That'd be up the butt, Bob - Kraft Charged with Soliciting.

LoweTek

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Just as there all kinds of variations in individual political beliefs, there all kinds of variations in individual moral compasses. I believe it goes without saying a large number of educated, decent people with otherwise "respectable" lifestyles are completely indifferent to consenting adult prostitution. Judging from how widespread the activity is, be it in a massage spa or a hotel room, many are partaking as well.

There was a recent report published about female college student sugar baby activity at various colleges and universities. It was based on data provided by a large sugar baby connection site called Seeking Arrangement. Sugar baby is just another name for paid consenting adult sexual favors. The only difference is it's long term - think monthly payment. There are over 1,000 documented active sugar baby/sugar daddy arrangements at UCF alone. The top 20 list reads like a college recruitment catalog. It's fair to speculate there are multiple tens of thousands of active instances this type of activity at US colleges as we speak. We're not even counting non-college student arrangements or those using one of the other hookup sites or those who connected by other means.

I respect the moral objection but most often paid sex occurs primarily between consenting adults making a considered choice and they know exactly what they are doing. I don't hesitate to say the majority of people understand it will always flourish, cannot be stopped and in the absence of trafficking or child exploitation most don't care one bit about it.

Absent trafficking, IMO this whole thing is a waste of legal and law enforcement resources. The warrant was poorly justified, sloppily and questionably executed and originated by ill-intended, sometimes ignorant people who want to be on TV, get their name in the paper and advance political careers. Some of the moral outrage ought to be directed at them.

Honestly, I hope the judge harshly admonishes the SA and LE and throws it all out.
 

eustis22

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The fuck for...his never ending battle to make sure drugs didn't fall into the wrong hands? Keeping hookers off the streets? After Tenet got one the thing became meaningless.

Kraft can suppress all he wants....that tape is coming out, eventually, as they all do.

Reverse Old Guy Fappening.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Without getting into details, I’ve been far from perfect in my life in my personal relationships and did something that many (most) would consider to be morally reprehensible. I’ve learned a lot from that incident, but the most important thing I learned is that you cannot spend time worrying about how people who do not know you think about stuff that has happened in your private life. It’s difficult enough to deal with family stuff, I had co-workers and spouses of co-workers who had an issue with decisions that I made. Given the lengths I had to go through to repair relationships within my own family, I laughed at their judgment when I found out about it.

I had no issues going to my kids soccer games immediately after, even knowing that others there knew what had happened.

I also had the luxury of going through all of that without being a public figure. I don’t necessarily think that giving Kraft a standing ovation was a great look, but I don’t fault the guy for continuing to live his life.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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So I admit I'm a fan of the team he owns, but I ask in all sincerity:

What public good does it do to release the tape?

(If the answer is, to deter others, then I'm fine with that. But I'm genuinely curious. On the surface it appears the only reason to release it is to humiliate him. I could well be very, very wrong and would be happy to be told so if that's the case).
 

ifmanis5

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So I admit I'm a fan of the team he owns, but I ask in all sincerity:

What public good does it do to release the tape?

(If the answer is, to deter others, then I'm fine with that. But I'm genuinely curious. On the surface it appears the only reason to release it is to humiliate him. I could well be very, very wrong and would be happy to be told so if that's the case).
It's not a choice, it's the law. The tapes are evidence in a public trial and requests were made for the evidence to be made public.

Under Florida's so-called "Sunshine" law, any records made or received by any public agency in the course of its official business are available for inspection, unless specifically exempted by the Florida Legislature.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-prosecutors-set-release-police-surveillance-video-patriots/story?id=62461763&cid=social_twitter_abcn

He could have prevented this by taking the deal that was offered to him but he didn't.
Or, just not get a day spa handy in the first place. Too bad for him.
 

mauf

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He could have prevented this by taking the deal that was offered to him but he didn't.
Or, just not get a day spa handy in the first place. Too bad for him.
How would a plea deal have prevented the release of the tapes? If anything, I’d think that would make it harder to keep them under wraps, but I’m hardly an expert and would welcome some education.
 

ifmanis5

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How would a plea deal have prevented the release of the tapes? If anything, I’d think that would make it harder to keep them under wraps, but I’m hardly an expert and would welcome some education.
If he took the plea deal and the charges are dropped, then no case.

All have been offered plea deals, standard for first time offenders, that would drop the misdemeanor solicitation charges if they publicly admitted that they would have been found guilty if they went to trial.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-ne-kraft-rejecting-plea-deal-reports-20190320-story.html
 

Rusty13

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ifmanis5

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Here's the legal explainer: https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/live-trials-current/robert-kraft/florida-prosecutors-say-they-must-release-salacious-video-of-robert-krafts-massage-parlor-visit/

Only thing that can stop the release now is a court order.

