The AFCCG Post Game Thread: at Denver

[Adrian's Dome]

They don't need a deep threat. They need a big RELIABLE target for 3rd down and the red zone. Edelman's not that guy, and unfortunately, Gronk just can't be relied on at this point (although I'd love for him to prove me wrong.)
 
Let Dobson develop for the intermediate/long stuff. Get a pass catching TE or a big WR, rebuild the O-line, get a safety, and go back to work.

 

[Seels]

Whether Tom Brady is still a top ten QB is debatable, by most measures he wasn't this year. Still good enough to win with, but certainly can't do it on his own- he needs more weapons.

What the fuck

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

They don't need a deep threat. They need a big RELIABLE target for 3rd down and the red zone. Edelman's not that guy, and unfortunately, Gronk just can't be relied on at this point (although I'd love for him to prove me wrong.)
 
Let Dobson develop for the intermediate/long stuff. Get a pass catching TE or a big WR, rebuild the O-line, get a safety, and go back to work.

 
Nice to see you back here AD.

 

[twibnotes]

There's no goat obviously, but Brady just isn't quite enough anymore to make up for injuries elsewhere. Sad to watch, as it's the first time it's felt like the "end of an era."


You could argue he was good enough to overcome a lot of injuries and get them all the way to he final four. When was the last time a team went all the way without some legit weapons?

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Can we change the name of the forum to
"Wilfork might get restructured during the 2014 offseason"

ITS WELL KNOWN BY NOW

 

[RoyHobbs]

Well maybe it's time to legitimately start thinking about drafting a true eventual replacement? The long ball has never been more valuable than it is now with all of the DB restrictions.

 
I am at peace with this loss, I am not being reactionary, I am not advocating a change, I love TB and will rage and rant in verbal bar brawls with opposing fans about his superiority over pretty much all his peers, and I know it is message board suicide to even bring the subject up, but: isn't the time coming where the team is going to have to enter "twilight of his career" phase -- I mean, look at some of the posts here, which implicitly acknowledge his limitations.
 
"Intangible Brady": there's never been a greater QB in my mind.
"Tangible Brady": he can't throw deep, he can't elude the pressure which has been his & the team's playoff bane for a decade, the points made by H78 and others....

 

[Rook05]

The Broncos are a better team at this point in the year, and they definitely won this game more than the Pats lost it.

That said, the call on Hooman followed by the non-call on Welker will piss me off for years. Either call both or neither. That it ended Talib's season was just icing on the cake.

 

[Tony C]

Yeah there were chances, but they had to be really sharp to beat a better team today and weren't. This one didn't hurt as much as the last three years for me, they lost to a superior team this time.

 
oh, I agree.

 

[soxhop411]

Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin5m
Brady has a giant band-aid/pad on his right elbow. Not sure if I've seen that before

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin5m
Brady has a giant band-aid/pad on his right elbow. Not sure if I've seen that before
 

 
He had the flu that day

 

[Morning Woodhead]

 
He had the flu that day

He was bleeding for the elbow pretty good in the 4th.


As a side note, I'm interested in re-watching the game to see if the Broncos O-line was that good, or the Pats pass rush was that bad. They did not touch Manning all game.

 

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin5m
Brady has a giant band-aid/pad on his right elbow. Not sure if I've seen that before

I recommend that for people who plan to drink a lot in the near future - takes the stress off the olecranon bursa

 

[steveluck7]

They don't need a deep threat. They need a big RELIABLE target for 3rd down and the red zone. Edelman's not that guy, and unfortunately, Gronk just can't be relied on at this point (although I'd love for him to prove me wrong.)
 
Let Dobson develop for the intermediate/long stuff. Get a pass catching TE or a big WR, rebuild the O-line, get a safety, and go back to work.

Edleman, IMO, has shown to be that guy this year. He's just not a megatron-type weapon who can succeed as the only viable option in the passing game.
Get some size and speed (maybe one guy, maybe 2) and keep Edleman in his role.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

 
Nice to see you back here AD.

