The Bullpen Thread

Soxfan in Fla · Aug 18, 2016

I've seen people say they don't want to risk losing games seeing if Paps is cooked. We are already losing games with this group. Doesn't hurt to see if you have something positive there because too often in the last month the the pen has been a big negative.

JohntheBaptist · Aug 18, 2016

Soxfan in Fla said:
I've seen people say they don't want to risk losing games seeing if Paps is cooked. We are already losing games with this group. Doesn't hurt to see if you have something positive there because too often in the last month the the pen has been a big negative.

Yeah that was me, and I now completely agree. They can't get worse and maybe Paps has a hot few weeks.

bankshot1 · Aug 18, 2016

Papelbon can be a 7/8th inning guy, used in conjunction with Barnes and Ziegler and maybe Koji. There is no downside to finding out if he can still be useful. If he sucks or is a clubhouse problem, he's gone. But find out.

This BP as currently constructed will fail.

moonshotmanny · Aug 18, 2016

I am frustrated we lost Smith for the year and Koji is injured. I think we would have won a few more games with even one of them available. Even though Koji has been inconsistent himself this year, I still trust him.

Barnes I think has really come along and seems to be good for 2 innings if we need it. I would trust RRjr for only one. Abad I don't trust at all based on what we have seen so far. Miss Tommy Layne. Taz appears to be cooked, sadly. I haven't seen enough of Kelly to really judge.

Clay looked really good starting today. If he has turned the corner would like to see him start, but depends on Pom. How good would he be in the pen instead of Clay?

TheYellowDart5 · Aug 18, 2016

For what it's worth with Papelbon, he was mostly fine before going on the DL with an intercostal strain in early July: 24.2 IP, 9 ER, 2 HR, 8 BB, 19 K. Those aren't sterling numbers, but they're more than adequate for a seventh- or eighth-inning reliever, especially in this horror show of a bullpen. And while he wasn't good post-injury, seven of the eight runs he's allowed in that span came over three outings, and he's still striking people out.

That said, Papelbon's velocity is down; his swing rates are down; his swinging-strike rate is down; he's throwing fewer strikes; and he's giving up the same amount of contact. That doesn't exactly inspire warm fuzzies about his ability to survive as a high-leverage reliever, especially in a division as brutal as the AL East.

I would wager that, at the rate this bullpen is going, the FO will give Papelbon a chance anyway, because he was good as recently as last year and he has a history here. But it's hard to imagine he really turns anything around. The problem is that John Farrell has one reliever he can trust in Kimbrel and then a bunch of guys who are either burned out or horribly inconsistent. It doesn't help that he doesn't seem to know how to deploy who he has (his reasoning today that he didn't want to use Ziegler in the eighth because of his career numbers against the top of the Tigers' order is so damn frustrating and bad).

DennyDoyle'sBoil · Aug 18, 2016

ifmanis5 said:
Current Roster
Barnes - I trust him in small doses | 1.29 WHIP
Ross - Same | 1.16 WHIP
Abad - Should not be on the team | 2.50 WHIP
Tazawa - Appears to be done | 1.30 WHIP
Ziegler - Very inconsistent, on a bad streak | 1.36 WHIP
Kimbrel - I trust him in save situations only | 1.10 WHIP

I tend to agree. How do you possibly win with that? Two small doses guys, one save guy, and one inconsistent guy who can't pitch more than 1 inning per day, and probably can't do that more than 2 days of 3 or 3 of 5. It is simply untenable. I get that we just won 6 games notwithstanding this problem, but we can't rely on rain and blowouts.

Rovin Romine · Aug 18, 2016

How about we start by using Abad only against lefties? Surely there must be an inning or two where a lefty's in the lineup to begin.

bobesox · Aug 18, 2016

First a question. Does Koji have a shot at coming back?

Now a radical thought. I expect to get ripped a new one. Here goes. All starters for the balance of the year use their "side session throw day" as a relief appearance if necessary.

Would this screw pitchers up long term, probably not. Short term, maybe.

Can the club afford to waste a year where they could make a playoff run? The club appears to be putting all phases together except of course - the bullpen.

SouthernBoSox · Aug 18, 2016

Abad needs to face more lefties.

Zeigler needs to face more righties.

