The 2nd Season - 2019 Playoff Thread

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The way this season ended strongly suggests that they will run it back. KD finally became a true Warrior and the organization loves the guy. Klay is an icon. Its clearly suboptimal if both are out for most of next season but they can still make the playoffs and if either/both get healthy beforehand they are in a position to make noise next year.

As for Steph trying to pull a Harden, it is unlikely to happen. They are two totally different players playing in different systems. Plus, as much as he tries, Steph cannot seem to master Harden's step back move, especially when trying to draw contact with it.
 
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jon abbey

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The Shaq/Kobe Lakers don't really compare to the these Warriors by measures like 538's ELO and like BB-Ref's SRS (or even just W-L, where the Warriors have the best one-year, three-year, four-year, and five-year records of all time). If we're talking 5-6-year spans in the modern era, I think it's basically (1) Jordan Bulls (2) these Warriors.
Yeah, I can get behind that, I am guessing you have put about a million times more thought into this topic than I have. :)
 

Apisith

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Yeah, I think they're the best team ever. I think the '17 and '18 Warriors would have beaten every team in history in the playoffs. They were that deep, that good.
 

Apisith

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Now Morey needs to convince our cheap-ass owner to go into the luxury tax for the next 2 years because we really have a shot at this now.
 

lovegtm

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Now Morey needs to convince our cheap-ass owner to go into the luxury tax for the next 2 years because we really have a shot at this now.
I forgot about that aspect. This injury run HAS to change the Rockets' outlook. Doesn't it also make trading Capela less urgent? There's no team left that can really run him off the floor now.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, I think they're the best team ever. I think the '17 and '18 Warriors would have beaten every team in history in the playoffs. They were that deep, that good.
Yup. I think you do have to separate the Durant teams from the '15 and '16 teams. Those two were more like the Seven Seconds or Less Suns with better luck. (I mean that with a lot of respect: those Suns teams were fucking good and had the opposite of good luck).
 

reggiecleveland

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Let's get back to the team that won. Though the narrative will be they won because of injury, some credit is due.

The Toronto media has been full on Shank/curse mode for years. Lowry, and Nurse were getting killed the last few days. Lowry came out and played great.

There were some terrible calls they overcame, Draymond's tip in, Curry tripping over himself, Boogie charge,

KL is hurting

Vanvleet was last guy to make roster

Iggy did a great job on Kawhi and other guys stepped up.
 

coremiller

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Yup. I think you do have to separate the Durant teams from the '15 and '16 teams. Those two were more like the Seven Seconds or Less Suns with better luck. (I mean that with a lot of respect: those Suns teams were fucking good and had the opposite of good luck).
The Durant teams were clearly better, but the 15/16 teams were much better than the 2004-07 Suns. Those Warriors were a very good defensive team; the Suns never were.
 

coremiller

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Yeah, I think they're the best team ever. I think the '17 and '18 Warriors would have beaten every team in history in the playoffs. They were that deep, that good.
It depends on under which set of rules. The change in illegal defense rules was huge, and has lead to a big difference in team construction. You can't really directly compare teams before and after.
 

The Social Chair

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The only finals team the Bulls played that could make the finals today would be the 92 Blazers team. The talent depth in the 90s wasn't very good.
 

reggiecleveland

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It depends on under which set of rules. The change in illegal defense rules was huge, and has lead to a big difference in team construction. You can't really directly compare teams before and after.
This is exactly the thing, and why recency bias is a big problem.
With 80s rules and reffing the Magic?Kareem Lakers and Bird Celtics would crush the Warriors, with 90s handchecking and off the ball holding Curry may not even be a great player, which is one reason that era had to change the rules. The bad boys, and Riley's Knicks were the logical conclusion to how reffing was being handled.

As much as I hate to say it the 90s Bulls, Shaq Lakers are probably best equipped to play in multiple eras.
 

the moops

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I know folks will never agree, but today's players are just too damn fast and long and strong and are ridiculous shooters and athletes. See could be said in the 80's when compared to the 50's. Ever future generation will.be even better.
 

