The Butler Did It

Minneapolis Millers

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I... He apparently wore out his welcome in Chicago and it's pretty obvious that Minnesota's young stars didn't want to play with him.
Butler tends to be a ball stopper, especially late in games, which most players wouldn't appreciate. It was maddening watching them devolve into hero ball in close games, with Butler playing the purported hero, and KAT getting repeatedly ignored.
 

nighthob

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If that were offered, I would expect the Wolves to jump at it. The Knicks could offer Hardaway and their 2019 #1 on a similar rationale.
The question is whether or not Butler will lure anyone to NYC. He apparently wore out his welcome in Chicago and it's pretty obvious that Minnesota's young stars didn't want to play with him.
The point remains that if you’re the Heat there aren’t many ways forward. They’ve dealt away their picks, they’re not loaded with young developing players, and they don’t have any cap space coming up. So, yes, they’re going to be aggressive in the Butler chase because blowing it up and starting over isn’t really an option for them.

And, really, if you’re the T’wolves and want to drive up the bidding, there are better teams to cite than the Heat (like the Lakers for one). So the story is almost certainly true.
 

mcpickl

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I doubt if anyone is taking Dieng's deal (which doesn't end until 2021), especially the Heat, who will be paying a ton of luxury tax this year for a team with no chance of winning, even with Butler.

I can construct credible packages for a dozen teams, including many from wannabe playoff teams in the EC, where I assume the Wolves will want to send Butler.

Milwaukee: Snell, Henson, Teletovic. Pick any two
Philadelphis: Covington and Bayless
Toronto: straight up for Ibaka. Or Danny Green and C.J. Miles
Washington: Austin Rivers and Markieff Morris
Brooklyn: DeMarre Carroll and Caris LeVert
Indiana: Evans and Bogdanovic
Cleveland: Jordan Clarkson, Kyle Korver

Any of these deals could be sweetened with picks, if necessary.
You can construct these packages, but it's all speculation.

Right?
 

nighthob

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lakers have absolutely no salary to trade until well into the season though
Right, but if Minnesota were responsible for the rumor, why choose a team with very little talent to offer to drive up the price? Why wouldn’t you say “Brooklyn is targeting Butler aggressively” rather than Miami?
 

mcpickl

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That was my point.
Yeah, I know.

My point was speculate is what we do on these boards. Otherwise, why are we here? It's like if someone offers an opinion, and you respond that's just your opinion! Yeah, no kidding.

SPECULATION ALERT If I were San Antonio I'd offer Derozan for him. Minny would have to put a salary like Tyus Jones in to match up.
 

Big John

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Sure, it's what we do, and some of the proposals here make more basketball and financial sense than the rumors I've been seeing on the web. But until a reputable source (e.g. Woj) chimes in, it's all just clickbait..
 

InstaFace

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been nice posting with you, Big John, but I guess we're just not generating content that's up to your standards. Fair winds and following seas.
 

nighthob

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Sure, it's what we do, and some of the proposals here make more basketball and financial sense than the rumors I've been seeing on the web. But until a reputable source (e.g. Woj) chimes in, it's all just clickbait..
It was literally Woj that tweeted the rumor you dismissed.
 

Big John

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It was literally Woj that tweeted the rumor you dismissed.
What I saw from Woj is that Glen Taylor and Dan Gilbert would be meeting privately at the NBA Board of Governors meeting, presumably to discuss Butler. If Woj has reported any specific trade proposals, I missed them.
 

nighthob

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He didn't report specific trade proposals, he literally tweeted that Miami was pursuing Butler aggressively which you dismissed as Minnesota attempting to drive up the price. Which is absurd as Miami literally can't offer more than pennies on the dollar for Butler as they can't supply the T'wolves with anything but bench depth and cap relief.
 

Big John

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I understand your point about the Heat: they would be a lousy choice if someone wanted to drive up the price.

However, I could see Riley trying to send Whiteside to a third team, which in turn would send more suitable assets to the Wolves.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He didn't report specific trade proposals, he literally tweeted that Miami was pursuing Butler aggressively which you dismissed as Minnesota attempting to drive up the price. Which is absurd as Miami literally can't offer more than pennies on the dollar for Butler as they can't supply the T'wolves with anything but bench depth and cap relief.
The can offer a home for Dieng's contract with Tyler Johnson's expiring though. This adds a ton of value to a deal. Miami is the favorite to land him from my seat.
 

nighthob

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The can offer a home for Dieng's contract with Tyler Johnson's expiring though. This adds a ton of value to a deal. Miami is the favorite to land him from my seat.
Right, they can unload Butler on Miami for cap relief. I was disputing BJ's claim that it was a fake rumor designed to drive up the price. If you were trying to incite a bidding war, why would you choose a team that can only offer you cap relief? You would choose someone like Brooklyn for your fake rumour. Because Tyler Johnson, Jason Richardson, and Justise Winslow are all pretty mediocre players, and that's about the pick of the rotten litter.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
Goodness, Thibs was still trying to convince him yesterday, to no avail...