Ross needs to be used more, and go multiple innings if needes.

Buchholz needs to become a legitimate reliever. He's needed in the pen more than the rotation at this point and the stuff is certainly crisper and playing up.

The pen isn't great, it just isn't. Being used in a completely suboptimal way isn't helping.

Soxfan in Fla · Aug 18, 2016

JohntheBaptist said:
Yeah that was me, and I now completely agree. They can't get worse and maybe Paps has a hot few weeks.

Yeah. It can't get worse. You hold your breathe every time it goes to the pen. Thank goodness for the rain last night.

nothumb · Aug 18, 2016

There is still hope that the bullpen can be serviceable in time for the playoffs, but it will take a lot to get there.

My pipe dream would be something like DL Taz, get Koji healthy, Clay maintains his decent form as a reliever, and maybe even get something from Kelly. Use Abad strictly as a LOOGY. And if you make the playoffs, Pomeranz can hopefully be a good late inning lefty setup guy.

In that world, a playoff bullpen of Kimbrel, Koji, Pom, Z, Buch, Barnes, RRJ and either Kelly or Abad might have a shot at getting some guys out. If you squint.

TeddyBallgame9 · Aug 18, 2016

I know it seems like every time Joe Kelly pitches in the majors he is awful, but a quick peek at his numbers in Pawtucket suggest a glimpse of hope for this bullpen. 28 innings, 35/5 k/bb and a 1.08 WHIP. Could be time to give him another shot.

Maximus · Aug 18, 2016

DL Taz, call up Kelly, sign Pap, Abad only as a loogy, Ziegler primarily against righties, hopefully Koji makes it back.

curly2 · Aug 18, 2016

If Wright returns quickly and ERod is OK, Buchholz should go back to the bullpen. If Wright takes a while to return, is it worth it to give Brian Johnson, who's been piching very well of late, a shot in the rotation so Clay can strengthen the pen?

Tazawa's had a nice career for them, was huge in 2013, but he is just cooked. He should pitch only in mopup roles unless/until he shows in those mopup games that he can be trusted again.

Red(s)HawksFan · Aug 18, 2016

For a more immediate fix, bringing Kelly up and DLing Tazawa would probably be a good step. However, if they can survive another week and a half, the rosters expand and all kinds of reinforcements can be brought up for auditions.

Papelbon's Poutine · Aug 18, 2016

Anyone have a grasp on Robby Scott? His scouting reports don't seem to be too high on him, but his numbers look good. Scouting his boxscore only tells one so much, so just curious if anyone has a better handle on him.

Plympton91 · Aug 18, 2016

Part of the bigger problem is that this team is just not doing a good job of identifying and developing relief pitchers, in part because they refuse to do so:

Joe Kelly as a major league reliever: 3.20 ERA in 56 IP; almost a K per inning, and a 3-1 K/BB ratio. Even though they (thought they) had 6 to 8 candidates for the back of the rotation in spring training, they plowed him right into that group instead of addressing a glaring need for a hard-throwing righty set up man.

Even with the rotation fixed and the bullpen melting down, instead of breaking Kelly into the major league pen over the past month (during which he's pitched 12 innings at Pawtucket, giving up 12 H, 3 ER, 1 BB and 16 K), they've been cycling through one I-95 shuttle person after another at the end of the pen, and using an obviously not right Tazawa once a week instead of DLing him to make a spot.

Bad, bad, bad.

They felt they needed a lefthanded reliever so they traded for Abad (career against lefthanders):
Abad: .243 / .293 / .400

But guess what:

Roenis Elias against lefthanders in his major league career (including this year's disasters):

.232 / .320 / .349

Because Elias was a starter, that split is about the same sample size as Abad's, and because everybody is usually better as a reliever than a starter, a properly developed and managed Elias might have actually been better than Abad.

Also staying within the organization: Now that Brian Johnson is healthy (2.96 ERA, 51 IP, 43 H, 17 BB, 39 K in last 10 games), let's look at him

Last season vs. lefties for Pawtucket:

21.1 IP, 13 H, 7 BB, 27 K

Seems like he's also potentially better than Abad, but they haven't even explored the possibility yet, even though the rotation has stabilized quite nicely despite Wright's injury.

