Terry Coming Up Rozes

[Montana Fan]

Other teams definitely should be discounting for Brad at this point. However, I think Rozier is a bit easier to project outside of the Celtics, since they don't do much schematically to accomodate him specifically, he's versatile defensively, and his 3-point shot seems real. I think Smart also would be roughly the same guy on a lot of teams.

Ya' think? IMHO playing with a Point Center in a well executed scheme will not be easily replicated by most other teams. Rozier is able to freelance since he has Al and Smart to also handle the ball and run the offense as well as playing alongside good alternate scoring options in Brown and Tatum. I still see Rozier as a 2 guard or maybe a combo guard since he can be depended on to share ball handling responsibilities. I don't see him as a lead guard in the Kyrie mold. His value is very high and I think it's because of how well he fits into Brad's scheme. I think DA will flip him if Kyrie and Hayward are healthy and then he will resign Smart.

 

[DJnVa]

Guess who had 0 turnovers today?

 

[JCizzle]

Guess who had 0 turnovers today?

After a slow start, he finally put it together on the road. I think he'll always be streaky Terry to some extent, but I love the kid.

 

[The Big Red Kahuna]

Guess who had 0 turnovers today?

Fultz?

 

[chilidawg]

After a slow start, he finally put it together on the road. I think he'll always be streaky Terry to some extent, but I love the kid.

His home road splits weren't dramatic in the regular season, so it's not surprising that he had a good game on the road. Same true for the team as a whole.

 

[twothousandone]

There is growing agreement in the Cheesehead thread that lack of experience is hurting the Sixers. If that's true, doesn't it suggest that moving Rozier for a pick is a step back, at least in the back-up PG role, and also in whatever role that guy drafted fills? Irving & Hayward will bring experience. so it may not be a net negative, but moving Rozier seems unlikely to benefit next year's team, so it has to be a move for two/three years out, at least. Which kind of points to Horford's back-up/successor. I'm not sure I see that guy at 15/16/17.

 

[Red Averages]

Moving him for a pick - let’s say it’s Bomba - fills a need and extends their horizon of a cheap asset for several years. That’s likely a far bigger impact than keeping a bench PG to play 15-20 min in the playoffs.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Has the idea of Smart and Rozier over Kyrie long-term become a legit thought? The money would probably about even out. Kyrie is obviously a more consistent scorer, but Terry is better at everything else and doesn’t have the knee concerns. Plus you get Smart off the bench.

probably not, but I don’t see how Danny and Brad don’t at least discuss it this offseason. Good problem to have.

 

[Red Averages]

I feel like people are beginning to forget how good Kyrie actually is.

 

[Devizier]

Like the back of a Volkswagon?

Now that, my friend, is an archaic reference.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

I feel like people are beginning to forget how good Kyrie actually is.

I was just discussing that with a friend. People need to watch a Kyrie highlight reel. He'll open up the floor for everyone.

 

[Red Averages]

I was just discussing that with a friend. People need to watch a Kyrie highlight reel. He'll open up the floor for everyone.

Yes, and he causes issues with his pick and roll game that Rozier does not. He also has the ability to generate offense when he gets the ball with 5 seconds on the shot clock, that we are missing now. Our dependance on the 3 falling is much higher with him out, which is why we get this road/home split. In '19 space the floor with Hayward/Brown and run Kyrie pick and rolls with Al/Tatum to create mismatches. That's a much bigger difference than Rozier. And I am a huge Rozier fan.

 

[amarshal2]

Has the idea of Smart and Rozier over Kyrie long-term become a legit thought? The money would probably about even out. Kyrie is obviously a more consistent scorer, but Terry is better at everything else and doesn’t have the knee concerns. Plus you get Smart off the bench.

probably not, but I don’t see how Danny and Brad don’t at least discuss it this offseason. Good problem to have.

They’re going to be plenty deep. I think the goal should be acquiring top end talent to take on the best teams in the playoffs not building a Toronto style regular season roster.

 

[Red Averages]

Acquiring top end talent.... and extending the life of this run. Getting a potential top ten pick for each of the next two/three years (by trading Rozier), SAC pick, MEM pick to add to Brown/Tatum and the established vets is the best way to go about ensuring this isn't just a 3-4 year run, but instead can be a Patriots style dynasty complete with the GOAT coach/GM.

 

[DJnVa]

Has the idea of Smart and Rozier over Kyrie long-term become a legit thought? The money would probably about even out. Kyrie is obviously a more consistent scorer, but Terry is better at everything else.

Except for scoring Terry Rozier is better at everything else than Kyrie Irving?