 
Heh...I had to cool off after the 4th and 2 sack. I can understand not converting the play, but seeing the line immediately get blown the fuck up there at the biggest point in the game set me off.

You know what disappointed me the most about this season? Adrian Wilson. I had decent expectations of the guy. Dennard and Ryan look like keepers, and I'm sure Talib can be brought back if he's wanted, but who plays with McCourty next year? That's probably the biggest question on D, or at least of the same importance as "does Vince come back as himself?"

 

[jsinger121]

Adrian Wilson was a washed up signing. Need to stop wasting money on over the hill guys.

 

[twibnotes]

Is there any chance they could sign jimmy graham? That would rule

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

If Collins and Logan Ryan can continue to build off their rookie years then the 2013 draft will be looked back at as among the franchises most succvessful

 

[twibnotes]

Rudy Pemberton wrote:

He wasn't very good this year. 11th in QBR, 11th in DVOA, 17th in passer rtg. In the range of a Matt Ryan or Tony Romo. He's 36. Do folks think he had a great year this year and / or is likely to be better next year? Part of it's surely a factor of not having much talent in terms of weapons, but I think it's fairly reasonable to not expect him to be in the upper echelon of QB's anymore.

He's a year removed from being an MVP candidate and had to break in a lot of new pieces. This was a very good offense in the second half with gronk. Not quite time to write off tb as a stud qb IMO

 

[lars10]

He wasn't very good this year. 11th in QBR, 11th in DVOA, 17th in passer rtg. In the range of a Matt Ryan or Tony Romo. He's 36. Do folks think he had a great year this year and / or is likely to be better next year? Part of it's surely a factor of not having much talent in terms of weapons, but I think it's fairly reasonable to not expect him to be in the upper echelon of QB's anymore.

I think that's a pretty freakin huge 'factor'.  You think Brady is toast if he has Thomas, Thomas, Decker, Welker, Moreno, Ball?
 
edit: or conversely Manning with Edelman, Amendola, Thompkins, Dobson, 1/2Gronk, Ridley, 1/2 Vereen?

 

[patinorange]

What do they do with Amendola? One target in the AFCCG?

He will be on the IR after the second exhibition game. Not to worry.

 

[bankshot1]

He wasn't very good this year. 11th in QBR, 11th in DVOA, 17th in passer rtg. In the range of a Matt Ryan or Tony Romo. He's 36. Do folks think he had a great year this year and / or is likely to be better next year? Part of it's surely a factor of not having much talent in terms of weapons, but I think it's fairly reasonable to not expect him to be in the upper echelon of QB's anymore.

 
 maybe if he has a stable corp of receivers Brady may scratch his way back to the middle of the pack.
Really?
 
If the Pats had a shitty QB this year do you think that team would be playing in the AFCCG?

 

[Morning Woodhead]

I want Boldin

 

[Stitch01]

11 in DVOA with these receivers and this track record is probably the work of a top ten QB. I don't think he's as good as in his prime, but he's still really good

 

[Untold]

It looks like Collins, Harmon, and Ryan were all really good picks this year. Do you disagree?

Wilson, the trade to GB that netted Baquette (sp), Harmon looks ok but didn't need to take him in the 3rd.
While impossible to account for the AH situation, we were playing with fire with our thin DL and WR situation. Instead, the fascination with DBs over the years seems to have cost this team.
I don't anticipate a change in drafting philosophy - after all, hard to argue with the success this team has had, championship losses notwithstanding - but I can't help but think had we taken different players in those spots (include Downling in that) we might have a 'little more' success. But as I originally posted, sour grapes on my part. 

 

[Bellhorn]

Heh...I had to cool off after the 4th and 2 sack. I can understand not converting the play, but seeing the line immediately get blown the fuck up there at the biggest point in the game set me off.
You know what disappointed me the most about this season? Adrian Wilson. I had decent expectations of the guy. Dennard and Ryan look like keepers, and I'm sure Talib can be brought back if he's wanted, but who plays with McCourty next year?

Harmon showed some promising signs, wouldn't you agree?

 

[twibnotes]

maybe if he has a stable corp of receivers Brady may scratch his way back to the middle of the pack.
Really?