Absent a Court order, the State will be releasing the requested public records once it has retrieved and reviewed the records, and deleted any portions of the record which are statutorily exempt under Chapter 119 [the Public Records Act].
 

mauf

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I’m not sure what you think that article establishes.

The case going away wouldn’t cause the tapes to cease to exist, or to cease to be public records subject to Florida’s “Sunshine Law.” It would, however, deprive Kraft of various arguments that he has as a criminal defendant that might delay the release of the tapes. More significantly, it would deprive him of the opportunity to argue in court that the tapes were made illegally, which is probably his only chance (albeit a slim one) of keeping those tapes permanently out of the public domain.

I think the tapes are coming out regardless, but it seems to me that whatever hope Kraft has of keeping them under wraps requires his criminal case to remain open.

Edit: The Abrams article doesn’t change my view — whatever slim hope Kraft has of keeping those videos away from the public would disappear if the criminal charges against him were finally resolved.
 

Rusty13

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Right. And Kraft, his legal time and several other co-defendants have filed motions seeking such a court order.

Meanwhile, according to Kraft's legal team in a TMZ piece (I now need a shower), the same prosecutors office assured the judge presiding over the motions, which are currently under advisement, that it would NOT release the video pending the judge's ruling:

Kraft claims the prosecutor had previously assured the court the video would not be released until a judge had an opportunity to analyze the issue ... and now he clearly feels prosecutors have mislead the court about their true intentions.

So, what does it all mean? The case will go in front of a judge TODAY at 11:30 AM PT -- and the judge could rule from the bench immediately.

And, there's more ... one of the patrons of the Day Spa who claims he was unknowingly recorded by the surveillance cams while receiving a legitimate massage has also filed docs seeking to block the release. He claims he had disrobed in the room and fears that private footage will humiliate him.
https://www.tmz.com/2019/04/17/robert-kraft-naked-spa-video-to-be-released-prosecutors-say/
 

Rusty13

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Great stuff in this piece from Kraft's lawyers. What an idiot this prosecutor is for making this statement today -- provided further ammunition for Kraft's legal team!

 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I just spent some time with the docket, reading the various filings.

It seems absurd to me that videos showing private acts pursuant to a sneak and peek warrant would be public records or can be used by the prosecutor in the way they are obviously using them. I have no idea what the law is, and have no public records experience, but this is just so scummy of the prosecution.

I think the lawyers for Kraft are doing a good job of making an issue out of it in preparation for the upcoming suppression hearing on the 26th. That motion otherwise seems like a longshot to me but they are doing a good job of muddying the waters.

Standard disclaimer:

How is release of evidence to the public not prejudicial to the rights of a fair trial to the defendant?
That's one of the state's arguments. The media defendants are making alternative arguments, and the state is waiving stuff left and right in order to create the impression that it has no choice but to produce under public records law.

Kraft's lawyers did a pretty good job of showing that the prosecution is deliberately using all this to taint the jury pool, by noting that in a press conference the prosecution used the phrase "human trafficking" 30 times, only to later admit privately in a hearing that there was no human trafficking aspect to the prosecution.
 

ifmanis5

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I’m not sure what you think that article establishes.

The case going away wouldn’t cause the tapes to cease to exist, or to cease to be public records subject to Florida’s “Sunshine Law.” It would, however, deprive Kraft of various arguments that he has as a criminal defendant that might delay the release of the tapes. More significantly, it would deprive him of the opportunity to argue in court that the tapes were made illegally, which is probably his only chance (albeit a slim one) of keeping those tapes permanently out of the public domain.

I think the tapes are coming out regardless, but it seems to me that whatever hope Kraft has of keeping them under wraps requires his criminal case to remain open.

Edit: The Abrams article doesn’t change my view — whatever slim hope Kraft has of keeping those videos away from the public would disappear if the criminal charges against him were finally resolved.
When you go for the plea deal I would think that step one would be to seal the evidence and to make sure the tapes don't see the light of day. I'm not a lawyer so if someone wants to explain how sealed evidence gets unsealed for release, please let me know. Perhaps another court order?

Anyway, I do think that releasing the tapes before the proper trial goes forward would definitely tamper a potential jury pool and inhibit a fair trial. So between that and using the Fla state's attorney's words from yesterday against them today, that does make a compelling arguments for Kraft's lawyers. CNN says that the 2:30 conference call with the judge is still going on and the judge is not happy with the state's attorneys.
 

ifmanis5

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Stop hold on the tapes for now...

World News Tonight‏Verified account @ABCWorldNews 27s28 seconds ago
JUST IN: Judge halts prosecutors' efforts to release police surveillance video of Patriots owner Robert Kraft, others inside spa rooms.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-prosecutors-set-release-police-surveillance-video-patriots/story?id=62461763&cid=social_twitter_abcn
"I don’t want this released until I’ve ruled," Florida Circuit Court Judge Joseph Marx said in an emergency hearing on a conference call with the two parties and the media late Wednesday afternoon.
Kraft's attorneys had previously filed a motion with the court to suppress the video evidence, and a hearing had been scheduled.

