That’s my quarterback!……or is he?
- Thread starter BigSoxFan
- Start date
My choice is to let a competition play out, but to add another player to the mix via FA or, more likely, the draft because I think there’s almost zero chance Zappe is the answer and increasingly little chance Mac is the answer, and I’m skeptical they’ll find a hands-down better option in the offseason.
I don't think any QB is succeeding with this offensive line, these coaches and these receivers. Mac vs. Zappe in camp isn't even a competition, Mac will win that. I don't think Mac is a great QB by any means, but I don't see another option for this team at the moment besides giving him some help in all three areas. Restarting the clock with a mid first round pick makes no sense unless folks want another 3 years of this shit. We know Bill ain't going out and trading for a stud QB and giving up the assets it would take to get one, so for better or worse, I think Mac is the guy in 2023.
It's reasonable to be really skeptical of Mac as a future star QB, but I've got to see him in a better situation before writing him off. I don't even think the WRs are that big of an issue, but the miserable line play and the horrible coaching on that side of the ball is putting him in a no-win situation, and we need to see him in a different situation than this year before writing him off.
This is where I stand too. I don't know if Mac is the answer, I don't know if any QB outside of a no doubter elite monster QB is going to succeed in this particular environment and we know how a few bad spots can really ruin the whole experience. I'm not opposed to a change to Zappe if they see a lot in practice, but I feel like what we saw was a mix of lack of scouting, a somewhat more mobile pocket QB, and easier competition as opposed to a major positive difference.
I think if the Patriots are going to be spending the 2022 offseason trying to fix things...they got a lot of other areas to address prior to QB including the disappearing TE game, the OL, and the offensive coaching.
With all of that said, if somehow the right guy became available...go for it, but you better be SURE.
I voted competition. Basically, year 3 will either make or break Mac Jones as a starter. He had a good rookie year and a lousy sophomore year (so far). He has one more shot to get back on track, and then the team needs to move on. Nice thing is that Zappe showed enough that he could take over next year if he continues to grow and Mac continues to falter.
I’ve been a Mac guy through and through, but yesterday pretty much ended my major hopes for him. I think he goes into 2023 the starter, but I’m ready to start looking for his replacement. We’ve seen him play well enough that I think he can make a playoff run on an otherwise excellent roster, but they lost to a bad team yesterday largely because he couldn’t get it done in a game where the o line and run game held up their end of the bargain. The arm strength was always going to be limiting, but it’s clear he has a long way to go on processing and decision making and while I don’t think he should be written off as a career-already-over bust, it would be a mistake not to be exploring higher upside options for the long term as soon as the offseason begins.
I voted the 2023 qb isn’t on the roster, which feels like the right level of Mac skepticism but probably not explicitly realistic. I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t start 2023 games, but I’m almost positive he’s not the 2024 and 2025 guy.
I voted the 2023 qb isn’t on the roster, which feels like the right level of Mac skepticism but probably not explicitly realistic. I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t start 2023 games, but I’m almost positive he’s not the 2024 and 2025 guy.
I want a different starter but believe he will get another chance next year. Whether that is in fact with better coaching, OL, and offense remains to be seen, of course.
Fast forward one year: "the guy's had three offensive coordinators in three years, what do you expect?"
I voted for camp competition, which Mac probably wins, because i think that is the most likely scenario for 2023. But I don't think the next quarterback who makes the Patriots relevant again (in the discussion as a legitimate AFC championship game contender) is on the roster.
I voted camp competition next year. While I think Mac wins that (over Zappe), I am not sure either guy is the right QB for the Pats going forward. My main choice would be to see which QB is available at their first, second, and third round picks to bring in possible competition for the other two. I really think the future QB will come out of the 2023 or 2024 draft.
I hope I am wrong and Mac turns around or that Zappe really is a diamond in the rough and wins the job.
I guess I just don't see guys like Mac/Zappe really being the answer in today's NFL unless everything is perfect. I mean I watched the 49ers give up a ton of draft capital to move on from Jimmy G after he brought them to a SB b/c they seemingly wanted a cheaper QB with a more modern skill set. And while I believe Jimmy G was never going to be and still isn't as good as Brady, Jimmy G seems like the absolute ceiling for Mac/Zappe, and I am not sure if the Pats have the supporting cast to make that work.
I hope I am wrong and Mac turns around or that Zappe really is a diamond in the rough and wins the job.
