Team USA 2024
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I'm not at the top of the cheering section for Kerr (or for Green), to be clear. I do think worth considering the possibility that getting what he has out of a complex personality (read: probable nutjob, albeit a very intelligent one) like Draymond Green is actually a sign Kerr is pretty effective at managing personalities, even acknowledging the obvious problems too. He absolutely enabled Green, and one can question that. But, the team likely never wins without Green and keeping him (and his pal Curry) on-board is mission-one even if it costs you other guys, seems to me.
It's a messy situation and questions are totally fair--- I'm just not sure how to determine the "what would someone else have done" path with Draymond. Strictly talent-wise, he correctly assessed that Green was more important than Poole. What impact that had on rest of team, people can debate...
Always good to remember that at the time it happened Kerr didn’t voice displeasure with Green, he wanted to know who leaked the video. Priorities…
I'd also put some blame on Kerr for allowing Draymond and his shit to drive Durant off the team. The answer for exactly why Durant left the Warriors has always been a bit hazy (and probably will be until all parties retire, and even then it might be unclear if there is disagreement), but more than once I've heard Durant talk about the incident with Draymond losing his shit on Durant, then NOBODY on the Warriors talking about it ever again and how uncomfortable that was. It's one thing to essentially choose Draymond over Poole, it's quite another to prioritize him over Kevin Durant. We can't give him credit as guy adept at managing personalities while not acknowledging the fact that arguably the best player he's ever coached left the team in his prime in large part because of a personality issue.
And everyone knows that a not insignificant amount of the blame for the Warriors losing in 2016 goes to Draymond again for his ball punch on Lebron and subsequent suspension. For all the credit Kerr gets (and deserves) for turning Draymond into arguably the best defender of his era (along with his other gifts), he absolutely deserves some blame for arguably allowing THREE different title defenses to be blown up for non-basketball reasons.
I don’t know what this means in regards to Kerr stating that his was a 2-year commitment. If this is meant to be questioning Kerr’s ability to manage personalities I’d say that keeping that team together under those circumstances is a feather in his cap.
Tahiti or Providence, RI are the front runners for my preferred free vacation spot next year.
Yea fantastic job.
Trying to say "Hey look it is Draymond Green" and act like Kerr is on the level of Phil Jackson or Pat Riley is ridiculous. Jackson dealt with real problems Rodman, Jordan, and Pippen. Shaq and Kobe wanted to murder each other. Shit you had players in the 80s trying to kill their coaches on cocaine binges. Draymond is a beast born of Kerr's inability to reign him in. He is not a Rodman, Haywood, or Spreewell. Shit he isn't even Marvin Barnes.
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All fair. And I just don't know what was going on under the hood on those teams and agree we probably won't for years. So I'm just guessing on all of this too.
My guess? Durant has been a sneakily bad teammate all along- for all the greatness in his game, the "most flexible player" hype, and media-friendly appearances the fact is he bailed on OKC, bailed on an amazing situation in GS, bailed on the Nets, and has already made noises about bailing on the Suns. He has had mediocre relationships with a bunch of teammates and a bunch of coaches (calling for various others to be fired as he's gone along) and made some odd choices (Kyrie!) as well. The case for him as any sort of leader is literally non-existant---he has never led a team anywhere, and all evidence is he's the greatest number two ever (or maybe co-greatest with Pippen) and unable to be a leader. The case for him as a good teammate boils down to "GS succeded with him for a few years" doesn't it? We only know about 25% of what goes on, and I fully agree with you Draymond driving him away is absolutely on the table. But so is Durant being a selfish ass and Curry or Draymond calling him out on it is my only note there. So, I dunno what to make of that other than agreeing that Kerr definitely failed to solve it!
With the 2016 thing, no dispute why they lost. I have said a few times along the way I think kerr enables Draymond, and that's my best guess. So I tend to land where you do on criticism of that. I do have some doubt there though - I suspect Draymond is a lot closer to Dennis Rodman's personality than most think and so keeping him mostly on-message may be quite an accomplishment. But that's just speculation.
The other point against Kerr is how awful the team was without Curry the one year he missed---it's not a totally fair thing to look at as they decided to tank, but it's a (small) data point against him. But let's also give credit for all the success and championships, even if we give a ton of the credit to Curry Kerr still was there and deserves credit too.
I hate Draymond. I want to be clear about that upfront. I think he's a self-aggrandizing jackass and it's a joke that he already has a media career set up after this when he's proven himself to be a less entertaining Shaq (incredibly thin skinned to the point that it hurts any actual analysis that they do).
However...I don't think anyone can blame Kerr or Draymond for KD.
