The Celtics Offseason

ugmo33

Member
SoSH Member
May 6, 2016
165
If I'm Orlando I'd say no and wish the Celtics luck. I'm probably overly bullish on both Franzie/WCJ (& so are Orlando probably)

I'm guessing that the NBA forcing this CBA/Hard Cap situation on NBA teams this quickly will lead to Super MAX players being spread across the league instead of concentrated on teams like the Warriors. Expecting the C's to kick the can down the road and keep the JAYs
I agree on Orlando. They need a guard not another wing.

Personally, I think selling high in Brogdon might be a good bet. This was his healthiest season in a long time. What about something with the Lakers for Vanderbilt and Beasley? Or with the Jazz for Olynyk and....someone?
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,769
I agree on Orlando. They need a guard not another wing.

Personally, I think selling high in Brogdon might be a good bet. This was his healthiest season in a long time. What about something with the Lakers for Vanderbilt and Beasley? Or with the Jazz for Olynyk and....someone?
How about Covington, Terance Mann, and a 2nd or two for Brogdon?
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,292
Santa Monica
I agree on Orlando. They need a guard not another wing.

Personally, I think selling high in Brogdon might be a good bet. This was his healthiest season in a long time. What about something with the Lakers for Vanderbilt and Beasley? Or with the Jazz for Olynyk and....someone?
Vanderbilt wouldn't be a bad depth option. Maybe a PP for Vandy would work straight up if the Lakers resign Rui.
Not a Beasley fan at all.

Kelly O would work.
Kyle Anderson has been a fav of mine for years and would love to pounce on the Rudy/Kyle fight, especially if the Wolves re-sign Naz Reid
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,292
Santa Monica
I don't know if either team would accept this but how about Brogdon/TimeLord for Gary Harris, WCJ, and Cole Anthony?

The Magic get back shooting, an "adult in the room", and a big upside play in TimeLord. Celtics clear a bit of salary this year and Harris is on an expiring. Cole Anthony isn't an ideal PG but he can fill it up and gives the Celtics a bit of a hedge option with PP as the 3rd guard. WCJ isn't as good as Rob when they're both healthy but Carter's a more dependable player as well as being a bit more system malleable than TL.

Magic could also take Dereck Lively at 11 as a TL hedge.
I'm a huge TL fan. Contract + Upside. When healthy he is the 4th best player on this team IMO
I'd use the regular season to figure out rotations while shrink-wrapping TL/Al and play a lot of the roster. regular season record isn't all that important.

When Rob is healthy/active, he is a Top5 defensive disruptor. So Boston needs to figure out how to play him ~20mpg during the regular season & manipulate his minutes to upward slope by the playoffs (easier said than done).

Rob's value is greatest with a team like Boston (gtd a playoff spot) while teams fighting for a playoff spot would be screwed by Rob's fragileness during the long NBA regular season.

That being said I'd love Brad to get WCJ and try to use Brogdon + a First OR Smart + our Eurostash if they want an adult in their backcourt.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,556
Somewhere
If we're going to imagine trade scenarios, I'd like to see what it would take to convince Chicago to separate with Alex Caruso. Almost certainly draft picks because if they let him walk it's because they feel it's time for a rebuild (i.e. Lonzo is never coming back).
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,588
If we're going to imagine trade scenarios, I'd like to see what it would take to convince Chicago to separate with Alex Caruso. Almost certainly draft picks because if they let him walk it's because they feel it's time for a rebuild (i.e. Lonzo is never coming back).
why would we need another defense only combo-guard?
 

Swedgin

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2013
702
Any thoughts on Spencer Dinwiddie? Fewer turnovers with higher usage than Smart, slightly better assist percentage.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,239
why would we need another defense only combo-guard?
It would be complicated as you'd have to move Brogdon's 2/$45m and then receive youth/picks to move to Chicago. Essentially a 3-way deal when the contender who would trade for Brogdon can simply move their youth/picks thay they would send to us to Chicago for Caruso and his 2/$19m. Seems like a lot of activity that doesn't change much for anyone.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,588
It would be complicated as you'd have to move Brogdon's 2/$45m and then receive youth/picks to move to Chicago. Essentially a 3-way deal when the contender who would trade for Brogdon can simply move their youth/picks thay they would send to us to Chicago for Caruso and his 2/$19m. Seems like a lot of activity that doesn't change much for anyone.
Caruso to me only make sense if he's replacing Smart, as he duplicates his defensive skill and brings arguably less to the table offensively.
 