 

[Red Averages]

I like the contradiction of Rozier is in Kyrie's league, yet we should trade Kyrie because he'll get far more in a trade, despite being significantly more expensive, coming off an injury and only being marginally better than Rozier (to those making the argument). It's ok to have a high opinion of Rozier and realize Kyrie is a really, really good player who will mean a lot to the Celtics for the next 5+ years. Kyrie is only 2 years older than Rozier. He isn't an asset you trade when you're trying to build a dynasty.

 

[Big John]

Suppose the Celtics get past Cleveland this year and either beat Golden State or lose a hard-fought final, with Rozier playing well throughout. Would that make folks more or less willing to make a Kyrie trade?

 

[DJnVa]

Neither, because I'm about as certain as I can be that neither Kyrie nor Hayward are being traded. They are the foundations.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Has the idea of Smart and Rozier over Kyrie long-term become a legit thought? The money would probably about even out. Kyrie is obviously a more consistent scorer, but Terry is better at everything else and doesn’t have the knee concerns. Plus you get Smart off the bench.

probably not, but I don’t see how Danny and Brad don’t at least discuss it this offseason. Good problem to have.

So Terry is the better playmaker and ball handler too? Pass whatever you are smoking this way. The only thing Terry does better than Kyrie is defense.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

For the offense to really hum, it needs Kyrie. Rozier takes care of the ball, but he’s not much of a passer. He doesn’t have nearly the vision on simple pick and pops with Horford, for example.

Where Kyrie will find the seam between defenders or hit him with a behind the back (either hand), Terry typically needs to stop and turn all the way back toward the perimeter to see Al and complete that pass, slowing the whole thing down and giving the D more time to recover and providing Al less of a desperate closeout to attack. A lot of that is really subtle body and ball positioning that Rozier doesn’t have, plus Kyrie is such a ridiculous threat to score that it opens plays like this up even more.

With the current personnel, the offense is still more geared toward getting guys in advantageous 1 on 1 situations over the lightning fast ball movement I believe Ainge and Stevens envisioned when they put this team together.

 

[Montana Fan]

Neither, because I'm about as certain as I can be that neither Kyrie nor Hayward are being traded. They are the foundations.

B,b,b,but, would you keep Jayson or Jaylen? Oh, someone has done that one too. Y'know what? Al or Baynes?

 

[Ed Hillel]

I like the contradiction of Rozier is in Kyrie's league, yet we should trade Kyrie because he'll get far more in a trade, despite being significantly more expensive, coming off an injury and only being marginally better than Rozier (to those making the argument). It's ok to have a high opinion of Rozier and realize Kyrie is a really, really good player who will mean a lot to the Celtics for the next 5+ years. Kyrie is only 2 years older than Rozier. He isn't an asset you trade when you're trying to build a dynasty.

Kyrie is obviously the superior player to Rozier, but Smart is no slouch. He means a lot to the team. The idea will be to replace him with cheaper vets chasing rings, but easier said than done I think.

They’ll probably trade Rozier if they can get a top 15 pick, though.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Has the idea of Smart and Rozier over Kyrie long-term become a legit thought? The money would probably about even out. Kyrie is obviously a more consistent scorer, but Terry is better at everything else and doesn’t have the knee concerns. Plus you get Smart off the bench.

Joning the chorus here, Rozier has an edge in defense and athleticism. Kyrie is better at everything else, and markedly so in scoring and ballhandling.

 

[DJnVa]

All that said, Rozier has been a revelation and definitely someone you want to go to battle with. Dude is bad ass.

 

[chilidawg]

Joning the chorus here, Rozier has an edge in defense and athleticism. Kyrie is better at everything else, and markedly so in scoring and ballhandling.

Post Season Terry has similar shooting and assist percentages to Kyrie this season. Not the same volume scoring wise, but the other numbers are pretty good.

 

[Big John]

If someone offered a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft for Kyrie (or for any player on the Celtics roster other than Tatum) I would consider it. I would also have to consider Kyrie for Kawhi if I thought Kahwi was 100% healthy. Is Rozier as good as Kyrie? Not even close.. But Rozier and Smart are good enough if the team can add an elite young rim protector.

 

[TripleOT]

The fact that we can even have a debate about Kyrie versus Rozier is an incredible complement to TR.

If Rozier plays at the same high level deep into the ECF or Finals, he's got to be looked at as a franchise PG by at least one PG needy team.

 

[Red Averages]

If someone offered a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft for Kyrie (or for any player on the Celtics roster other than Tatum) I would consider it. I would also have to consider Kyrie for Kawhi if I thought Kahwi was 100% healthy. Is Rozier as good as Kyrie? Not even close.. But Rozier and Smart are good enough if the team can add an elite young rim protector.

None of this is thinking about the current situation the correct way, but maybe that's just my opinion.

 

[Big John]

Well, I'm influenced by the fact that Kyrie has a huge payday coming up that will make it extremely difficult to maintain a deep roster. Obviously depth is less important in the playoffs, so long as everyone stays healthy.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Post Season Terry has similar shooting and assist percentages to Kyrie this season. Not the same volume scoring wise, but the other numbers are pretty good.

