Team USA 2024

Justthetippett

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I'm sure that I must be missing some good things but every time I look up at the TV this past week, Tatum is doing something to kill us.
He is probably tired, and I think the jumper is getting sort of retuned this summer and he probably needs time to rep it outside of game action. (Why they are doing that, IDK, it is looking too hitchy and mechanical.) But yeah, he's not looking good. And they kind of need him unless KD is ready to really go.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He is probably tired, and I think the jumper is getting sort of retuned this summer and he probably needs time to rep it outside of game action. (Why they are doing that, IDK, it is looking too hitchy and mechanical.) But yeah, he's not looking good. And they kind of need him unless KD is ready to really go.
He had a couple weeks off. I think it's more fit playing off the ball than being tired and I spoke of this mismatched lineup he's been a part of at the start of these games. He is all out of sorts
 

snowmanny

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Agreed, I think it is that all year he was the centerpiece of a very calculated offensive system, and now he’s out there kind of floating in space
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yeah, he is out of practice playing off the ball...and my sense is the lineups he's been on have been wonky too.

Frankly, he needs more time off as well.
 

TripleOT

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I certainly don’t have the winning percentage of Steve Kerr, but it makes sense to me to play the three Celtics at the same time. I would put them with the two Lakers.
 

PedroKsBambino

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On a team with about 10 better on-ball creators than Haliburton, he really shouldn't see a meaningful minute on the court. He's not a good off-ball player (he could be ,but just hasn't really learned how) and he is atrocious defensively.

His role is "on ball creator if Steph Curry can't play" pretty much.
 

HomeRunBaker

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On a team with about 10 better on-ball creators than Haliburton, he really shouldn't see a meaningful minute on the court. He's not a good off-ball player (he could be ,but just hasn't really learned how) and he is atrocious defensively.

His role is "on ball creator if Steph Curry can't play" pretty much.
This is where politics hurt the team. If given a choice to fill out the best possible roster with roles filled with the best players suited for these roles it would be a no-brainer to pick Hauser or Isaiah Joe over Haliburton. We don’t select our team with optimal win equity in mind though.
 

benhogan

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This is where politics hurt the team. If given a choice to fill out the best possible roster with roles filled with the best players suited for these roles it would be a no-brainer to pick Hauser or Isaiah Joe over Haliburton. We don’t select our team with optimal win equity in mind though.
100%.

They are improving. Adding White (& Jrue to some extent) they are trying to include the best Alfred's to the equation.

The very best NBA perimeter defenders (McDaniels/Caruso/Jones) + movement 3pt shooters (Kennard/Allen) would be nice to roster for 9-12 so they could go situational at the end of close games.

Maybe roster expansion so nobody's feelings get hurt
 

Euclis20

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100%.

They are improving. Adding White (& Jrue to some extent) they are trying to include the best Alfred's to the equation.

The very best NBA perimeter defenders (McDaniels/Caruso/Jones) + movement 3pt shooters (Kennard/Allen) would be nice to roster for 9-12 so they could go situational at the end of close games.

Maybe roster expansion so nobody's feelings get hurt
I know the bolded wouldn't prevent that. Say they were to do a small, reasonable expansion of the roster size by adding 3 spots (12 to 15), there are 3 super obvious choices in terms of star power and overall talent: Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson, Jaylen Brown. Beyond that, guys like Butler, George, even Fox and Zion might start getting upset if they miss out on an expanded roster spot so that the team can add a couple of sub-all star level role players.

The only way we might actually see that is if one of these super teams were to legitimately lose out on a gold, and management brings in someone with enough cachet to be ruthless with their choices and attempt to actually build the best possible team, rather than a collection of the best possible players. Until Team USA actually misses out on the gold, for sure nothing will change.
 

benhogan

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Until Team USA actually misses out on the gold, for sure nothing will change.
Fact

If they missed out on gold, to avoid just adding 3 more ball-dominant scorers (Brown, Brunson, Dono) to the conga line, maybe stipulate that #11-15 roster spots be filled out by either
(a) All NBA Defensive players
(b) Most efficient 3pt shooters


Note: throwing 5 ball-dominant scorers on the floor at the same time is just the worst basketball ever IMO.
My Turn/Potted Plant offense will have me looking for the 1000M Freestyle semifinals
 

Auger34

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On a team with about 10 better on-ball creators than Haliburton, he really shouldn't see a meaningful minute on the court. He's not a good off-ball player (he could be ,but just hasn't really learned how) and he is atrocious defensively.