It's pretty clear that someone (probably Rich Kleiman) told Durant that if he won championships with Golden State that he would be beloved and everyone would forget about the process and how he actually got to Golden State....and that was just never going to happen. Once it became clear to KD he was never ever going to get the love and adulation Steph gets in the Bay or the normal respect a champion gets, he soured on the situation and wanted to leave.
I don't think there was anything anyone could have done to make him happy in Golden State at that point
No argument from me on Durant's deficiencies as a leader and teammate. He's gonna go down as one of the hardest players ever to judge historically. Without question he was a top 3 player in the league for a decade, he's been on 4 different teams with all-NBA level teammates at every stop, yet he only won titles when playing next to Curry, a two-time MVP in his prime. His physical profile and play style (and stature in the league throughout his career) feel fairly similar to Larry Bird and I think 5-6 years ago a lot of NBA observers assumed Durant would end up in that area all-time, but it definitely hasn't happened, even as his numbers remain obscene.
Does the fact that they won another title after he left make the post-Durant era in GS an unqualified success? Excluding 2020 (when Curry was hurt and obviously Durant wouldn't have helped) they've averaged just 46 wins and only made the playoffs twice in four years. Durant has been far less reliable, but still looked like a top 10 guy when he was on the court (and he's remained an absolute assassin in the playoffs, averaging 30/8/5 on .608 TS in 31 games, even including the lousy 2022 Celtics series), while the Warriors players outside of Curry have been inconsistent at best. Curry's (and Kerr's) reputation has undoubtedly grown with the additional title (and obviously the 2022 team was by far the worst Warriors finals team of this era), but there's an alternate reality somewhere in which Durant stays in GS, and even if they never win another title, I gotta imagine they'd be a lot more competitive.
His last year Durant had a run in with Draymond, and Durant pointed out on record (on Draymond's podcast) it wasn't the fight with Dray that made him want to leave but it was the way Kerr tried to brush it under the rug.
I totally agree, an extremely odd career, probably only surpassed by Kawhi in terms of upper-echelon hall of famers in terms of straight up weirdness.
I think Durant is a perfectionist. He is constantly striving to play in the most efficient, optimal way, never taking too many shots, never dominating the ball too frequently, always trying to be as perfect as possible. A lot of that has made him an admirable player--he is easily the most selfless pure scoring machine in NBA history, but it's also driven him to constantly tinker with his situation, always chasing something that he think can be better for him.
I also think he has very little respect for coaches and any players except for the very elite guys in the NBA. I've listened to a lot of his podcasts, and I think he views his experience as an elite player makes him the most informed decision maker about everything related to the game and his career decisions.
That may be true but I don't think KD is a reliable narrator...at all. I don't trust anything he says on record
The top, elite dudes seem to pretty much always think that they're the fucking experts on everything in their field, even stuff that falls well outside of the scope of just "being that elite dude". Some don't yap about it very much or are better at couching it, but it seems to always be there.
I find him to be fascinating, mostly because I think the move to Golden State is one of the craziest decisions in sports history, and it's absolutely insane when you consider that he legitimately thought that that whole thing could lead him to national acclaim or becoming beloved by Golden State fans.
I think you may be ascribing too much of a narrative to him. When it comes down to it, I think he’s as selfish as they all are and he wanted to be the main guy. I’ve followed his career and interviews closely and I really, really don’t think there’s some sort of “basketball nirvana” pursuit. That’s something only Bill Simmons thinks, and his nose is so far up Durant’s ass that it’s obscene. Most normal observers think that the guy just has some personality issues that don’t allow him to stay at a place for a long them
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Agree with you guys Durant is fascinating.
He’s smart, articulate, relatively open (we know a lot more about what he thinks than LeBron, Curry, Bird, Jordan) and a spectacular and well regarded player.
He’s the second best shooter in the history of the league and has a long history of being all around great on the court.
He has sustained spectacular play longer than anyone with his profile—-tall, outside shooter/scorer, etc.
He’s got rings, is the greatest FIBA player there is, an is on year 17 or so of being an all nba player
There’s basically nothing on the court he cannot do
And…
His track record as a leader or driver of a team is pretty damn uninspiring.
He has begged off more teams than anyone in top 20 all time—probably by a lot.
He has never won a thing without Steph, a better player, driving the team.
The next team he leads to a surprising series win will be the first.
He’s smart, articulate, relatively open (we know a lot more about what he thinks than LeBron, Curry, Bird, Jordan) and a spectacular and well regarded player.
He’s the second best shooter in the history of the league and has a long history of being all around great on the court.
He has sustained spectacular play longer than anyone with his profile—-tall, outside shooter/scorer, etc.