If the Pats had a shitty QB this year do you think that team would be playing in the AFCCG?


Not to mention that tb was better than his aggregate #s considering he won a few games in the final possession this year

 

[Adrian's Dome]

Harmon showed some promising signs, wouldn't you agree?

 
Yes, but a starter?

 

[Stitch01]

I think Harmon has a good shot to beat out Gregory next year

 

[bankshot1]

Not to mention that tb was better than his aggregate #s considering he won a few games in the final possession this year

I think to kill Brady today is so misplaced for the season he really had.
 
Lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

[kenneycb]

Wilson, the trade to GB that netted Baquette (sp), Harmon looks ok but didn't need to take him in the 3rd.
While impossible to account for the AH situation, we were playing with fire with our thin DL and WR situation. Instead, the fascination with DBs over the years seems to have cost this team.
I don't anticipate a change in drafting philosophy - after all, hard to argue with the success this team has had, championship losses notwithstanding - but I can't help but think had we taken different players in those spots (include Downling in that) we might have a 'little more' success. But as I originally posted, sour grapes on my part. 

Dammit.  They didn't hit on all their draft picks unlike all the other teams in the league.

 

[Byrdbrain]

I think Harmon has a good shot to beat out Gregory next year

I assume Gregory is cut, saves a couple million on the cap.
Battle will be between Harmon and Wilson unless they bring someone else in.

 

[Bellhorn]

Yes, but a starter?

I mean, sure, we can't rake it for granted yet, but what more would you expect to see out of a first-year safety? We know he has the raw skills, and unlike Tavon Wilson, there was nothing this year to suggest that he is too football-IQ-challenged to learn the responsibilities of the position.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Wilson, the trade to GB that netted Baquette (sp), Harmon looks ok but didn't need to take him in the 3rd.
While impossible to account for the AH situation, we were playing with fire with our thin DL and WR situation. Instead, the fascination with DBs over the years seems to have cost this team.
I don't anticipate a change in drafting philosophy - after all, hard to argue with the success this team has had, championship losses notwithstanding - but I can't help but think had we taken different players in those spots (include Downling in that) we might have a 'little more' success. But as I originally posted, sour grapes on my part. 

This is dripping stupid

 

[Byrdbrain]

Wilson, the trade to GB that netted Baquette (sp), Harmon looks ok but didn't need to take him in the 3rd.
While impossible to account for the AH situation, we were playing with fire with our thin DL and WR situation. Instead, the fascination with DBs over the years seems to have cost this team.
I don't anticipate a change in drafting philosophy - after all, hard to argue with the success this team has had, championship losses notwithstanding - but I can't help but think had we taken different players in those spots (include Downling in that) we might have a 'little more' success. But as I originally posted, sour grapes on my part. 

So your point is if we had better players we would be better. Well I find it hard to poke holes in that logic.

 

[mauf]

If you have to pick a goat, it's the defensive front -- no pressure on Manning, and allowed too many successful run plays in key spots. Watching the SF-SEA game really highlights the difference between an elite defense and the depleted unit the Pats fielded today.

I'll continue to beat the Cordarrelle Patterson drum -- trading down instead of drafting him was a mistake. Brady missed a couple deep throws, but the inability of the receiving corps to get separation against a mediocre secondary was the single biggest factor in today's poor offensive performance, and there's little reason to expect better next season.

Good season. I didn't love today's game plan, but it likely didn't matter -- they were outmanned.

 

[bankshot1]

 
He's still a good QB, just not sure he's a top ten guy anymore, that's all, and he's past the point where he can make shitty receivers look good. Granted, there were some special circumstances this year.

Seriously I'd be hard-pressed to think of many QBs who could have taken his receiver corp and other offensive pieces and accomplished as much as he did this year. IMO judging Brady's year primarily from a statistical basis may lead to a false conclusion.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

If you have to pick a goat, it's the defensive front -- no pressure on Manning, and allowed too many successful run plays in key spots. Watching the SF-SEA game really highlights the difference between an elite defense and the depleted unit the Pats fielded today.