His role is "on ball creator if Steph Curry can't play" pretty much.
On this particular team, Haliburton is the worst player on the roster. I don't think there's even a debate.

If it were up to me, I think the closing lineup would be Steph-Jrue (or White)-Tatum-LBJ-AD. I am the least excited about Tatum of that 5 because he would need to be playing off-ball and his jump shot has deserted him. In fact, if the opposing team allowed for it I would go small and use Steph-Jrue-White-Bron-AD.

@HomeRunBaker brought this up earlier but the issue is that none of the Booker-Ant-Tatum trio have separated themselves with the needed shooting and defense plus KD is hurt.
There's also the Kerr of it all where he said that Embiid was one of the "Big 3" when it seems like he should be closer to the end of the bench with Haliburton
 

Auger34

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Fact

If they missed out on gold, to avoid just adding 3 more ball-dominant scorers (Brown, Brunson, Dono) to the conga line.

Maybe stipulate that #11-15 roster spots be filled out by either
(a) All NBA Defensive players
(b) Most efficient 3pt shooters
It's pretty clear that Team USA is mostly a popularity contest (with shoe politics mixed in) but I do think this team would be a hell of a lot better with even simple tweaks.

The obvious one, IMO, is Brown for Haliburton. They need more players that can defend on-ball and actually are somewhat useful/have experience playing in meaningful games where they aren't the #1 option. Hypothetically Booker should have that experience playing with Durant but it's obvious that that "offense" was really just my turn, your turn in PHX and Booker doesn't have it.
 

Bosoxian

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Haliburton is playing because he’s one of the few players who agreed to play in the FIBA World Cup. They’ve got to give some of those players a reward.
 

benhogan

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It's pretty clear that Team USA is mostly a popularity contest (with shoe politics mixed in) but I do think this team would be a hell of a lot better with even simple tweaks.

The obvious one, IMO, is Brown for Haliburton. They need more players that can defend on-ball and actually are somewhat useful/have experience playing in meaningful games where they aren't the #1 option. Hypothetically Booker should have that experience playing with Durant but it's obvious that that "offense" was really just my turn, your turn in PHX and Booker doesn't have it.
Agree... Vegas has them at 80% chance of winning Gold.

May just sprinkle a little on Canada (+1100), France (+1200), Germany (+3000)

hey Nike, am I a bad person? ;)

https://www.si.com/betting/opening-olympic-basketball-odds-suggest-united-states-has-over-80-percent-chance-to-earn-gold-medal
 

Euclis20

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Haliburton is playing because he’s one of the few players who agreed to play in the FIBA World Cup. They’ve got to give some of those players a reward.
I don't think this is 100% accurate. He was also picked in large part because he looked like a dark horse candidate for 1st team all-NBA during the first part of the season, and because he's perhaps the best pure point guard in the NBA. That archetype is going way in the modern NBA, but that sort of player (Jason Kidd, Chris Paul) has been VERY successful in Olympic play, for fairly obvious reasons. His slide over the 2nd half of the season and the quality of the other options has made his selection seem like more of a charity case as his minutes have dipped, but even as I'm very comfortable with him occupying the last spot on the bench, I 100% get the logic of taking him.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The roster construction issue is becoming all the rage. The Thinking Basketball guys did an interesting podcast on the best 3&D guys ever in the NBA (see here: Thinking Basketball | Podcast on Spotify ) and at the end of the podcast (around the 72 minute mark), they made the point (that everyone else here is making) that USA BBall would be much better if they replaced several of the high load (or high usage), ball dominant guys with 3&D guys like OG, KCP, peak Danny Green, etc.

Karalis also discussed this on the podcast and made the point that one way to make up a talent deficit, is to spread the more talented team out and see if the 3P shot can be the great equalizer. Which S. Sudan (14-33 versus 7-28, or a 21 point differential on 3Ps) and Germany (13-45 versus 6-17, also a 21 point differential) almost did.

Team USA is getting out-mathed, and the problem is that either because they aren't used to the system / don't have enough movement on offense given that most of these guys aren't used to moving off-the-ball / just see a mismatch in front of them every time they touch the ball, they aren't getting enough 3P looks.
 