He’s got rings, is the greatest FIBA player there is, an is on year 17 or so of being an all nba player
There’s basically nothing on the court he cannot do
And…
His track record as a leader or driver of a team is pretty damn uninspiring.
He has begged off more teams than anyone in top 20 all time—probably by a lot.
He has never won a thing without Steph, a better player, driving the team.
The next team he leads to a surprising series win will be the first.
I never got why Golden State fans didn't embrace him. They only won one championship before he walked in and weren't the clear favorite over LeBron without him.
I mean I don't think KD would have been happy either way because the rest of the world was going to give him shit, but Warriors fans are a fickle breed (they cut The City right quick)
I don't claim to have a finger on the pulse of Dubs nation but my perception is that KD wasn't embraced locally for the same reasons the broader NBA fandom was against it. KD was perceived as a coattail rider even if he was the best player on the floor. Some people also may have been concerned that Curry would be diminished by having another great around him or something like that.
Fanbases can be really silly sometimes.
Yeah, always felt like an awkward Jeter/ARod dynamic with Curry/KD. Dubs fans gladly took KD’s production but they always went out of their way to remind everyone that this was Curry’s team.
The only thing I could I think about as analogous as a Red Sox fan is being bitched we got Schilling or Randy Moss. Maybe when the Pats got Revis?
There's really nothing comparable in any major American sport (not just Boston) that I can think of. The best team in the league (who had just completed the best regular season in history) got the 2nd best player in the league as a free agent, filling a position of need. It would be like Giannis were a free agent and signed with the Celtics this summer, if he had never won a title with the Bucks.
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The closest in basketball it was like LeBron going to Miami but Wade wasn't that good (as in Curry good) or Shaq going to LA but Kobe wasn't Kobe when he did that.
Ohtani?
BOS once had a world championship team that was going to add a generational talent but . . . .
(I can't go on.)
It's not even about Wade or Kobe relative to Curry, it's how good their teams were before Lebron/Shaq joined. In the two years prior to Lebron going to Miami, the Heat won 90 total games and lost in R1 twice. In the two years prior to Shaq going to LA, the Lakers won 101 games and lost in R1 once and R2 once.
In the two years prior to Durant going to the Warriors, they won 140 games and got to the finals both years, winning once. Really not even in the same zip code as Lebron/Shaq going to Miami/LA.
Yeah that was my first thought, but as good as the Dodgers have been recently (and they averaged 106 wins in the 3 seasons prior to Ohtani joining, and won the WS the year before that), at least they lost in the NLDS the last two seasons, as opposed to the Warriors getting to the finals. And one player in baseball doesn't have nearly the same impact as one player in the NBA, but this may be the best example in recent history.
I don't know man, I feel like Wade was probably one of the three best players in the NBA when LeBron and Bosh joined him in Miami. He had finished Top 5 in MVP voting and was First-Team All-NBA in the past two seasons before LeBron joined, and already had the bonkers NBA Finals performance against Dallas. After the first two Heatles seasons, his body broke down and he ended up being more of a side kick for LeBron as opposed to an equal, but he was a really outstanding player, probably just as good as Curry was when Durant joined.
Ohtani would be a comp if a star baseball player had the same impact on winning that an elite basketball player does, which they don't. There may be some hockey examples, but I don't think that anything compares to the wins added by an elite NBA player.
Nevermind adding Giannis, imagine adding Jokic to this Celtics team. They'd win 70+ games next year and might not lose one in the playoffs.
I'm not sure that there's an actual comp for adding Durant to the Warriors when they did. Might be the most extreme example of such a thing ever in any NA professional sport.
Nevermind adding Giannis, imagine adding Jokic to this Celtics team. They'd win 70+ games next year and might not lose one in the playoffs.
I'm not sure that there's an actual comp for adding Durant to the Warriors when they did. Might be the most extreme example of such a thing ever in any NA professional sport.
Durant going to a loaded Warriors team that had finished the prior season 73-9 appears to be the most extreme example one of the best players in the league going to an already elite team.
Shaq or LeBron going to Miami sort of compare but not quite. Miami had been 2nd in the Atlantic Division and 3rd in the Southeast Division the seasons prior to those guys joining.
Stepping back further I thought Kareem going from Milwaukee to LA in 1975 might be a decent comp but LA was not a top team at the time and had finished the prior season in 5th place in the Pacific Division.
Wilt going from Philadelphia to LA in 1968 may be somewhat close as LA had been 2nd in the Western Division the prior year.
There are a few potential hockey examples. I thought of Dominik Hasek, Brett Hull, and Luc Robitaille all joining a loaded Red Wings team in 2001-02. It's not quite the same because they were all old, but Hasek was the reigning Vezina winner at the time and has a case as the best goalie ever.
