The Athletic: The Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball

Van Everyman

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,108
Newton
amRadio said:
I also don't remember players tattletaling on their way out like Mike Fiers did here.
Click to expand...
Eric Mangini says hi.

One of the biggest problems with Spygate was that Goodell made it look like there was one bad actor doing a really bad thing as opposed to a small thing that was part of a long culture of gamesmanship. Manfred sounds like he's treading close to doing something similar with his latest comments about not having any reason to believe it goes beyond the Astros at this time.

It may well be that the Astros are the worst offenders here. But simply dropping the hammer on one team here without really exploring whether other teams (including the Red Sox) have been doing the same would set a bad precedent -- and likely set Manfred up for having to revisit this at a later date.
 
Awesome Fossum

Awesome Fossum

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,910
Austin, TX
Did Goodell ever have to revisit Spygate? I don't recall another team ever getting cute with the location of a camera again. If his goal is to make sure this never, ever happens again on his watch, dropping the hammer hard enough on just Houston can scare anyone else away from even messing around with it. If his goal is perfect justice, that probably will be insufficient, but I doubt that's what he's after.
 
lexrageorge

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,224
Awesome Fossum said:
Did Goodell ever have to revisit Spygate? I don't recall another team ever getting cute with the location of a camera again. If his goal is to make sure this never, ever happens again on his watch, dropping the hammer hard enough on just Houston can scare anyone else away from even messing around with it. If his goal is perfect justice, that probably will be insufficient, but I doubt that's what he's after.
Click to expand...
Soon after Spygate, NFL teams adopted an in-helmet communication system (aka, the green dot) for defensive players. So no more hand signals from the sideline.

I do agree one of Manfred's goals in doling out punishment will be prevention. And woe behold anyone caught lying in an attempt to cover up their own or their team's actions. Bountygate was mentioned upthread; one reason for the severity of the punishments in that case was the fact that some of the key players attempted to cover things up when Goodell went knocking on the door.
 
Yelling At Clouds

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,443
Green Monster said:
I am not sure if these are a relevant comparison but both are recent and involve front-offices

AJ Preller Falsifying Medical Records
https://www.latimes.com/sports/mlb/la-sp-preller-padres-suspend-20160915-snap-story.html
Cardinals Hacking the Astros computer network
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jan/30/st-louis-cardinals-hacking-scandal-punishment-houston-astros-mlb
Click to expand...
The harshest punishment for anything under Manfred so far is probably John Copolella getting banned for life, no? Similar situation in that most people acknowledge that it wasn’t only the Braves who were skirting the rules, but they ultimately paid the price.
 
drbretto

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,147
Concord, NH
YTF said:
I'd be much more concerned over any forfeiture the Cora might need to make.
Click to expand...
As much as we all should be thinking like e5 above and keep our glass houses instincts active, if I'm Manfred, I want to isolate thus as much as possible to the Astros. Cora's name will obviously always be attached, but only in Facebook comments.

MLB needs to come down hard on the Astros system both to set an example and to placate the masses. As long as the majority find that punishment harsh enough to satisfy the general public, the whole things falls off as soon as it's boring. If they were to go after each and every individual involved, it would only highlight the larger problems.

I have no doubt Cora gets a behind closed doors talk. "you're lucky this ends here, don't fuck it up" kind of deal. Maybe a token fine just to not let him off the hook, since his name is already out there.
 
edoug

edoug

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,007
drbretto said:
As much as we all should be thinking like e5 above and keep our glass houses instincts active, if I'm Manfred, I want to isolate thus as much as possible to the Astros. Cora's name will obviously always be attached, but only in Facebook comments.

MLB needs to come down hard on the Astros system both to set an example and to placate the masses. As long as the majority find that punishment harsh enough to satisfy the general public, the whole things falls off as soon as it's boring. If they were to go after each and every individual involved, it would only highlight the larger problems.

I have no doubt Cora gets a behind closed doors talk. "you're lucky this ends here, don't fuck it up" kind of deal. Maybe a token fine just to not let him off the hook, since his name is already out there.
Click to expand...
Unless it's proven he had no involvement, I can't see him just getting a fine. To get caught so quickly after the apple watch
incident, MLB is going to have to come down hard. Especially how huge the story has become.
 
drbretto

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,147
Concord, NH
That's fair, I might be minimizing it. I suppose the degree of punishment isn't so much the issue. More that I don't see it coming to bite, say, the 2018 Red Sox or the club moving forward. They'll do whatever the satisfies the media enough to move on, doing their best to contain it and not make it out to be a bigger issue (that it likely is).
 