I'll continue to beat the Cordarrelle Patterson drum -- trading down instead of drafting him was a mistake. Brady missed a couple deep throws, but the inability of the receiving corps to get separation against a mediocre secondary was the single biggest factor in today's poor offensive performance, and there's little reason to expect better next season.

Good season. I didn't love today's game plan, but it likely didn't matter -- they were outmanned.

It's reasonable to expect one of Dobson, Boyce, thompkins to get better heading into year two. Especially Dobson I think. And gronks bad luck has to change at some point, right? Right?

They very much need a second TE that is at least half a threat to catch a pass.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

If you have to pick a goat, it's the defensive front -- no pressure on Manning, and allowed too many successful run plays in key spots. Watching the SF-SEA game really highlights the difference between an elite defense and the depleted unit the Pats fielded today.

I'll continue to beat the Cordarrelle Patterson drum -- trading down instead of drafting him was a mistake. Brady missed a couple deep throws, but the inability of the receiving corps to get separation against a mediocre secondary was the single biggest factor in today's poor offensive performance, and there's little reason to expect better next season.

Good season. I didn't love today's game plan, but it likely didn't matter -- they were outmanned.

 
What makes you think: (a) Patterson is a good wide receiver right now, much less a fit for the Patriots; or (b) Patterson is better than the Collins/Ryan/Boyce/Blount platter.
 
Patterson is a Sunday Ticket RedZone stud, but he's a really unrefined player.  You'd have a better argument for Keenan Allen later in the draft, actually.

 

[twibnotes]

bankshot1 wrote:

Seriously I'd be hard-pressed to think of many QBs who could have taken his receiver corp and other offensive pieces and accomplished as much as he did this year. IMO judging Brady's year primarily from a statistical basis may lead to a false conclusion.

Amen. It's awfully hard to name ten better guys. Actually, it's basically impossible.

Manning, Rodgers...hmmm

(And I'm just naming guys who are arguably better. Not even sure i'd prefer to have them)

 

[Boston Brawler]

I know this isn't a goat thread, but seriously Sweet Leaf, what the fuck?

 

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

 
He's still a good QB, just not sure he's a top ten guy anymore, that's all, and he's past the point where he can make shitty receivers look good. Granted, there were some special circumstances this year.

Ok, name the ten you'd rather have.

 

[The Mort Report]

Adrian Wilson was a washed up signing. Need to stop wasting money on over the hill guys.

 
Cant disagree more.  Just because one guy didn't pan out doesn't mean its not a good plan.  Some of the most important players from the 2004 championship team were considered washed up when the Pats got them (Harrison and Dillon).  Sure Bill hasn't really hit any flashy home runs with some of his early picks, or trades or FA signings, but he is a master at finding quality players in other team's trash or late in the draft.  His ability to find these players is the reason for the Pats sustained success.  You cant have 53 Pro Bowlers that are all 25 years old

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Can we just call Hernandez the goat and leave it at that. A receiving threat at TE would have helped this team immensely. They had no bigger targets today except a hobbled Dobson. It's also easy to point out that he is a shithead.

 

[crystalline]

They don't need a deep threat. They need a big RELIABLE target for 3rd down and the red zone. Edelman's not that guy, and unfortunately, Gronk just can't be relied on at this point (although I'd love for him to prove me wrong.)
 
Let Dobson develop for the intermediate/long stuff. Get a pass catching TE or a big WR, rebuild the O-line, get a safety, and go back to work.

 
I thought the pass rush was a problem today.  I know Manning gets rid of the ball quickly, so perhaps they don't need a Robert Mathis type, maybe they need a Julius Peppers type who can move the pocket forward.  Is that Wilfork?  He's a beast who can clog two gaps in the run game, but he usually doesn't get a lot of pass rush push. 
 
I think Manning got hit 0 times today.  That was a problem.  Give the line credit for stopping the run, though; when the game was competitive they stopped a lot of runs for losses.
 