I guess I just don't see guys like Mac/Zappe really being the answer in today's NFL unless everything is perfect. I mean I watched the 49ers give up a ton of draft capital to move on from Jimmy G after he brought them to a SB b/c they seemingly wanted a cheaper QB with a more modern skill set. And while I believe Jimmy G was never going to be and still isn't as good as Brady, Jimmy G seems like the absolute ceiling for Mac/Zappe, and I am not sure if the Pats have the supporting cast to make that work.
If SF tells us Mac + your first for Lance, do you do it? Not really sold on him at all but the cost of any young QB will be prohibitive so you’re right they’ll likely need to draft a replacement if they go that route.
But we've seen him in a better situation ... in his first season ... and he was better than he's shown this season. That should have told the Patriots braintrust that, given the proper level of coaching and a better offensive line, Mac can be a successful game manager. That they changed schemes and put it in the hands of neophyte offensive coaches was managerial malpractice in handling a second-year quarterback
Let them battle it out in camp. Neither has proven anything worthy of holding the job going into next year, and Mac's option has to be decided after next season.
I was daydreaming about a Mac for Wilson swap. Just see if fresh air does either good.
That is very interesting as if Mac was going to succeed, a team like the current 49ers would be his best bet. I mean Shanahan has made both Jimmy G and Purdy look awesome this year. I would probably do this as a Pats fan depending where their #1 lands (if pick 16-18 probably yes but if the Pats end up around pick 10-12 no). I doubt the 49ers would do it. I still have no idea why they drafted Lance (I mean I get it) but literally any other player (e.g., a guy like Parsons or another piece) and they probably have a SB title.
I'm not sure how anyone coud watch yesterday's game and say they can't judge Mac because he hasn't been put into the right situation every week. Ideal? Maybe not, but yesterday he was given fantastic OL play and pretty solid playcalling and played a putrid game of football. I'm pretty much done with him, you need to move on. Yeah, maybe Mac can be a game manager type of QB, but imo that's not the ceiling you want to waste your time on with a young QB. I'm also not sure how anyone can know if Zappe is or isn't the guy. I'd probably try to trade Mac for peanuts, draft another QB in the first 1-3 rounds, and let Zappe and that QB battle it out.
Agreed. You can look at the last several games of his rookie season and put to some regression; but what we saw from Mac as a rookie was that he was a capable player when he had a real offensive coordinator and a solid line (and poor wide receivers). That was a really strong base to work off of, and this season to see him go backwards is hugely disappointing, but as you said, there are obvious reasons beyond Mac just suddenly sucking that contribute to that.
It's also important to remember that plenty of meh QBs have won Super Bowls. It's great to have Brady, it's great to have Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen, but we've seen Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Eli Manning twice, decrepit Peyton Manning, win SBs. If the rest of the team is very good (and with the talent at RB and some of the young players on defense, there are some tools there) the Patriots can be a pretty successful team if they can just move the ball through the air at a league-average or slightly above league-average rate. I think Mac can one day do that, but he has no chance with Patricia and this line.
Not with the current coaching staff. With a QB coach/OC who could maximize Lance's talents I would. I know it hasnt been BB's way historically, but it would be nice to have the QB where arm strength and overall athleticism were pluses and not limitations.
Sure, but that's not something you strive for. If you determine your young QBs upside is mediocre in an ideal setting, it's time to cut bait. IMO, it should be Top 10 QB or bust as a mindset. Eli and Flacco were much better than average QBs btw.
I'd like to see how Mac does with a new OC, rebuilt O-line, and skills players. Whether he and the team get any of them is another question altogether.
Wish there were a like button. This is perfect. But even more emphasis on new OC and new OL coaches. I.e., needs to be 2 separate people.
Ride it out with Mac next year with a new OC and offensive staff. If team stinks then use the 2024 off-season to hire a new coach/GM and try to draft Drake Maye or Caleb Williams. Belichick shouldn't get another chance with a 1st round pick.
Perhaps but we have to deal with reality. It seems really unlikely the Pats would cut Mac, and you have to determine how to best allocate dollars for 2023. Seems to me a path is to invest in 2 new tackles, upgrade 2 WR spots, and hire a new OC and QB coach. That would hopefully give Mac more time, better weapons and better instruction. That's a much needed improvement whomever is at QB, honestly.
Mac was awful yesterday, but he also had his skill players drop some easy passes (e.g., Henry and Bourne) as well as guys not get their feet down (e.g., Thornton and Agholor). That should in no way diminish how bad Mac was, but it definitely did not help.
