Kraft One-Ups Brady’s Departure

[Rovin Romine]

Doesn't there have to be a demonstrable bargain made? E.g. the guy says, "I will give you $100 if you [perform oral sex on] me." Alternatively, the woman says, "I will [perform oral sex on] you for $100." And then the other party, man or woman agrees and they get on with it?

So advancing the logic, if Kraft got his massage and the woman gave him his tug and he left a "tip" with no bargain spoken or implied, is he still guilty?

What you're suggesting is right in the wheelhouse of the fact-finding purpose of juries (or a judge if they opt for one).

Based on the evidence submitted at trial, does the jury feel the state has proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Kraft knowingly exchanged money for sex, and thus violated the statute? Or do they read the evidence as containing some ambiguity that leaves them with a reasonable doubt as to whether or not Kraft engaged in soliciting/accepting prostitution?

But, as a matter of FL law, no, it's not dismissible on those facts. A "nudge and wink" transaction is still a transaction that goes to the jury for a final determination.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Lot of mental straining here. He’s an old billionaire that wanted a hooker. He picked the wrong place, will pay his fine and do his classes. I highly doubt he’s going to drag it out by trying to ‘prove’ he didn’t have intention. He’s not going to be forced to sell the team. He’s not going to sue the league and shut it down. He’s not going to jail. And the team isn’t losing draft picks. It wasn’t a setup. The persecution complex is really overboard at this point in our fanbase.

He’ll be ‘suspended’, which means nothing. He clearly doesn’t give two shits about it, as witnessed by showing up at the Oscars parties. He’ll write a check and do his probation and classes.

 

[LoweTek]

What you're suggesting is right in the wheelhouse of the fact-finding purpose of juries (or a judge if they opt for one).

Based on the evidence submitted at trial, does the jury feel the state has proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Kraft knowingly exchanged money for sex, and thus violated the statute? Or do they read the evidence as containing some ambiguity that leaves them with a reasonable doubt as to whether or not Kraft engaged in soliciting/accepting prostitution?

But, as a matter of FL law, no, it's not dismissible on those facts. A "nudge and wink" transaction is still a transaction that goes to the jury for a final determination.

But as a matter of fact (legally) wouldn't this set of circumstances encourage prosecutors to settle for whatever they could get to avoid trial and the risk of dismissal?

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Doesn't there have to be a demonstrable bargain made? E.g. the guy says, "I will give you $100 if you [perform oral sex on] me." Alternatively, the woman says, "I will [perform oral sex on] you for $100." And then the other party, man or woman agrees and they get on with it?

So advancing the logic, if Kraft got his massage and the woman gave him his tug and he left a "tip" with no bargain spoken or implied, is he still guilty?

According to my wife, yes. According to a judge . . . .?

 

[LoweTek]

Nice, Lose.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Me and everyone else in this thread.

So if you're on the jury, if it's 1080p and not clear vote not guilty, if they're in 4k you're going to convict? What about 408i? 720p? Wonder if they have Dolby Atmos. If it's stereo i'm not convicting.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

So if you're on the jury, if it's 1080p and not clear vote not guilty, if they're in 4k you're going to convict? What about 408i? 720p? Wonder if they have Dolby Atmos. If it's stereo i'm not convicting.

Do you really think this is going to trial?

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Do you really think this is going to trial?

It was a joke. No. I don't expect this to go anywhere.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

It was a joke. No. I don't expect this to go anywhere.

Apologies, my sarcasm meter is off today.

 

[Time to Mo Vaughn]

Stills from the video have leaked. This is definitely going to be pretty divisive in the locker room.

Spoiler: Possibly NSFW

 

[axx]

Doesn't there have to be a demonstrable bargain made? E.g. the guy says, "I will give you $100 if you [perform oral sex on] me." Alternatively, the woman says, "I will [perform oral sex on] you for $100." And then the other party, man or woman agrees and they get on with it?

So advancing the logic, if Kraft got his massage and the woman gave him his tug and he left a "tip" with no bargain spoken or implied, is he still guilty?

If Kraft's lawyers find a loophole to get him off, should we call it the Tug Rule?

 

[Dollar]

If Kraft's lawyers find a loophole to get him off, should we call it the Tug Rule?

"After reviewing the tape, the prostitute's arm was going forward, but not backward and forward again. It is an incomplete charge." - Walt Coleman

 

[uncannymanny]

Stills from the video have leaked. This is definitely going to be pretty divisive in the locker room.

Spoiler: Possibly NSFW

If Kraft's lawyers find a loophole to get him off, should we call it the Tug Rule?

Both of these are excellent. And I thought this thread had already shot its wad.

 

[Rovin Romine]

But as a matter of fact (legally) wouldn't this set of circumstances encourage prosecutors to settle for whatever they could get to avoid trial and the risk of dismissal?

