Tennis 2018

The Needler

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Dec 7, 2016
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Fortunately we have a previous date for a deflated ball's. When is that date for receiving a violation for coaching?
They don’t keep the stats. And for women, the coaching rule is not in effect for the great majority of events - pretty much only majors. So what is it you’re looking for? If you think it’s going to be five years ago, it’s not. If you think most instances will be in news reports, they won’t. Nadal gets it called. Zverev got one called in the French this year. Use your google. Or don’t.
 

BigMike

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Sep 26, 2000
21,453
It's a shame sexism can be covered up with an edit.
Rarely do i moderate anything, but move on. He posted something he almost immediately deleted it. And honestly I think a delete button for a stupid comment is a very welcome thing (and yes I have the power to view the history)
 

grandsalami

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Aug 20, 2017
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They don’t keep the stats. And for women, the coaching rule is not in effect for the great majority of events - pretty much only majors. So what is it you’re looking for? If you think it’s going to be five years ago, it’s not. If you think most instances will be in news reports, they won’t. Nadal gets it called. Zverev got one called in the French this year. Use your google. Or don’t.
Ok, Zverev, which was a ridiculous call. I'll take your word that it happens all the time though.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Sep 12, 2003
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They don’t keep the stats. And for women, the coaching rule is not in effect for the great majority of events - pretty much only majors. So what is it you’re looking for? If you think it’s going to be five years ago, it’s not. If you think most instances will be in news reports, they won’t. Nadal gets it called. Zverev got one called in the French this year. Use your google. Or don’t.
Nadal from 2010?

http://en.espn.co.uk/tennis/sport/story/31805.html

And the Zverez one was dubious at best... But, yes I guess it is called randomly
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Rarely do i moderate anything, but move on. He posted something he almost immediately deleted it. And honestly I think a delete button for a stupid comment is a very welcome thing (and yes I have the power to view the history)
Isn't that part of the problem? He still thinks it. He thought it was board worthy... But gets a reset because his sexiest post was deleted in enough time? Laughable.
 

BigMike

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Ok, Zverev, which was a ridiculous call. I'll take your word that it happens all the time though.
It certainly happens often enough, and generally leads to nothing more than a warning, so it is barely a blip, which this should and would have been if Serena didn't make it an issue

Several players were fined at Wimbledon for coaching, I am not sure, but i assume the fine came after getting a warning during the match.
 

BigMike

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Sep 26, 2000
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I missed the meltdown in live action, as I was out coaching today

I must admit though as I was watching it, I could almost see the Nike Ad being cut using the clips from Serena.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I missed the meltdown in live action, as I was out coaching today

I must admit though as I was watching it, I could almost see the Nike Ad being cut using the clips from Serena.
Oh man, you must have been so triggered. That must have been hard for you.

Whether or not this rule was applied fairly or if it mattered in this match... It should be re-evalued or completely changed.
 

swiftaw

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Jan 31, 2009
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My understanding is first infraction is a warning, second is a point penalty, third is a game penalty. So she got a warning for coaching, then a point penalty for the racquet incident, then the game penalty for verbal abuse. We can debate the coaching call all day long but if that were the only incident it wouldn’t have cost her any points.
 

swiftaw

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FYI, I believe Kuznetsova got a violation for coaching at Wimbledon either this year or last
 

Matty005

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Aug 28, 2005
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I missed the meltdown in live action, as I was out coaching today

I must admit though as I was watching it, I could almost see the Nike Ad being cut using the clips from Serena.
Have any tennis people spoken out saying Serena was in the wrong yet? Brad Gilbert, Billy Jean King, Andy Roddick, Patrick McEnroe, Chris Everet, Mardy Fish, Mary Jo Fernandez have all stated they think she was treated unfairly.
 

