That'd be up the butt, Bob - Kraft Charged with Soliciting.

patinorange

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Way back in another lifetime I did legal work for JW Childs, John Childs' private equity firm, just noticed he's on the list too. I never met the dude, I was just a low level associate working on a bunch of their stuff. At least Kraft is not the only Massachusetts based dude with unlimited funds who decided to go to a strip mall Asian massage parlor for a hand job.
Way back in another lifetime I did legal work for JW Childs, John Childs' private equity firm, just noticed he's on the list too. I never met the dude, I was just a low level associate working on a bunch of their stuff. At least Kraft is not the only Massachusetts based dude with unlimited funds who decided to go to a strip mall Asian massage parlor for a hand job.
His shitbag private equity firm bought the company I worked for. And destroyed it over the course of a few years. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
 

Myt1

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Is there trafficking?

I imagine we’ll find out. That Reason think piece linked in Hayes’s tweet is hot fucking garbage, though.

Of course, I actually know people who prosecute human trafficking, so, “Here’s a time there weren’t any trafficking charges!” resonates with me about as powerfully as the apocryphal, “My client can’t be a murderer! Look at all the people already be in the courtroom today!” argument.
 

geoduck no quahog

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What happens to the women who were working there? Are they charged and have their visa's revoked? Are they jailed?

I'd think a bust like this is the end for them...that they're forced to return to China (on whose dime I have no idea). I imagine their life upon return is not so great.

In this case, I think they were no spring chickens (in their 50's? 40's?). I'm concerned about their fate...and what they're now going to endure.
 

Marciano490

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What happens to the women who were working there? Are they charged and have their visa's revoked? Are they jailed?

I'd think a bust like this is the end for them...that they're forced to return to China (on whose dime I have no idea). I imagine their life upon return is not so great.

In this case, I think they were no spring chickens (in their 50's? 40's?). I'm concerned about their fate...and what they're now going to endure.
There is, or was, a visa available to people who help report/prosecute crimes. Hopefully, those will be made available to these women should they cooperate.
 

54thMA

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Haven’t you heard that 75 (he’s actually 77) is the new 65? Also, I’ve heard tell that there’s a lot of sex going on in assisted living facilities. Have that picture with your morning coffee, or lunch on the east coast.
Boy, quite a busy day that was for Mr Kraft;

Brunch at the club
Pick up my lucky dress shirt at the dry cleaners
Get my sausage smoked at the strip mall rub and tug
Hop a plane to KC for the AFCCG

77 must be the new 65 for sure...……………………...
 

Myt1

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There is, or was, a visa available to people who help report/prosecute crimes. Hopefully, those will be made available to these women should they cooperate.
Used to be U-Visa. Don’t think that it exists anymore. I’ve heard about a T-Visa for trafficking victims though.
 

barbed wire Bob

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Used to be U-Visa. Don’t think that it exists anymore. I’ve heard about a T-Visa for trafficking victims though.
A little googling indicates the U-Visa still exists, however the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act caps the number of U-1 visas to only 10,000 per year. So, in practice, it might as well not exist since it’s very difficult to get.

https://visaguide.world/us-visa/nonimmigrant/u-visa/

https://www.jacksonwhitelaw.com/immigration-law/latest-news-on-u-visa/
 

Lose Remerswaal

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While I’m not sure whether it makes any difference legally or morally or any which way whether the women involved were “trafficked” or not, I’m curious as to how Kraft “must have known” they were trafficked (as maintained by some here), if, as has been reported, they weren’t?

Ed: https://www.google.com/amp/s/thebiglead.com/2019/02/26/robert-kraft-prostitutes-not-trafficked/amp/
Is that a trustworthy source? Have we actually seen the names of the women Kraft was working with?
 

Marciano490

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Is that a trustworthy source? Have we actually seen the names of the women Kraft was working with?
First, “worked with” is a nice turn of phrase.

I don’t think anyone expects obvious signs like cages and shady dudes with guns, but I’d expect a man of the world like Kraft - if he even stops to think about it - would recognize that a dingy spot in a mall where women of that age where giving cheap handjobs with surprising turnover might implicate trafficking.

Obviously, it’s always a concern with porn and prostitution. But I’d think the 10k a night escort from Illinois with a BA is less likely to be a trafficking victim than the women Kraft worked with.
 
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snowmanny

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Is that a trustworthy source? Have we actually seen the names of the women Kraft was working with?
I have no idea if it’s accurate. I wouldn’t take much of anything leaked in this case at face value.
I was posing a hypothetical but it probably does make more sense to wait for actual data.
 