I'm talking about who is a better player - not who can put up similar shooting and assist percentages in a limited sample.

 

[Red Averages]

Well, I'm influenced by the fact that Kyrie has a huge payday coming up that will make it extremely difficult to maintain a deep roster. Obviously depth is less important in the playoffs, so long as everyone stays healthy.

Please elaborate on who will be forced to leave because of Kyrie. Outside of Rozier, which is the entire point of the trade Rozier piece that we are discussing in depth.

If you cannot come up with this info, can you agree to stop making stuff up, which seems to be occurring in multiple threads in shockingly high volume/quality ratios?

 

[4 6 3 DP]

Given that the Celtics have a very good chance of making the eastern conference finals I am not thinking too much yet about next season.

But obviously the starting 5 has Kyrie/Gordon/Jaylen/Jayson/Al. The only question is what else you can afford or would be better served setting up the overall rotation.

I'd love Rozier to be part of that rotation because he's talented as hell. I suspect Danny and Brad will get this one right like they've been doing an awful lot of lately.

 

[DJnVa]

The fact that we can even have a debate about Kyrie versus Rozier is an incredible complement to TR..

I love Rozier, but to be honest, we really can't have this debate. It's SoSH though, we've debated stupider things.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I love Rozier, but to be honest, we really can't have this debate. It's SoSH though, we've debated stupider things.

The debate is not Kyrie vs. Rozier, it’s Kyrie vs. Rozier AND Marcus Smart. I’m not sure why people keep shifting it to Kyrie vs. just Rozier.

I will also add that I think Rozier has more room to grow and Kyrie basically already is who he’s going to be, so I expect the gap to close a bit. And, as I mentioned, hard not to be concerned about Kyrie’s knee, plus the dude’s kind of weird and I worry a bit about his personality long-term.

 

[DJnVa]

The debate is not Kyrie vs. Rozier, it’s Kyrie vs. Rozier AND Marcus Smart. I’m not sure why people keep shifting it to Kyrie vs. just Rozier.

Because we can keep Kyrie and Smart too. Why are you assuming we lose Rozier and Smart? We might, but we don't have to.

The actual argument should be Rozier vs. Smart.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Because we can keep Kyrie and Smart too. Why are you assuming we lose Rozier and Smart? We might, but we don't have to.

The actual argument should be Rozier vs. Smart.

I doubt this team can keep Smart, or they would have struck a deal before the season. I’m sticking to my preseason prediction that Smart gets at least one huge offer (4 years, over 60 million). Maybe from Philly, if their other options fall through. Boston can’t match that.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Because we can keep Kyrie and Smart too. Why are you assuming we lose Rozier and Smart? We might, but we don't have to.

The actual argument should be Rozier vs. Smart.

Yeah, I think the internal debate has been Rozier vs Smart, and it seems that Rozier has the trade value while Smart has the complementary value to the team. I love T-Rozay, but he's the odd man out. However, he, coupled with draft pick(s) is going to net something good. And what Smart offers is a key part of a championship team.

 

[nighthob]

I doubt this team can keep Smart, or they would have struck a deal before the season. I’m sticking to my preseason prediction that Smart gets at least one huge offer (4 years, over 60 million). Maybe from Philly, if their other options fall through. Boston can’t match that.

Clearly what Philly is missing is a guy that can’t shoot the ball.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I doubt this team can keep Smart, or they would have struck a deal before the season. I’m sticking to my preseason prediction that Smart gets at least one huge offer (4 years, over 60 million). Maybe from Philly, if their other options fall through. Boston can’t match that.

maybe, but Ainge is playing it the right way. Smart is a guy who'll always be somewhat limited by being a terrible shooter, not a guy to overpay, so let him hit the market in a money short offseason see what he gets, and either match, let him walk, or help swing a S&T. That's the luxury of having so much backcourt depth and picks still coming in.
I don't see the team with cap space who gives him 15M a year,
Lakers and Sixers already have PGs who can't shoot.
Hawks seems unlikely.
Basically leaves you with the Kings and Bulls.

 

[nighthob]

I’d say they probably aren’t in the market for Smart, either, given that they’re already rolling with young PGs. Paying $15 million for a backup PG is how a team ends up in cap hell.

 

[BigSoxFan]

I’d say they probably aren’t in the market for Smart, either, given that they’re already rolling with young PGs. Paying $15 million for a backup PG is how a team ends up in cap hell.

You’d think old friend Avery Bradley would be a better fit. Good defender, solid shooter, and is best playing off the ball, which they need with Simmons.

 

[Ed Hillel]

There will be a GM somewhere who falls in love with Smart’s tenacity and wants the edge he brings and pays him out the ass.