OilCanShotTupac

Sunny von Bulow
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Jan 10, 2004
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I am a casual tennis fan. I have never heard of the rule against being coached. Can you explain it to me? What is the problem with being coached? I don't get it.
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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I am a casual tennis fan. I have never heard of the rule against being coached. Can you explain it to me? What is the problem with being coached? I don't get it.
That's what I'm wondering. I'm a "why?" person- wanting to know the rationale behind things, especially those things I find silly or don't understand. Why in the world would you not allow someone to receive coaching during the match?
 

thestardawg

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Have any tennis people spoken out saying Serena was in the wrong yet? Brad Gilbert, Billy Jean King, Andy Roddick, Patrick McEnroe, Chris Everet, Mardy Fish, Mary Jo Fernandez have all stated they think she was treated unfairly.
What did you expect? They either have to work with her or she's a friend. of course they are going to take her side over an official.

We have no idea on the coaching violation. The umpire had issued warnings to players both male and female for coaching in the past. perhaps this was ongoing during the match. We have no idea. I think it was ticky tacky but under the code it was a violation.

The racquet smash is a code violation period. Sometimes if the racquet isn't broken it's not called. When a racquet is demolished like that it is a pretty easy call and here's where it went off the rails. Serena, instead of keeping her cool couldn't get over violation 1, thinking she was being accused of cheating. No, your coach was attempting to signal you from the player's box. It didnt matter if she didn't see him (and she clearly did) it's not an assault on her character (she has a DAUGHTER you know. She drives a DODGE STRATUS), it's a code violation. Should the official have called it. Probably not, but he did and you have to be mindful now of the code.

The code violation for verbal abuse. You don't need to say a magic word for getting a violation for this. This was ongoing for 20 minutes? You the player already have racked up a point penalty. You are aware the next penalty is a game. Shut up. Folks talking about men who say much worse. Both men AND women have said worse. The difference is it hasn't been said with two code violations already on their record. She questioned his integrity among other things. She had a meltdown on him on multiple changeovers. It was deserved.

This is Serena Williams. The same person who threatened to kill a linesperson by choking them with a tennis ball for daring to call a foot fault against her. (She accrued a point penalty here, which actually ended up being a match penalty as it was match point for her opponent at the time). She had a meltdown when she screamed during a point, causing a hinderance, and losing the point via the official two years later vs. Sam Stosur. This caused another meltdown. She's a well known asshole on the tour. As Sloane Stephens how Serena treated her for years.

And she wasn't going to win. While the second set was close, Osaka had just broken back, had the momentum, and wasn't acting like a lunatic on the court. Osaka played great tennis, dictating most points, pushing Serena back on her back foot and passing Serena multiple times at net. It's a shame when Naomi Osaka looks back many years from now that she derived zero pleasure from her first slam victory.
 

Matty005

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What did you expect? They either have to work with her or she's a friend. of course they are going to take her side over an official.

We have no idea on the coaching violation. The umpire had issued warnings to players both male and female for coaching in the past. perhaps this was ongoing during the match. We have no idea. I think it was ticky tacky but under the code it was a violation.

The racquet smash is a code violation period. Sometimes if the racquet isn't broken it's not called. When a racquet is demolished like that it is a pretty easy call and here's where it went off the rails. Serena, instead of keeping her cool couldn't get over violation 1, thinking she was being accused of cheating. No, your coach was attempting to signal you from the player's box. It didnt matter if she didn't see him (and she clearly did) it's not an assault on her character (she has a DAUGHTER you know. She drives a DODGE STRATUS), it's a code violation. Should the official have called it. Probably not, but he did and you have to be mindful now of the code.

The code violation for verbal abuse. You don't need to say a magic word for getting a violation for this. This was ongoing for 20 minutes? You the player already have racked up a point penalty. You are aware the next penalty is a game. Shut up. Folks talking about men who say much worse. Both men AND women have said worse. The difference is it hasn't been said with two code violations already on their record. She questioned his integrity among other things. She had a meltdown on him on multiple changeovers. It was deserved.

