The Athletic: The Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball

InstaFace

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Absolutely nothing about that is damning in the slightest.

I'd like for this to be true (I think...), and if it is there is plenty of evidence around and plenty of people who were aware or saw something, so keeping omerta on all that seems unlikely. But this itself isn't evidence of anything.
 

mauidano

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View: https://twitter.com/UnhingedYankees/status/1217903113954263040

I'm no professional lip reader, but I think it's pretty clear what Altuve is saying here. "I got a piece on... No."

View: https://twitter.com/JamesZeht/status/1217662955040526336

On top of the adrenaline pumping and telling ur teammates not to rip your jersey off, your the first one to go into the clubhouse while everyone else celebrates on the field and puts the shirt on over the jersey? Jose Altuve clearly has wires under his jersey.
 

bosox188

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I haven't seen this posted in any of the threads yet, seems like this is the best place to put it:


We're reaching a new level of absurdity here. The MLB can't have people coming out of the woodwork taking snipes at random teams and players in some kind of dirty laundry arms race. And even if the above is true, what a supremely shitty thing to do to Trout if he actually does have a thyroid condition that requires it.
 

patoaflac

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I haven't seen this posted in any of the threads yet, seems like this is the best place to put it:


We're reaching a new level of absurdity here. The MLB can't have people coming out of the woodwork taking snipes at random teams and players in some kind of dirty laundry arms race. And even if the above is true, what a supremely shitty thing to do to Trout if he actually does have a thyroid condition that requires it.
HGH is not used for any thyroid condition.
 

InstaFace

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yeah nothing is more "look at this photo of Nessie kissing Bigfoot" than the jersey-wrinkle analysis, circled as if it's obvious and 100% of people would agree on that conclusion.
 

BaseballJones

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yeah nothing is more "look at this photo of Nessie kissing Bigfoot" than the jersey-wrinkle analysis, circled as if it's obvious and 100% of people would agree on that conclusion.
I agree. Except that: (1) we know the Astros already had a sophisticated way to cheat, (2) there were VERY SPECIFIC allegations made about Altuve wearing an electronic device on the inside of his right shoulder (exactly where that strange little wrinkle is), (3) we have video of him holding his shirt after the game (and series) winning HR, telling his teammates to not rip off his shirt, and (4) while his teammates were celebrating, Altuve went right to the clubhouse to change.

Circumstantial? Obviously. Convincing? Not really. Absurd? No. Not at all.
 

Marciano490

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Maybe I’m messy, but I think it’s hilarious people are going to sift through pictures of a few hundred position players looking for folds and wrinkles.
 

bosockboy

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I'm not blaming him of anything, this is just a wild thing to watch unfold, with players accusing each other of cheating out there on the world wide web.
I agree; the dam has burst. The cheating could have cost both fringe players and regulars an incalculable amount of lost salary and championship bonuses.
 

VORP Speed

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Pham lost a Game 5 to them where they utterly blasted Glasnow out of the gate. Don’t blame him.
The Rays had Charlie Morton come over from Houston in 2019, who must have spilled the beans on all this stuff to his new team. Maybe he was their professor of defense against the dark arts?
 

brandonchristensen

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yeah nothing is more "look at this photo of Nessie kissing Bigfoot" than the jersey-wrinkle analysis, circled as if it's obvious and 100% of people would agree on that conclusion.
I don’t know, I analyze frames for a living and to me - it looks like Josh Beckett has put on a few extra pounds.
 

singaporesoxfan

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In the comments he says he has never witnessed cheating that crossed the line like this before, and he has been around the block a bit.

Seems like what the Stros were doing really crossed the kind for a lot of opposing teams.
Buster Olney said something along these lines on his podcast today. Said that the Astros might have thought it wasn’t that bad since teams sometimes skirt the line, but for lots of teams learning what the Astros did was clearly way over the line.
 

Marciano490

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Cheating always sounds worse when you’re the visionary. Same thing happened with steroids - the USSR was much better at them so they were villainized here.

20 years ago using a computer to cheat would’ve sounded insane. Running a wire under your uniform does sound a little nuts, but just because it’s a further extension of a technology or practice.

This is just another Balco or HGH thing. Tactics always outpace defenses.
 