Worst case scenario for us, (besides Toronto or Washington) is if Vlade somehow gets Thibs to take a Harry Giles, Skal, and Z-Bo or Iman to match salaries and salary match to get Jimmy.

The Kings with Jimmy would still stink this year, but it would bump them a good amount above some other teams like the Hawks.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Goodness, Thibs was still trying to convince him yesterday, to no avail...

Worst case scenario for us, (besides Toronto or Washington) is if Vlade somehow gets Thibs to take a Harry Giles, Skal, and Z-Bo or Iman to match salaries and salary match to get Jimmy.

The Kings with Jimmy would still stink this year, but it would bump them a good amount above some other teams like the Hawks.
Sacramento isn't looking to acquire Butler. They are looking to utilize their cap space and/or any of their 3 expiring contracts (Zach, Shumpert and Koufos) to absorb a bad contract as a 3rd team to help facilitate a deal while receiving draft equity and/or young talent. The Kings being involved hurts Miami a ton as the Wolves now have another out to dump Dieng's contract without Riley holding them hostage.
 

nighthob

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Sacramento isn't looking to acquire Butler. They are looking to utilize their cap space and/or any of their 3 expiring contracts (Zach, Shumpert and Koufos) to absorb a bad contract as a 3rd team to help facilitate a deal while receiving draft equity and/or young talent. The Kings being involved hurts Miami a ton as the Wolves now have another out to dump Dieng's contract without Riley holding them hostage.
I agree with this, if the Kings are willing to pony up expiring deals to help someone else facilitate a trade the Heat are sunk, because salary relief is about all they have to offer.

I'd like to see BRK really go for this. They can offer up something like Hollis-Jefferson, Russell, and Carroll for Butler and filler
I don't think that Minnesota will have much interest in Russell, and Brooklyn would probably prefer to trade Crabbe even if the cost is a top five protected #1. Because that would put them in a position to sign another max deal with plenty left over for help (and within spitting distance of two max deals).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Butler's camp, in conjunction with Pat Riley I'm sure, announce for first time publicly that Miami is Butler's preferred destination.

Tennis match here. Riley presses hard, word leaked that Kings want be involved as 3rd team to take on Dieng's contract, Riles/Butler with the forehand smash of a statement that could cool others interest if Butler is viewed as a rental. He has to be a Heat by next week I'd imagine. All sides motivated to move fast on this.
 

bosox79

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So much for the list of 3 teams. If you are a Celtics fan, you can't mind him going to Miami too much.
 

HomeRunBaker

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So much for the list of 3 teams. If you are a Celtics fan, you can't mind him going to Miami too much.
The Miami Heat cancelled their team practice tonight. Sounds like a large multi-player and maybe multi-team deal could be announced tonight or tomorrow.
 

benhogan

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While we wait for Friday, does anyone want to take a stab at what Miami will send to the Wolves for Jimmy?

I'll take a shot:
Miami: Winslow, Whiteside, JRichardson
Minn: Butler, Dieng

Why does Minny do it? Thiebs get 3 defense first players. Unloads Dieng's "bad" 3yr contract for 2yrs of Whiteside. Not many choices.

Why does Miami do it? Miami gets a star to team up with Goran, unloads Hassan, opens up a starting spot for Bam.
 

moondog80

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So do we finally stop treating that Miami pick that Philly has like it's the 2016-18 Brooklyn picks rolled into one?
 

HomeRunBaker

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If you’re a coach who wants to get fired, making your starters play 36, 36, 35, 33 and 33 minutes per game is probably a good start.
I don't understand why playing your starters heavy minutes would get one fired but Thibs is the President of Basketball Operations not only the coach where he must answer to anyone other than the owner. He's a stubborn man for sure so I wouldn't put it past him to not be on the same working page as Taylor today.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Apparently the Wolves are setting the price high, as they should. If the market is such that the Nets won't trade Caris Lavert and the Heat won't trade Bam Adebayo, trading him for Justise Winslow and a second round pick would essentially be the same as granting him free agency.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24811508/timberwolves-asking-price-holding-jimmy-butler-trade
There’s setting the price high, and then there’s getting high, and it sounds like the Wolves are squarely in the latter territory:

The Minnesota Timberwolvesreportedly sought Ben Simmons in a potential Jimmy Butler trade with the Philadelphia 76ers.