No, not really. IMO, pretty much as a matter of course, Kraft is very likely to be offered that Withhold I talked about earlier in the thread. That's an excellent offer. In fact, there is nothing better the state can offer.

If Kraft had some kind of great motion and/or there was some sort of impropriety in the policing, then yes, it's possible the S.A. reviews that and then says, "Yeah, this should be dismissed." (e.g, "dropping the charges"/declining to prosecute/nolle prosequi.) It happens. (Or maybe the state starts plea bargaining with a finding of guilt but get talked down to offering a WH.)

But let's assume that the state has Kraft pretty much dead to rights on this, and he's offered a WH. Well, if that's not good enough for Kraft, and he actually wants to endure the embarrassment and try this thing? If I were the S.A., I'd treat Kraft like anybody else and let my regular first year courtroom team run with it as a learning exercise. Win or lose, it's just not that big a deal - at least, not as big as the optics of currying favor with the rich by treating them differently than the poor.* And, it's probably a pretty great experience/story for a first year prosecutor out of Nova or St. Thomas.

*I say this as an abstract. I have no idea what the actual local politics are in PBC for something like this. (I've done civil cases up there, but not a crim one so far.) However, ideally, this kind of situation shouldn't be handled any differently than Kraft getting a DWI.

 

[Rovin Romine]

I'm a little disappointed that we haven't had a poll as to which of the 2 encounters listed in the affidavit was Kraft.

 

[nighthob]

Both of these are excellent. And I thought this thread had already shot its wad.

We Soshers are handy like that.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

Ernie Adams, playing the longest of games:

https://www.gardens4you.co.uk/phalaenopsis-moth-orchid-pink-striped-gb-en.html#description

Phalaenopsis Moth orchid Pink Striped
Also known as Moth orchids because the beautiful flowers resemble moths in flight. This unusual Phalaenopsis is white with pink stripes. The blossoms look like they are made from rich velvet and appear during winter lasting for months on end. It makes a wonderful gift.

 

[Bellhorn]

"After reviewing the tape, the prostitute's arm was going forward, but not backward and forward again. It is an incomplete charge." - Walt Coleman

Listening to Walt Coleman announcing the Tuck Rule on repeat would probably get me off in under 4 minutes

 

[Pandarama]

But, as a matter of FL law, no, it's not dismissible on those facts.

You guys have never been the same since Claude Kirk was governor.

 

[Marciano490]

To answer most questions from today. Replace “a million three undeclared dollars” with “4 minute handjob plus towel wipe of genitals and abdomen.”

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

Ernie Adams, playing the longest of games:

https://www.gardens4you.co.uk/phalaenopsis-moth-orchid-pink-striped-gb-en.html#description

Lock. The. Thread. We have a winner.

 

[koufax32]

Lock. The. Thread. We have a wiener.

 

[YTF]

Lot of mental straining here. He’s an old billionaire that wanted a hooker. He picked the wrong place, will pay his fine and do his classes. I highly doubt he’s going to drag it out by trying to ‘prove’ he didn’t have intention. He’s not going to be forced to sell the team. He’s not going to sue the league and shut it down. He’s not going to jail. And the team isn’t losing draft picks. It wasn’t a setup. The persecution complex is really overboard at this point in our fanbase.

He’ll be ‘suspended’, which means nothing. He clearly doesn’t give two shits about it, as witnessed by showing up at the Oscars parties. He’ll write a check and do his probation and classes.

Not so sure that it's mental straining, but rather just trying to give a bit of thought and gain a bit of insight as we still have a few days before Kraft is actually charged and we see whatever course it is that his legal team opts for. Jokes aside, which have been fabulous, it's still a forum with occasional discussion and we have some pretty good resources within the membership here.

 

[Van Everyman]

 

[TheoShmeo]

Showing up at the Oscars is totally consistent with his PR strategy of denial.

Had he stayed home, it would have been a tacit acknowledgement that he has something to be embarrassed about.

Given how he’s handled things to date, I would have been surprised if he laid low.

 

[54thMA]

Given how he’s handled things to date, I would have been surprised if he laid low.

If he had laid low (so to speak), he wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Pretty impressive that at 75 his boys can still swim, I'd think at his age when he cracks a nut, a white flag would come out.

 

[kenneycb]

The weirder thing was that Bob Kraft was actually at the Oscars, regardless of whether he got charged or not.

 

[joe dokes]

What you're suggesting is right in the wheelhouse of the fact-finding purpose of juries (or a judge if they opt for one).

Based on the evidence submitted at trial, does the jury feel the state has proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Kraft knowingly exchanged money for sex, and thus violated the statute? Or do they read the evidence as containing some ambiguity that leaves them with a reasonable doubt as to whether or not Kraft engaged in soliciting/accepting prostitution?