I think Zappe could be a great backup QB. I do not think he is the future QB #1 for this team, especially if the goal is to compete for a Super Bowl. Most of my reasoning is even in his good games (Detroit and Cleveland) he was going up against poor defenses and throwing to wide open guys. He had some really nice pocket awareness, but the shine came off of that (for me) in the Chicago game. The main reason I do not think Zappe is the answer is has the same physical limitations as Mac.
I could be wrong and Zappe could be the guy, but I would not bet on it.
https://draftwire.usatoday.com/lists/bailey-zappe-scouting-report-2022-nfl-draft-western-kentucky-hilltoppers-football/
View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10021431-bailey-zappe-nfl-draft-2022-scouting-report-for-western-kentucky-qb
https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Bailey-Zappe-QB-HoustonBaptist
If Mac is back I'd like to see him have to compete for his job with Zappe or someone else, don't just hand it to him particularly if the regression we've seen this year is real and not a product of bad coaching/OL, etc.
My preference would be to start over, I'm out on Mac now, yesterday put me over the top. I just don't think he does anything particularly well, and he does a lot of things pretty poorly. But I don't realistically know if this is a good option, and cycling through QBs every two years is a surefire way to end up our of the playoffs on a consistent basis.
What I think will happen is that Mac will be given another year, and he won't have to compete for his job.
My preference would be to start over, I'm out on Mac now, yesterday put me over the top. I just don't think he does anything particularly well, and he does a lot of things pretty poorly. But I don't realistically know if this is a good option, and cycling through QBs every two years is a surefire way to end up our of the playoffs on a consistent basis.
What I think will happen is that Mac will be given another year, and he won't have to compete for his job.
The O-line is a dumpster fire and the coaching is, amazingly, even worse than the O-line. Mac has the tools to be successful, though limited, and the blame begins and ends on the coaching. It seems as though they are unaware of what he can and can't do, yet successfully scheme in a way that plays directly against his strengths, and micromanage him to a point of paralysis by analysis (see the sideline called TO on the TD yesterday). This is/was/has been/will continue to be an organizational failure and the only way to know what you've got is to reorganize.
It's a complicated situation in that there are lot of moving parts: OL, WR/TE, coaching and QB.
The OL will need some new blood just to replace the players that are likely gone (Wynn) and potentially gone (Andrews is a retirement risk, IMO). So investment there is a given. The receiving corps is trash, but potentially harder to fix.
I don't think coaching is going to change that much, other than perhaps some changes in the margins.
So that leaves QB. May as well let Zappe and Mac fight it out in training camp. Mac hasn't done nearly enough to be named as the default #1. If a compelling player falls to them in the draft, then go for it. But such a player may be more of a solution for 2024 than 2023 anyway; rookie QB's almost always struggle.
The OL will need some new blood just to replace the players that are likely gone (Wynn) and potentially gone (Andrews is a retirement risk, IMO). So investment there is a given. The receiving corps is trash, but potentially harder to fix.
I don't think coaching is going to change that much, other than perhaps some changes in the margins.
So that leaves QB. May as well let Zappe and Mac fight it out in training camp. Mac hasn't done nearly enough to be named as the default #1. If a compelling player falls to them in the draft, then go for it. But such a player may be more of a solution for 2024 than 2023 anyway; rookie QB's almost always struggle.
I think there's about 0% chance they give up on Mac this off-season so I'm hoping for a good ol'fashioned camp QB competition.
Anyone have ESPN+, Barnwell apparently recapped all 19 teams that MIGHT switch QBs last year, I assume we're in that list, curious what he had to say.
I think you focus FA and draft resources on adding offensive talent - especially at OT and WR - and then hopefully you draft a QB somewhere in rounds 2-5 and have a three way competition between Mac, Zappe, and the new guy.
People can't seem to grasp that the Oline being bad, coaching being bad, and Mac being bad can all be happening at the same time. A lot of his sacks are both on the Oline and him, but remember he's setting up the protection, so if he gets it wrong, it looks like its on the Oline but it may be on him misreading the D. The play calling has put him it tough 3rd and longs, but he can almost never get past his first read. I was in the competition option until yesterday, he missed a lot of easy, short throws badly, like Cam bad. He just seems to struggle at times with basic, clean QB plays that I don't think he is the answer anymore
I don't watch enough college to know what the draft class is looking like, but I don't think anything gets decided or even hinted at until then. I can't see a Rodgers / Brady walking through the door so it will be a cost-controlled QB and another year of mediocrity for the NEPs
I'm not going to say this attitude is wrong; but it's a path to a bunch of 3-14 seasons while you work through the busts (and then try to get a high enough draft pick to try again). I do however think it's clear BB for sure isn't interested in that, there's perfectly legitimate reasons why the Krafts might not love it either, and I agree with the notion that BB's succeeded with the idea of 'great defense, good offensive line & skill positions, and good enough QB play' before so he's fine with trying that model again.