PRabbit

New Member
Apr 3, 2022
116
If I'm Brad, I'm trying to ship Smart out for a rotational big. Hand White PG duties, maybe PP will calm down on his trade request. if he sees a path to actual minutes. We see more Point Tatum next season I think, so IMO the need for a pass-first PG isn't there. Neither Al nor Timelord can be counted on for health or big minutes, and we have no one else I'd trust besides them I'd trust on the floor for starter minutes in the playoffs. Capela?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,239
Caruso to me only make sense if he's replacing Smart, as he duplicates his defensive skill and brings arguably less to the table offensively.
Yeah I don't see that happening. As much (unwarranted imo) vitriol he takes in the Cellar he's a crucial piece of this core and our defensively switchability. He's also a much better offensive player than Caruso.
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
14,794
Brown/PP

Wagner/WCJ/Fultz

Make it happen. Wagner already does so much to impact winning (his on/off his 1st 2 years has been +8.4 & +10.2), WCJ can be a big part of a 3-man big rotation & Fultz is expiring salary filler/a guy who can run the offense if necessary.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,588
I can't imagine Paul coming here for the minimum. Obviously if he would you sign him, he's not the best PG in the league anymore, but he can still play.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,239
I can't imagine Paul coming here for the minimum. Obviously if he would you sign him, he's not the best PG in the league anymore, but he can still play.
Yeah he has no connection to anyone in the organIzation that I can think of. Either he re-signs with Phoenix or he'd probably end up in LA who will need cheap filler if they commit to Reaves and Hachimura for an additional combined $40m AAV or so.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,154
Imaginationland
Yeah he has no connection to anyone in the organIzation that I can think of. Either he re-signs with Phoenix or he'd probably end up in LA who will need cheap filler if they commit to Reaves and Hachimura for an additional combined $40m AAV or so.
Blake Griffin? Although he's a FA looking more likely to retire than return.
 

bosockboy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
19,957
St. Louis, MO
Yeah he has no connection to anyone in the organIzation that I can think of. Either he re-signs with Phoenix or he'd probably end up in LA who will need cheap filler if they commit to Reaves and Hachimura for an additional combined $40m AAV or so.
Being the missing piece to a championship ready team has to have some allure.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,588
I tried figuring out a Paul trade, since he has some interesting flexibilites (counts as 15.8M, but can be adjusted to any number between that and 30.8M)... not seeing it.

I thought I had an interesting 3 way deal, but it required a Grant S&T... and that can't combine with Paul since his guarantee date is before RFA opens.
 

jasail

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,190
Boston
I tried figuring out a Paul trade, since he has some interesting flexibilites (counts as 15.8M, but can be adjusted to any number between that and 30.8M)... not seeing it.

I thought I had an interesting 3 way deal, but it required a Grant S&T... and that can't combine with Paul since his guarantee date is before RFA opens.
He was just waived.
 

jasail

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,190
Boston
Brown/PP

Wagner/WCJ/Fultz

Make it happen. Wagner already does so much to impact winning (his on/off his 1st 2 years has been +8.4 & +10.2), WCJ can be a big part of a 3-man big rotation & Fultz is expiring salary filler/a guy who can run the offense if necessary.
I'm probably VP of the WCJ to Boston club. That said, I can't see JB resigning in Orlando, so I can't see Orlando being willing to spend their assets in this manner. I like it for Boston though.
 

BigMike

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 26, 2000
23,250
I'm probably VP of the WCJ to Boston club. That said, I can't see JB resigning in Orlando, so I can't see Orlando being willing to spend their assets in this manner. I like it for Boston though.
Yeah it's a slam dunk for Boston. I don't like it for Orlando at all .
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
14,794
I'm probably VP of the WCJ to Boston club. That said, I can't see JB resigning in Orlando, so I can't see Orlando being willing to spend their assets in this manner. I like it for Boston though.
I have no idea what JB is looking for in a future home. I know no state income tax is definitely something that might be appealing. I guess you might have some who is the alpha questions with Banchero, but who knows? Maybe he finds the idea of being near Disney awesome from a social justice perspective.