Given what I saw of Papelbon in DC, I can't imagine going with him before trying Kelly or Johnson. He's just not very good right now.

Sampo Gida · Aug 18, 2016

OK, its not a great BP, perhaps not even a very good bullpen, yet it does not seem to be used very wisely.

Why would Tazawa be your first choice for the 8th inning with the season he has had? Its not like he has been pitching especially well of late. And then you compound the problem by allowing him to stay in after surrendering 2 hits and pitch to Miggie with 1st base open?

Ziegler coming in next is perhaps not an awful choice even though he has been very inconsistent over his last 8 appearances, but he needed to be on a shorter leash. Also, with his WHIP I prefer seeing him start an inning clean, even if he did get out of a no out bases loaded jam the other day.

As inconsistent as most of the bullpen has been, they all have to be on a short leash. If that means going to an 8 man pen and having guys warm up more often so be it, Call ups are in just a couple of weeks

YTF · Aug 18, 2016

curly2 said:
If Wright returns quickly and ERod is OK, Buchholz should go back to the bullpen. If Wright takes a while to return, is it worth it to give Brian Johnson, who's been piching very well of late, a shot in the rotation so Clay can strengthen the pen?

Tazawa's had a nice career for them, was huge in 2013, but he is just cooked. He should pitch only in mopup roles unless/until he shows in those mopup games that he can be trusted again.

That sounds good, but here's the thing. Buchholz has taken a boatload of shit this season, all of it self inflicted. He's played the good soldier, has done everything asked of him and it wasn't an easy road back. If he makes Wright's next start and pitches well again, he's earned his way back into the rotation. Why fuck with that part of the equation by putting the Buchholz we've been clamoring for back into the pen and take a chance on Johnson. And if Johnson shits the bed, how many starts do you give him and then do you go to Buchholz and say, "Hey Clay can you help us out here?" Buch back to the pen when Wright returns.

MuzzyField · Aug 18, 2016

I'm all for reinforcements, but is the AAA and AA pitching talent actually capable of providing any?

bosockboy · Aug 18, 2016

I suspect DD will be watching the waiver wire intently for anyone that clears, maybe someone like Gregerson would clear and a deal could be made. With just cash there is zero downside to Paps, and it's time to give Kelly a run at this. And Old Yeller Abad.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Aug 18, 2016

The problem with Papelbon is that there's no indication he'd be willing to be a setup man. He mentally checked out in Washington once they acquired Melancon and was quickly cut. He's been vocal about his desire to close, and ONLY to close.

That's aside from his well-known personality issues, and that his actual performance was down again this year. He's not pitching like the shutdown 8th inning guy this team desperately needs.

I want nothing to do with his return here.

JohntheBaptist · Aug 18, 2016

Well neither Chicago or Boston will be signing him to close. I'm assuming they'll reiterate that to him, and if he chooses either he's on board with that idea. Not really a part of the concern.

Buzzkill Pauley · Aug 18, 2016

MuzzyField said:
I'm all for reinforcements, but is the AAA and AA pitching talent actually capable of providing any?

Yeah, it is.

As P91 noted above, both Elias and Johnson are possibly better than Abad against LHH.

Kelly is at least as credible a relief option as Barnes was to start the year, but he's been jerk ed around so much there's almost no time to work him into a role. Plus Kyle Martin as another RHP who throws hard...

That's four options who never got a real chance this season.

Two of them (Elias and Kelly) have already proven their stuff can get MLB hitters out. Just not consistently when trying to get multiple times through through a lineup. The other two have quite good numbers in AAA.

Don't think there's much ready to contribute in Portland, though.

And, of course, it's already crunch time.

Red(s)HawksFan · Aug 18, 2016

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
The problem with Papelbon is that there's no indication he'd be willing to be a setup man. He mentally checked out in Washington once they acquired Melancon and was quickly cut. He's been vocal about his desire to close, and ONLY to close.

That's aside from his well-known personality issues, and that his actual performance was down again this year. He's not pitching like the shutdown 8th inning guy this team desperately needs.

I want nothing to do with his return here.