 
I am at peace with this loss, I am not being reactionary, I am not advocating a change, I love TB and will rage and rant in verbal bar brawls with opposing fans about his superiority over pretty much all his peers, and I know it is message board suicide to even bring the subject up, but: isn't the time coming where the team is going to have to enter "twilight of his career" phase -- I mean, look at some of the posts here, which implicitly acknowledge his limitations.
 
"Intangible Brady": there's never been a greater QB in my mind.
"Tangible Brady": he can't throw deep, he can't elude the pressure which has been his & the team's playoff bane for a decade, the points made by H78 and others....

 
Pocket passers like TB and Manning can't elude much more than you saw today.  It's on their lines and their hot reads to keep them clean. 
Brady's problems today, I thought: (1) missed two HUGE deep balls that he could have dropped in for big gains.  Both missed long, one missed outside as well.  (2) Slight inaccuracy on receptions, failing to hit guys in stride, the ball to Dobson in the first that was too high over the middle - very unusual for Brady. 
The inaccuracy is the difference between a top 3 (usual "Tom Brady" level) and a top 10 QB (e.g. Drew Brees this year: great, but not the best) and I'm willing to write it off to a bad day.  Next year could be big, though he is getting old and normal age-related stuff might come down on him.
 
And overall Brady had a remarkable season given his weapons.  Who would you take over him for one year next year (i.e. ignoring age)?  Rodgers, Manning, then maybe Wilson are the only ones you can make a case for. 
 

 
Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin5m
Brady has a giant band-aid/pad on his right elbow. Not sure if I've seen that before
 

 
He scraped it up when he fell on the ball during a sack in the 3rd; he landed on his elbow.  It was the play where DRC collided with a lineman and both hit Brady but did not fall on him.  After that the elbow was scraped and bleeding.
 
edit: also polite request: can we not quote the trolls please? 

 

[crystalline]

Also can we get some love from Brady for BREAKING A TACKLE and scoring a TD?  

 

[Harry Hooper]

It's reasonable to expect one of Dobson, Boyce, thompkins to get better heading into year two. Especially Dobson I think. And gronks bad luck has to change at some point, right? Right?

They very much need a second TE that is at least half a threat to catch a pass.

 
 
Yeah, I suggested in the pre-game thread lining up Vereen as a TE today. With Blount or Ridley in the backfield with Vereen also on the field, it would have made the Denver D more often guard against both the run and the pass at the same time.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Can we just call Hernandez the goat and leave it at that. A receiving threat at TE would have helped this team immensely. They had no bigger targets today except a hobbled Dobson. It's also easy to point out that he is a shithead.

At least this offseason can't suck worse than last year's.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

 
 
Yeah, I suggested in the pre-game thread lining up Vereen as a TE today. With Blount or Ridley in the backfield with Vereen also on the field, it would have made the Denver D more often guard against both the run and the pass at the same time.

 
Oh, you were serious?
 
Vereen lining up in-line would've been a joke - he'd be fucking beaten to shit.  You don't necessarily need Gronk at the spot, but you need a guy who can physically man that position.  
 
It's not so much the physical placement of the player as much as it is who you can get the defense to stick on him on a given play.  It'd be a one-play gimmick, at best.

 

[RedOctober3829]

They got beaten by a better team today.  They couldn't run the ball which stalled drives from the start.  They couldn't complete 3rd downs early so the defense is made to play more plays.  Denver made a lot of plays on 3rd down offensively to sustain drives and keep the NE defense on the field.  Talib's injury forced other players into positions where they aren't as successful.
 
A couple key plays to me:
--The holding call in the 1st quarter that took them out of FG range. 
--2nd and 20 for Denver that got a 1st down that eventually led to a Denver FG. 
 
I can't be mad with the result of this season.  They played most of the season without their All-Pro DT, another starting DT, All-Pro TE, starting  All-Pro MLB, losing Talib, Vereen, and Amendola for a stretch, etc.  I look at this offseason as they will add 4 or 5 quality free agents for next year as they played most of the season without Wilfork, Gronk, Mayo, etc.  Major decision on Talib?  Do you sign him?  They have to pay Amendola.
 
Draft a big-time TE threat.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Tebow could throw a good deep ball, just saying.

(And he could have filled in a TE . )