The Butler Did It

bosox79

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I mean Covington/Saric is a pretty craptastic return, so there's no harm in asking for better.
It is, it may also be the best offer they get. Saric is better than any other player I've seen mentioned outside of Kyle Lowry. I might have missed some names.

I'm also a bit higher on Saric than most people are. The only other name I've seen floated around that piques my interest is Chriss, and I'd take Saric over him all day.

edit: I'm not that high on Chriss, he's just young and athletic. If he improves his outside shot, he could be something. Justice WInslow and the other guys are what they are.
 

nighthob

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Saric looks like a bench depth player. Covington is a nice roleplayer so long as he has guys to play off of. The draft picks may not be worth much (assuming that they're even on the table). You don't start negotiations by asking for 30¢ on the dollar, because that's how you end up with 9¢.

There's nothing stopping Philly from making a serious counteroffer. But I suspect that they're waiting on the sideline like everyone else.
 
May 14, 2015
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edit: I'm not that high on Chriss, he's just young and athletic. If he improves his outside shot, he could be something. Justice WInslow and the other guys are what they are.
Can you go into more detail on this? Winslow and Chriss are about nine months apart in age. Why is Winslow less likely to improve his shooting? In the modern nba, I’d rather have Winslow, a plus defender who can potentially switch 1-4, than Chriss, a minus defender everywhere (and one who doesn’t appear to give a shit about being a good nba player).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Is it? That plus a draft pick or two is what I would think they would be looking for.
This goes back to my point of the dysfunction of the Wolves front office at this present time. Thibs don't care bout no draft picks since he's coaching/trading for this season only. When you're talking about packages that HE would move Butler for I can't imagine two role players would do it.
 

bosox79

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Can you go into more detail on this? Winslow and Chriss are about nine months apart in age. Why is Winslow less likely to improve his shooting? In the modern nba, I’d rather have Winslow, a plus defender who can potentially switch 1-4, than Chriss, a minus defender everywhere (and one who doesn’t appear to give a shit about being a good nba player).
How is 16 months apart in age about 9 months?
 

nighthob

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Can you go into more detail on this? Winslow and Chriss are about nine months apart in age. Why is Winslow less likely to improve his shooting? In the modern nba, I’d rather have Winslow, a plus defender who can potentially switch 1-4, than Chriss, a minus defender everywhere (and one who doesn’t appear to give a shit about being a good nba player).
Winslow has a much higher floor, and he's sort of a taller/longer Marcus Smart type (although I think Smart has a broader game). But much like with Marcus, what you see is what you get. Winslow has never been much of a shooter. Ever.

Chriss has gone from having high bust potential to likely being just a bust (although finally escaping the Phoenix Nursery School organization and landing on a stable vet team might help). But he has shown shooting ability in the past and he does have the combination of length and athleticism necessary to be a good defender. So he has a much higher ceiling than Winslow, though I will stipulate that he's unlikely to ever reach it.
 

benhogan

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I know its good sport to take shots at the 76ers around here (I'm as guilty as the next guy).
But Covington is an RPM darling, a prototypical 3 and D player and not terribly expensive, signed for 4 yrs.

Saric is very cheap, signed for 2yrs then RFA. Dario can shoot the 3, play the 5 in a modern-day small ball line-up. He plays hard/aggressive and impressed me all last season/playoffs.

Nighthob, why so critical of Covington and Saric?

These two are very switchable defensively. If the Wolves could land them + a first rounder at this stage that wouldn't be terrible.
 

bosox79

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It might be less bad for the Wolves because they are arguably a playoff team. I can't imagine them being better without Butler though. It's sorta kinda like the Kyrie deal. Trading a mix of established players and a pick to a team that isn't tanking.
 

benhogan

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It might be less bad for the Wolves because they are arguably a playoff team. I can't imagine them being better without Butler though. It's sorta kinda like the Kyrie deal. Trading a mix of established players and a pick to a team that isn't tanking.
An unmotivated Butler on a 1yr deal, that's not showing up and hates some of his teammates isn't worth a lot and won't help the Wolves make the playoffs

I'd much rather have Saric+Covington+future 1st rounder (that could be dealt for talent).
 
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moondog80

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NBA trades for superstars are almost always cents on the dollar. Cousins, Iverson, Garnett, Barkley...none of them got anything more than Saric+Covington+future 1st rounder.(s) That actually kind of seems like a deal that helps both today and tomorrow for Minnesota.
 

benhogan

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Heard yesterday, from someone close to Dion Waiters, that he may be on the move to the Wolves as part of a Butler deal.