Devizier

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It depends on under which set of rules. The change in illegal defense rules was huge, and has lead to a big difference in team construction. You can't really directly compare teams before and after.
True but the rules changes were in 2001. It did take a few years for the league to adapt, however.
 

reggiecleveland

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I know folks will never agree, but today's players are just too damn fast and long and strong and are ridiculous shooters and athletes. See could be said in the 80's when compared to the 50's. Ever future generation will.be even better.
But the skills of playing in traffic, post moves, are far worse, because they have no value. The elimination of the hand check, 1st on the ball then off the ball has been far more significant than the rule changes.
 

lexrageorge

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It is correct that the Jordan Bulls teams were really great and deserve to be in the same discussion as these latest Warrior teams.

However, the league was at a nadir in terms of its talent level compared to today and the style of game was a rough slog and painful to watch.
 

Devizier

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The only finals team the Bulls played that could make the finals today would be the 92 Blazers team. The talent depth in the 90s wasn't very good.
The Sonics and Jazz from the second run were very good. People remember the topline talent but guys like Hawkins and Schrempf (for the Sonics) and Hornacek and Russell (for the Jazz) were outstanding supporting players. It's just that the Bulls were too damned stacked, as tends to be the case when you have the best and arguably second best players in the league.
 

nolasoxfan

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I’ve seen dudes tear an ACL before. They know it but can’t really feel it, until they try to change directions on said leg. It’s a weird ass injury.
Very true. I tore my ACL in 1994, playing soccer on Tulane U's quad. I screamed like a banshee when the ACL tore, but only because my brain was telling me that my knee and lower leg were doing things they weren't supposed to do; there was no pain. Ref & ambulance crew carried me off the pitch, but within 5 minutes I told them I wanted back in the game (it was the University championship afterall!). I stood up to go back on the pitch and promptly fell flat on my face--leg wobbled and caved in like a wet piece of spaghetti. Again, no pain.
Moral to my personal ditty: not surprised KT told Kerr that he wanted back in. It is a weird ass injury, indeed.
 

BaseballJones

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It is correct that the Jordan Bulls teams were really great and deserve to be in the same discussion as these latest Warrior teams.

However, the league was at a nadir in terms of its talent level compared to today and the style of game was a rough slog and painful to watch.
I’d love to see a series in which Jordan and Kawhi go head to head for seven games. 90s rules, today’s rules, playground rules, doesn’t matter. It would be epic.
 

ElUno20

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I hate the cross era comparison talk. The game is like night and day to what it was even 5 years ago. Yeah the warriors had a great run and who could keep up with them? But are they playing this current soft ass NBA rules or 90s and 2000s ball? It makes a difference.

So yeah it's hard to imagine anyone keeping up with them but it goes both ways. Even going back to the laker run, what human exist in the last 5 years on the warriors who would have a snowball's chance in hell at guarding a prime Shaq? Not fat ass Celtics/Suns/Cavs Shaq, prime Shaq.
 

lars10

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Ballard: "Just a two minute rest, I'll be ready". That's what Klay told Kerr. With a torn ACL.
as someone else mentioned.. adrenaline kicks in once the tear happens. My sister tore both of hers in separate incidents.. the pain at first is extremely intense, but after that goes away you can walk on it. People often think they’re ok and then go on to do more damage. Kerr was obviously very wary after KD..which is a good thing, because imagine Klay trying to play on it and maybe tearing cartilage and or his mcl (if he didn’t already).
 

lars10

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Yeah, I think they're the best team ever. I think the '17 and '18 Warriors would have beaten every team in history in the playoffs. They were that deep, that good.
What rules are they playing under? Because if they’re allowed to play them physical and hand check..then no imo.
 

lars10

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I hate the cross era comparison talk. The game is like night and day to what it was even 5 years ago. Yeah the warriors had a great run and who could keep up with them? But are they playing this current soft ass NBA rules or 90s and 2000s ball? It makes a difference.

So yeah it's hard to imagine anyone keeping up with them but it goes both ways. Even going back to the laker run, what human exist in the last 5 years on the warriors who would have a snowball's chance in hell at guarding a prime Shaq? Not fat ass Celtics/Suns/Cavs Shaq, prime Shaq.
Who even guards Kobe? And if you’re talking bulls.. Jordan/Pippen.. I think Pippen could guard Durant... Jordan on klay? Kerr or Armstrong on Curry? It’s interesting to think about.
 

