be fired Thanks Dad! would have laughed and told him to go talk to the guy running the team.

Wallace drafted Forte because he had him higher on his prospect list than either of the two guys that he'd made promises to. And that was Wallace all over. Portland had made a large offer for Boston's second pick back before the '01 draft in order to nab Brown, but he turned that down too because he had Brown very highly rated.

And the killer mistake wasn't even picking Forte per se, it was failing to bundle his two guys for the roleplayers the '02 team needed when Phoenix asked for them.
So I did not know this history when I opened this thread -- but how do you reconcile "Red, literally, had nothing to do with the franchise by then" with that whole John Feinstein interview posted upthread where Red is quoted explaining what he, you know, had to do with the franchise then?
 

nighthob

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I went to see Forte in his first Summer League game at UMass-Boston. He had a particularly crappy game and cried into the chest of Bill Guthridge in the hallway. I knew then and there that we were screwed.
Ask HRB to tell you his draft night 2001 story some time. I ruined my TV that night throwing a can of Murphy's at it in ragestration (the beer spray wrecked havoc with the electronics).
 

nighthob

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So I did not know this history when I opened this thread -- but how do you reconcile "Red, literally, had nothing to do with the franchise by then" with that whole John Feinstein interview posted upthread where Red is quoted explaining what he, you know, had to do with the franchise then?
Because He had been removed from any and all day to day management of the team by Pitino, and Thanks Dad! appointed Rich Pond to run the team when Pitino told them he was leaving. So, yes, I take the word of the org over the memories of a then 86 year old. Those memories are always going to be cloudy (dealing with an 81 year old father I'm well aware of the drill). I've no doubt that he recommended Forte to Wallace, but if Wallace didn't have Forte rated over the two guys he'd made promises to (Parker and Arenas) then he wouldn't have been the pick period.

(Off topic, but in the realm of theoreticals, how different would Agent Zero have turned out if Wallace had kept his promise to him and he'd cut his teeth on a defensive oriented team that emphasized three point shooting and shots at the rim? What could O'Brien have done if he'd had Johnson and Arenas to add to Pierce?)
 

BigSoxFan

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Ask HRB to tell you his draft night 2001 story some time. I ruined my TV that night throwing a can of Murphy's at it in ragestration (the beer spray wrecked havoc with the electronics).
HRB,

The floor is yours...
 

HomeRunBaker

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In fairness Wallace has been very good at what he's actually in the NBA to do, namely field relatively inexpensive competitive teams. You don't hire Wallace because you have ambitions of winning a title, you hire him because you want your team to make the playoffs without paying luxury taxes.

Even the trade widely regarded as his second worst (the Vin Baker deal) made Thanks Dad! some $12-$15 million (figuring in the luxury taxes saved and the money Boston collected from the then valuable luxury tax disbursement).
I came here to post similar about Wallace. He accomplished in Boston exactly what he was hired to do (the Phoenix deal was brilliant in achieving its objectives even if he gave up the wrong rookie). His work here mastering the financial side of the business is why owners and Presidents tools notice as Jerry West, with Heisley's blessing, hired him in the late 2000's. Wallace assembled that Memphis playoff team on a shoestring budget in acquiring Gasol, Z-Bo, Conley and Tony Allen.
 

lexrageorge

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I came here to post similar about Wallace. He accomplished in Boston exactly what he was hired to do (the Phoenix deal was brilliant in achieving its objectives even if he gave up the wrong rookie). His work here mastering the financial side of the business is why owners and Presidents tools notice as Jerry West, with Heisley's blessing, hired him in the late 2000's. Wallace assembled that Memphis playoff team on a shoestring budget in acquiring Gasol, Z-Bo, Conley and Tony Allen.
And left the team in such a mess that it took Ainge years to rebuild.
 

HomeRunBaker

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And left the team in such a mess that it took Ainge years to rebuild.
That had nothing to do with his job description. Gaston was selling the team and it was all about the luxury tax, us being hampered with awful long term contracts, and the timeline with him selling the team. There was zero initiative to leave the roster in any particular shape after the sale of the franchise. Jerry West and others recognized this......it's a bitter pill to swallow for some as a Celtics fan but these were the business realities at the time. Wallace massively succeeded at what he was hired to do here. nighthob discussed this upthread.
 

lexrageorge

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That had nothing to do with his job description. Gaston was selling the team and it was all about the luxury tax, us being hampered with awful long term contracts, and the timeline with him selling the team. There was zero initiative to leave the roster in any particular shape after the sale of the franchise. Jerry West and others recognized this......it's a bitter pill to swallow for some as a Celtics fan but these were the business realities at the time. Wallace massively succeeded at what he was hired to do here. nighthob discussed this upthread.
It's amazing to note that such a storied franchise has had a history of such awful owners. Gaston was the worst owner a fan would want to have running their team; I seem to recall that he mandated that the team play with 2 open roster spots in order to save money. And he was by no means the worst owner in Celtics history.
 