Don't blame the Heat, I'd rather move Dion (3yrs ~ $40MM) then JRich (4yrs ~ 40MM).
 

bsj

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moondog80

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Prob just means they are confident their deal.is the best on the table and they are threatening to walk (I'd assume before their opener)
You are probably right. Though really, if Minnesota turns it down and then comes back in 2 weeks and says they will do it, Miami would say no at that point?
 

the moops

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Dion Waiters is terrible. Of course the Heat are pushing for him to be included. He has only played 76 games over the past two years, is likely to miss a decent chunk of time due to his ankle surgery, and he has 3 years at 12 million per left on his deal.
 

bsj

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Dion Waiters is terrible. Of course the Heat are pushing for him to be included. He has only played 76 games over the past two years, is likely to miss a decent chunk of time due to his ankle surgery, and he has 3 years at 12 million per left on his deal.
I actually think waiters is a good player when healthy, and if he was able to deliver his 2016-2017 averages over the course of the season, he would be a value at 12. But agreed, his health has been a concern, and even when healthy looked like he took a step back last season.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Apparently the Wolves and Heat (and in some permutations, a third team) we’re close to a trade this weekend, but it fell apart for now, per Woj. They went as far as trading medical.

The Minnesota Timberwolves and Miami Heat advanced to the brink of a blockbuster trade for All-Star forward Jimmy Butler over the weekend -- only for the deal to fracture before completion, league sources told ESPN.

Minnesota had shared Butler's medical information with Miami late in the week, sources said, a typical last step before finalizing a trade.

Minnesota owner Glen Taylor and Miami owner Micky Arison had become involved in the talks and there was hope that a trade call with the league office could finalize a deal soon, until Minnesota moved to amend the framework of the trade and talks collapsed Saturday, league sources said.

Minnesota and Miami had been discussing deals that included a third team to take on salary, as well as doing a direct trade between the Timberwolves and Heat, league sources said. Miami had softened on including guard Josh Richardson in versions of a possible deal for Butler, only to recoil once Minnesota pushed late for a sweeter return on the four-time All-Star forward, league sources said.
Apparently could get revived but would take a “resetting process,” whatever that means.

Edit: forgot the link: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24920173/timberwolves-trade-jimmy-butler-heat-falls-apart
 
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DrewDawg

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I mean, are we all hung over from the Sox win? How has this not been posted?

Butler was vociferous and intense throughout scrimmage sessions, targeting president of basketball operations and coach Tom Thibodeau, general manager Scott Layden and teammates, including Karl-Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins, league sources said.

As the GM watched on the sidelines during a scrimmage, sources said that Butler yelled to Layden: "You f---ing need me, Scott. You can't win without me."
Many of the Minnesota players left practice energized by Butler's performance, mesmerized with him taking several end-of-the-bench players and running the table in scrimmage games against the regulars, league sources said. After punctuating the final victory at the end of practice, Butler marched out of the gym as though to emphasize he had proven his point, sources said. Coaches and players were largely speechless, league sources said.
 

PedroKsBambino

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My belief in Butler as a true 'alpha' went up after that article.

Of course, so did my concern level that he's a cancer.

He is a guy the Celts would have taken a chance on three years ago---similar to Isaiah at the time they got him. But now, it's hard to see them taking the shot given what it would cost and who it would displace. But I am fascinated where he goes and hope it is not Philly.
 

moondog80

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I'm not comparing the two, talent-wise. But I wonder if this is how Jordan would have been in a situation without Phil and Scottie. He's a leader if he's on a championship team, but an asshole on a mediocre team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm pretty sure Thibs got an erection from Butler's display of dominance in that scrimmage.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Star player is tired of shitty culture, so takes all the scrubs and beats starters, with some trash talk. And he’s a dick? That’s the guy I want on my team.
Here here!! Thibs cancelled practice and Butler called a players-only meeting to tell his teammates that he's here to compete with them. This is the very definition of leadership for a group that is otherwise rudderless.
 

Kliq

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I don't know, a star player no-showing a bunch of practices and then randomly showing up, acting like a crazy person in some sort of bizarre publicity stunt to get himself traded doesn't really scream leadership material to me.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't know, a star player no-showing a bunch of practices and then randomly showing up, acting like a crazy person in some sort of bizarre publicity stunt to get himself traded doesn't really scream leadership material to me.
There were no fines assessed to Butler leading me to believe his absence was excused either due to the wrist injury or more likely, Thibs told him to stay away with a deal to Miami so close. I don't believe for one second that Butler simply blew off the team during this time.
 