Quisling Clemens to the MFY in 1999. Reigning Cy Young to a 114 win champ. Man, that sucked .
Right. Wade was a very good player (obviously) but definitely a notch below Curry. And, as @Euclis20 pointed out, it’s more than that because the Golden State team was way, way better than both Miami and LAL.
There’s no comparison in modern sports. Individuals matter more in basketball than any other team sport so you can’t go across sports.
It was an all time weak move. He got the rings but not nearly the adulation as other champions. Which, IMO, is deserved.
yeah, there's nothing comparable to the warriors adding KD - a top nba superstar to a team that had just lost in the finals.
I could only find a few comps that were sorta close.
The Rockets adding Drexler (and losing Otis Thorpe) right after their 1994 championship and before their 1995.
The Bulls adding Kukoc and Rodman (and losing Horace Grant) after the end of their first 3-peat to start their second 3-pear.
The Celtics adding Bill Walton after losing in the finals in 1985, though he was already way past his peak.
I could only find a few comps that were sorta close.
The Rockets adding Drexler (and losing Otis Thorpe) right after their 1994 championship and before their 1995.
The Bulls adding Kukoc and Rodman (and losing Horace Grant) after the end of their first 3-peat to start their second 3-pear.
The Celtics adding Bill Walton after losing in the finals in 1985, though he was already way past his peak.
Adding Schilling to one of the what, three best teams in the previous year is close but as Jimbo says above, adding a star player in basketball is so generally much more impactful than the other sports it's hard to compare.
Randy Moss keeps coming to my mind as the closest comp. I could say Dillon had as much of an impact but many felt he was on the decline prior to the Pats adding him…..Moss was still elite.
Devin Booker posted a behind-the-scenes video.
View: https://twitter.com/CGBBURNER/status/1826000021365678590?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1826000021365678590%7Ctwgr%5E989eff1aab23d81a3d4c553b8452b175172292e5%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Farticles%2F10132585-devin-booker-posts-behind-the-scenes-video-from-usas-gold-medal-run-at-2024-olympics
View: https://twitter.com/CGBBURNER/status/1826000021365678590?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1826000021365678590%7Ctwgr%5E989eff1aab23d81a3d4c553b8452b175172292e5%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Farticles%2F10132585-devin-booker-posts-behind-the-scenes-video-from-usas-gold-medal-run-at-2024-olympics
Dillon and Moss were in pretty similar positions when they came to the Pats, but Moss was definitely worse off. Dillon had one bad year in 2003 before coming to New England, but he had rushed for 1300+ yards in each of the three seasons before that. Moss looked absolutely done as an elite player after his final year in Minnesota and a couple of mediocre seasons in Oakland (from 2004-2006, he averaged just 50 catches and 775 yards). It's easy in hindsight to say Moss was just in terrible situations with a lousy attitude, but he was 3 years removed from his last pro bowl, 30 years old, and it only took a 4th round pick to get him (it took a 2nd rounder to get Dillon).
History is littered with examples of good to great players joining to good to great teams, but one top 3 player joining another top 3 player on a team that just set the record for regular season wins and won the title the year before that, with all the key guys in their mid to late 20s...yeesh. I think what got people the most angry wasn't just that Durant took the easy way out (he's far from the first or last superstar to do that), it's that what he did legitimately broke the league for a couple of years, AND he came as a free agent (meaning the Warriors didn't have to give up anything to get him, just let Harrison Barnes go). It really would be like if Jokic were somehow able to sign with the Celtics this summer as a free agent.
That's exactly right. He broke the league and he seemed to expect that people would treat him as a very valuable missing piece instead of a massive frontrunner.
There was a chance for that to be a great run for the league with a ton of compelling matchups....and one man basically ruined it because he got bad advice and was obsessed with "ringz" culture
If I am remembering it correctly, this book lays out that scenario as the main impetus for KD leaving Golden State.
I love watching KD the player and am fascinated by KD the personality in terms of how human (insecurities and all) he is. Refreshing in this age of players thinking they are a "brand" and tightly controlling how they present to the public.
It seems like KD actually enjoys trolling fans on Twitter. Maybe there’s a fair armchair-psych “Does he REALLY enjoy it, or does he just think he enjoys it, and it’s actually eating him up inside” angle, but maybe he really doesn’t take it seriously and thinks it’s fun. Who knows?
As others have said, he doesn’t seem like a guy who will care about being in front of a camera when he retires, but he’s set for generations financially, and he already has a legit behind the scenes production thing going with The Boardroom, which will give him something to occupied his time, and get him around interesting people from sports and creative avenues.
Beyond that, he might just be a regular at W games, and hang out with other famous people.