The 2nd Season - 2019 Playoff Thread

Kliq

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In his book, Simmons talks about a special wing in the hall of fame for role players who had a lot of success on great teams and won multiple titles. They might not be quite hall of fame players, but they played a critical role for memorable teams and deserve some form of enshrinement. Would be a home for Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Vinnie Johnson, Michael Cooper, Bruce Bowen, Ron Harper, etc.
 

Kliq

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I love the Kirilenko comp for this exercise and he could have played a similar role as Iggy had he landed in the right situation post-30.
Ron Harper is the best comp I have heard; put up good numbers for okay teams early in his career, then caught on with a legendary team after he turned 30 and was a very good role player, defense-first guy who ended up with five rings.
 

coremiller

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The problem with Basketball HoF is that the standard is really low. Recent inductees include Jack Sikma, Bobby Jones, Maurice Cheeks, Yao Ming, Mitch Richmond, Jamaal Wilkes. How many of them were better than Iguodala?
 

cheech13

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In his book, Simmons talks about a special wing in the hall of fame for role players who had a lot of success on great teams and won multiple titles. They might not be quite hall of fame players, but they played a critical role for memorable teams and deserve some form of enshrinement. Would be a home for Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Vinnie Johnson, Michael Cooper, Bruce Bowen, Ron Harper, etc.
Career Win Shares

Horry 66.3
Fisher 62.3
Johnson 50.8
Cooper 52.5
Bowen 42.9
Harper 65.8

Iggy 96.4 (and counting)

The reason why Igoudala is such an interesting test case is that not only was he a key role player on championship teams but he was also really good for a really long time. He's got the career numbers that those other role payers just don't have.There isn't a really good historical comp. The best contemporary example is probably Vince Carter, who had the better counting stats early on, but far less success as a veteran role player.
 

Sam Ray Not

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The problem with Basketball HoF is that the standard is really low. Recent inductees include Jack Sikma, Bobby Jones, Maurice Cheeks, Yao Ming, Mitch Richmond, Jamaal Wilkes. How many of them were better than Iguodala?
Mitch Richmond seems like the closest comp of that "low bar" group, since they played similar positions in similar eras. He sets possibly the lowest bar in the Hall — Bill Simmons name-checks him often in that regard, while chuckling — but I see next to zero case for Richmond over Iguodala in a hall of FAME.

Who's the better passer, floor general, rebounder, defender, overall player? Andre.
Which of the two would 30 of 30 GMs draft at age 21 if they wanted to build a winning team? Andre.
Who's played more minutes in the regular season? Andre.
Who's played more minutes in the playoffs? Andre, by a mile.
Who has more iconic/memorable moments (big playoff moments, dunk contests, dunks, etc.)? Andre, by a mile.
Who's going to more FAMOUS ten years from now? Andre, by a mile.

I agree with teddykgb that "his case isn't even borderline" (as long as Richmond is in).
 
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cheech13

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I picked two examples that were obviously better than Iguodala but still not guaranteed enshrinement (Bosh, I grant).

Closer comparison might be AK47 although he mostly played for shit teams.
Kirilenko is fascinating player for this discussion. He was awesome through his age-29 season and every bit the player that Iggy and Shawn Marion were, but then he had that weird missed season where he went to Russia. He then came back in a diminished state and was out of the league in two years. He should have carved out a role on a championship contender in his 30s. Can you imagine him as the do-all, multi-positional defender and role player on the Spurs or Cavs?
 
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Kliq

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Career Win Shares

Horry 66.3
Fisher 62.3
Johnson 50.8
Cooper 52.5
Bowen 42.9
Harper 65.8

Iggy 96.4 (and counting)

The reason why Igoudala is such an interesting test case is that not only was he a key role player on championship teams but he was also really good for a really long time. He's got the career numbers that those other role payers just don't have.There isn't a really good historical comp. The best contemporary example is probably Vince Carter, who had the better counting stats early on, but far less success as a veteran role player.
I don't disagree that Iguodala is better than those players; just that being a good role player for a team that won multiple championships maybe should be recognized without making them a full-blown HOF player.

Also look at Harper's career numbers again; her certainly has the numbers to match Iguodala.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Euclis20

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This place is gonna blow up when Joe Johnson (7x all star, 20k+ points) makes the HOF.