Now maybe Jones isn't good enough to be that (and maybe Zappe can be), but I dunno; I think as I've gotten older I have more appreciation for 'consistently above average' rather than 'boom and bust cycles' in sports, the bust cycles really suck
You know, outside of Wynn, I'm not sure they are. Coaching definitely plays a huge role in OL play and we have seen games where they play great and they've been great in the run game all year. At this point, I'm starting to suspect that at least some of the pass protection is on Mac, not just on being slow to make decisions and being terrible in the pocket, but in calling out protections as well. If you add another Tackle, I think this can be a competitive group, especially if you have better QB play.
I don't think it's a path to 3-14 seasons, given they have some the worst QB play in the league this year and are 7-7. But, even if we didn't have the GOAT coach and end up overperforming talent, I'd still rather go 3-14 finding the right guy than get stuck in the middle forever, paying big money to Derek Carr.
If you really want to wishcast, you can squint and see a Drew Brees-like career for Mac. Brees similarly started off pretty strongly in his first year as a starter, then kind of sucked in his second year (getting benched for Flutie for a time). Then he had a really strong third year and a very good, not great fourth year. Even after moving to the Saints it took a few years before he was really in that consensus top-3ish QB tier year in, year out.
So I think it would be a pretty big mistake to give up on Mac now because, while he’s certainly not good now, there is some chance he could still get really good. Next year should be pretty telling.
Edit: I guess Brees was pretty good more or less right out of the gate for the Saints but the point is that was 5 years into his career by then.
So I think it would be a pretty big mistake to give up on Mac now because, while he’s certainly not good now, there is some chance he could still get really good. Next year should be pretty telling.
Edit: I guess Brees was pretty good more or less right out of the gate for the Saints but the point is that was 5 years into his career by then.
Brown has been lousy for most of the season, and Strange has been inconsistent. The OL has been bad overall, yesterday aside. And they haven't been great in the run game all year. There have been many games where the run blocking was lousy, and our yardage occurred only in bursts where Rham steamrolled everyone.
It is any interesting thought experiment to wonder whether the Patriots would see to trade Mac in the offseason, if they decide to stick with Patricia and company running the offense. I could see teams thinking they could buy low on him, figuring in a better set of circumstances his game might improve.
Yeah the Pats were on the list, basically he just mentioned Brady and Jimmy G as possible targets.
Edit here's a short excerpt. Mods, please let me know if I should delete.
I find this funny. I'd love to see TB12 at quarterback with Patricia calling plays
There’s a case to be made that starting Zappe the last few games of this season is best for everyone. It certainly doesn’t seem like Mac is learning or progressing this season.
If Zappe stinks, the Patriots can identify how they can improve their O line and concepts/coordinator for 2023.
If he’s pretty good that also gives info and you can go into 2023 camp more prepared at the QB position.
The biggest problem is that football players are people and it’s not clear how Mac would react to a benching and the other players may also play poorly. Perhaps this can be done if they lose next week and are eliminated from playoff contention.
If Zappe stinks, the Patriots can identify how they can improve their O line and concepts/coordinator for 2023.
If he’s pretty good that also gives info and you can go into 2023 camp more prepared at the QB position.
The biggest problem is that football players are people and it’s not clear how Mac would react to a benching and the other players may also play poorly. Perhaps this can be done if they lose next week and are eliminated from playoff contention.
Brady's not coming back. But I imagine if he was even considering it the first thing out of his mouth would be to say "First you fire that $%@*! offensive coordinator you got there".
I voted not on the roster yet, because there's money to spend.
There's basically 1 splash at QB next year, and that's Lamar Jackson. Teams will need to pony up 8-10 years at $50M per to be in the conversation. Based on cap, there's only a handful of teams that could do that deal in 2023, and New England is one of them, with over $50M in cap space, and not a ton of spots to fill. This has been my only real glimmer of hope this year; that the team is generally young and cheap, a solid defense with few albatross contracts, and lots of room in 2023.