That hearing is now scheduled for April 29 at 1:30 p.m. local time.
 

Shelterdog

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Really? Do explain.
You may not agree, but a lot of people believe that even "voluntary" sex workers are hurt by the perhaps inherently dehumanizing nature of sex work--and that's before we even get to worth these particular sex workers had meaningful choices about engaging in sex work.
 

TheoShmeo

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Am I naive in thinking that Kraft will cave and do a deal if/when he loses the war on the release of the video?

No victory in Court could ever unring that bell.
 

InstaFace

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You may not agree, but a lot of people believe that even "voluntary" sex workers are hurt by the perhaps inherently dehumanizing nature of sex work--and that's before we even get to worth these particular sex workers had meaningful choices about engaging in sex work.
You're right that a lot of people believe that. But if that's your own belief, perhaps you can explain why sex work is any more inherently dehumanizing than: cleaning someone's apartment, doing someone's laundry, working them out as a massage therapist or PT, modeling or waitressing - and so much so that it's a difference of type, not just of degree. Because if the dehumanizing elements are "doing shit for someone that most people can figure out how to do for themselves", "being looked at like a piece of meat", "having to muster fake enthusiasm for pleasing others", "getting ordered to do physically awkward things", etc, you can find pretty much all of those elements in plenty of other jobs, minus the "let them put things in my body" aspect, which while distasteful is not the sole job requirement.

There are lots of jobs that are dehumanizing in some respect or another - I mean, just think about what it's like being a coal worker, or telephone sales, or being a mascot, or frankly even just supermarket cashier or bagger. With supply of labor for that job perhaps lower than other comparable careers, what happens is that wages rise to compensate, up to the limits of economic reality of the industry. If the choice is $15/hr doing the most rote, boring-but-stressful job you can imagine or $25/hr fucking them, probably not too many would choose the latter, but $15 vs $200-300/hr is such a considerable difference that if those were my choices, I'd understand why people pick the latter.
 

Captaincoop

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You may not agree, but a lot of people believe that even "voluntary" sex workers are hurt by the perhaps inherently dehumanizing nature of sex work--and that's before we even get to worth these particular sex workers had meaningful choices about engaging in sex work.
Personally, I don't agree with that statement. But even if I did, the whole line of thinking reminds me of when a police officer visited my high school when I was 16 and lectured us about how law enforcement officers die trying to stop drugs from coming into the country, so if you smoke a joint at a party, you are responsible for those deaths. I neither do illegal drugs nor visit prostitutes, but I don't agree with the logic.

Are teenagers who like to party responsible for the illegal drug trade, or is it the flawed drug laws? By banning something that is immensely popular and can't really be stopped, the state has created a lucrative black market.

Which brings us to Bob Kraft.

If you think that women who voluntarily work at rub-and-tug joints are somehow victims (as opposed to unskilled workers making an understandable choice to make more money than they would as a hotel maid or fast food worker, or whatever the other options are), is it lonely old men that are responsible, or is it the fact that the state of Florida has made prostitution illegal? There is always going to be demand for prostitution - it's biology.

If Bob Kraft were having women packed in crates and brought over from China for use as indentured servant prostitutes, this is a different conversation...
 

Shelterdog

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You're right that a lot of people believe that. But if that's your own belief, perhaps you can explain why sex work is any more inherently dehumanizing than: cleaning someone's apartment, doing someone's laundry, working them out as a massage therapist or PT, modeling or waitressing - and so much so that it's a difference of type, not just of degree. Because if the dehumanizing elements are "doing shit for someone that most people can figure out how to do for themselves", "being looked at like a piece of meat", "having to muster fake enthusiasm for pleasing others", "getting ordered to do physically awkward things", etc, you can find pretty much all of those elements in plenty of other jobs, minus the "let them put things in my body" aspect, which while distasteful is not the sole job requirement.

There are lots of jobs that are dehumanizing in some respect or another - I mean, just think about what it's like being a coal worker, or telephone sales, or being a mascot, or frankly even just supermarket cashier or bagger. With supply of labor for that job perhaps lower than other comparable careers, what happens is that wages rise to compensate, up to the limits of economic reality of the industry. If the choice is $15/hr doing the most rote, boring-but-stressful job you can imagine or $25/hr fucking them, probably not too many would choose the latter, but $15 vs $200-300/hr is such a considerable difference that if those were my choices, I'd understand why people pick the latter.
Because touching Bob Kraft's penis.
 