Sam Ray Not

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The "hard-ass" 1990s-2000s an enduring meme that I think could stand to be re-examined. When I re-watch clips and games from that era, my general sense is that defense overall was significantly softer, slower, and less physical than it is today. Overall, players then just weren't as skilled, big, athletic, or physical then as they are today.

I agree that cross-era comparison talk is fun but silly, which is why I like metrics like ELO which try to rate teams relative to their era.
 

Kliq

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as someone else mentioned.. adrenaline kicks in once the tear happens. My sister tore both of hers in separate incidents.. the pain at first is extremely intense, but after that goes away you can walk on it. People often think they’re ok and then go on to do more damage. Kerr was obviously very wary after KD..which is a good thing, because imagine Klay trying to play on it and maybe tearing cartilage and or his mcl (if he didn’t already).
I thought it was pretty interesting that after he shot his free throws Klay was running around and looked like he could possibly play; but a few minutes later they showed him on crutches taking two inch steps down the hallway.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The "hard-ass" 1990s-2000s an enduring meme that I think could stand to be re-examined. When I re-watch clips and games from that era, my general sense is that defense overall was significantly softer, slower, and less physical than it is today. Overall, players then just weren't as skilled, big, athletic, or physical then as they are today.

I agree that cross-era comparison talk is fun but silly, which is why I like metrics like ELO which try to rate teams relative to their era.
It was slower because every time someone tried to cut, they were either being held, err I mean hand-checked, or they were running into a shoulder or a hip or something else. Games were a beating and players had to be really strong to survive, so everyone was bulked up. I mean look at that Knicks team - Mason and Oakley and Ewing and Starks and even Anthony - they were all really physical. I love Steph but those backdoor cuts and floaters in the lane he does would have ended up in foul shots and I don't think he would have been able to last long given the pounding.

Remember the motto of the Pistons? They can't call a foul on every play, so let's commit three or four and see what happens.

But yes, the basketball was unwatchable. And while the current brand of basketball is much more entertaining, I am beginning to wonder how long that is going to last given that the game seems to be slowly morphing into a three-point shooting contest.
 

radsoxfan

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as someone else mentioned.. adrenaline kicks in once the tear happens. My sister tore both of hers in separate incidents.. the pain at first is extremely intense, but after that goes away you can walk on it. People often think they’re ok and then go on to do more damage. Kerr was obviously very wary after KD..which is a good thing, because imagine Klay trying to play on it and maybe tearing cartilage and or his mcl (if he didn’t already).

MCL I’m sure already at least partially, if not fully torn, based on that video.

Even more importantly, not good to be playing in the NBA finals on an unstable knee. Good way to cause or worsen a meniscal tear or cartilage defect, and those might have life long consequences.

I’m sure once the docs got their hands on his knee and felt the anterior instability there was nothing Klay could say to get back out there.
 

Kliq

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Eh, the "hard-ass" 1990s-2000s an enduring meme that I think could stand to be re-examined. When I re-watch clips and games from that era, my general sense is that defense overall was significantly softer, slower, and less physical than it is today. Overall, players then just weren't as skilled, big, athletic, or physical then as they are today.

I agree that cross-era comparison talk is fun but silly, which is why I like metrics like ELO which try to rate teams relative to their era.
The 90s and 2000s definitely had hard, physical defense, even if today the athletes are a bit better and the schemes are probably more refined. You can just look at the average ppg and the shooting percentages and see that it was more difficult to score. Any era before that, from the 80s on back, is really overrated when it comes to how tough the defense was. Yeah, you could get away with harder fouls and there were more fights, but often times teams didn't try that hard on defense unless it was crunch time and guys were playing a million minutes with less rest in between games. Again, you can look at the average ppg and see it was easier to score back then.

The thing about the Warriors is that during their first championship season, they really surprised a lot of teams with the amount of three point shots they were taking (and making) and how small they were willing to go. Teams were caught off-guard when Golden State would shoot a three pointer in transition instead of going in for a layup, or playing Draymond at center. Over the last five years, teams have adjusted to that style of play and mimicked it, so it isn't revolutionary anymore; all teams basically are shooting threes in transition and have small-ball lineups that prioritize spacing. Golden State's advantage over the last five years was almost as much stylistic as it was talent. Over time that style advantaged waned.