Kliq

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There were no fines assessed to Butler leading me to believe his absence was excused either due to the wrist injury or more likely, Thibs told him to stay away with a deal to Miami so close. I don't believe for one second that Butler simply blew off the team during this time.
Well if you believe that; it certainly supports your argument.
 

DrewDawg

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Leadership would be relaying your desire to be traded to the FO, then showing up and practicing and telling your team you're there to battle with them.

Leadership is not demanding a trade, showing up late, screaming at your coach (even if that coach is Thibs), calling out your teammates, then calling a meeting saying you're in charge.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Leadership would be relaying your desire to be traded to the FO, then showing up and practicing and telling your team you're there to battle with them.

Leadership is not demanding a trade, showing up late, screaming at your coach (even if that coach is Thibs), calling out your teammates, then calling a meeting saying you're in charge.
The bolded is precisely what Butler DID do.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Well if you believe that; it certainly supports your argument.
Latest scuttlebutt this morning was that a Butler to Miami deal was done with teams going so far as to exchange medicals prior to Thibs calling Riley back and asking for another pick. Allegedly Riles called Thibs a mutha-f'er and slammed down the phone.
 

Big John

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I have no idea why Butler is acting this way. His antics won't increase his trade value and in fact make it more likely that he stays in Minnesota.

And if he stays, how long will it be before Towns and Wiggins start demanding trades? Is that his objective? Or is he trying to get Thibs fired? That may happen anyway.
 

Caspir

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I have no idea why Butler is acting this way. His antics won't increase his trade value and in fact make it more likely that he stays in Minnesota.

And if he stays, how long will it be before Towns and Wiggins start demanding trades? Is that his objective? Or is he trying to get Thibs fired? That may happen anyway.
I don't think anyone is scared that Andrew Wiggins bum ass will demand a trade. He'd already be gone if anyone wanted him. KAT just signed a max extension and isn't going anywhere. You have no idea why a hyper competitive alpha is acting like.... a hyper competitive alpha on a team that has been accused of lacking a true leader?
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Butler's clearly frustrated and angry. What's less clear is why. The Wolves offered him a max extension which, like Kyrie, he turned down because he can get more if he waits. But then Towns signed his super max deal for substantially more money. Did that upset Butler? Maybe, but that's not the team's fault. Butler was obviously frustrated at times with the team's play last season, especially on defense. Is he angry or disenchanted with certain teammates (like Wiggins)? With Thibs as a coach? Does he think he's being misused on the court? The Wolves are anything but creative on offense, and they basically let Butler do what he wants, especially in crunch time (to KAT's detriment, imo). He's upset with Scott Layden - why? Because he hasn't yet been traded? But it was reportedly Thibs who has sabotaged those efforts. And his initial list of teams he wanted to be traded to? Not exactly the top teams in the league. So is that just his desire to be a big fish in a bigger pond, winning be damned?

From my vantage point, he's acting like a prima donna, which certainly doesn't help his current team. But if I had to choose between the two, I'd do everything I could to keep Butler and continue to build around him and Towns, and either demote Thibs (bring in a real GM) or let him go. I think Thibs is more to blame for the overall condition/culture of the Wolves than Butler, and Butler's a far better player than Thibs is a coach/GM.
 

Tony C

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Leadership would be relaying your desire to be traded to the FO, then showing up and practicing and telling your team you're there to battle with them.

Leadership is not demanding a trade, showing up late, screaming at your coach (even if that coach is Thibs), calling out your teammates, then calling a meeting saying you're in charge.
Add to that...immediately going on ESPN and bragging about it. Because he competes...his teammates (implicitly) don't.

With the caveat that none of us were there so can't speak categorically, but sure does seems like the type of "I AM A LEADER" King Kong chest banging that does very little to help a team.
 

JCizzle

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I don't think anyone is scared that Andrew Wiggins bum ass will demand a trade. He'd already be gone if anyone wanted him. KAT just signed a max extension and isn't going anywhere. You have no idea why a hyper competitive alpha is acting like.... a hyper competitive alpha on a team that has been accused of lacking a true leader?
If he's a good leader, then the team has enough talent that they should be competitive in the West. Lets see if he can actually lead them there rather than just practice hard for an hour.
 

jimv

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I'm not comparing the two, talent-wise. But I wonder if this is how Jordan would have been in a situation without Phil and Scottie. He's a leader if he's on a championship team, but an asshole on a mediocre team.
Comparisons are tough because MJ existed pre-social media, but let's not forget it was his fourth year before the Bulls even made the conference semis. I'm sure he was an asshole behind closed doors but he knew to keep it under wraps - it might have hurt shoe sales
 

Kliq

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There is also a debate about whether Jordan's method of leadership was actually effective. You can also argue that Jordan's leadership was effective because he was as talented as he was, as opposed to Butler, who while an All-Star, is arguably not even the most talented player on his own team.