Rovin Romine

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Is that a trustworthy source? Have we actually seen the names of the women Kraft was working with?
Yes. The affidavit has their names and DOBs. Their own arrest forms (should they have been arrested) will have more information, including their relationship to the business(es) involved, where they live, the kinds of cars they drive, etc.

While I’m not sure whether it makes any difference legally or morally or any which way whether the women involved were “trafficked” or not, I’m curious as to how Kraft “must have known” they were trafficked (as maintained by some here), if, as has been reported, they weren’t?

Ed: https://www.google.com/amp/s/thebiglead.com/2019/02/26/robert-kraft-prostitutes-not-trafficked/amp/
Regarding an ignorant John's criminal liability, no, not really.

Morally - it depends. Human trafficking is real - and it does not have to be about immigrants crossing borders. At its core, trafficking is about domination and control - and it becomes criminal instead of garden variety when a crime is committed. Obviously, prostitution classically lends itself to this.

So in terms of Kraft's morality - Kraft knew it was illegal. That should be enough as a first cut. If there's a credible argument that in this particular circumstance, Kraft likely knew the situation so well that he was certain he was doing something illegal, but not immoral, well, I haven't heard it yet.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Thanks for the info on the affidavits, I hadn't looked at them that carefully.

Not sure this is enough info to assure he wasn't dealing with trafficked workers, and of course he knew he was breaking the law, so he deserves the appropriate punishment.

I wonder if he considered the possibility the women at the spa were there against their will as he has supported programs fighting human trafficking both directly and thru his Endowed chairs at universities
 

InsideTheParker

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Boy, quite a busy day that was for Mr Kraft;

Brunch at the club
Pick up my lucky dress shirt at the dry cleaners
Get my sausage smoked at the strip mall rub and tug
Hop a plane to KC for the AFCCG

77 must be the new 65 for sure...……………………...
I could get so much more done if I had a chauffeur taking me everywhere and didn't actually have to lift a hand!
 

shoosh77

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First, “worked with” is a nice turn of phrase.

I don’t think anyone expects obvious signs like cages and shady dudes with guns, but I’d expect a man of the world like Kraft - if he even stops to think about it - would recognize that a dingy spot in a mall where women of that age where giving cheap handjobs with surprising turnover might implicate trafficking.

Obviously, it’s always a concern with porn and prostitution. But I’d think the 10k a night escort from Illinois with a BA is less likely to be a trafficking victim than the women Trump worked with.
Flag on the play. You said Trump.
 

bakahump

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JMHO but I think some are over playing the "Dingy Mall Massage Parlor" aspect.

I think "a mall setting" could easily lend itself to Kraft thinking that these Women were there by choice. Probably with a welcoming "manager" (likely female). As opposed to a back alley or street walker deal with a tough intermediary, Or a rougher looking standalone building. Both of which might have perked his antenna (no pun...).

Is he wrong and did he break a law? Yup and he should pay for that crime. But the Human trafficking aspect (and character assassination it entails) irks me.
Yes I understand Trafficking happens and LE should do all it can to prevent it.
Based on RRs suggestion I have been reading about this issue and talking to some in LE who should be in the know. As of yet i have not seen nor heard anything that changes my opinion that Johns are the only or even primary enemy to tackle. Certainly not in regards to Trafficking.

One LE friend suggested that I should be discerning about my Asian or Mexican restaurant choices if Trafficking is a concern.

Finally there is the Amnesty International call to decriminalize all sex workers to make it safer. While I am not sure yet if thats necessarily a good Idea, I will say if some are calling for that at a Macro level, then at a Micro Level a Rub and Tug in a Mall probably was a relatively better/Safer option for many of these women then the options they might face now. I doubt they will be getting out (or often being let off completely) and getting Cashier or Paralegal jobs despite the support programs offered. Will they gravitate back to the sex trade? Everything I have read so far seems to say that yes a vast majority do. If thats true they may end up in a worse situation then a Mall given 100 handys to Kraft.

Full discloser IDK shit, but I am reading and learning that its a pretty fuzzy subject about which most people DKS.
 

LoweTek

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A few days ago I spoke to someone I have known a long time who is very familiar with the business. She is a long time Asian spa owner. She says trafficked Asian Massage Therapists are actually very, very rare. She said there are so many women who want to come to the U.S. for the money and they know exactly what they are getting into. She added the reason some "live" at the business is to save money because most of them are here on temporary work visas and want to maximize the money they bring or send back home before they have to return.

