The Butler Did It

BigSoxFan

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That Wiggins deal has turned into a franchise killer for the T'wolves. He's one of those guys that I was completely wrong about.

In college he was such a hard working defender with such great physicals (length, speed, explosivenes, etc.) that I figured that even if his offensive game never developed properly that he'd still be really valuable as a defensive stopper on the wing.

Rocco, by contrast, had him pegged as the next Rudy Gay. He's like a crack whore's DeRozan, terrible defense with inefficient scoring. I guess that he's young enough that he could turn it around, but they really should have moved him for picks before having to commit to that extension.
Yup. Pretty much spot on. The whole “LeBron should have kept Wiggins instead of forcing a Love trade” argument died pretty quickly. Wiggins’ NBA career kind of reminds me of Terrence Morris’ college career - lots of early promise and then a serious plateau that I wasn’t expecting. Wiggins is basically the same player now that he was when he came into the league. Last year, he had a very noticeable decline in FTA and FT%. He’s improved his 3PT shooting a little bit but that’s about it. I was 100% wrong about him.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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WBCD: Thanks for that link. I think it's likely about money and Butler's insecurity (financial and emotional), too. But the scuttlebutt here was that the Wolves made him the best offer they could, without gutting the team, and also made it clear when he rejected it that they would renew talks later (when they could offer more). I don't think they promised to gut the team to offer him more sooner, because (1) they don't want a roster that basically has just 3 players on it, and (2) they thought Butler agreed with them that they need guys like Teague and Gibson to help him compete now.

If Butler really was irrevocably hurt/pissed that the Wolves didn't dump everyone (and dish out draft picks to help make that happen) just to give him more money sooner, then, well, he's a selfish loser, imo. Not saying at all that he'd be the only player to take that kind of position, but he's not getting much sympathy from the average T'Wolves fan!
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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WBCD: Thanks for that link. I think it's likely about money and Butler's insecurity (financial and emotional), too. But the scuttlebutt here was that the Wolves made him the best offer they could, without gutting the team, and also made it clear when he rejected it that they would renew talks later (when they could offer more). I don't think they promised to gut the team to offer him more sooner, because (1) they don't want a roster that basically has just 3 players on it, and (2) they thought Butler agreed with them that they need guys like Teague and Gibson to help him compete now.

If Butler really was irrevocably hurt/pissed that the Wolves didn't dump everyone (and dish out draft picks to help make that happen) just to give him more money sooner, then, well, he's a selfish loser, imo. Not saying at all that he'd be the only player to take that kind of position, but he's not getting much sympathy from the average T'Wolves fan!
I hear you but if I'm Butler, I'm saying, "Look, if MIN isn't going to try to clear out cap space to get me more than a max extension, are they really going to sign me to a max contract next year?"

And if the answer is no, then he asks himself what he's doing this season playing with Wiggins and Towns.

According to the Ringer article posted above, MIN played .627 ball with Butler (37-22) and had a point differential of a 60-win basketball team when he was on the court. MIN went 10-13 in the games he missed and had the point differential of a 29-win basketball team.

Butler may not get much sympathy but I hope none of you believe that management did very well here either.
 

AimingForYoko

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It's not the NFL... end of the first round is not that valuable. Houston would have to suck at least once to be worth it.
If those picks are in 2023 & 2025 though? I would take that chance that Houston will suck that badly by then. Also, Butler was a 30th pick. Again, I'd roll those dice. Plus you get tradeable assets. Minny is a shitshow, what do they have to lose?
 

Reverend

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If those picks are in 2023 & 2025 though? I would take that chance that Houston will suck that badly by then. Also, Butler was a 30th pick. Again, I'd roll those dice. Plus you get tradeable assets. Minny is a shitshow, what do they have to lose?
Seven years is a long time to bet on keeping your job, though, isn't it?
 

vicirus

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Seven years is a long time to bet on keeping your job, though, isn't it?
It would also depend on how they’re matching salary. I doubt Morey is offering them Gordon+filler+4 picks, but if he is that’s a no brained. Has to be Knight+filler when he’s eligible to be traded right (10/31)? I assume they’d meet half way with Chriss included with Knight which is at least something...
 

mcpickl

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If those picks are in 2023 & 2025 though? I would take that chance that Houston will suck that badly by then. Also, Butler was a 30th pick. Again, I'd roll those dice. Plus you get tradeable assets. Minny is a shitshow, what do they have to lose?
A top 15 player for a bag of magic beans I suppose.