When comparing teams from other eras, they would be shocked to play Golden State. Depending on the matchup, it would be different; the 80s Celtics, 90s Bulls and 2000s Lakers often lived on contested mid-range jumpers, a shot that we have now learned isn't as efficient when you have three-point shooting. Could they get away with playing Draymond at center? Against the Bulls maybe, I don't think Bill Wennington could really take advantage of that matchup; but they probably couldn't against Shaq or Kareem.

I think a more interesting question would be if you put those classic teams in a time machine and had them fully comfortable playing the 2019 style of basketball. Curry takes 3x as many threes as Bird ever did, what if he shot as many threes as Curry, and there was more spacing for him to shoot? What if a solid mid-range guy like McHale developed a three point shot? Do we really think Jordan wouldn't have turned into a great 3 point shooter?
 

Sam Ray Not

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With 80s rules and reffing the Magic?Kareem Lakers and Bird Celtics would crush the Warriors,
Alternatively: the '80s also had a three point line; teams just didn't know how to exploit it or defend it like they do today. And yet: 3 points in the '80s was still 150% of 2 points. Again, a silly convo, but I suspect those '80s Lakers and Celtics teams might leave Steph, Klay and KD largely unguarded behind the arc and lose every game by 30-40, even with '80s rules and reffing.

To throw out one example: Magic was a 6'-9" point forward who was called a "guard" in those days because (1) he ran the offense and (2) defensively, you could live with putting him on smaller, quicker perimeter shooters cos those guys didn't dominate the game from beyond the arc like they can today. Could you live with Magic guarding Steph/Klay today, especially with old man Kareem standing like a statue in the paint? Unless you gave him months/years of intense training guarding the three, my sense is that Steph + Klay might drop 80+ a game between them. (Are months of training Magic, Kareem et al. to guard the perimeter allowed? Questions like this are why this game is silly...)

Assuming we're not allowing any special extra training, Pippen + Jordan (along with Rodman, Harper, Kukoc) seem much better suited than the 80s Lakers/Celtics to the switching perimeter defense needed to beat the 2014-19 Warriors. But again, who the heck knows...
 

DrewDawg

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The Alameda County Sheriff’s Office confirmed Friday morning it is pursuing a misdemeanor complaint against Toronto Raptors president Masai Ujiri for battery of a police officer after an altercation following Game 6 of the NBA Finals on Thursday night, a spokesman for the department told USA TODAY Sports.
Video at link.

EDIT: Looks like just the aftermath on video. I don't know, the officer involved then let him go on the court, so I'm not sure this "altercation" really rises to the level it seems to be.
 

DrewDawg

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Also, Lakers are now title favorites for next season:


Westgate 2020 title odds:
Lakers: 9/2
Bucks 6-1
Clippers 6-1 (!!!!)
Rockets 8-1
Raptors 10-1
Celtics 12-1
Sixers 12-1
Warriors 14-1
Nuggets 16-1
Thunder 16-1
Knicks 20-1
Nets 25-1


A whole lot of stuff baked in there---Lakers, Celtics, Knicks (?), Nets are obviously all based on certain trades/signings, but there's some overlap.

Only the Lakers OR the Celtics will get AD. The Raptors or Clippers numbers hinge on Kawhi. The Knicks and Nets hinge (likely) on Kyrie and another FA.
 

lovegtm

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Also, Lakers are now title favorites for next season:


Westgate 2020 title odds:
Lakers: 9/2
Bucks 6-1
Clippers 6-1 (!!!!)
Rockets 8-1
Raptors 10-1
Celtics 12-1
Sixers 12-1
Warriors 14-1
Nuggets 16-1
Thunder 16-1
Knicks 20-1
Nets 25-1


A whole lot of stuff baked in there---Lakers, Celtics, Knicks (?), Nets are obviously all based on certain trades/signings, but there's some overlap.