Appearing on The Bill Simmons Podcast on Thursday, The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor explained just how high the Timberwolves' asking price is for their disgruntled shooting guard: "One of the things that I've heard from a handful of sources is that—with the Sixers for example—the initial offer that they made, the counter-offer was like, 'We need Ben Simmons in a deal.'"
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2798017-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-twolves-asked-for-ben-simmons-from-76ers
 

LondonSox

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I'm surprised that we haven't heard more from the Sixers in the Butler sweepstakes.
I guess we can see why now.
Simmons for one year of butler is... Something.

I have always thought the heat will do it. They have a shot at keeping him and their team is locked into a capped and not good team. Even if he leaves they might not be worse for it!
It likely hurts the 2021 pick of course and that is annoying but it's not like there is no risk he leaves after a year and they are no better
 

moondog80

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Asking for Simmons is silly. So is taking Caris Lavert and Josh Richardson off the table. At some point they will land in the middle with someone, presumably.

I do like the idea of Lowry for Butler.
 

Swedgin

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Asking for Simmons is silly. So is taking Caris Lavert and Josh Richardson off the table. At some point they will land in the middle with someone, presumably.

I do like the idea of Lowry for Butler.
Who reported that Lavert and/or Richardson were off the table?

Negotiating is part of my job, if someone in my line of work did the equivalent of asking for Simmons I would conclude they were not serious about getting a deal done and not waste my time. If they said were not willing to part with Richardson, but we can talk about Bam, Winslow etc. along with the taking on Deing, that's a basis to continue discussions even if Richardson is a deal breaker for me, because we are at least in the realm of possibility. If Thibs is really demanding Simmons level packages and I was his representative I would be starting to get concerned about the definition of "for cause" in his contract.
 

moondog80

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I don’t know how to paste a link on my phone, but if you google Caris Lavert and click the news section, reports that he won’t be used as a trade chip are among the top results. I can’t find a similar link for Richardson, I may have just seen it somewhere as speculation.

The Simmons ask is sillier, but telling the Wolves that Lavert is off limits is petty close to saying “we’re not going to give you anything of real value” (assuming that they are done dealing unprotected first round picks).

Most likely, everyone involved is in the silly stage of negotiation, and things will normalize soon, unless 6 different teams all think they are locks to sign him as a free agent.
 

Devizier

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Who knows what could even interest Minnesota but this would be fun.

Guess it would have to be something like Gordon/Chriss/fodder?
Philly could easily do better without touching Simmons or Fultz. Plus they're in the EC.

Miami seems to have the inside edge but Philly would make the most sense.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If I'm Thibs and aren't thrilled with anyone on the Sixers roster outside of Embiid and Simmons then receive a call from Philly asking what it would take...….I'm going to say Embiid or Simmons. Why would I even inquire about the other pieces I have no interest in acquiring?

This is how negotiations work. You know that there isn't a match with any package not including them so show your interest and maybe there is a one in a million shot that they counter with moving Simmons for a package that includes Wiggins. This is common and why 99.9% of trade discussions never get anywhere...….until one does.
 

bosox79

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If I'm Thibs and aren't thrilled with anyone on the Sixers roster outside of Embiid and Simmons then receive a call from Philly asking what it would take...….I'm going to say Embiid or Simmons. Why would I even inquire about the other pieces I have no interest in acquiring?

This is how negotiations work. You know that there isn't a match with any package not including them so show your interest and maybe there is a one in a million shot that they counter with moving Simmons for a package that includes Wiggins. This is common and why 99.9% of trade discussions never get anywhere...….until one does.
Can't rip someone off if you don't try. Bad trades are made all the time.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Who knows what could even interest Minnesota but this would be fun.

Guess it would have to be something like Gordon/Chriss/fodder?
We have to decide who the teams are negotiating with. I'd guess that if it's Thibs/Layden they are looking for an established starter and another rotation player...….if they are going through Taylor adding a draft pick while taking on Dieng's contract would carry much greater weight. Welcome to the Dysfunctionalwolves.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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We have to decide who the teams are negotiating with. I'd guess that if it's Thibs/Layden they are looking for an established starter and another rotation player...….if they are going through Taylor adding a draft pick while taking on Dieng's contract would carry much greater weight. Welcome to the Dysfunctionalwolves.
I'm hoping two wildly different "agreed in principle" trades are announced at the same time.