He's been out there for, what, four or five days now and remains unsigned. If he's holding out for a guaranteed closer spot, he might be waiting some more. There isn't a contending team that is in need of a closer right now, so unless he wants to go to an also-ran who might give him one or two save opportunities a week, he's going to have to settle for a set-up role if he wants to pitch meaningful innings for a contender for the rest of this season.

I would hope his agent is smart enough to point out that a month plus of successful pitching in any role only increases his prospects of landing a closer job for next year.

I'm not on the Papelbon bandwagon because I'm not sure what he can actually offer, but at this point, after seeing Tazawa today, I'd be fine with them giving Pap a shot to replace him at the very least.

MuzzyField · Aug 18, 2016

Buzzkill Pauley said:
Yeah, it is.

As P91 noted above, both Elias and Johnson are possibly better than Abad against LHH.

Kelly is at least as credible a relief option as Barnes was to start the year, but he's been jerk ed around so much there's almost no time to work him into a role. Plus Kyle Martin as another RHP who throws hard...

That's four options who never got a real chance this season.

Two of them (Elias and Kelly) have already proven their stuff can get MLB hitters out. Just not consistently when trying to get multiple times through through a lineup. The other two have quite good numbers in AAA.

Don't think there's much ready to contribute in Portland, though.

And, of course, it's already crunch time.

Thanks Buzz.

If true, the team can't wait until rosters expand. It's time to start throwing bullpen spaghetti against the wall now.

If this weekend goes horrible, the Tigers will be a 1/2 game behind in the wildcard hunt.

Indeed, crunch time!

Plympton91 · Aug 18, 2016

Buzzkill Pauley said:
Yeah, it is.

As P91 noted above, both Elias and Johnson are possibly better than Abad against LHH.

Kelly is at least as credible a relief option as Barnes was to start the year, but he's been jerk ed around so much there's almost no time to work him into a role. Plus Kyle Martin as another RHP who throws hard...

That's four options who never got a real chance this season.

Two of them (Elias and Kelly) have already proven their stuff can get MLB hitters out. Just not consistently when trying to get multiple times through through a lineup. The other two have quite good numbers in AAA.

Don't think there's much ready to contribute in Portland, though.

And, of course, it's already crunch time.

The guy who is a long shot in Portland is Ben Taylor. He's throwing 95-98 and has had one bad outing that makes his ERA look bloated, but otherwise has been dominant.

And if you really want to throw a Hail Mary, look at Jake Cosart's first 7 innings for Salem.

For more on both of them, see their prospect threads.

effectivelywild · Aug 18, 2016

MuzzyField said:
I'm all for reinforcements, but is the AAA and AA pitching talent actually capable of providing any?

Edit: Or what Buzzkill said

I think Plymptom91's point is that there are guys in AAA right now who at least have the potential to be better than the currently ineffective Tazawa and that they're better off DLing Tazawa and finding out how these other guys (Kelly, Elias or Johnson) can be in the role rather than hoping that somehow continuing to throw out Tazawa will either a. stop resulting in blowing games or b. allow him to pitch through his issues. Both a and b seem pretty unlikely.

I guess the point is that right now there are at least two relievers (Tazawa and Abad) that are scuffling pretty bad (the latter at least in anything but low-leverage situations) and that there's good reason to give at least one of the aforementioned minor leaguers a chance to clear that low bar of effectiveness.

DanoooME · Aug 18, 2016

Buzzkill Pauley said:
Plus Kyle Martin as another RHP who throws hard...

Plympton91 said:
The guy who is a long shot in Portland is Ben Taylor. He's throwing 95-98 and has had one bad outing that makes his ERA look bloated, but otherwise has been dominant.

And if you really want to throw a Hail Mary, look at Jake Cosart's first 7 innings for Salem.

For more on both of them, see their prospect threads.

Part of the problem with these three guys is room on the 40-man. Who do you clear out of there for spots for these guys?

Red(s)HawksFan · Aug 18, 2016

DanoooME said:
Part of the problem with these three guys is room on the 40-man. Who do you clear out of there for spots for these guys?

There's only 39 players on the roster at the moment. Koji could be shifted to the 60-day DL if he's not coming back, so that's another spot. There's some flotsam they could discard if they wanted to promote others. (does William Jerez or Noe Ramirez really need to be kept around?)