But, as a matter of FL law, no, it's not dismissible on those facts. A "nudge and wink" transaction is still a transaction that goes to the jury for a final determination.

Does he even have a right to a jury for this FL misdemeanor?

 

[Al Zarilla]

If he had laid low (so to speak), he wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Pretty impressive that at 75 his boys can still swim, I'd think at his age when he cracks a nut, a white flag would come out.

Haven’t you heard that 75 (he’s actually 77) is the new 65? Also, I’ve heard tell that there’s a lot of sex going on in assisted living facilities. Have that picture with your morning coffee, or lunch on the east coast.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Haven’t you heard that 75 (he’s actually 77) is the new 65? Also, I’ve heard tell that there’s a lot of sex going on in assisted living facilities. Have that picture with your morning coffee, or lunch on the east coast.

If you want more nightmares about what Gammy and Pappy are up to:

https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions-treatments/info-2017/std-exposure-rises-older-adults-fd.html

 

[Norm loves Vera]

Police presser at 2pm.


Michele Steele

@ESPNMichele
Robert Kraft update: the Palm Beach state attorney is holding a press conference at 2 pm ET


40
12:34 PM - Feb 25

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I don't expect it to be correct, but imagine the chaos if they got it wrong.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

Maybe the girl picked the wrong penis in the police lineup.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Does he even have a right to a jury for this FL misdemeanor?

Yep. Some odd wrinkles, but the basic rule is if you can potentially be incarcerated, you have the right to a jury of your peers.

 

[tims4wins]

Any update from the PC?

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Any update from the PC?

Whole bunch of nothing so far.

 

[Ale Xander]

Whole bunch of nothing so far.

Kind of like Sandy Leon's pa's

 

[Jack Sox]

 

[Ralphwiggum]

So, based on that are they identifying him based on the registration of his vehicle?

 

[Mooch]

So, based on that are they identifying him based on the registration of his vehicle?

And Kraft's driver's license picture.

 

[ifmanis5]

From the presser, they treat everyone the same, no special treatment. It's a multi-department case so can't comment on all arrests but doesn't seem like there's more big names to come. "It's hard to talk about rumors, especially false ones."

Kraft's arraignment will be April 24th.

 

[Ale Xander]

All he has to do is pull up to a smoothie or coffee stand (if am) open the Bentley doors, say hi I'm the owner of the Patriots, and the girls walk in. Jeez

If you have the services of Bentley, know how to use it.

 

[joe dokes]

Yep. Some odd wrinkles, but the basic rule is if you can potentially be incarcerated, you have the right to a jury of your peers.

Even for as little as 60 days (that's RKK's max, right?)? Well hooray for Florida.

So, based on that are they identifying him based on the registration of his vehicle?

For probable cause, yes. For a trial, I suspect they'd add the videotape and let the finder of fact decide.

 

[tims4wins]

Very interesting that he was there the day of the AFCCG and didn't travel with the team. Kickoff was like 7.5 hours later.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Very interesting that he was there the day of the AFCCG and didn't travel with the team. Kickoff was like 7.5 hours later.

They don't (didn't) even open until 10am on Sundays. Quick 10-11, get to PBI at 12, fly to KC, then go to the game.

Busy day. So basically if they had the early game they wouldn't have any issue, just like the Deflategate game which got delayed due to overtime.

We really missed out on the value of the #1 seed. RKK not being in Florida and getting services on the day of the game.

 

[tims4wins]

They don't (didn't) even open until 10am on Sundays. Quick 10-11, get to PBI at 12, fly to KC, then go to the game.

Busy day.

Right, I just figured he traveled on Air Force Kraft with the rest of the team to road games

 

[BernieRicoBoomer]

Yep. Some odd wrinkles, but the basic rule is if you can potentially be incarcerated, you have the right to a jury of your peers.

For a second there I thought you got a look at the video somehow.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

For probable cause, yes. For a trial, I suspect they'd add the videotape and let the finder of fact decide.

I was just curious how they knew it was him. I had assumed he was smart enough to pay in cash and not use his real name if he had to sign a release or whatever. Identifying the "customers" by their car license plate is probably SOP, how else would they know without busting guys as they came out of the building (which would put an end to the whole operation pretty quickly)?

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Right, I just figured he traveled on Air Force Kraft with the rest of the team to road games

The whole AFC Championship Gameday makes this all even weirder. Not that he didn't do it, but he wasn't with the team, he wasn't even in KC the day of the game, he decided to go get a quickie on the way to the airport? I would have suspected he was in Foxboro the week before, guess not.

 

[The Big Red Kahuna]

What's with all the hugging?