This is Serena Williams. The same person who threatened to kill a linesperson by choking them with a tennis ball for daring to call a foot fault against her. (She accrued a point penalty here, which actually ended up being a match penalty as it was match point for her opponent at the time). She had a meltdown when she screamed during a point, causing a hinderance, and losing the point via the official two years later vs. Sam Stosur. This caused another meltdown. She's a well known asshole on the tour. As Sloane Stephens how Serena treated her for years.

And she wasn't going to win. While the second set was close, Osaka had just broken back, had the momentum, and wasn't acting like a lunatic on the court. Osaka played great tennis, dictating most points, pushing Serena back on her back foot and passing Serena multiple times at net. It's a shame when Naomi Osaka looks back many years from now that she derived zero pleasure from her first slam victory.
I'm not going to go around in circles here because that has been what is happening the last two pages. But to say she is known as an asshole on tour is inaccurate. She is very good friends with two players (Woz and Azarenka) and I have not seen any comments otherwise from other players (talking the last 10 years here). I can't find any comments from players other than Sloane... and that is a whole other case.
 

Van Everyman

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I watched the highlights of this, the ceremony and the press conference and was actually pretty emotional watching it all. That said, I’ll admit that I wasn’t quite aware of the history here. I just watched the play against Clijsters a few years back at the US Open – it’s a little surreal as the same two officials come out to discuss it with her before Serena concedes the match and walks off.


Given all that, I think the perspective made by @thestardawg is probably more or less on the money. While the referee was probably overreacting, this isn’t the clear cut case of sexism and/or racism I felt watching this in (semi-)real time. But given the dynamic going on right now in general and moment we’re in, it’s hard to divine intent and understandable when we lean in that direction.

All that said, it’s hard to dispute that Serena handled the aftermath of this very well (and in real time). That didn’t seem staged or phony to me. To me, that’s probably the real teachable moment here: that we can lose our cool, conduct ourselves poorly and act emotionally but still find it within ourselves to demonstrate good sportsmanship when all is said and done.

People are complicated. They can be competitive, petty, emotional and gracious all at once. I think that’s what we saw here.
 

thestardawg

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I'm not going to go around in circles here because that has been what is happening the last two pages. But to say she is known as an asshole on tour is inaccurate. She is very good friends with two players (Woz and Azarenka) and I have not seen any comments otherwise from other players (talking the last 10 years here). I can't find any comments from players other than Sloane... and that is a whole other case.
Wow she has two friends. Amazing.
 

thestardawg

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I watched the highlights of this, the ceremony and the press conference and was actually pretty emotional watching it all. That said, I’ll admit that I wasn’t quite aware of the history here. I just watched the play against Clijsters a few years back at the US Open – it’s a little surreal as the same two officials come out to discuss it with her before Serena concedes the match and walks off.


Given all that, I think the perspective made by @thestardawg is probably more or less on the money. While the referee was probably overreacting, this isn’t the clear cut case of sexism and/or racism I felt watching this in (semi-)real time. But given the dynamic going on right now in general and moment we’re in, it’s hard to divine intent and understandable when we lean in that direction.

All that said, it’s hard to dispute that Serena handled the aftermath of this very well (and in real time). That didn’t seem staged or phony to me. To me, that’s probably the real teachable moment here: that we can lose our cool, conduct ourselves poorly and act emotionally but still find it within ourselves to demonstrate good sportsmanship when all is said and done.

People are complicated. They can be competitive, petty, emotional and gracious all at once. I think that’s what we saw here.
I do think she realized that this was all taking away from Osaka, someone who idolized her and just won her first slam. I do give Serena credit for that. But then I'll take it away from her claims of sexism after the match at the press conference. Has she taken any responsibility for herself yet? Not any. The player needs to be aware of the code of conduct. As someone who plays USTA I'm extremely aware of it, and Im a rec hacker. A pro is completely aware of the code. It's mind boggling that she allowed this to sink her chance at a 24th slam.
 