Here's a rando stat for the Andre HOF portfolio. I don't know how to do AST/TOV ratio on BB-Ref's Player Season Finder, but there are 30 seasons in NBA history in which a player 6'-6" or above put up more than 4.5 assists and fewer than 2.0 turnovers per 36 minutes on more than 1500 minutes played. Six of them are Andre Iguodala. The only other player who appears more than twice is Brandon Roy (3x).
That's not one rando stat, that's like 4 random stats smashed together. Numbers, if tortured enough, will tell you anything.
 

cheech13

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This place is gonna blow up when Joe Johnson (7x all star, 20k+ points) makes the HOF.



That's not one rando stat, that's like 4 random stats smashed together. Numbers, if tortured enough, will tell you anything.
Oh yeah, that'll make people's heads explode, but Basketball-reference has him at 50.6% in their Hall of Fame Probability monitor. That's a better than 50/50 chance for a guy who was never the best player on his team and never made an NBA finals. He's a pure counting stats case.

Some of the other fun ones: Dwight Howard, Carmelo, Vince Carter, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin and Lamarcus Aldridge.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Oh yeah, that'll make people's heads explode, but Basketball-reference has him at 50.6% in their Hall of Fame Probability monitor. That's a better than 50/50 chance for a guy who was never the best player on his team and never made an NBA finals. He's a pure counting stats case.

Some of the other fun ones: Dwight Howard, Carmelo, Vince Carter, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin and Lamarcus Aldridge.
The first three shouldn't even be in the conversation as they are stone cold locks. Griffin is close and only injuries would derail him...….Love and Aldridge are the two who I feel will end up just short.

The problem with Basketball HoF is that the standard is really low. Recent inductees include Jack Sikma, Bobby Jones, Maurice Cheeks, Yao Ming, Mitch Richmond, Jamaal Wilkes. How many of them were better than Iguodala?
Remember this is the BASKETBALL HOF and not the NBA HOF......Yao Ming is literally the kingpin of China's growth in this game.
 

Kliq

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I think Love is going to get in as long as he plays a few more years of solid basketball. 2x All-NBA, 5x All Star, career 18-11 on solid shooting; also great at underappreciated things like outlet passing and screen setting. Made the finals 3x (injured for a fourth) and won a ring and had a memorable moment in crunch time (lockdown D on Steph after everyone made jokes about how slow he was on switches). Was LeBron's teammate for years and took a bunch of shit from everyone and still remained consistent.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Mitch Richmond seems like the closest comp of that "low bar" group, since they played similar positions in similar eras. He sets possibly the lowest bar in the Hall — Bill Simmons name-checks him often in that regard, while chuckling — but I see next to zero case for Richmond over Iguodala in a hall of FAME.

Who's the better passer, floor general, rebounder, defender, overall player? Andre.
Which of the two would 30 of 30 GMs draft at age 21 if they wanted to build a winning team? Andre.
Who's played more minutes in the regular season? Andre.
Who's played more minutes in the playoffs? Andre, by a mile.
Who has more iconic/memorable moments (big playoff moments, dunk contests, dunks, etc.)? Andre, by a mile.
Who's going to more FAMOUS ten years from now? Andre, by a mile.

I agree with teddykgb that "his case isn't even borderline" (as long as Richmond is in).
Richmond avg over 22 ppg his first 10 years in the league while being a good passer and excellent defender. He was legit for sure. Are there any 5x All-NBA players who aren't in the Hall? I don't know the answer but I'd be surprised if there were.
 

Kliq

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KC Jones is the worst NBA player in the HOF; averaged 7-3-4 for his career and shot 37 percent. Was a good defensive guard but also was the third best defender at best on his team, behind Russell and Satch Sanders.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Numbers, if tortured enough, will tell you anything.
Haha, yeah, it was a little tortured. Put slightly more simply: if you filter out the pipsqueaks (under 6'-5"), Andre has ranked #1, #3, #1, #2, #1, and #2 in the NBA in assist-turnover ratio over the last six seasons (with similar rankings in the playoffs when you filter for minutes played).

YMMV, but I don't find that totally meaningless, either in general terms or as a factor in how/why his teams have historically kicked ass in that same timeframe.