Ale Xander

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Because touching Bob Kraft's penis.
What about Bob Kraft makes it dehumanizing to touch his penis? A lot of penii have been touched throughout history. Were each of those touches dehumanizing? Is it because he's old and/or rich? A lot of old and rich guys have had their penii touched.
 

fiskful of dollars

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I'm just taking the piss AX, no offense meant.
I mean, if you do suck a lot of dick, that's cool. As an owner, I appreciate anyone who might wanna do that. Not my gig but I appreciate the effort. In general.
 

drleather2001

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There is nothing in that article that states a plea deal would have prevented this. Pretty much the SOLE reason Kraft is fighting this in the first place is because of the pending release of the video.
In some states, anything entered into evidence in court loses its privacy protections at the originating government entity that supplies it. This is for public policy reasons, that unless the court (upon motion) makes a determination that the harm to an individual in releasing something outweighs the heavy presumption that the public has a right to know how judicial decisions are being made (which is pretty central to our society), evidence should be public.

The article ifman posted indicates obliquely that the information had not yet been submitted to court prior to Kraft declining the plea agreement ("police say they have video..." not "video has been submitted to the court."). So at the time Kraft declined, it was not yet publicly available. However, after he declined and the state made its formal case by submitting the video to court as evidence, it became publicly available at the originating agency. A member of the press asked for it. Legally, the government was required to provide it to the press, absent a court order from the judge telling them not to. It is then up to Kraft's attorneys to make a compelling argument that their client's privacy on the matter outweighed the public policy of generally allowing access to court records. Which they did.

This is all how it's supposed to work. The claims of dirty pool are just showmanship and puffery designed to sway public opinion. If you have any issue at all with it, blame the press that's asking for the video and ask them what their true motivations are. Hint: it's not justice.

By the way, when this is all over, the media will probably get another bite at the apple because typically when police investigations close, what is protected information becomes public (barring some exceptions like vulnerable witness identities, etc...). Again, the public policy behind this is so that the public can see how arrests and prosecutions are handled. This is a good thing and a check on law enforcement's huge authority. Kraft won't be able to argue that his rights as a defendant will be impacted. This is likely (in a circular sort of way) why he declined the plea deal, because even if the video isn't entered into evidence, it's still subject to a public records request at the conclusion of the case. So really, by declining the plea agreement, it delays the video's release for at least a little while.
 
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Shelterdog

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Thanks for being up for a nuanced discussion on an important social issue.
Just trying to succinctly describe why performing intimate sexual acts for money is a little different from cleaning a house, which you kind of admit when you say that maybe someone wouldn't do sex works for $10 more an hour than a boring job but might for $185 - 285 more an hour.
 

Captaincoop

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Just trying to succinctly describe why performing intimate sexual acts for money is a little different from cleaning a house, which you kind of admit when you say that maybe someone wouldn't do sex works for $10 more an hour than a boring job but might for $185 - 285 more an hour.
It is different. But that's why it pays better, I would imagine.
 

ifmanis5

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Something called The Blast claims the Kraft video is being shopped around by a third party.

https://theblast.com/robert-kraft-naked-spa-video-shopped-media/

The Blast was recently contacted by a party who claimed to have obtained portions of the actual video taken of Kraft from Orchids of Asia Day Spa & Massage Parlor in Jupiter, FL.

Representatives of our news operation viewed the footage, and upon watching, can verify the tape appears to show Kraft in the massage parlor with another person, presumably the massage therapist.
In the video, the 77-year-old is already undressed and laying on the massage table with his hands placed behind his head. The camera angle is an overhead shot, and it’s believed the camera was placed in the ceiling.
 

ifmanis5

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Kraft's video has gone under temp seal as ordered by a judge.

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190423/judge-temporarily-seals-kraft-videos-taken-at-jupiter-day-spa
WEST PALM BEACH - A circuit court judge has ruled that video recordings that show New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft receiving sex acts at a Jupiter day spa can not be released to the public.

Judge Leonard Hanser ruled that Kraft’s right to a fair trial requires that the footage taken at Orchids of Asia be sealed at least until the case is resolved.
 

dcmissle

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Eddie Jurak

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The big news is, the video will inevitably be disclosed if the case proceeds.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/23/judge-orders-eventual-release-of-kraft-video/

Memo to Kraft — settle. Keep the $10.
That link said the video will be disclosed no matter what Kraft does:

the video will be released when: (1) a jury is sworn in for a trial of the case against Kraft; (2) prosecutors drop the charges; (3) the case is resolved through a plea agreement; or (4) “any other time at which the court finds the fair trial rights of Defendant are not at risk, after notice to the parties and hearing thereon.”
This is going to be the least watched video of all time.
 

dcmissle

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That link said the video will be disclosed no matter what Kraft does:



This is going to be the least watched video of all time.
Judges are happy when cases disappear. That order is subject to amendment. Kraft should have made this go away before now.