Matty005

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Wow she has two friends. Amazing.
That’s such a dumb take from what I said. Does Tom Brady have a bunch of friends in the NFL? Did Jordan in his days in the NBA? She is respected in the locker room (and not thought of as an asshole) and youre insane if you think otherwise.
 

InstaFace

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Sep 27, 2016
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I am a casual tennis fan. I have never heard of the rule against being coached. Can you explain it to me? What is the problem with being coached? I don't get it.
Derives from the ethos of it being a mano-a-mano sport. Should just be the athlete out there, thinking through their situation, making a plan and trying to execute.

The ATP (men's tour) has never allowed coaching during a match. The WTA instituted it a few years ago, and so now there are designated points at which a coach can be summoned by a participant and have them give a pep talk during a changeover or between sets. Lets the TV listen in and you hear stuff not that dissimilar from, say, an NBA coach's speech during a timeout. The ITF (who run the grand slams, and also the minor leagues of the sport for both genders, and are the sport's governing body a la FIFA) are quite stodgy, and don't allow this, nor have they accepted the WTA's pleas to make women's matches at grand slams best-3-out-of-5 sets, nor many other things.

I don't necessarily agree with their stance, but I do see it as a distinguishing point. How many other sports don't allow coaching during a match? I can't think of one. Though it's not like figure skaters miss their first 2 falls and then go over and ask about technique while the music is playing. I guess distance runners don't exactly have earpieces to discuss attack strategy during the marathon... but generally, I see coaching pretty much everywhere. Maybe tennis sees it as a way of appearing more traditional.
 

jon abbey

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Fencing (which I did seriously back in the day) has the same rule, and is also a one on one thing.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
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I'm not going to go around in circles here because that has been what is happening the last two pages. But to say she is known as an asshole on tour is inaccurate. She is very good friends with two players (Woz and Azarenka) and I have not seen any comments otherwise from other players (talking the last 10 years here). I can't find any comments from players other than Sloane... and that is a whole other case.
Yeah. TennisForum.com is the SoSH of women's tennis, I can tell you from years of reading there that while fans of most other players have petty reasons for resentment, and Sharapova fans take whatever chances they can to throw shade, Serena is pretty obviously both respected and liked near-universally on the tour (to varying degrees of course). The comparison to Tom Brady is fairly decent, but being a lot more outspoken and having a lot more personality. It's not like Tom hasn't said things he regrets in the heat of the moment either, but anyone who follows him knows that he's not an asshole, and in fact is incredibly gracious.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
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Sep 27, 2016
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If we (mostly) white males would like a differing but thoughtful perspective, here is The Atlantic on the subject - and reminding us of the numerous sexist incidents that permeate the tennis world as a matter of routine.

edit: don't care for The Atlantic? Here is WaPo.
 
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InstaFace

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Sep 27, 2016
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Good article by Pos (needs hardly be said), and halfway down he offers OCST and BaseballJones another answer to the "no coaching? WTF?" question.

There’s a sound reason for this, believe it or not, outdated as it might be. In a perfect world, you want a match to be one vs. one, a personal match of physical and emotional and mental. You want it to be a true duel — the sport is sometimes called bloodless boxing for that reason. The ideal is … well, the ideal in ALL sports as far as I’m concerned would be to get the coaches out as much as possible. I wish all quarterbacks had to call their own plays. I wish all catchers got to call all the pitches. I wish coaches were not allowed to call timeouts to draw up the final plays of games. It would be wonderful to give sports back to the players.

That’s not the world that we live in. It’s not right to say that tennis hasn’t gotten the memo — they’ve got it. They just keep refusing to open the envelope.