However, so are the Chicago Bears, with $122M in cap space. I think Lamar goes there with some sort of enormous $60M up front, and less ($40M per year) thereafter, so he really and truly gets paid up front, with room to spare for FA WRs/RBs of choice. Whither Justin Fields I hear you say? Perhaps he stays as the backup (who better to back up the best RPO guy in the league than a younger version of the same!), but I'm hoping that he'll be the new QB1 for the New England Patriots! Mac gets traded as well (perhaps to Cleveland for Old Friend Jacoby Brissett) and the Pats go full RPO QB LOL, with their solid running game. I don't think it works well, but BB wants to try out the RPO Life before he retires.
There's basically 1 splash at QB next year, and that's Lamar Jackson. Teams will need to pony up 8-10 years at $50M per to be in the conversation. Based on cap, there's only a handful of teams that could do that deal in 2023, and New England is one of them, with over $50M in cap space, and not a ton of spots to fill. This has been my only real glimmer of hope this year; that the team is generally young and cheap, a solid defense with few albatross contracts, and lots of room in 2023.
However, so are the Chicago Bears, with $122M in cap space. I think Lamar goes there with some sort of enormous $60M up front, and less ($40M per year) thereafter, so he really and truly gets paid up front, with room to spare for FA WRs/RBs of choice. Whither Justin Fields I hear you say? Perhaps he stays as the backup (who better to back up the best RPO guy in the league than a younger version of the same!), but I'm hoping that he'll be the new QB1 for the New England Patriots! Mac gets traded as well (perhaps to Cleveland for Old Friend Jacoby Brissett) and the Pats go full RPO QB LOL, with their solid running game. I don't think it works well, but BB wants to try out the RPO Life before he retires.
Starting Zappe signals that you've given up and there's no way BB wants that culture.
Question for those that want Mac back next year: how long do you stick with him if he continues to suck? Like, if he wins the competition in camp, but then plays like shit, what's the plan? I certainly do not want to witness the sequel to this season.
Would Jimmy G ever play a full season behind this offensive line? I watch a lot of 49ers games, and I really don't think he is the answer, especially if he is going to be getting close to $30M per year.
Edit - he will also be 32 in November of next year - I am not sure the Pats should be going for a QB in that age range. He mostly isn't the answer because he still makes a lot of questionable decisions and he does seem to have a history of being hurt. But I am mostly out because I am not sure how much of his performance was tied to having a great play caller and amazing weapons at his disposal.
Yeah. I really wish we could move toward thinking about it and talking about it this way.
Even if only generally or hypothetically. I just think it makes the discussion so much better. Like if we imagine that Baker Mayfield is available at $x (pick whatever -- $15m). At least then we can discuss our perceptions of Mac's skills (as contentious as that might be) with reference to something and can talk about the value of $10 million of cap space relative to our other needs. Or like, would you pay $30 million plus (x draft picks) for a Tannehill Jimmy G level player? At least these have some grounding in reality and aren't just "get rid of the bum." Even just speculating on what Daniel Jones or Jacoby Brissett will get on the market feels like it would go a ways toward actually being able to discuss Mac with some context.
And if the Pats are going to spend $20 mil on a QB, what players do they drop to make room financially? And how does that impact their ability to get other players they need?
So I think there are a couple options...
1. Bring in a competent fringe starter for reasonably cheap to compete with Mac.
2. Draft a QB to compete with Mac
3. Trade Mac, draft a QB.
4. Trade Mac, sign a QB.
In terms of money... they'll have some money... 56M in cap space and only a couple major losses (Jonathan Jones and Jakobi), they can also open up another $9.7M by cutting McCourty. Also extending/restructuring Judon saves money, Henry can be cut or re-structured to save money, Jonnu could re-structure. We need improvements, but also a lot of contributors at key positions are on really cheap deals (the rookie CBs, the guards, the RBs, Dugger, Uche, Barmore, etc.)
1. Bring in a competent fringe starter for reasonably cheap to compete with Mac.
2. Draft a QB to compete with Mac
3. Trade Mac, draft a QB.
4. Trade Mac, sign a QB.
In terms of money... they'll have some money... 56M in cap space and only a couple major losses (Jonathan Jones and Jakobi), they can also open up another $9.7M by cutting McCourty. Also extending/restructuring Judon saves money, Henry can be cut or re-structured to save money, Jonnu could re-structure. We need improvements, but also a lot of contributors at key positions are on really cheap deals (the rookie CBs, the guards, the RBs, Dugger, Uche, Barmore, etc.)