Until he puts out a list of what he's looking for, though, it's all just rampant speculation.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,211
I have no idea why people think that Jaylen won't have interest in signing with Team X or Y when we really have no idea at all
I think we can reasonably assume that a player who's been to 5 ECF and 1 NBA Finals wants to play on a competitive team but none of us know his particular feelings about various teams or the cities they're located in. So, I agree that it's hard to really rule out any potential locations.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
12,215
I think we can reasonably assume that a player who's been to 5 ECF and 1 NBA Finals wants to play on a competitive team but none of us know his particular feelings about various teams or the cities they're located in. So, I agree that it's hard to really rule out any potential locations.
I suspect that most really good players think that any team they join will be a contender, by virtue of them being on it, no?
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,170
I suspect that most really good players think that any team they join will be a contender, by virtue of them being on it, no?
Except Brown knows that right now he gets to play alongside Tatum, which puts him much closer to a ring than playing alongside a team that would have say, Pat Connaughton as it’s next best player.

Part of the reason Hayward came over is the Celtics already had Horford.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,476
If I ever need to flash some kind of basketball-sicko credential it will be a reference to the fact that my brain keeps reading WCJ as WCS and getting excited that we’re finally making the long-awaited move for my old draft binkie.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,703
If I ever need to flash some kind of basketball-sicko credential it will be a reference to the fact that my brain keeps reading WCJ as WCS and getting excited that we’re finally making the long-awaited move for my old draft binkie.
HAH!!! I do the exact same thing.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,701
I tried figuring out a Paul trade, since he has some interesting flexibilites (counts as 15.8M, but can be adjusted to any number between that and 30.8M)... not seeing it.

I thought I had an interesting 3 way deal, but it required a Grant S&T... and that can't combine with Paul since his guarantee date is before RFA opens.
Who gives the Celtics a better chance to win a title next year, Paul or Smart? Any chance of building a trade around those 2?

I admittedly don't like Paul though a team like Boston could give him a lot of rest during the regular season in hopes he can get through the playoffs.



CP3-MS.png.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,505
I wasn’t expecting Dame to come here or anything, but damn it’s annoying to see the Celtics laughed at as an option lol.

View: https://twitter.com/ClutchPointsApp/status/1666932780327129088?s=20
Setting aside the fact that I am not a fan of this hypothetical swap, Haynes had just finished saying that Dame wouldn't go to a WC team. The overall point is that Dame doesn't seem to want to move for whatever reason. If he does, maybe @bsan34 is correct and its to another spot where he is the face of the franchise rather than a sidekick type.

The counter to all of that is the whole situation with KG. He talked about having a similar mindset while in Minnesota but he was obviously happy he came around to the idea of being traded. However I recall him being resistant to it at the time of the trade so point is minds can change.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,211
Setting aside the fact that I am not a fan of this hypothetical swap, Haynes had just finished saying that Dame wouldn't go to a WC team. The overall point is that Dame doesn't seem to want to move for whatever reason. If he does, maybe @bsan34 is correct and its to another spot where he is the face of the franchise rather than a sidekick type.

The counter to all of that is the whole situation with KG. He talked about having a similar mindset while in Minnesota but he was obviously happy he came around to the idea of being traded. However I recall him being resistant to it at the time of the trade so point is minds can change.
Yeah, there was definitely a whole “KG doesn’t want to come to Boston” dilemma for a while. The Ray Allen trade basically was needed to get him over the hump, if I recall correctly.

I have zero interest in trading 26 yo Jaylen for almost 33 yo Dame anyways.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,505
More Jared Weiss' mailbag stuff for non-subscribers (Athletic is worth the cost imo) on Cs potential trades/moves:



There seems to be widespread agreement on the national level that the Celtics will have to trade one of (Marcus) Smart, (Malcolm) Brogdon or (Derrick) White this offseason. Do you agree that is likely to happen, and if so, who do you think is the most tradable and who is the most vital from the Celtics’ perspective to keep? — Aaron M
.