Plympton91 · Aug 18, 2016

Red(s)HawksFan said:
There's only 39 players on the roster at the moment. Koji could be shifted to the 60-day DL if he's not coming back, so that's another spot. There's some flotsam they could discard if they wanted to promote others. (does William Jerez or Noe Ramirez really need to be kept around?)

Or Marerro? Brentz? Lots of room there.

dhappy42 · Aug 18, 2016

According to Fangraphs, Toronto, Baltimore and Boston each have 13 blown saves. Not sure what to make of that. (Yankees lead the league with just 9. White Sox have 23.)

Buzzkill Pauley · Aug 18, 2016

Plympton91 said:
Or Marerro? Brentz? Lots of room there.

Lots of room but little time.

The biggest problem with the minor league options, and the biggest benefit that Papelbon could provide, is the need for time to prove themselves. Papelbon's already proved himself able to get MLB hitters out to Farrell in high-leverage situations, but none of the other guys have done so.

The time needed for that is in short supply. So Papelbon just may be the best realistic option this season.

bosockboy · Aug 19, 2016

David Robertson is definitely an option and would clear waivers.

geoduck no quahog · Aug 19, 2016

I don't think blown saves is the stat to look at. I'm going to start with the Red Sox relievers who have thrown the most innings and look at some of their worst outings (I won't clog it up with opponents):

Robbie Ross (12)
12 April: 2.0 IP / 5H (HR) / 1BB
17 April: 1.0 IP / 2H
22 April: 0.2 IP / 2H / 1BB
10 May:1.0 IP / 1H / 1BB
15 May: 0.2 IP / 1H / 2BB
2 June: 0.2 IP / 1H / 1BB
25 June: 1.2 IP / 3H / 1BB
2 July: 0.1 IP / 5H / 1BB
26 July: 2.0 IP / 2H / 2BB
6 Aug: 1.1 IP / 2BB
10 Aug: 1.0 IP / 1H / 1BB
13 Aug: 1.0 IP / 1H / 1BB

Tazawa (12)
6 Apr: 0.1 IP / 1H (HR) / 1BB
3 May: 0.1 IP / 2H / 2BB
28 May: 0.1 IP / 2H
2 June: 1.0 IP / 2H ( 2HR's) / 1BB
15 June: 0.2 IP / 2H
23 June: 0.2 / 1H (HR)
28 June: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR)
3 July: 1.0 IP / 3H
22 July: 1.0 IP / 2H
7 Aug: 1.0 IP / 2H (2HR's) / 1BB
10 Aug: 0.1 IP / 2H (HR) / 2BB
18 Aug: 0.0 IP / 3H

Kimbrel (7)
11 April: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR) / 2BB
24 April: 1.0 IP / 2H (HR)
20 June: 0.2 IP / 2H / 1BB
23 June: 2.0 IP / 1H / 2BB
27 June: 1.0 IP / 3H / 1BB
5 July: 0.0 IP / 3H (HR) / 1BB
9 Aug: 0.2 IP / 4BB

Hembree (7)
5 May: 1.1 IP / 5H / 2BB
21 May: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR) / 1BB
29 May: 1.1 IP / 3H (HR)
22 June: 0.2 IP / 1H
2 July: 1.2 IP / 3H / 1BB
8 July: 0.2 IP / 1H
23 July: 0.1 IP / 3H (HR)

Koji (9)
18 April: 0.1 IP / 1H / 2BB
17 May: 0.2 IP / 3H (HR)
27 May: 1.0 IP / 2H (HR)
3 June: 0.2 IP / 1H (HR) / 1BB
22 June: 0.2 IP / 4H (2HR's)
27 June: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR) / 1BB
1 July: 1.0 IP / 2H
4 July: 0.1 IP / 2H
8 July: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR)

I'll fill in more later. (BTW, Ross has only given up 1 HR)

Papelbon's Poutine · Aug 19, 2016

bosockboy said:
David Robertson is definitely an option and would clear waivers.

I'm pretty sure most everyone has been put on waivers by this date and anxiously await the rumor mill to start telling us who cleared. I'd certainly target Robertson if he clears, but I'm not sure CHW are just looking to dump salary to whomever claims him so I don't think a team would necessarily fear a block claim.

joe dokes · Aug 19, 2016

dhappy42 said:
According to Fangraphs, Toronto, Baltimore and Boston each have 13 blown saves. Not sure what to make of that. (Yankees lead the league with just 9. White Sox have 23.)