TomRicardo

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Embiid was a huge mistake to bring on. Booker and Haliburton are not great fits as well. Durant is a fit if healthy.

You could have gone with Davis, LeBron, Durant, Jrue, and Curry as your best starting team with Bam, Tatum, Brown, Edwards, and White as your second team.

Edit - Edwards is really tough for the team. He really sucks all the oxygen up but he provides such a burst. Embiid sucks all the oxygen out of the air but doesn't give you a burst.
 

Euclis20

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The roster construction issue is becoming all the rage. The Thinking Basketball guys did an interesting podcast on the best 3&D guys ever in the NBA (see here: Thinking Basketball | Podcast on Spotify ) and at the end of the podcast (around the 72 minute mark), they made the point (that everyone else here is making) that USA BBall would be much better if they replaced several of the high load (or high usage), ball dominant guys with 3&D guys like OG, KCP, peak Danny Green, etc.

Karalis also discussed this on the podcast and made the point that one way to make up a talent deficit, is to spread the more talented team out and see if the 3P shot can be the great equalizer. Which S. Sudan (14-33 versus 7-28, or a 21 point differential on 3Ps) and Germany (13-45 versus 6-17, also a 21 point differential) almost did.

Team USA is getting out-mathed, and the problem is that either because they aren't used to the system / don't have enough movement on offense given that most of these guys aren't used to moving off-the-ball / just see a mismatch in front of them every time they touch the ball, they aren't getting enough 3P looks.
For me, it's almost less about skillset and more about the ability to play well in limited minutes. We saw a really obvious example of this just this past season with Al Horford - ever since coming back to Boston he's been basically a 3 and D big (the kind of skillset that Team USA needs), but he initially struggled when he came off the bench to start the year. Even if his on court responsibilities hadn't changed and he had the absolute perfect attitude, the reduced minutes and timing still threw him off his game. It took him 15-20 games to really figure it out, and players on Team USA don't have that kind of time.

That also underlines how important team continuity is, but there's really no fixing that (not until we get the A team playing in FIBA and other tournaments, as opposed to just every 4 years in the olympics).
 

InstaFace

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Agree... Vegas has them at 80% chance of winning Gold.

May just sprinkle a little on Canada (+1100), France (+1200), Germany (+3000)

hey Nike, am I a bad person? ;)

https://www.si.com/betting/opening-olympic-basketball-odds-suggest-united-states-has-over-80-percent-chance-to-earn-gold-medal
I think 80% is probably about right. We saw that if they play lazy, they can almost get-got by South Sudan. We've seen that teams like Serbia and Germany have what it takes to play Team USA nearly equally for good stretches, even when our heads are out of our asses. (we've also seen that when the opponent's focus wanes or we get in a groove, we can suddenly blow them out by 30, but we knew that). We've also seen that Lebron can still take over a game in clutch time and fucking end somebody. So the odds that we end up either not pulling our heads out of our ass for an entire game, or nobody finds a way to salvage a game, or one of the handful of worthy opponents has a 95th-percentile game for them and our shooting runs dry, feels like 20% is about fair. Maybe it should be 30%, and the USA 70% to win gold. But that number is not super out of whack to me.
 

the moops

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On a team with about 10 better on-ball creators than Haliburton, he really shouldn't see a meaningful minute on the court. He's not a good off-ball player (he could be ,but just hasn't really learned how) and he is atrocious defensively.

His role is "on ball creator if Steph Curry can't play" pretty much.
His defense is completely atrocious. I have often argued that he is worse than Trae Young.

But he is an incredible on ball creator. Like one of the best, no?
 

PedroKsBambino

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His defense is completely atrocious. I have often argued that he is worse than Trae Young.

But he is an incredible on ball creator. Like one of the best, no?
Yes, as I noted---he's great at that. How great is a little TBD for me - he was indeed one of the best for first couple months this year. Post-injury he was very good, but not one of the best. I think the former is real, but it's not 100% certain.

HE is also not good off-ball or defensively. So on a roster with Curry and LBJ appropriately dominating the ball he really doesn't have much of a role.