National narratives tend to be overblown after a team loses and this one is probably just below the threshold of likely. First of all, these narratives tend to presume a situation can’t be fixed and you have to get rid of personnel rather than change an approach or get back on the same page. There’s a reason teams don’t usually make all the wild trades that hit the rumor mill throughout the year, as they recognize the value in patience and development. The public doesn’t see all of the minutiae that goes on every day, so the results tend to cloud the evaluation of the process.

Regardless, the presumption the Celtics absolutely have to get below the new super tax apron (aka the double apron) is incorrect. When you cross that threshold, you lose your taxpayer midlevel exception among other limitations, but the Celtics can live without those things this year. They don’t need to sign more players above the minimum since they currently have 11 rotation players with Danillo Gallinari returning and the ability to keep Grant Williams and Payton Pritchard. If they want to freshen up the roster, the trade route makes sense.

They already have a second-rounder and they don’t need to trade for more salary or use trade exceptions, so the super tax limitations affecting those things don’t matter. The concern is the looming penalty that your first-round pick seven years out gets frozen when you’re in the super tax, but that doesn’t kick in until the 2024-25 season. If they are shedding salary to avoid the repeater tax, then they likely don’t believe this team can win the title and would be better off doing a more significant rebuild around Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.

So being a super tax team doesn’t affect Boston that much if it’s keeping this roster together. Of course, the Celtics could trade for Damian Lillard and have Portland take on extra salary around Jaylen Brown, but we talked about why trading Brown for Lillard probably doesn’t make sense in our last mailbag. It’s notable his former teammate CJ McCollum said Thursday that if he were a betting man, this would be the last we’ve seen of Lillard in Portland.

But if Chris Paul ends up a free agent, that could change their thinking. The Celtics would love to have a savvy table setter who can guard multiple positions in short spurts. If they want to fully unlock Rob Williams’ ability and take pressure off the Jays to make all the reads, Paul, even at 38, is as good as it gets for a bench value. They also could give him a starting slot and keep his minutes down in the mid-20s so he can survive an entire season, which is a big reason Phoenix is working on a deal to move on, according to The Athletic’s Shams Charania.

Bringing in Paul on a cheap deal would make salary dumping a guard more palatable, particularly since he overlaps a lot of Brogdon’s offensive role. The Celtics got what they wanted from Brogdon this year, but the torn tendon in his arm took him out of the conference finals and he’ll be 31 next season while potentially coming off surgery. He has two years at $22.5 million per season left on his contract and hasn’t been fully healthy since he was a rookie.

If you can somehow nab Paul, Smart can remain your defensive floor general and White can continue to thrive in his wing role. White seems untouchable at this point with everything he’s done, while Smart has been the heart of the franchise and any uncertainty over his future is a matter of whether the team wants to try something new
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
14,794
If I ever need to flash some kind of basketball-sicko credential it will be a reference to the fact that my brain keeps reading WCJ as WCS and getting excited that we’re finally making the long-awaited move for my old draft binkie.
I actually wrote WCS before fixing to WCJ in my initial post.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,588
More Jared Weiss' mailbag stuff for non-subscribers (Athletic is worth the cost imo) on Cs potential trades/moves:
Pretty good, but he kind of missed a key thing that the smarter national writers were talking about.....
You don't need to get under this year, but you do next year, and Brogdon in particular (also Smart) has more value now than they will next year. Also a bunch of other teams will need to get under next year as well which could dilute the market further.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,505
Pretty good, but he kind of missed a key thing that the smarter national writers were talking about.....
You don't need to get under this year, but you do next year, and Brogdon in particular (also Smart) has more value now than they will next year. Also a bunch of other teams will need to get under next year as well which could dilute the market further.
Weiss kind of makes the point that the Cs are attempting to win a championship and not trades.


If the objective is to maximize the value of the player you are trading then sure you want to deal them with more control and before the new deal kicks in. But if you want to compete for a championship, you probably aren't worried about winning transactions.