Hoya81

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Buster Olney said something along these lines on his podcast today. Said that the Astros might have thought it wasn’t that bad since teams sometimes skirt the line, but for lots of teams learning what the Astros did was clearly way over the line.
It's interesting to see how the views on stuff like this have changed so radically over time. It seems to me that stuff like spitballs and corked bats was always treated with a "boys will be boys" attitude and largely forgotten if and when someone was caught. Maybe its different now that getting an edge can result in someone getting a nine figure contract.
 

Plympton91

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It's interesting to see how the views on stuff like this have changed so radically over time. It seems to me that stuff like spitballs and corked bats was always treated with a "boys will be boys" attitude and largely forgotten if and when someone was caught. Maybe its different now that getting an edge can result in someone getting a nine figure contract.
The Astros set up a system that only they had access to.

When there was a spit ball or a corked bat, a lot of players probably were like, “Well, I bet somebody on my team did that at some point.”

But they all know they didn’t have a secret camera and special video monitor only available to the home team.

That’s what makes what the Astros did very different.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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It's interesting to see how the views on stuff like this have changed so radically over time. It seems to me that stuff like spitballs and corked bats was always treated with a "boys will be boys" attitude and largely forgotten if and when someone was caught. Maybe its different now that getting an edge can result in someone getting a nine figure contract.
I recall corked bats being taken fairly seriously in the 80's - 90's. My memory is fuzzy but I recall a above the fold infographic in the USA Today showing what a corked bat was and why it would have been advantageous after someone had been caught. That said, I'm sure if someone today had their bat explode revealing that it was corked it would be wall-to-wall coverage and outrage for at least 24 hours until the next squirrel grabbed social media's attention.
 

lexrageorge

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Corked bats were taken fairly seriously, and a total of 6 major leaguers were suspended. It's cheating, and it's against the rules. But it's at a different level. It's also one of questionable effectiveness.
 

normstalls

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Jack McDowell piling on. Accusing TLR of cheating back in the 80's


Sporting News Article

"I'm going to whistle-blow this thing now because I'm getting tired of this crap," McDowell told the station.

McDowell then said that La Russa, who managed the White Sox from 1979 to 1986, was the one who had the system installed. McDowell debuted with Chicago in 1987, the season after La Russa left
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Jack McDowell piling on. Accusing TLR of cheating back in the 80's


Sporting News Article
Pretty similar accusations to Houston’s scheme, with a Gatorade sign in place of a trash can:
Speaking to WFNZ-AM in Charlotte, where he serves as baseball coach for Queens University, McDowell said the White Sox had a camera zoomed in on opposing catchers and a light in an outfield Gatorade sign that could be controlled from the manager's office and would presumably let hitters know which pitches were coming.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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McDowell's first season with the White Sox was in '87, which was his major league debut. LaRussa was gone after the '86 season.

So either the White Sox kept LaRussa's system going for years, or McDowell is repeating hearsay.
 

lexrageorge

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Having hitters squint at a sign in the center field stands seems less effective than banging a trash can for some reason.
 

BaseballJones

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McDowell's first season with the White Sox was in '87, which was his major league debut. LaRussa was gone after the '86 season.

So either the White Sox kept LaRussa's system going for years, or McDowell is repeating hearsay.
Not necessarily total hearsay. From the article:

"Former MLB pitcher and 1993 AL Cy Young winner Jack McDowell alleged in a radio appearance Friday morning that the White Sox had an illegal sign-stealing operation at old Comiskey Park in the late 1980s, and that Hall of Fame manager Tony La Russa was the instigator of the scheme.

Speaking to WFNZ-AM in Charlotte, where he serves as baseball coach for Queens University, McDowell said the White Sox had a camera zoomed in on opposing catchers and a light in an outfield Gatorade sign that could be controlled from the manager's office and would presumably let hitters know which pitches were coming."

So it's entirely possible that the system was still in place when McDowell began his White Sox career. Maybe he asked about it and everyone was like, "Oh this is LaRussa's idea...he set it up." So yes possibly some hearsay (though possibly some eyewitness testimony, which is different than hearsay). But also possible that the system he allegedly installed was still in use when McDowell played.

Or if it wasn't in use, he could have talked to players who used that same system and attributed it to LaRussa. Again, eyewitness testimony as opposed to hearsay (IANAL but I think there's a difference).
 

jon abbey

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Did the USA have a national PEDs program for the olympics?
Meant as a rhetorical question but my friend was a 1988 Olympian (non-track) and had friends on the US track team. He told me later that all of them were doing it, keep in mind that was the year of Ben Johnson.