Only the Lakers OR the Celtics will get AD. The Raptors or Clippers numbers hinge on Kawhi. The Knicks and Nets hinge (likely) on Kyrie and another FA.
The Knicks seem high to me, just based on the fact that aside from Kyrie, KD was the only other guy linked there, and they don't have anywhere near the Nets core. I guess it's factoring in the possibility of Billy King'ing it for AD, but that just seems like there would be literally nothing left on the roster at that point.
 

reggiecleveland

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Alternatively: the '80s also had a three point line; teams just didn't know how to exploit it or defend it like they do today. And yet: 3 points in the '80s was still 150% of 2 points. Again, a silly convo, but I suspect those '80s Lakers and Celtics teams might leave Steph, Klay and KD largely unguarded behind the arc and lose every game by 30-40, even with '80s rules and reffing.

To throw out one example: Magic was a 6'-9" point forward who was called a "guard" in those days because (1) he ran the offense and (2) defensively, you could live with putting him on smaller, quicker perimeter shooters cos those guys didn't dominate the game from beyond the arc like they can today. Could you live with Magic guarding Steph/Klay today, especially with old man Kareem standing like a statue in the paint? Unless you gave him months/years of intense training guarding the three, my sense is that Steph + Klay might drop 80+ a game between them. (Are months of training Magic, Kareem et al. to guard the perimeter allowed? Questions like this are why this game is silly...)

Assuming we're not allowing any special extra training, Pippen + Jordan (along with Rodman, Harper, Kukoc) seem much better suited than the 80s Lakers/Celtics to the switching perimeter defense needed to beat the 2014-19 Warriors. But again, who the heck knows...
Since we like to use the "No special extra training" to hamper the past teams, I would love to see the pout face or Curry when magic, or Byron Scott, or DJ, or Gary Payton, had a hand on his hip the whole time he had the ball with no call, and when he curled a screen and Horace Grant or Rodman or Parish slammed a forearm into his chest and drove him back under the screen to his defender, or when bench guy drilled him into the third row because he had fouls to give.

Now I am not Don Cherry, today's safer, more fluid game is better, but the skills, techniques allowed would negate much of what works today.
 

snowmanny

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Alternatively: the '80s also had a three point line; teams just didn't know how to exploit it or defend it like they do today. And yet: 3 points in the '80s was still 150% of 2 points. Again, a silly convo, but I suspect those '80s Lakers and Celtics teams might leave Steph, Klay and KD largely unguarded behind the arc and lose every game by 30-40, even with '80s rules and reffing.

To throw out one example: Magic was a 6'-9" point forward who was called a "guard" in those days because (1) he ran the offense and (2) defensively, you could live with putting him on smaller, quicker perimeter shooters cos those guys didn't dominate the game from beyond the arc like they can today. Could you live with Magic guarding Steph/Klay today, especially with old man Kareem standing like a statue in the paint? Unless you gave him months/years of intense training guarding the three, my sense is that Steph + Klay might drop 80+ a game between them. (Are months of training Magic, Kareem et al. to guard the perimeter allowed? Questions like this are why this game is silly...)

Assuming we're not allowing any special extra training, Pippen + Jordan (along with Rodman, Harper, Kukoc) seem much better suited than the 80s Lakers/Celtics to the switching perimeter defense needed to beat the 2014-19 Warriors. But again, who the heck knows...
Would Klay shoot exactly as well with hand-checking? Are flagrant fouls allowed? What if Bird decides to take 10 three-pointers a game? What if Pete Maravich doesn't retire because he can take 10 three-pointers a game? It's all stupid.
 

cheech13

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Whether it's fair or not, it's going to be part of the narrative that the Warriors "only" went 1-2 in the Finals without KD and the one win came against a hobbled Cavs team missing two of its three best players. Three titles in five years is a dynasty, but it looks more like the '00-'04 Lakers or '03-'07 Spurs than the '60s Celtics or '90 Bulls. If they come back and win more in the future this can all be disregarded, but if it ends now I think three titles for this team will be considered a major disappointment considering how historically good they were at the peak of their powers.
 