HomeRunBaker

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HRB,

The floor is yours...
I've shared this many times here, at the old ChairChuckers (whatever happened to SpacemansGerbil?), and Stuckon16/CelticsNuts but here goes...….

After college my old teammate at Guilford College in Greensboro, NC continued playing pickup ball and our Ragan-Brown Fieldhouse held some legendary summer pickup games back in the late 90's/early 2000's consisting of all the UNC guys, NBA players from the area, along with those from local D-3 schools (I've played with/against many d-bags but none touches the level of Jeff McInnis when I was there in my college summers who singlehandedly put an end to these runs after I left school by starting fights with all the local guys....but I digress).

He ran with Forte some but he was an infrequent visitor. More importantly he heard guys talk about Forte when he wasn't there (which was most of the time) and everyone knew he was a dog. Fast forward to draft night. I'm on my recliner glued to the TV as my roommate comes into the room curious as to who my team was picking. We desperately needed a PG and the three top guys were Jamaal Tinsley (who I loved), Tony Parker and Omar Cook......all of who I liked (yes even Cook....fail). There was also a couple of 2-guards in that range, Forte and Gilbert Arenas, the latter already had whispers about him of being completely insane.

Recalling best I can.....we are on the clock. My roommate was a quiet person so he hadn't said much until he blurts out, "You know you don't want Forte here, right?" I brush him off with a "I'm not worried about that.He can never play the 1 in this league and we need a 1......as long as it's Tinsley, Parker or Cook I'm good." Here comes Stern, WITH THE 21st PICK IN THE 2001 NBA DRAFT THE BOSTON CELTICS SELECT......FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA. JOE FORTE!

Roommate stares at TV with mouth open and silent. He digests the pick, stands up to leave room tapping me on shoulder and simply whispering, "Good Luck with that." We know the rest of the story. Kid was a complete dog as his teammates knew and dumb as rocks.
 

nighthob

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It's amazing to note that such a storied franchise has had a history of such awful owners. Gaston was the worst owner a fan would want to have running their team; I seem to recall that he mandated that the team play with 2 open roster spots in order to save money. And he was by no means the worst owner in Celtics history.
Thanks Dad! Was probably more damaging than John Y Brown by virtue of having built a reputation amongst agents and players as Sterling East in the midst of the free agent era, which made the Celtics anathema for years. It took Kevin Garnett in his prime to erase that stain from the franchise.
 

Devizier

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Just thinking about this era in Celtics history makes me grit my teeth

At least we came out with Pierce after all that shit
 

richgedman'sghost

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Could someone tell me where this thread began. It seems like it was broken off from another thread but is there any reason why we are talking about Chris Wallace all of a sudden? What has he done to deserve his own thread? On a different topic who would be the worst Celtic owner of all time? I was ready to nominate Gov. John Brown but Lexaragorge makes a compelling case for ThanksDad Gaston as the worst owner.
 

nighthob

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I think it started in the draft thread when someone asked why a team drafting in the late first would make a promise to a prospect, which led to the predictable Chris Wallace jokes given that he kept his promise to Keddrick Brown while breaking promises to Tony Parker and Gilbert Arenas.

Also, I think Lexrageorge was arguing for John Y Brown as the worst, I was the one positing that Thanks Dad! was worse based on the fact that he took over the team just as real free agency finally arrived in the NBA.
 

lexrageorge

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Could someone tell me where this thread began. It seems like it was broken off from another thread but is there any reason why we are talking about Chris Wallace all of a sudden? What has he done to deserve his own thread? On a different topic who would be the worst Celtic owner of all time? I was ready to nominate Gov. John Brown but Lexaragorge makes a compelling case for ThanksDad Gaston as the worst owner.
Sorry, I cannot take credit for the final bit. That goes to nighthob. Then again, I recall Irv Levin nearly moving the team west after they won the title in 1976, and then handing the franchise to John Y Brown. At least Brown didn't last long; ThanksDad! stuck around long enough to leave things a real mess that took years to recover from.
 

nighthob

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Sorry, I cannot take credit for the final bit. That goes to nighthob. Then again, I recall Irv Levin nearly moving the team west after they won the title in 1976, and then handing the franchise to John Y Brown. At least Brown didn't last long; ThanksDad! stuck around long enough to leave things a real mess that took years to recover from.
I'll give Levin a pass because the mistake he made in the franchise swap set up the 80s dynasty. Similarly I give John Y a pass because as bad as the McAdoo trade was (it did lead to the Season That Shall Not Be Named™), it set Boston up for the Parish/McHale trade.