And she also confirmed the majority of the Asian Spas as well as non-Asian privately owned spas and most privately practicing therapists (with the exception being franchise places like Massage Envy or Hand N Stone - though there are exceptions in those also) are happily providing "extras," some providing a longer list of them than others.

She says law enforcement looks the other way unless there are neighbor complaints mostly because it's usually victimless and they pretty well know they can never stop it.

My comment: the theater these law enforcement agencies put on with the press, repeatedly using the phrase "human trafficking," was embarrassing given the facts do not seem to indicate any trafficking was going on. The term gets undue play and attention of course because nobody approves of it and the press will sensationalize it every time. It makes both the press and law enforcement look foolish.

Final comment from the Spa Owner I know, she is extremely resentful of law enforcement associating Asian Spas with human trafficking. "It almost never happens," she said.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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A few days ago I spoke to someone I have known a long time who is very familiar with the business. She is a long time Asian spa owner. She says trafficked Asian Massage Therapists are actually very, very rare. She said there are so many women who want to come to the U.S. for the money and they know exactly what they are getting into. She added the reason some "live" at the business is to save money because most of them are here on temporary work visas and want to maximize the money they bring or send back home before they have to return.

And she also confirmed the majority of the Asian Spas as well as non-Asian privately owned spas and most privately practicing therapists (with the exception being franchise places like Massage Envy or Hand N Stone - though there are exceptions in those also) are happily providing "extras," some providing a longer list of them than others.

She says law enforcement looks the other way unless there are neighbor complaints mostly because it's usually victimless and they pretty well know they can never stop it.

My comment: the theater these law enforcement agencies put on with the press, repeatedly using the phrase "human trafficking," was embarrassing given the facts do not seem to indicate any trafficking was going on. The term gets undue play and attention of course because nobody approves of it and the press will sensationalize it every time. It makes both the press and law enforcement look foolish.

Final comment from the Spa Owner I know, she is extremely resentful of law enforcement associating Asian Spas with human trafficking. "It almost never happens," she said.
Not to be a jerk, or impinge your friend, but did you expect her just to say ‘yeah, we bring them in on cargo ships with our towels..’?
 

Marciano490

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Not to be a jerk, or impinge your friend, but did you expect her just to say ‘yeah, we bring them in on cargo ships with our towels..’?
Exactly. I went to a masseuse once who bemoaned how everyone asks her for happy endings and how she views massage as an art and science.

Later, she was fired for getting off half the country club.
 

snowmanny

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Exactly. I went to a masseuse once who bemoaned how everyone asks her for happy endings and how she views massage as an art and science.

Later, she was fired for getting off half the country club.
By “half of the country club” do you mean Eliot from Jordan’s Furniture?
 

Marciano490

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Kinda curious about the thinking behind this? I guess for dudes ordering prostitutes to the room?

 

Vinho Tinto

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Kinda curious about the thinking behind this? I guess for dudes ordering prostitutes to the room?
Can also be a warning to higher end escorts who may be using the hotel as their home base of operation. Similar to casinos who keep an eye out for escorts who are hanging out in the clubs and game floor.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Kinda curious about the thinking behind this? I guess for dudes ordering prostitutes to the room?

That is interesting. Do they have a spa? Maybe it’s a statement — no handjobs here. I actually wonder how legit spas handle this issue. There’s probably a whole code of signals that get exchanged and probably lots of legit massage people who get propositioned all the time.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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At this point you probably have to assume there is going to be a decent sized fine, suspension for half the season and probably a loss of a pick somewhere. Not sure it would be a 1st but it would probably be more than a 6th if they did it. Personally this isn't as bad as Irsay unless Kraft knew about the sex traffic ring. However the NFL will 100 percent come down harder on the Patriots for this because they are the Patriots.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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There's no precedent for loss of a pick since this wasn't an on-field competition issue.

Irsay supplied drugs to his GF who then OD'd and died, and two weeks later got DUI'd with 30K in cash and a trunkfull of drugs in the car. 6 games and a fine, no loss of pick. I'd expect similar here.
 

Bellhorn

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That is interesting. Do they have a spa? Maybe it’s a statement — no handjobs here. I actually wonder how legit spas handle this issue. There’s probably a whole code of signals that get exchanged and probably lots of legit massage people who get propositioned all the time.
The place I go in Boston addresses this very directly as part of the terms of service. Something to the effect of “if you try any funny stuff, you will be immediately kicked out and never allowed back”.