..
The problem with the "blown save" stat is that all blown saves are not created equally. Come into a game in the 6th inning, up by 1 run, bases loaded nobody out, get Ty Cobb to ground into a 6-4-3 DP, run scores. Then strike out Babe Ruth with a guy on third. You, me and everyone else says "Great job." It's a blown save. As is giving up 4 with a 3-run lead in the 9th.
I'm not sure of the best way to compare, but geoduck's look at actual performances is probably on the right track. Given the sample sizes of a partial season, "who has the fewest really shitty relief performances" is probably the best way to see which teams are being best served by their relievers (or which relievers are best serving their teams.)

Rovin Romine · Aug 19, 2016

geoduck no quahog said:
I don't think blown saves is the stat to look at. I'm going to start with the Red Sox relievers who have thrown the most innings and look at some of their worst outings (I won't clog it up with opponents):

Robbie Ross (12)
12 April: 2.0 IP / 5H (HR) / 1BB
17 April: 1.0 IP / 2H
22 April: 0.2 IP / 2H / 1BB
10 May:1.0 IP / 1H / 1BB
15 May: 0.2 IP / 1H / 2BB
2 June: 0.2 IP / 1H / 1BB
25 June: 1.2 IP / 3H / 1BB
2 July: 0.1 IP / 5H / 1BB
26 July: 2.0 IP / 2H / 2BB
6 Aug: 1.1 IP / 2BB
10 Aug: 1.0 IP / 1H / 1BB
13 Aug: 1.0 IP / 1H / 1BB

Tazawa (12)
6 Apr: 0.1 IP / 1H (HR) / 1BB
3 May: 0.1 IP / 2H / 2BB
28 May: 0.1 IP / 2H
2 June: 1.0 IP / 2H ( 2HR's) / 1BB
15 June: 0.2 IP / 2H
23 June: 0.2 / 1H (HR)
28 June: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR)
3 July: 1.0 IP / 3H
22 July: 1.0 IP / 2H
7 Aug: 1.0 IP / 2H (2HR's) / 1BB
10 Aug: 0.1 IP / 2H (HR) / 2BB
18 Aug: 0.0 IP / 3H

Kimbrel (7)
11 April: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR) / 2BB
24 April: 1.0 IP / 2H (HR)
20 June: 0.2 IP / 2H / 1BB
23 June: 2.0 IP / 1H / 2BB
27 June: 1.0 IP / 3H / 1BB
5 July: 0.0 IP / 3H (HR) / 1BB
9 Aug: 0.2 IP / 4BB

Hembree (7)
5 May: 1.1 IP / 5H / 2BB
21 May: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR) / 1BB
29 May: 1.1 IP / 3H (HR)
22 June: 0.2 IP / 1H
2 July: 1.2 IP / 3H / 1BB
8 July: 0.2 IP / 1H
23 July: 0.1 IP / 3H (HR)

Koji (9)
18 April: 0.1 IP / 1H / 2BB
17 May: 0.2 IP / 3H (HR)
27 May: 1.0 IP / 2H (HR)
3 June: 0.2 IP / 1H (HR) / 1BB
22 June: 0.2 IP / 4H (2HR's)
27 June: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR) / 1BB
1 July: 1.0 IP / 2H
4 July: 0.1 IP / 2H
8 July: 1.0 IP / 1H (HR)

I'll fill in more later. (BTW, Ross has only given up 1 HR)

I'm not sure how relevant April numbers are to anything at this point. I mean, let's assume that all the relievers started healthy and there isn't anyone riding smoke and mirrors success into the season this late.

I think Farrell ought to be able to identify *as of now* which relievers are best at which match-ups and how long each can go. Since he does not have a hierarchy bullpen (a clear high leverage guy, leading to a clear setup man leading to a clear closer), to maximize his bullpen, he's got to play the matches/leverage game better than he's doing now. Even if it means explaining to Kimbrell that he's going to occasionally be the "high leverage/meat of the order" man against division rivals. If a pitcher is toast (Taz) he's got to at least try to replace him until the rosters expand - if no trade is in the offing, get one of the AAA starters up and use them as a stopgap a la Workman. And who knows - you can always get lighting in a bottle the first time through the league/lineup.