But if Curry is hurt (or the few minutes he is out and LBJ is also out) Hali can be impactful

I think he's on the roster, as HRB kind of alluded to, because he had a great start, they want someone younger, and politics. Fit/role wise to me he's really just a backup PG on this roster
 

Kliq

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The roster construction issue is becoming all the rage. The Thinking Basketball guys did an interesting podcast on the best 3&D guys ever in the NBA (see here: Thinking Basketball | Podcast on Spotify ) and at the end of the podcast (around the 72 minute mark), they made the point (that everyone else here is making) that USA BBall would be much better if they replaced several of the high load (or high usage), ball dominant guys with 3&D guys like OG, KCP, peak Danny Green, etc.

Karalis also discussed this on the podcast and made the point that one way to make up a talent deficit, is to spread the more talented team out and see if the 3P shot can be the great equalizer. Which S. Sudan (14-33 versus 7-28, or a 21 point differential on 3Ps) and Germany (13-45 versus 6-17, also a 21 point differential) almost did.

Team USA is getting out-mathed, and the problem is that either because they aren't used to the system / don't have enough movement on offense given that most of these guys aren't used to moving off-the-ball / just see a mismatch in front of them every time they touch the ball, they aren't getting enough 3P looks.
Yep, just like I posted yesterday, I think the ideal Team USA is a few of LeBron/Durant/Tatum/Curry/Edwards/Booker guys and then all elite role players, but we can't have that due to political reasons, and as Eulicis mentioned earlier, if you expanded the roster the players added would probably be more stars like Brunson, Mitchell and Brown. NBA players view playing on Team USA as an opportunity to cement their status as an elite player and pad their resume with a gold medal. Plus you have the shoe companies and the major sponsors wanting to get their guys on Team USA and their extra politicking.

I think it's really hard for guys that have the ball a lot to just adopt role player positions. Do players like Anthony Edwards, Devin Booker and Tatum possess the skills to be great "role" players and knock down threes on offense? Absolutely, but they are used to having the ball in their hands all the time and creating offense and its hard to just undo that wiring for a couple of weeks of competitive ball, with all new teammates. I'm sure the players are telling themselves that they know they are going to be playing a smaller role and that is what they need to do, but it's really hard to go out and execute that new role, even if it is theoretically "easier" than being the star man on an NBA team.

Part of the reason I think LeBron has been the best player for Team USA is that he largely has the same role on the team that he has on the Lakers as the primary ball-handler and creator. That's a credit to him maintaining his alpha status, even when surrounded by much younger players.
 

benhogan

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The roster construction issue is becoming all the rage. The Thinking Basketball guys did an interesting podcast on the best 3&D guys ever in the NBA (see here: Thinking Basketball | Podcast on Spotify ) and at the end of the podcast (around the 72 minute mark), they made the point (that everyone else here is making) that USA BBall would be much better if they replaced several of the high load (or high usage), ball dominant guys with 3&D guys like OG, KCP, peak Danny Green, etc.

Karalis also discussed this on the podcast and made the point that one way to make up a talent deficit, is to spread the more talented team out and see if the 3P shot can be the great equalizer. Which S. Sudan (14-33 versus 7-28, or a 21 point differential on 3Ps) and Germany (13-45 versus 6-17, also a 21 point differential) almost did.

Team USA is getting out-mathed, and the problem is that either because they aren't used to the system / don't have enough movement on offense given that most of these guys aren't used to moving off-the-ball / just see a mismatch in front of them every time they touch the ball, they aren't getting enough 3P looks.
Thanks for posting, listening to it at the moment

The C's turned Jrue Holiday into the best 3&D player in the NBA this past season. His USG went from 25% to 16.3%, while his 3pt% went from 38.4% to 42.9% (on less 3s but more C&S 3s). His defense speaks for itself.
 

HomeRunBaker

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TomRicardo

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If they don't get gold, Grant Hill has to go right? I don't think he has done a particularly good job at his job and was being bailed out by LeBron and Curry wanting to go ball out in Paris. Whatever deal they made with Embiid was awful. They handled Durant and Kawhi poorly as well (I agree with keeping Durant on the roster but continuously saying he was going to play the next game was not great messaging).

I would hope they would move on from Kerr as well to Spoelstra as well. I mean the fate of Hill lies in Tatum, Bam, and Edwards hands. Tatum and Bam are really tight. Davis and LeBron are pretty friendly with those guys as well. I think Edwards is only friendly with Haliburton...
 

TripleOT

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If they don't get gold, Grant Hill has to go right? I don't think he has done a particularly good job at his job and was being bailed out by LeBron and Curry wanting to go ball out in Paris. Whatever deal they made with Embiid was awful. They handled Durant and Kawhi poorly as well (I agree with keeping Durant on the roster but continuously saying he was going to play the next game was not great messaging).