And this is the point that I think people are missing: Tennis players in 2018 use their coach’s box in ways that to a casual tennis fan probably seem a bit insane. (...continues from here)
 

The Needler

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Dec 7, 2016
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The way people are bending over backward to excuse Serena's behavior and villify Carlos Ramos is astonishing to me. The idea that calling the chair umpire a liar and a thief is not worthy of a code violation is crazytown, as is the idea that the same behavior in a man wouldn't have been called. Go to youtube and search tennis tantrums - there's a compilation for Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. The great majority of code violations called against them come nowhere close to the level of what Serena did yesterday.

And Serena has been pulling this "they hate me" nonsense for over a decade. When she threatened the tiny lineswoman that she would "shove this f**ng ball down her f***ing throat" in 2009, she said the same thing - "I'm sorry, but there's a lot of things that people say that are way worse."

 
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BigMike

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Sep 26, 2000
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We have no idea on the coaching violation. The umpire had issued warnings to players both male and female for coaching in the past. perhaps this was ongoing during the match. We have no idea. I think it was ticky tacky but under the code it was a violation.

The racquet smash is a code violation period. Sometimes if the racquet isn't broken it's not called. When a racquet is demolished like that it is a pretty easy call and here's where it went off the rails. Serena, instead of keeping her cool couldn't get over violation 1, thinking she was being accused of cheating. No, your coach was attempting to signal you from the player's box. It didnt matter if she didn't see him (and she clearly did) it's not an assault on her character (she has a DAUGHTER you know. She drives a DODGE STRATUS), it's a code violation. Should the official have called it. Probably not, but he did and you have to be mindful now of the code.

The code violation for verbal abuse. You don't need to say a magic word for getting a violation for this. This was ongoing for 20 minutes? You the player already have racked up a point penalty. You are aware the next penalty is a game. Shut up. Folks talking about men who say much worse. Both men AND women have said worse. The difference is it hasn't been said with two code violations already on their record. She questioned his integrity among other things. She had a meltdown on him on multiple changeovers. It was deserved.
This is where I am at.

Look the coaching one is a bit silly, it could be called all day in women's tennis and sometimes in men's.

But the reaction to the coaching warning was ridiculously over the top. It is a minor warning, a brief discussion with official sure, but the ruling is final, and largely meaningless. So why the over the top reaction. Why all the talk of accusing her of cheating when in fact no accusation of cheating ever occurred. I watched my 11PM news last night, and even on local news the announcer said "The referee accused Serena of cheating". The official accused her coach of coaching by sending signals, which the coach 100% agreed he did. But Serena went immediately to poor persecuted me mode. But it is completely meaningless, unless of course she then goes out an commits more rules violations, any one of which is about as rare as the coaching violation (and yet she managed to commit 2 more in the next half hour)

The racquet abuse penalty was an automatic, no choice for the ref. Maybe somehow she thought she was able to talk her way out of the warning earlier, but come on, she knew it had been issued. And as such she should have known that he decision to destroy her racket on would cost her a point at his point.

And the verbal about went on and on until such point she finally uttered the magic word that got her a 3rd rules violaiton
 

lars10

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I do think she realized that this was all taking away from Osaka, someone who idolized her and just won her first slam. I do give Serena credit for that. But then I'll take it away from her claims of sexism after the match at the press conference. Has she taken any responsibility for herself yet? Not any. The player needs to be aware of the code of conduct. As someone who plays USTA I'm extremely aware of it, and Im a rec hacker. A pro is completely aware of the code. It's mind boggling that she allowed this to sink her chance at a 24th slam.
I haven’t heard her apologize for losing her temper.. or should she not have to? Also, her speech when the booing was happening was completely self serving.. she spent a bit of time congratulating naomi, but the whole ‘we’ll get through this’ part seemed a tad much. And then to follow up by saying it’s racism or sexism... that may be true, but I don’t think this is a clear cut example. Do we have tons of examples of players throwing temper tantrums on the court and berating the ref who didn’t get penalized?
 

InstaFace

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Here is Karolina Pliskova, a top-10 player, a few months ago, using her racquet to damage the ump's chair immediately following a match. The ump said nothing at the time.