I don't think he ought to pursue his "identification quest" of auditioning guys to be "the setup man" or whatnot. We're in mid-August.

It's great that we won six in a row, although at least one of those was won in spite of Farrell. It stings that it could have been seven in a row. For any who thinks that sounds "greedy" or "entitled," we're not talking about a) passing a massive lead, or b) expending to win every game. Yesterday's game is the perfect example of a marginal game that had a much better chance of being swung to our advantage had Farrell made better decisions then test driving Taz in a tight game against a WC rival.

FanSinceBoggs · Aug 19, 2016

Farrell is always late to the party. Tazawa isn't an 8th inning set up guy anymore. He isn't good enough for that and the stats say this loud and clear.

The Red Sox need to find an 8th inning set up guy. I would consider using Barnes in that capacity; I also like the suggestions some SoSH members have made: using J.Kelly or Buchholz in that capacity. Ross can do it, but the Red Sox would lose a valuable middle reliever. The Red Sox need to make a decision on this and get it right. Unfortunately, Farrell will probably continue to call on Tazawa in the 8th inning of close games.

Soxfan in Fla · Aug 19, 2016

FanSinceBoggs said:
Farrell is always late to the party. Tazawa isn't an 8th inning set up guy anymore. He isn't good enough for that and the stats say this loud and clear.

The Red Sox need to find an 8th inning set up guy. I would consider using Barnes in that capacity; I also like the suggestions some SoSH members have made: using J.Kelly or Buchholz in that capacity. Ross can do it, but the Red Sox would lose a valuable middle reliever. The Red Sox need to make a decision on this and get it right. Unfortunately, Farrell will probably continue to call on Tazawa in the 8th inning of close games.

I honestly couldn't believe he was in there to start the 8th. The result was not surprising.

TFisNEXT · Aug 19, 2016

FanSinceBoggs said:
Farrell is always late to the party. Tazawa isn't an 8th inning set up guy anymore. He isn't good enough for that and the stats say this loud and clear.

The Red Sox need to find an 8th inning set up guy. I would consider using Barnes in that capacity; I also like the suggestions some SoSH members have made: using J.Kelly or Buchholz in that capacity. Ross can do it, but the Red Sox would lose a valuable middle reliever. The Red Sox need to make a decision on this and get it right. Unfortunately, Farrell will probably continue to call on Tazawa in the 8th inning of close games.

Barnes can walk the bases loaded with little notice. Joe Kelly? He might walk 5 in a row. They aren't going to be any more consistent in the 8th inning than previous options. Yeah, at times they looks great, but then just when you think you found the answer, they completely implode.

Buchholz is more intriguing as he seems to have actually turned a corner with the corrected mechanics, but we may be waiting for him to return to the BP pending Wright's status. Ross is another intriguing option. He's pitched pretty well this year and is capable of getting righties out too. He has a large L/R split this year, but his career split is almost neutral. Even with his big split this season, he is still only giving up a .243/.328/.301 line to righties and has been death on lefties. But Farrell has already started to use Ross more, such as yesterday in the 7th inning. So you still need an arm in the 7th if you start using him more in the 8th. At this point, I'm all for trying out Paps. He doesn't need to be 2006-2011 Paps to help out, just merely better than the garbage we've been sending out there. There's a pretty realistic chance he can do that.

Whatever they do, hopefully they can hold it together and hopefully get Koji back in September at some point. He's apparently been throwing from 150 feet recently, so there's a decent chance he comes back this season. He had some HR issues this year, but was showing signs in his final several appearances that he was getting better command of his split. I think before he got injured, he finished with 4 or 5 straight scoreless appearance and many of them were as closer with Kimbrel out.

mfried · Aug 19, 2016

bobesox said:
First a question. Does Koji have a shot at coming back?

Now a radical thought. I expect to get ripped a new one. Here goes. All starters for the balance of the year use their "side session throw day" as a relief appearance if necessary.

Would this screw pitchers up long term, probably not. Short term, maybe.