I suppose I’m arguing against myself now, because Danny shouldn’t and won’t do that. So keeping him is only an option at cheaper money he’d stick around for anyway.

 

[Big John]

Please elaborate on who will be forced to leave because of Kyrie. Outside of Rozier, which is the entire point of the trade Rozier piece that we are discussing in depth.

If you cannot come up with this info, can you agree to stop making stuff up, which seems to be occurring in multiple threads in shockingly high volume/quality ratios?

It depends on how much luxury tax ownership is willing to pay. If you look 2 years out to 2019, if they give Kyrie a max extension the Celtics will be paying roughly 92-93 million dollars to three players, assuming that Horford opts in.

Tatum and Brown will cost another 15 million combined. If they plan to use the 2019 Sacramento and Memphis picks, that's at least 5 million more. Today the tax threshhold is $123M. Obviously we don't know what it will be in 2019. but potentially that could leave around $10-12M for everyone else, including Smart, Rozier (who will be a restricted free agent in 2019), Morris and Baynes. The others (Theis, Yabusele, Nader, etc.) could become luxury tax casualties.

And looking beyond 2019, if they plan to pay market value to Horford and Brown in 2020 and to Tatum in 2021, they could be up against the repeater tax.

This salary info is based on Hoopshype's numbers. There are probably better numbers around that account for cap holds and all of that, but I think these are in the ballpark. And let me add that the 92-93M number for Kyrie, Hayward and Horford assumes that Kyrie can get 30% of the cap, when in fact he may qualify for 35%, so add another $5M+ to that.

 

[chilidawg]

Clearly what Philly is missing is a guy that can’t shoot the ball.

Nice that someone is paying attention.

 

[Sprowl]

Joning the chorus here, Rozier has an edge in defense and athleticism. Kyrie is better at everything else, and markedly so in scoring and ballhandling.

Rozier is also better at rebounding, affordability and durability than Irving. I wouldn’t count on either Irving or Hayward returning to peak performance next year. The Celtics’ next championship may come from an all-Ainge-draftee lineup.

I also think that casting Rozier as a backup point guard is myopic. Irving and Rozier play very well together because Rozier is long enough to guard wings (arm length, anyone?) and Kyrie benefits from early-shot-clock assistance on ball handling so that he has the energy to work his last second shot creation.

 

[Soxfan in Fla]

Post Season Terry has similar shooting and assist percentages to Kyrie this season. Not the same volume scoring wise, but the other numbers are pretty good.

It seems many here forget just how good Kyrie is at creating his own shot and finishing at the rim despite his size. He is truly elite at both. As good as Terry has become, he is not in Kyrie’s league in those two categories. His ability to get to the basket if things are breaking down is amazing.

 

[nighthob]

I also think that casting Rozier as a backup point guard is myopic. Irving and Rozier play very well together because Rozier is long enough to guard wings (arm length, anyone?) and Kyrie benefits from early-shot-clock assistance on ball handling so that he has the energy to work his last second shot creation.

Rozier is a backup PG because he plays on a team with Kyrie Irving. And while Rozier can defend guys taller than himself, as we saw with Avery Bradley, once they get to 6’5” or above, despite the arms, they just make plays over the shorter player.

No one’s arguing that Rozier isn’t an NBA starter, that’s actually the problem. He is a legit starting NBA point guard that’s going to get paid like one. But likely not by Boston.

 

[Big John]

I don't see the team with cap space who gives him 15M a year,
Lakers and Sixers already have PGs who can't shoot.
Hawks seems unlikely.
Basically leaves you with the Kings and Bulls.

Dallas, where Yogi Ferrell played 30 mpg last year. Put Smart next to Dennis Smith.
It's Smart's hometown, and where his mother, to whom he is close, has cancer.

 

[InstaFace]

Dallas, where Yogi Ferrell played 30 mpg last year. Put Smart next to Dennis Smith.
It's Smart's hometown, and where his mother, to whom he is close, has cancer.

Wait, remind me again why we want to get rid of Marcus Smart? Or why he'd want to leave the Sheltering Stratagems of Stevens? He is the 3rd guard on a championship-contender team that will likely start two all-star guards next year, is fully capable of starting, and is a swiss army knife of off-ball skills.

The only contingency we need to plan for is if some other team makes him a Godfather Offer that we're entirely unwilling to match.

 

[DJnVa]

Wait, remind me again why we want to get rid of Marcus Smart? Or why he'd want to leave the Sheltering Stratagems of Stevens?.

Players aren't indentured servants any longer. No one wants to get rid of him, but he's going ot be able to explore the market. We're not going to be able to pay Kyrie, Rozier, AND Smart. And since Kyrie is going nowhere, all discussions lead to Smart vs. Rozier.