She was later fined "a 4-digit amount".
 

The Needler

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Dec 7, 2016
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Here is Karolina Pliskova, a top-10 player, a few months ago, using her racquet to damage the ump's chair immediately following a match. The ump said nothing at the time.


She was later fined "a 4-digit amount".
Immediately following a match? So what kind of penalty did you want the umpire to give? And I thought the claim was sexism. Is it racism? Or is it just everybody out to get Serena?
 

PaulinMyrBch

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MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
I hate to be this late to the party with a basic question. But explain the dynamic of the chair ump detecting the coaching. Is he focusing on the coaches for each player during the match? Does he watch both players and if he notices eye contact to her box, he starts to keep an eye on it? Or is there someone else assigned to this task that sends some sort of electronic message to alert him? Seems odd to me that a chair ump would have time to be monitoring mannerisms of coaches in the stands.
 

thestardawg

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I hate to be this late to the party with a basic question. But explain the dynamic of the chair ump detecting the coaching. Is he focusing on the coaches for each player during the match? Does he watch both players and if he notices eye contact to her box, he starts to keep an eye on it? Or is there someone else assigned to this task that sends some sort of electronic message to alert him? Seems odd to me that a chair ump would have time to be monitoring mannerisms of coaches in the stands.
It,looks to me he saw Serena looking over and then looked over to the players box and saw the coach giving signals and coaching.
 

The Needler

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Dec 7, 2016
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Sure, but a slap on the wrist. It’s just like after the 2009 meltdown, the Grand Slam Committee halved her fine and suspended her ban, provided she did t have any major incidents in the next two years.


But in an e-mail exchange, former touring pro Mary Carillo, a sports commentator with ESPN, questioned why it took tennis officials three months to come up with what she called a "cockamamie decision."

"Serena Williams physically threatened and verbally assaulted an official during one of the most watched tennis matches of 2009, and after three months of thoughtful, considered cogitation the Grand Slam Committee came up with 'Grand Slam Probation' and a 'suspended ban'?" Carillo wrote. "And half of what was deemed to be her fine? Boy, that ought to show everyone."
But of course, she did in 2011 with the “unattractive on the inside”meltdown, but the committee decided it wasn’t “major” in order to avoid the absolute shitshow that would have followed.

The reality is, Serena has been treated with kid gloves (as most superstars are), yet she’s convinced of her martyrdom.
 

BigMike

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Sure, but a slap on the wrist. It’s just like after the 2009 meltdown, the Grand Slam Committee halved her fine and suspended her ban, provided she did t have any major incidents in the next two years.




But of course, she did in 2011 with the “unattractive on the inside”meltdown, but the committee decided it wasn’t “major” in order to avoid the absolute shitshow that would have followed.

The reality is, Serena has been treated with kid gloves (as most superstars are), yet she’s convinced of her martyrdom.
Yes it is a slap in the wrist for an event where her payment was 1.85 million, but it is consistent with the fines that are given to other players for the same infractions. I don't think it would have been write to give her some penalties greater than what others receive for the same type of actions. (Coaching, Abuse of equipment, Abuse of Official) .
 

The Needler

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Dec 7, 2016
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Djokovic absolutely cruised through the first set, and was up a break in the second, but he’s started making a lot more errors and missing first serves, and the crowd’s gotten into it. If del Potro can win this tiebreak, smells like a 5-setter to me.
 

BigMike

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Del Po is gassed
Delpo always looks gassed. Not sure if his fitness is less than the other greats, or it just is his nature, but I have watched him in matches where he looks gassed in the second set, and then 2-3 hours later, he is still out there looking gassed in the 5th set

But Djoker is now serving for the title.
 

jon abbey

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Djokovic ties Sampras, incredible to do that with Fed and Nadal around for the entire time. These might be the three best players of all time, we are all witnesses.