I would hope they would move on from Kerr as well to Spoelstra as well. I mean the fate of Hill lies in Tatum, Bam, and Edwards hands. Tatum and Bam are really tight. Davis and LeBron are pretty friendly with those guys as well. I think Edwards is only friendly with Haliburton...
With the USA battling the math problem of opponents out scoring them badly from three, there is one accomplished young NBA coach with a championship pedigree who would be a good choice for future USA teams. Joe Mazzulla will win the math battle or die trying.

PS: Embiid is trash. He is so bad that one has wonder if he’s a double agent.
 

TomRicardo

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With the USA battling the math problem of opponents out scoring them badly from three, there is one accomplished young NBA coach with a championship pedigree who would be a good choice for future USA teams. Joe Mazzulla will win the math battle or die trying.

PS: Embiid is trash. He is so bad that one has wonder if he’s a double agent.
Embiid simply can't play without gravity. He needs people either being dragged off his teammates or people being dragged off him. I have a hard time seeing him win with Paul George after seeing him next LeBron and Tatum.

Honestly Team USA should have been Curry, Edwards, LeBron, Bam, Davis, with the Celtics American starters. If you were stuck with Embiid you could stuck him the Celtic starters and told them to imagine him as Luke Kornet on a heater.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Unless I am misreading you wrote there were 10 better on ball creators on the team. There are only 12 guys on the team.

Your point is accurate in that he really shouldn't be playing unless Steph goes down.
I'd put Haliburton near the bottom on this roster---he's clearly better on-ball than Bam and AD. Would you take him over Jrue, and White? Unclear on this roster if he'll make better decisions than either of them is my hesitation as those guys are elite at recognizing "this guy over here is better than me, so I'll get him the ball" and Hali has not had any reason or chance to demonstrate that judgment. He can clearly do MORE than either of them (arguably also than Embiid, very different players). I wouldn't take him over anyone else.

So you pick the number you want to nitpick from there.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Thanks for posting, listening to it at the moment

The C's turned Jrue Holiday into the best 3&D player in the NBA this past season. His USG went from 25% to 16.3%, while his 3pt% went from 38.4% to 42.9% (on less 3s but more C&S 3s). His defense speaks for itself.
Agree with your sentiment but technically, Jrue wouldn't qualify for the Thinking Ball guys' 3 & D list because, well, he can dribble.

(I.e., his offensive game is too polished to be considered a 3&D guy.)

Hauser, however, is an underated 3&D guy because no one realizes how good his defense is.
 

benhogan

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Agree with your sentiment but technically, Jrue wouldn't qualify for the Thinking Ball guys' 3 & D list because, well, he can dribble.

(I.e., his offensive game is too polished to be considered a 3&D guy.)

Hauser, however, is an underated 3&D guy because no one realizes how good his defense is.
Ha. Yes (and Cody is a huge Holiday fanboy)

According to USG, Jrue was the 5th option among the starters. He lived in the CornerOffice or slid into the dunker spot to bully opposing PGs. The fact that he can handle it like a PG makes him a multi-threat 3&D weapon.

Team USA has seen the benefit of Jrue/White since they quickly shoot a 3 or move the ball. They rarely go into Genius Coma/ ISO-ball. With no 3-second rule on Defense (Rudy/Wemby will live in the lane) it's easier to challenge ISO attacks than during NBA games.

Ball-dominant superstars who are slumping from 3 should create a glimmer of hope for the Intl teams.
 

denis888

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If they need to replace someone, that conversation seems a little awkward. Snubbing Jaylen again would look odd, but I can also see him refusing the invitation, which I’m sure USA basketball doesn’t want.
There's gotta be a better way to replace someone than this, what?
 

lovegtm

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Somewhat related, I've started watching parts of 2024 Celtics games as a palate cleanser after Team USA basketball.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Watching Brazil- France. To no one’s surprise Brazil has absolutely zero answer to Wemby….but is probably winning everywhere else
 

kfoss99

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If Embiid is going to pass up open threes, there's absolutely nothing he can do out there. It looks like he can hardly move.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Embiid is playing so bad. Missed both free throws, not grabbing rebounds or playing defense, and then a lazy inbound for a turnover and easy basket by Serbia.