Of course they could thread the needle and both improve while helping out their cap situation. But as we all know, those trades are extremely rare.

The point is that the hurdle for dealing any of these players feels high based on his opinion. Stevens, Wyc, Bain et al may have other designs.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,306
I agree with Weiss that it isn't clear the Celtics will care about the second apron - at least, in terms of acquiring guys. Whether the owners will write that size check I tend to be optimistic, but it's not certain.

I don't think you want to be above that for a bunch of years, but for a year or two I am not sure they care; at least, they are more likely to do an assessment like "can I get a guy as good as Brogdon from all the stuff I lose to get under second apron" and I suspect answer will be "probably not"
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,405
The Raptors hired their new coach, and it wasn’t Charles Lee, who the Celtics have discussed an assistant spot with.

Would be a great hire, he interviewed for the HC coach job here before the Ime hire. Really great reputation around the league, was the Bucks associate HC last season.

View: https://twitter.com/SteveBHoop/status/1667275295395569664?s=20
I think we still have to wait for the 6ers and Raps to fill that 1st assistant job. If Lee doesn’t get either of those jobs, I think it’s safe to guess that he will come to the Celtics
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,588
Well every team has a HC, have to think the assistant spots all shake out in the next week or two.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,505
This is on Jaylen from Jay King's prediction piece in today's Athletic:

The Celtics will not trade Jaylen Brown
Brown did not have a good series against the Heat. He recognized how poorly he played during the Game 7 loss to Miami. He needs to stem the turnover issues that have popped up consistently deep in the playoffs. He needs to avoid the tunnel vision that occasionally takes him captive. Given the restrictions of the new collective bargaining agreement and the way the last couple of seasons have ended, it’s fair to question whether the Celtics will ever be able to win a championship with Tatum and Brown as their two best players and taking up a massive amount of their team’s salary.

The Celtics still won’t deal Brown this summer. Even if they wanted to consider such a massive change to their core, now would not be the right time to move on the idea. Brown has just one year left on his existing contract. Though he is now eligible to sign a supermax extension with Boston, no other team that traded for him would be able to offer him the same contract extension. The extend-and-trade rules limit what a trade partner could offer Brown immediately; he would be crazy to accept even the biggest possible offer a team could give him under such circumstances. So, if the Celtics trade him, the receiving team would likely be acquiring Brown without any promise that he would stay beyond the final year of his contract. That’s usually not the best recipe for maximizing the return in a trade.

Plus, Brown is really good. He’s still just 26. The Celtics have accomplished plenty already with him as a franchise pillar. They haven’t won a title with him, but they have come close enough that taking a torch to the current nucleus would be a major risk.

3. The Celtics will sign Brown to a supermax extension
Brown signing a five-year, $295 million extension this summer seems the most likely outcome, especially after Brad Stevens’ recent comments about the wing’s future. Even if Brown wonders what life would be like on another team, players usually accept the supermax extension and figure out the rest later.

For the Celtics, a similar mentality could be warranted. They would have one year before Brown’s extension kicks in and two years before Tatum’s seemingly inevitable extension does the same; that’s enough time to give the current core another shot or two before settling on a more decisive path for the future. If Tatum and Brown take a step forward and win a ring, it would likely be obvious to keep them together for as long as possible. If the Celtics keep flopping in a similar fashion in the playoffs, they could be tempted to try a different formula instead, especially as the new CBA threatens to deplete the talent of their supporting cast.


Brown’s an All-Star who keeps himself in great shape and should be entering his prime years. As long as he stays healthy, he should have trade value throughout his next contract. If the Celtics eventually want to move on, they can do so while he still has years left on his deal and suitors won’t need to be so concerned about a flight risk. Boston would not be able to trade Brown for one year after he signs the extension agreement, but would be trying to win with him next season anyway. As disappointing as their Eastern Conference Finals loss was, the Celtics could be just a few small tweaks or a few minor improvements away from achieving a more desirable outcome. If they eventually decide they aren’t, well, they would still have time to deal with that one day
King also speculates that Boston will move on from Brogdon and may pursue a deal for another starting quality PF/big assuming they can make it fit cap-wise.