Taking that offer is just writing up your future pink slip.
 

bosox79

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Kinda sounds like the Garnett/Pierce deal, but Ainge knew he'd be here awhile. One or two of those picks will end up being good.
 

moondog80

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Four first round picks in the high twenties will basically get you a free taco on November 1st.

I agree. However, it seems like Butler is a lock to bolt when the season ends, and Minnesota isn't going to win a title in the meantime. This is likely the best they can do, just hope either they hit on one of the low picks or Houston has a down cycle in a few years.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Toronto, Philly and the Lakers have to call on him. There is really no reason for the T-Wolves to make a deal right now. I suspect whomever gave Woj this information had a specific agenda in mind.
 

sezwho

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The advantages that GMs with job security have in the major sports leagues is still very seriously underrated by owners.
Totally agree, probably underrated by fans too. It’s why I think winning organizations start at the ownership level, and we have such strong owners for the Boston teams. Still not sure what to make of Bruins owners though.
 

axx

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Jul 16, 2005
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Toronto, Philly and the Lakers have to call on him. There is really no reason for the T-Wolves to make a deal right now. I suspect whomever gave Woj this information had a specific agenda in mind.
Now the Lakers, I would do it if they offered something similar to what Houston offered.
 

mcpickl

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For sure moondog. You have to take what you can get and there have been worse returns for disgruntled stars.
I'd hope that's not the goal for Minnesota, eh other teams have gotten even worse returns.

I think they could sell it if their team stinks. But they're a playoff team with Butler, if they dump him for just future picks they're in the lottery.

They've just finished their tanking cycle, kinda tough to go backwards right away after having just made the playoffs for the first time after 13 straight lottery trips.

I think they have to get a player that can help them now, even though that player won't help as much as Jimmy Butler.
 

benhogan

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I'd hope that's not the goal for Minnesota, eh other teams have gotten even worse returns.

I think they could sell it if their team stinks. But they're a playoff team with Butler, if they dump him for just future picks they're in the lottery.

They've just finished their tanking cycle, kinda tough to go backwards right away after having just made the playoffs for the first time after 13 straight lottery trips.

I think they have to get a player that can help them now, even though that player won't help as much as Jimmy Butler.
There are several serious suitors that make sense for Butler, so waiting a month while every team dreams will probably increase Minnesota's return. Plus they get to see if they really are a playoff contender, which I don't believe with a disgruntled, outspoken Butler.

But I wouldn't go longer than a month if I'm Glen Taylor and risk injury to an asset like Butler.

Committing $60M to Teague, Dieng and Wiggins is crippling for next season and beyond. Thibs was President of Operations for all those signings. I'd fire Thibs after a Butler deal.
 
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Sam Ray Not

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Boom.

For a one-year rental (plus maybe a nudge-nudge wink-wink promise of re-signing) this seems like a pretty good return for Minnesota. Certainly better than the Knight+Chriss garbage rumored from the Rockets.
 

AimingForYoko

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Kinda surprised Philly gave up the guys who could actually shoot but I guess Thibs didn't want Fultz and flotsam.

I predict this will end hilariously.
 

Ale Xander

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Kind of glad Covington left. Didn't want both him and Butler on the court at same time (to defends the Bae's) against us.

Still think Twolves should have went for quality 1 over quantity 2, but they had no leverage. Just wish he stayed in the West.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Is it? Just put Redick back in the starting lineup.
Butler is up and down from range. Redick is the only other regular who can shoot. Simmons is now playing off Butler instead of everyone playing off Simmons.