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the moops

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Whether it's fair or not, it's going to be part of the narrative that the Warriors "only" went 1-2 in the Finals without KD and the one win came against a hobbled Cavs team missing two of its three best players.
I think this has an almost zero percent chance of being the narrative
 

cheech13

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I think this has an almost zero percent chance of being the narrative
You don't pay attention to much mainstream sports media then, do you? The clickbait guys are already circling Curry for going 0-9 on game-winning shots and Simmons on his podcast last night was already talking about how different things would be if the Warriors had played a healthy Cavs team in '15. They're is absolutely going to be a re-appraisal of this run in the next few months. It's part of the what have you done for me lately culture.
 

djbayko

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Also, Lakers are now title favorites for next season:


Westgate 2020 title odds:
Lakers: 9/2
Bucks 6-1
Clippers 6-1 (!!!!)
Rockets 8-1
Raptors 10-1
Celtics 12-1
Sixers 12-1
Warriors 14-1
Nuggets 16-1
Thunder 16-1
Knicks 20-1
Nets 25-1


A whole lot of stuff baked in there---Lakers, Celtics, Knicks (?), Nets are obviously all based on certain trades/signings, but there's some overlap.

Only the Lakers OR the Celtics will get AD. The Raptors or Clippers numbers hinge on Kawhi. The Knicks and Nets hinge (likely) on Kyrie and another FA.
The rest of the market does not seem to be in line with that book. You're always going to get different odds at different places, especially this early on. But Lakers as favorites is ridiculous.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I would love to see the pout face or Curry when magic, or Byron Scott, or DJ, or Gary Payton, had a hand on his hip the whole time he had the ball with no call, and when he curled a screen and Horace Grant or Rodman or Parish slammed a forearm into his chest and drove him back under the screen to his defender, or when bench guy drilled him into the third row because he had fouls to give.
Hmm, you mean all the standard stuff Curry encounters every game, especially in the playoffs? Those dudes weren't tougher, stronger, or more willing to play physical, grabbing, clawing defense than Pat Beverley, PJ Tucker, Jrue Holiday, Rondo, Eric Gordon, Kawhi, Paul George, Marcus Smart, et al.
 

tims4wins

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The rest of the market does not seem to be in line with that book. You're always going to get different odds at different places, especially this early on. But Lakers as favorites is ridiculous.
This is now a story on ESPN

 

djbayko

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This is now a story on ESPN

Lakers always seem to get a huge bump in odds due to Lakers nation creating a lot of action. Same thing happened last year - they were one of the early favorites, and we know how that went. I'm happy with my Rockets +2000 and Raptors +3000.
 

snowmanny

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Hmm, you mean all the standard stuff Curry encounters every game, especially in the playoffs? Those dudes weren't tougher, stronger, or more willing to play physical, grabbing, clawing defense than Pat Beverley, PJ Tucker, Jrue Holiday, Rondo, Eric Gordon, Kawhi, Paul George, Marcus Smart, et al.
I'm sorry the Warriors lost. I like them a lot and was rooting for them. It's probably an awful feeling knowing your team wasn't close to peak form when it counted most. But imagining they would have beaten some team from thirty years ago seems like a tortured way to console yourself.
 

reggiecleveland

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Hmm, you mean all the standard stuff Curry encounters every game, especially in the playoffs? Those dudes weren't tougher, stronger, or more willing to play physical, grabbing, clawing defense than Pat Beverley, PJ Tucker, Jrue Holiday, Rondo, Eric Gordon, Kawhi, Paul George, Marcus Smart, et al.
You don't get it. Stuff that is a foul now was not a foul then. For a while there were only two refs too.

 

coremiller

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You don't pay attention to much mainstream sports media then, do you? The clickbait guys are already circling Curry for going 0-9 on game-winning shots and Simmons on his podcast last night was already talking about how different things would be if the Warriors had played a healthy Cavs team in '15. They're is absolutely going to be a re-appraisal of this run in the next few months. It's part of the what have you done for me lately culture.
People need something to talk about, but this stuff all fades with time, and nobody but the diehards remembers much of any of this. But the banners hang forever.
 

cheech13

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SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,268
People need something to talk about, but this stuff all fades with time, and nobody but the diehards remembers much of any of this. But the banners hang forever.
Oh yeah, I absolutely get that and I kind of think we are in agreement here. In a decade no one will remember the the individual games and injury circumstances but they remember that it was three titles total. In that sense I think they get slotted in with the "lesser" dynasties like the Lakers and Spurs of the 2000s, or the Heat of the 2010s, and not the '90s Bulls, '80s Lakers or '60s Celtics. Maybe I'm off-base.