It should also be noted that this Butler explosion was likely done imo, as a publicity stunt to somehow assist him in being traded, so I don't think he really cares about leadership that much at all.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Butler's clearly frustrated and angry. What's less clear is why. The Wolves offered him a max extension which, like Kyrie, he turned down because he can get more if he waits. But then Towns signed his super max deal for substantially more money. Did that upset Butler? Maybe, but that's not the team's fault. Butler was obviously frustrated at times with the team's play last season, especially on defense. Is he angry or disenchanted with certain teammates (like Wiggins)? With Thibs as a coach? Does he think he's being misused on the court? The Wolves are anything but creative on offense, and they basically let Butler do what he wants, especially in crunch time (to KAT's detriment, imo). He's upset with Scott Layden - why? Because he hasn't yet been traded? But it was reportedly Thibs who has sabotaged those efforts. And his initial list of teams he wanted to be traded to? Not exactly the top teams in the league. So is that just his desire to be a big fish in a bigger pond, winning be damned?

From my vantage point, he's acting like a prima donna, which certainly doesn't help his current team. But if I had to choose between the two, I'd do everything I could to keep Butler and continue to build around him and Towns, and either demote Thibs (bring in a real GM) or let him go. I think Thibs is more to blame for the overall condition/culture of the Wolves than Butler, and Butler's a far better player than Thibs is a coach/GM.
This timeline might help you with your question.

It's no secret Butler wants to be paid a max contract. While the 4/$110M was the highest extension that the Wolves could offer, it wasn't the highest contract the Wolves could offer. According to a couple of articles I read - the best being this one: https://zonecoverage.com/2018/timberwolves/the-two-paths-of-jimmy-butlers-next-maximum-contract/ - if the Wolves had cleared cap space, they could have offered 4/$145M. Of course, as the article points, out, to do that, the Wolves would have had to make some fundamental roster moves. When the Wolves didn't do that, it was clear they weren't going to give him the max available now.

So Butler meets with Thibs on (or about) September 19 and Butler likely points out, "Well if you're not willing to clear space to give me max money now, there's no way the team is going to give me max money next year, right"? If the Wolves do give Butler max money, from 2019-20 to 2022-23, Butler, Towns, and Wiggins will be making (approximately) 85.3% / 87.6% / 89.8% / 91.9% of the projected salary cap.

So when Butler looks at the salary cap, the amount of $ Wiggins and Towns are making, the amount of luxury tax that Taylor would have to pay to have any kind of contending team at all, he (probably correctly) decides that MIN is not the place for him.

And now MIN is screwing him over because Thibs doesn't care if he plays out his contract but Glen Taylor doesn't want to lose him for nothing.

So finally, Butler comes into camp, kicks everyone's ass, and basically says, "Go ahead and see what happens when Wiggins and Towns are the two best players on your team."

The stuff with Towns and Wiggins makes great copy but I think when people dig into it, they are finding out that it's mostly about money. And the ancillary parts of money, like respect and what-not. Problem for Butler is that he doesn't have much leverage at this point. Methinks that what happened on Wednesday was an attempt to create leverage to make MIN do something.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It should also be noted that this Butler explosion was likely done imo, as a publicity stunt to somehow assist him in being traded, so I don't think he really cares about leadership that much at all.
I'm not sure I would have used the same words as you, but I agree with your opinion.

This Ringer article points out that Butler does not have much leverage here. According to CBA, if he misses more than 30 days, he can forfeit a season, meaning that he would not be able to opt-out next season for his massive payday. Yes, the Spurs could have tried to do this to Kawhi but did not - but I doubt Taylor or Thibs or Layden would be nearly as "understanding."

At this point, if Thibs is really sabotaging the trade efforts, Butler basically has two options: play and show people how good he is or come up with a season-long nagging injury. I'm sure when all things are taken into account, Butler really wishes that MIN would just go ahead and trade him.

This has been super strange all around.
 

nighthob

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That Wiggins deal has turned into a franchise killer for the T'wolves. He's one of those guys that I was completely wrong about.

In college he was such a hard working defender with such great physicals (length, speed, explosivenes, etc.) that I figured that even if his offensive game never developed properly that he'd still be really valuable as a defensive stopper on the wing.

Rocco, by contrast, had him pegged as the next Rudy Gay. He's like a crack whore's DeRozan, terrible defense with inefficient scoring. I guess that he's young enough that he could turn it around, but they really should have moved him for picks before having to commit to that extension.