Can the club afford to waste a year where they could make a playoff run? The club appears to be putting all phases together except of course - the bullpen.

The idea of side session=inning of relief is the smartest one I've heard. Putting Pomeranz in the bullpen is a total waste. The guy may not be great but his 5th and 6th innings are as good as his first. Ziegler will turn out to be the bullpen MVP if he's used carefully - no bases load, minimize lefties, etc.

simplicio · Aug 19, 2016

mfried said:
The idea of side session=inning of relief is the smartest one I've heard. Putting Pomeranz in the bullpen is a total waste. The guy may not be great but his 5th and 6th innings are as good as his first. Ziegler will turn out to be the bullpen MVP if he's used carefully - no bases load, minimize lefties, etc.

Yeah, except Ziegler's also shown himself to be capable of getting out of extremely right situations, plus he's our best shot at inducing GIDP. Keeping him away from lefties when possible is a good idea though.

oumbi · Aug 19, 2016

ifmanis5 said:
I've lost count of how many games the pen has cost the team this season.

After checking the stats, the RS have blown 13 saves which is middle of the road in the AL. The White Sox have the most with 23. Save percentage is 70.45% which is also middle of the road. Yankees are first at 80%. Those numbers seem better than what it feels like.

Perhaps another way to view these stats is that while they are middle of the road and not terrible, the Red Sox need much better than that to compete for the AL East leadership and the playoffs. That is, those are mediocre stats on a team that needs superior stats from their bull pen.

If they had blown only 10 saves instead of 13, that would put them into first place by 1.5 games. So, no, those numbers aren't better than it feels.

Heating up in the bullpen · Aug 19, 2016

Taking a step back, given the pitching resources at the Red Sox disposal, how does SOSH feel they should be deployed at this point? Below is the pitching on the active roster, followed by the pitching on the 40-man. Mix and match - where does everyone go? What should the BP look like when Wright comes off the DL? What should it look like - and how should it be used - in September?

Active Roster
Pomeranz (L) Starter
Porcello (R) Starter
Price (L) Starter
Rodriguez (L) Starter
Buchholz (R) Starter until Wright comes off the DL

Kimbrell (R) Closer
Abad (L)
Barnes (R)
Hembree (R)
Ross Jr. (L)
Tazawa (R)
Ziegler (R)

Looking at the current relievers, I see Barnes and Ross Jr. as the primary 8th inning guys, depending on match-ups, with the other as the 7th inning guy. Ziegler mixes in that 7th/8th inning area depending on match-ups and usage. At this point I would only want to see Tazawa in low-leverage situations to see if he can actually get anybody out. Pretty much the same for Abad. Farrell hasn't used Hembree since his 8/15 call-up so we don't know what he's looking like at this point; can he be any worse than Tazawa?

40-Man
Wright (R) - DL Starter
Koji (R) - DL
Cuevas (R)
Elias (L)
Jerez (L)
B Johnson (L)
Kelly (R)
Owens (L)
N Ramirez (R)

When Wright comes back (and all reports indicate he will be ready when he's eligible to come off the DL, so he should be able to make his 8/23 start) Buchholz moves back to the bullpen and Hembree goes back to Pawtucket. When Clay is back in the bullpen do you save him for long duty, or use him in higher lev situations?

Nine days after Wright comes back the rosters expand. Including tonight's game, there are 13 games before rosters expand. That may be a small enough number of games to not shake things up, but should the Sox be considering releasing Tazawa and bringing Kelly back? That feels somewhat drastic, especially for such a short time. I'd prefer to hide Tazawa as much as possible until rosters expand; just give him some low leverage opportunities to show he can get hitters out.

Then there's the Papelbon possibility. If the Sox brought him in now, which of the non-Hembree pitchers would you drop? It would have to be Tazawa, right? Again, given the short amount of time until rosters expand, the Sox may prefer to hold off on this move until Sept 1.

The Bullpen Thread

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Hustle and bustle

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill

Member

Johnny Rico

New Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Homeland Security

bubble burster

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Throw Momma From the Train

Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

bubble burster

Member

above replacement level

Member

Member

bubble burster

Straw Man

Member

Member

not particularly consistent

Homeland Security

Member

Johnny Rico

seantwo

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member