Van Everyman

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,108
Newton
Does anyone here think maybe this whole thing was Cora’s brainchild? In one piece I read it suggested that Cora has long had a talent for stealing signs – that it was part of his “genius” rep. It sounds like this system was devised in 2017, the year he came aboard. And as bench coach, he would certainly be able to implement it across the lineup and organization.

Were I Houston, I would be screaming that from the rooftops if it were so. But maybe, Cora’s name surfacing as quickly as it did is just that. It certainly sounds like he was more involved in it than anything we’ve heard about Hinch so far.
 
drbretto

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,147
Concord, NH
Van Everyman said:
Does anyone here think maybe this whole thing was Cora’s brainchild? In one piece I read it suggested that Cora has long had a talent for stealing signs – that it was part of his “genius” rep. It sounds like this system was devised in 2017, the year he came aboard. And as bench coach, he would certainly be able to implement it across the lineup and organization.

Were I Houston, I would be screaming that from the rooftops if it were so. But maybe, Cora’s name surfacing as quickly as it did is just that. It certainly sounds like he was more involved in it than anything we’ve heard about Hinch so far.
Click to expand...
It's high speculation and that's dangerous in these kinds of situations. That's how misinformation happens.

That said, yup. I thought it in 2018, long before these allegations cane out. I thought it during the playoffs, figuring at the very least he knew what the Astros were going to do because he was at least part of it.

I don't know that I would be saying that if I were Houston though. It'd just make them look like they're blame shifting. Even if Cora was anywhere from a part of it to the mastermind behind it, the Astros organization allowed it. Their best move is to say as little as possible.
 
jon abbey

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,204
Van Everyman said:
Does anyone here think maybe this whole thing was Cora’s brainchild? In one piece I read it suggested that Cora has long had a talent for stealing signs – that it was part of his “genius” rep. It sounds like this system was devised in 2017, the year he came aboard. And as bench coach, he would certainly be able to implement it across the lineup and organization.

Were I Houston, I would be screaming that from the rooftops if it were so. But maybe, Cora’s name surfacing as quickly as it did is just that. It certainly sounds like he was more involved in it than anything we’ve heard about Hinch so far.
Click to expand...
Cora and Beltran were the ringleaders is my guess, more than Hinch, but again I don't know anything more than anyone else.
 
edoug

edoug

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,007
drbretto said:
That's fair, I might be minimizing it. I suppose the degree of punishment isn't so much the issue. More that I don't see it coming to bite, say, the 2018 Red Sox or the club moving forward. They'll do whatever the satisfies the media enough to move on, doing their best to contain it and not make it out to be a bigger issue (that it likely is).
Click to expand...
Yeah, I never did understand the Sox were in trouble pov here, as far as this goes. Other then their dependence on Cora as the manager. And if Cora wasn't so popular would the the Sox fire him? The front office weren't very happy after their own sign stealing mess.
 
P

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
I wonder if there would be less of a backlash if it were revealed that the system was devised and implemented by ex-players, Hinch, Cora, Beltran, than if it were a stat head, front-office initiative? Seems like there’s a bit of “dah unwritten rulz” flavor to this. And, if it were players running the show that might seems at least a little less skeezy than if it were Luhnow’s directive.
 
Yelling At Clouds

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,443
It’s interesting. The initial article suggests that this whole scheme was recommended by two “veteran players,” one of whom had done something similar with a previous team. Let’s assume, for the moment, that player was Carlos Beltran, based on comments made by Alexes Bregman and Cora, as well as the fact that there weren’t a ton of veteran hitters on that Houston team. (I assume McCann was the other, but we’ll leave that alone for now.) Looking at Beltran’s resume, and I see a team he was on who have developed something fo a reputation for riding teams to glory beyond what their surface talent suggests, to the point where people have jokingly referred to it as “Devil Magic.” And, conveniently, that team also used to employ Jeff Lunhow.
 
OCD SS

OCD SS

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2004
8,345
Brooklyn loft with 6 ‘gators, 5 turtles, 1 iguana.
jon abbey said:
If you don't see how this is materially different from anything else we've ever learned about in the history of MLB, I recommend reading more about it.