One of the biggest sea-changes in the Warriors rise — before the arrival of Kerr and KD — was when they effectively flipped Jarrett Jack and Carl Landry (two very solid NBA players at that time) for Iguodala. With no other major changes, they instantly went from +1.32 SRS to +5.15, and #16 in defensive rating to #1. The Nuggets meanwhile plummeted from +5.37 SRS to -1.40 when he left them.
 
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InstaFace

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Funniest comment there is about Bill Russell as player-coach:

[Russell] coached the Kings after he retired too. Funniest clip on YouTube is Kenny Smith talking about how Bill Russell would make him sit next to him on the team bus so he wouldn’t “end up like those other losers” if I recall correctly a player said something like “well trade me then” and bill was like “you think I ain’t been trying, nobody wants a bunch of losers, I’m trying to trade you all.”
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ton of late money pouring in on Toronto and the Under. Line now GS -2.5 and 211.

I won with the Over in G1, passed altogether in G2, and as I discussed pre-G1 I expect the series to become more of a halfcourt grind as the series progresses.

I didn't touch the side and will root for my Raptors series wager as well as tonights play of UNDER 213.5. I was tempted to fade the steam and play the Warriors as this is such a great set up for them but bailed at last second. Gun to head I say GS wins tonight and Tor returns the favor to tie is up 2-2.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Ton of late money pouring in on Toronto and the Under. Line now GS -2.5 and 211.

I won with the Over in G1, passed altogether in G2, and as I discussed pre-G1 I expect the series to become more of a halfcourt grind as the series progresses.

I didn't touch the side and will root for my Raptors series wager as well as tonights play of UNDER 213.5. I was tempted to fade the steam and play the Warriors as this is such a great set up for them but bailed at last second. Gun to head I say GS wins tonight and Tor returns the favor to tie is up 2-2.
I've hit the Over twice in the series already, and hit the Kawhi over on rebounds in the last game. As soon as they announced Klay was out, and Durant wouldn't play, I buried the Steph Curry over 31.5 points tonight. if he doesn't score 40, they can't win, so he's going to at least try.
 

Deathofthebambino

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GS's defense looks really out of sorts without Klay. This might not even be a game unless Curry goes supernova..
 

Reverend

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And on the flip side, they can double Curry with impunity.

Not sure what GS can do.
 

djbayko

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And on the flip side, they can double Curry with impunity.

Not sure what GS can do.
Curry will run a Ray Allen-like marathon trying to get his 40 tonight.

The closing line was ridiculous and definitely shaded by the aura of GSW’s invincibility at home. They are underdogs tonight and I’m rooting for them to pull it out somehow.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I'll go way out on a limb and say if Toronto can't win this one they aren't going to win the series :)
 

Deathofthebambino

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17 points, 6 rebounds and 3 assists for Curry in the 1st quarter. If I'm not mistaken, he already hit the over on rebounds, needs 2 assists to hit that one, and 15 points.
 

Reverend

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Curry will run a Ray Allen-like marathon trying to get his 40 tonight.

The closing line was ridiculous and definitely shaded by the aura of GSW’s invincibility at home. They are underdogs tonight and I’m rooting for them to pull it out somehow.
Curry’s currently the only member of the team with more than 3 points.

So I can see that.
 

BaseballJones

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How was that not called a carry. That's as blatant as it gets. Even Van Gundy was like....uh, ok, I guess anything goes tonight.

If they're not going to call that, honestly, why even bother having rules governing ball-handling?
 

DJnVa

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The way this series is playing out is why it's so stupid when I hear folks talk about "No one can beat Team X" or whatever. Shit happens. And as of now, Toronto is taking advantage of it.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I honestly believe Curry shooting from 30 feet on every possession would be a better offense than anyone else not named Quinn Cook shooting for them, from anywhere.
 

JCizzle

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That charge call was pure fucking trash. Clear block on Draymond. Refs need to get their shit together.
 

Reverend

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The announcers discussing if it’s great Toronto D or a lack of GS shooting has a real tastes great less feeling kinda flavor to it.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I honestly believe Curry shooting from 30 feet on every possession would be a better offense than anyone else not named Quinn Cook shooting for them, from anywhere.
Offense isn’t the Warriors problem.....their problem is defensively as the Raptors are trending over 150 points.

Edit: 3 1/2 minutes later the Raptors still haven’t scored lol.
 
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coremiller

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I feel like Toronto is going to regret letting the Warriors hang around within striking distance when they had them on the ropes for most of that half.