All I’m saying is I’m not sweating it. Kawhi would have been a lot scarier.
 

BigSoxFan

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Butler is up and down from range. Redick is the only other regular who can shoot. Simmons is now playing off Butler instead of everyone playing off Simmons.

All I’m saying is I’m not sweating it. Kawhi would have been a lot scarier.
I’m sweating it. Butler can create offense to help Embiid down the stretch. Covington and Saric cannot. Philly just got a lot tougher in close and late situations.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I’m sweating it. Butler can create offense to help Embiid down the stretch. Covington and Saric cannot. Philly just got a lot tougher in close and late situations.
That’s definitely true, don’t have to count on Redick getting open on screens down the stretch anymore.

Toronto feels like the only top East team we know anything real about yet. Going to be fun watching Philly and Boston figure it out.
 

CreedBratton

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Incredible steal by sixers. Wolves shoulda taken the heat package but those guys will help.

Celtics road to the finals is incredibly tough now. Gonna have to beat two of the Raptors, sixers, bucks and the Celtics won’t have the best player on the floor in any series unfortunately.
 

bosox79

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Butler is up and down from range. Redick is the only other regular who can shoot. Simmons is now playing off Butler instead of everyone playing off Simmons.

All I’m saying is I’m not sweating it. Kawhi would have been a lot scarier.
Outside of 15-16, Butler's been pretty consistent for awhile. This trade gives Philly the 3rd star they need and they didn't really move much of value. They are replacing 60+ minutes with 30 though, so I wonder who gets the bump in playing time. Shamet?
 
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Incredible steal by sixers. Wolves shoulda taken the heat package but those guys will help.

Celtics road to the finals is incredibly tough now. Gonna have to beat two of the Raptors, sixers, bucks and the Celtics won’t have the best player on the floor in any series unfortunately.
Agreed. This makes 3 teams in the East better than the Celtics.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Interesting to see how the personalities and 'alpha' stuff works with those three---could very much go either way.

Talent-wise it's a huge win for Philly---a two dimes for a quarter kind of deal and those are usually huge wins for the team getting the best guy.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I like that deal for MIN actually. Butler needed to go and Saric and Covington are legit starters in this league .
I do as well considering their lack of leverage as they add some nice complementary pieces along with defensive toughness in Covington. I don't really understand what Philly is doing by eliminating whatever spacing they had on the roster sans Redick.

Of note, this is a deal that must have just come together overnight as all players involved played in their teams games ending about 16 hours ago.
 

queenb

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So he's going to Minnesota East and teaming up with a pair of young players whose preordained but as-yet-unrealized greatness gets talked about non-stop and who the franchise values more than him. Lol. Simmons and KAT are both franchise cornerstones but not particularly vocal leaders; quiet, laid-back demeanors; interests and a life outside of basketball. Plus Embiid and Butler has the potential to be combustible. Please Philly - give Jimmy the max.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Agreed. This makes 3 teams in the East better than the Celtics.
If this is true it will be due to the Celtics continued offensive dysfunction and not due to the Sixers structuring their roster like it's 1997. Butler is obv the best player in the deal but this is going to be interesting to see how this actually works on the floor and not only on paper.
 

bosox79

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I do as well considering their lack of leverage as they add some nice complementary pieces along with defensive toughness in Covington. I don't really understand what Philly is doing by eliminating whatever spacing they had on the roster sans Redick.

Of note, this is a deal that must have just come together overnight as all players involved played in their teams games ending about 16 hours ago.
They have Landry Shamet too. He was 159/364, .437 from 3 in college and 163/201 .811 from the FT line. He's looking like a really good pick at 26.

I also forgot about Wilson Chandler. He's probably going to pick up a bunch of the extra minutes, but Shamet will get a little more time too.
 

ifmanis5

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Jimmy needs to make good in Philly to fix his team-wrecker rep. He can't keep bouncing around.
I have the Sixers ahead of the Celtics now until Hayward finally gets healthy and Tatum gets his shit together.