Ken Rosenthal just posted another new column, basically saying this was almost certainly more prevalent than just HOU but they haven't been able to confirm anyone else enough to print it, at least yet.

https://theathletic.com/1393498/2019/11/19/rosenthal-mlbs-sign-stealing-investigation-should-not-stop-at-the-astros/
Click to expand...
Annecdotally, Ottavino was hearing the Dodgers banging on a garbage can in his last game with the Rox, and Ianetta was too stubborn to change their signs.

Any remedy that is looking at other sports is a waste of time IMO. The Astros are facing a definte fine, maybe a loss of draft pick(s), and an outside chance of suspensions or banishment (which I think is really unlikely unless something else blows up).
 
JimD

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,695
It's hard to believe that this scheme was the brainchild of Cora and Beltran when there is proof of the organization's systematic attempt to steal signs, in the form of an e-mail from the Luhnow's special assistant asking scouts to do exactly that. Not to mention that there should have been plenty of time for Hinch, Luhnow and the other supposed adults in the Houston organization to tell whoever was setting up the camera, monitor and trash can to knock that shit off. Cora and Beltran may well have been involved in this, but I'm increasingly thinking that it was because they arrived in Houston to find this culture already in place.
 
jon abbey

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,204
Passan with the latest:

"Players have been asked about buzzing, Band-Aid-like wearable stickers; furtive earpieces; pitch-picking algorithms; and other potential methods of sign-stealing, the sources said. Accusations about the extent of the alleged wrongdoing have streamed into commissioner Rob Manfred's office from officials of other teams, the sources said. MLB officials are endeavoring to separate fact from fiction, the sources told ESPN, and the league has not concluded whether any such methods actually have been used.

Players who might have violated league rules have been told by MLB officials they can expect leniency in exchange for answering questions truthfully. But members of the Astros' front office and coaching staff could face significant punishment upon the investigation's conclusion if they're found to have cheated, the sources said. The league has requested to search the phones of certain members of the Astros' front office, the sources said."

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28143162/sources-mlb-querying-players-astros-sign-stealing-allegations
 
jon abbey

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,204
If I am HOU right now, I am trying to figure out how much it will cost to get Taubman to take as much of the organizational blame for this as possible, since his career is already on thin ice if not done.

Does Manfred have the power potentially to force Crane to sell the team in the near future, a la Donald Sterling in the NBA? If MLB really wanted to scare teams away from doing this as much as possible in the future, get a new owner in there and clean house, that seems to me the way to go. I think Manfred will more prefer to sweep it under the rug as much as he can, which they seem to have already done once (the rule changes coming into 2019 clearly targeted some of the things the Astros were doing), but the Taubman thing also was horrible for MLB from start to finish, overshadowing the first half of a really compelling WS matchup. Crane will turn a huge profit on his original purchase but he should take the fall IMO, at least from what we know currently.

I'm also waiting for some of the old allegations about HOU's pitching staff from this time to resurface, increased spin rates because of some unknown illegal substance they were allegedly using for pine tar. Trevor Bauer was very public with what he thought at the time, whether he was right or just jealous of his college teammate/rival Cole's success (or both) I am less sure about. Tom Verducci casts some doubt on it at the time, but again, notice which team was being accused of pushing the rules too far. Some combination of smoke, fire and jealousy from the rest of baseball towards HOU, but almost definitely a good bit of fire.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/05/02/trevor-bauer-houston-astros-spin-rate-pine-tar
 
Marciano490

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,317
jon abbey said:
Passan with the latest:

"Players have been asked about buzzing, Band-Aid-like wearable stickers; furtive earpieces; pitch-picking algorithms; and other potential methods of sign-stealing, the sources said. Accusations about the extent of the alleged wrongdoing have streamed into commissioner Rob Manfred's office from officials of other teams, the sources said. MLB officials are endeavoring to separate fact from fiction, the sources told ESPN, and the league has not concluded whether any such methods actually have been used.

Players who might have violated league rules have been told by MLB officials they can expect leniency in exchange for answering questions truthfully. But members of the Astros' front office and coaching staff could face significant punishment upon the investigation's conclusion if they're found to have cheated, the sources said. The league has requested to search the phones of certain members of the Astros' front office, the sources said."

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28143162/sources-mlb-querying-players-astros-sign-stealing-allegations
Click to expand...
Are pitch picking algorithms illegal or just furtively conveying them to batters?
 
jon abbey

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,204
kenneycb said:
Awesome article from the Ringer to see if this matters. Tl;dr who knows? But at least gets to many points that I’m curious about specifically. It’s easy to point to drum/HR but a there are probably 6k ABs per year.

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2019/11/22/20977542/astros-sign-stealing-benefit-wins-advantage
Click to expand...
FWIW, the lead story on BP right now concludes the opposite (and it looks like they made it free, yay):

Moonshot: The Astros’ Offense Took A Huge Leap After They Started Stealing Signs

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/55450/the-astros-offense-took-a-huge-leap-after-they-started-stealing-signs/
 
Green Monster

Green Monster

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,277
CT
If I am HOU right now, I am trying to figure out how much it will cost to get Taubman to take as much of the organizational blame for this as possible, since his career is already on thin ice if not done.
Click to expand...
Not sure what this means...are you suggesting they blame Taubman for things he wasn't responsible for? ....or pay him to publicly accept blame for things he wasn't responsible for to protect the organization that just fired him??
 
jon abbey

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,204
A bit of an update from Tom Verducci:

"MLB commissioner Rob Manfred ordered an immediate probe into Fiers’s claim. A source familiar with the sign-stealing investigation said by midweek that Manfred’s investigators had interviewed “15 to 20” Astros personnel, including the 2017 coaching staff and manager A.J. Hinch—some more than once. The source said the investigation confirmed the scheme as described by Fiers was used during a period of about three months during the 2017 regular season. The source added that the investigation is also pursuing whether the Astros used modified systems to acquire signs in the 2017 postseason, when scrutiny is heightened and the banging of a trash can would be more manifest. The Astros were 8–1 at home in the 2017 postseason.

MLB is also investigating a directive by the Houston front office to its scouts that encouraged the use of cameras to surveil dugouts of potential playoff opponents as part of the team’s preparation for the 2017 postseason.

One team official says, “I don’t know if MLB wants to turn over every rock, because this is the culmination of where the game is going. Whatever comes out of this has to be good for the game. This gives MLB ample opportunity in this day and age to do whatever they want with protocols. You can reshape where technology is in our game. You have a golden opportunity to restructure some processes in baseball.”

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/11/22/astros-sign-stealing-2017-playoffs
 
jon abbey

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,204
"SAN DIEGO — Major League Baseball’s investigation into the Astros likely will not be completed until after the new year, sources with knowledge of the investigation told The Athletic.

The league’s department of investigations has 76,000 emails to examine and has already conducted 60 interviews, commissioner Rob Manfred said Wednesday, as the league tries to understand the scope of the Astros’ electronic sign-stealing efforts. The league also has a store of instant messages to sift through as well, Manfred said. That includes messages from the Slack communications platform, a source said.

“I think that this is probably the most thorough investigation that the commissioner’s office has ever undertaken,” Manfred said in a news conference at the Winter Meetings. “That review has caused us to conclude that we have to do some follow-up interviewing. It is my hope to conclude the investigation just as promptly as possible, but it’s really hard to predict how long something like that is going to take.

“At this point in the investigation it would be wholly inappropriate for me to speculate about what types of discipline might be in play. I’m going to get all the facts in front of me and make a decision as promptly as possible on discipline, and obviously you all will know about it as soon as it happens.”

A report shown to be incomplete after the fact would be a wart on the league’s credibility, particularly after Manfred’s public commitment to thoroughness — a point that may underscore Manfred’s deliberate approach.

The Athletic reported in November that the 2017 Astros stole signs electronically with the aid of a center-field camera fixed on the catcher’s signs. More difficult for the league than vetting the depths of the 2017 scheme is its determination of what happened in 2018 and 2019, if anything. MLB has leads it is pursuing relating to the 2018 Astros, sources said. The violations suggested by those leads were not nearly at the same level of those that took place in ’17, and any wrongdoing, if it occurred, may have been more sporadic in nature."

More at the link:

https://theathletic.com/1452572/2019/12/11/astros-investigation-likely-will-not-be-concluded-before-new-year-sources-say/
 
jon abbey

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,204
Rumors last week were that the penalties will be quite drastic, we'll see.
 
loshjott

loshjott

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
14,996
Silver Spring, MD
Wow.

@JeffPassan
· 1m
BREAKING: Houston Astros GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch have been suspended for one year after an MLB investigation found the team used technology to cheat during its World Series-winning 2017 season, sources familiar with the punishment tell ESPN.
 
steveluck7

steveluck7

Member
SoSH Member
May 10, 2007
4,002
Burrillville, RI
More from Passan...
Nothing for Beltran but Cora is in the crosshairs

Discipline for Red Sox manager Alex Cora is coming. It is going to be harsh, per sources.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom