TB Suspension: Cheater free to play again

crystalline

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 12, 2009
5,771
JP
The argument of the league, as I have understood it, was that the contracts signed during the uncapped year were structured to impact other years, where there was a cap in place. That is a pretty legitimate argument on the facts of the situation---these were not one-year deals. At all relevant times the league management council was the body who determined cap interpretation, and at all points defined it in a way that made those contracts violative of the cap, including warning teams not to do exactly what the Cowboys and Redskins did.
As I understand it, the NFL got the players to agree not to pursue any collusion claims against the owners related to those punishments. Why would the owners ask for such an agreement if they thought it was legal to ban teams from backloading contracts into the uncapped year?

What you say about why the owners did this makes sense, but you're giving the argument of only one side in an adversarial situation. I still think the punishment of DAL and WAS speaks more to the majority of owners' ability to punish teams that act to reduce ownership profit, than it speaks to teams' likelihood of getting randomly screwed over by a rogue commissioner or small group of owners.
 

amarshal2

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2005
4,913
This case is a travesty of minuscule proportions. It also happens to be an interesting study on the media, court of public opinion, and courts of law.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,770
This case is a travesty of minuscule proportions. It also happens to be an interesting study on the media, court of public opinion, and courts of law.

It's minuscule yet YUUGE in what it illustrates when you consider Tom Brady is rich as fuck and still got fucked.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,328
As I understand it, the NFL got the players to agree not to pursue any collusion claims against the owners related to those punishments. Why would the owners ask for such an agreement if they thought it was legal to ban teams from backloading contracts into the uncapped year?

What you say about why the owners did this makes sense, but you're giving the argument of only one side in an adversarial situation. I still think the punishment of DAL and WAS speaks more to the majority of owners' ability to punish teams that act to reduce ownership profit, than it speaks to teams' likelihood of getting randomly screwed over by a rogue commissioner or small group of owners.
Believe me, I'd much rather tell the story as an NFL screwup from the start--I despise Goodell and the NFL 'front office' and initially thought the Skins/Cows thing was an egregious failure. For other reasons I ended up going deep into it, and when you read all the documents and parse the statements of the teams, I thought it became pretty clear the NFL position was, if not clearly correct, based on a strong paper record of non-ridiculousness. The media spin on this thing was poor and oversimplified (stop me if you've heard that before!)

As to the waiver, the owners concerns were far more about the other litigations then pending than this thing---the NFLPA didn't care about this because the money went back to the players anyway. I think any lawyer here would say that if you have an open issue (and this certainly was one) you prefer to get it settled or waived in a global agreement than leave it open. That the players appear to have gotten nothing extra for it suggests that they didn't value the issue much, though in a complex agreement I acknowledge it is hard to parse out pieces like that with a lot of confidence.

And just to be clear---the scale of penalties for Skins and Cowboys were totally out of whack in my mind....but there was an actual violation under there, unlike the Brady thing.
 

twothousandone

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 18, 2001
3,976
Take it from real lawyers that this case is not Exhibit A in the annals of injustice. Or close.
You may not know this, but it doesn't take a lawyer to recognize injustice.

Perhaps I could try explaining why Emmet Till was beaten to a pulp by racist murderers. Oh, wait, I tried (and failed) to explain that three weeks ago.

I asked a question that pertains to today's headlines.
 

amarshal2

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2005
4,913
It's minuscule yet YUUGE in what it illustrates when you consider Tom Brady is rich as fuck and still got fucked.
The deck was completely stacked from the media coverage to investigative control to nearly limitless powers to levy and enforce punishment. This isn't a referendum on money as power. You say everybody knows Brady is innocent but in reality most people believe he's guilty. My takeaway is that I never want to be falsely accused of anything, ever, because soundbites rule the day and courts are not infallible.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
The "get some perspective" angle is comical.

We're talking about sports which by definition is talking about entertainment and something that we all know, or should know, is not life and death.

That said, people here care enough about the NFL and their respective
teams to spend time talking about it fairly regularly and, as been observed, within the prism and context of the NFL, Tom Brady has been royally screwed. He's been labeled a cheater and is on the front pages of papers across the county with derisive headlines. And more. So sure, no one infected him with cancer or any such thing, but BernardSamuel is right that Brady has been publicly shamed for...freaking nothing.

It's a sports world gone mad. No one died. But within what we talk about here, it's pretty ridiculous.
Sorry, but I find it hilarious to be reading any comment on perspective written by a grown man that wrote a letter and mailed a jersey back to a player when he signed with another team, no matter which side he is taking.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,314
Because, for a 10-year old, the question involves whether lawyers actively participate in a rigged system. "Justice" clearly is not the goal, at least for the two appeals court justices. Professionals lawyers have made peace with that, and I am curious how a 10-year old (yes, in the United States -- a first world, 1% problem, thanks for reminding me) gets comfortable with it, as well.

I know a bit about labor relations, so I have explained it to my kids as "that's the deal you agreed to. If it's not "fair" you shouldn't have shaken on it." And then I usually end up mentioning Doug Collins and telling the IOC to shove the silver medal up their behinds. And then I explain the courts aren't there to protect you from yourself. And then it's unions and etc.

If I offended your sensibilities, go read another thread.

Thank you.

Edit: of course, I think he trusts me. Which has its own problems.
Tell him you can be found legally innocent and still put to death. Or could. Scalia's dead and there's been enough electric chair hyperbole here.
 

garzooma

New Member
Mar 4, 2011
126
In fairness if a large block of owners really wanted to get into the nitty gritty of the Wells report I'm sure they get to see them, whether they're technically the client of not.
And I'm not actually talking about anything from Wells, but the correspondence from the NFL lawyers to Wells. Which, since this was supposed to be an independent investigations, should just be about softball game scheduling, Girl Scout cookie sales, and the like.

As far as a large block of owners, if the NFL works like most corporations (which may be wrong, but bear with me) it seems like you'd only need 2 owners to cause real trouble:

Owner #1: "Now I'm sure that the investigation was independent as promised, but we have media reports of demands for a 'make-up call', and a Federal Judge mocking the independence of the investigation, and we really can't have that and maintain the atmosphere of trust we need to operate. So I move that we appoint a committee of owners to skim through whatever brief correspondence there was between our lawyers and Mr. Wells to verify that there was no attempt to direct an outcome."

Owner #2: "That sounds reasonable. I second."
And after some discussion, where it's hard to come up with an innocent reason to oppose the motion, it goes to a vote. As per the Freeman article upthread, there are other teams that "think, in effect, that what happened to the Patriots could happen to any of them." The vote is a vehicle to give voice to those concerns. And even the owners who called for the make-up call (railroading) have a problem. It's one thing to want a rigged investigation and urge Goodell to provide it. It's another thing to announce it to your fellow owners in an open forum, which is what a no vote means.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
Sorry, but I find it hilarious to be reading any comment on perspective written by a grown man that wrote a letter and mailed a jersey back to a player when he signed with another team, no matter which side he is taking.
Sorry but that's moronic.

I believe you have harped on this before. Either way, it was a goof on Damon, not some serious life event. Obviously. To me, the enduring funny thing about it was that his handler dude called my cell to explain Damon's actions.

Second, even if it was a serious thing at the time (which it wasn't) your thesis seems to be that a person who lost perspective once can never regain it and never should discuss the point. Wrong and foolish.
 
Last edited:

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
20,322
Pretty annoying and patronizing to go on Sosh, a site fueled by passion for sports, and tell posters they need to gain some perspective and step away from the keyboard bc they are fired up over the travesty that is Deflategate.
 

The Big Red Kahuna

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 14, 2003
3,564
Pretty annoying and patronizing to go on Sosh, a site fueled by passion for sports, and tell posters they need to gain some perspective and step away from the keyboard bc they are fired up over the travesty that is Deflategate.
Being upset, or even "fired up", isn't the same as calling this the greatest legal travesty in our country... Or, calling for all of New England to boycott all things NFL. Both of those two latter points are asinine. But, I'm sure you know that.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

Bob Kraft's Season Ticket Robin Hoodie
SoSH Member
Jun 29, 2006
8,320
Winterport, ME
Pretty annoying and patronizing to go on Sosh, a site fueled by passion for sports, and tell posters they need to gain some perspective and step away from the keyboard bc they are fired up over the travesty that is Deflategate.
It is many of the same posters that show up in game threads and begin lecturing those that dare to show emotion or that are upset about poor performances from the players or coaches. Those thread police tactics are as annoying now as it they are during the actual games.
 

Bergs

funky and cold
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2005
21,691
Pretty annoying and patronizing to go on Sosh, a site fueled by passion for sports, and tell posters they need to gain some perspective and step away from the keyboard bc they are fired up over the travesty that is Deflategate.
This x100. We all get this isn't life and death, but it's absolutely infuriating, and the perspective police are really fucking annoying in here.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
Sorry but that's moronic.

I believe you have harped on this before. Either way, it was a goof on Damon, not some serious life event. Obviously. To me, the enduring funny thing about it was that his handler dude called my cell to explain Damon's actions.

Second, even if it was a serious thing at the time (which it wasn't) your thesis seems to be that a person who lost perspective once can never regain it and never should discuss the point. Wrong and foolish.
Yes, right. It was a goof. Forgot. A goof.

And my thesis is that you draw a laugh from me on the topic. Not that I completely disregard whatever point you're making or disagree with it. Simply that given how emotional you tend to get with mailing jerseys, emailing Tito or your posts in this thread, it makes me chuckle to see you talk about perspective to anyone else on the matter. It's not an indictment man, it's just ball busting. Down shift.
 

Cabin Mirror

Member
SoSH Member
I think I am finally at peace with this whole thing. It consumed my attention to an (arguably) unhealthy degree. I love reading all the thoughts and perspectives of the SoSH collective.

Fuck Roger and his minions. We can only hope they get what they deserve in the end. But they might not.

This (seemingly) final result sucks, but I am thankful for those here that cautioned us against blind optimism after Berman's ruling. It helped prepare me for this.

What the team does now is to just do what the Patriots always do. Shit happens, ignore the noise, win.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
22,098
A Scud Away from Hell
I'm all for showing passion and I'm still mad as hell. However...

Let's all stay away from "GTFO" type of posts. Lines are getting blurred and SNR ratio is getting worse.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,646
Tom Brady will ultimately be fine. The Patriots will take a hit for this (not to mention the lost draft picks) in 2016, but there's more than a reasonable chance that the Patriots will still end up in the AFCCG after all is said and done, so missing Brady probably won't be a death blow or even a seriously crippling blow to the team this year. (Of course, I won't be saying this if they go 1-3 or 0-4 and JG gets eaten alive!)

To me, the real problem is in the big picture, both in terms of the NFL and, on an even bigger level, our justice system.

In terms of the NFL, I now view this as the most corrupt organization in sports. It's hard to see it otherwise. From the CTE research to the NFL manipulating injury data to the Ray Rice fiasco to the totally arbitrary way that Goodell dishes out penalties to the way the league is just all.about.money.and.nothing.else....this is just the final straw for me in many respects. How the NFL can, with a straight face, claim to have been impartial here when they leaked the Mortensen information, then did not correct it, and then when they gave the correct numbers to the Patriots on the grounds that they not release that information, all in an effort to paint the Patriots as cheaters, is just beyond the pale.

In terms of our justice system, it's even worse. I don't know enough about the law to know whether Goodall actually acted within the law and the CBA or not. It sure feels like he didn't. But maybe he did. Maybe the players really just negotiated themselves this crap sandwich and now they have to eat it. I don't know. But the disturbing thing here is that this one particular judge said that the evidence against Brady was compelling, if not overwhelming. And I stop and think about that for a minute and I just cannot believe what I'm hearing. It's one thing for some mouth-breathing Patriot-hating fan from Yonkers or Miami to call the Patriots and Tom Brady cheaters. I expect that. But I do not expect a seasoned U.S. Federal Judge to look at the evidence fairly and conclude that the evidence against Brady is compelling or even overwhelming.

If it turns out that Chin did NOT read evidence, or did not read it fairly, it makes me even more depressed, because then it means that federal judges can just make outrageous claims and decisions based on not actually paying attention.

It makes me question whether any person ever can get a fair trial in America.

I know there are graver injustices in the world. There are innocent people on death row. But, in its own sphere, this is some of the most frustrating and discouraging stuff I've encountered in the world of sports in a long time.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
Judges often make side comments on issues that aren't material to the decision. Part of my job is drafting Administrative Orders that correct the mistakes of Administrative Law Judges (not "real" judges, but still) because they sometimes issue opinions and findings that not only go off on tangents, but get the relevant law flat-out fucking wrong. And that's not even what happened here. Chen made a comment that really amounts to color commentary: what Brady did or did not do was not relevant to the issues he was charged with deciding. Now, did he convince himself that Brady did something to make himself feel less conflicted about his ultimate decision? Maybe. But that's his prerogative. Frankly, he probably should have kept it to himself, but there you go. He's earned the right.

Anyway, to the larger point: judges sometimes get shit wrong. If enough people don't like it, they can take it to the relevant legislature and try to get it fixed. Our system is built to deal with it. The Republic shall endure.

One other thing: this was not a trial; Tom Brady was not up on a criminal charge. Apples and Oranges.
 
Last edited:

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
And I'm not actually talking about anything from Wells, but the correspondence from the NFL lawyers to Wells. Which, since this was supposed to be an independent investigations, should just be about softball game scheduling, Girl Scout cookie sales, and the like.

As far as a large block of owners, if the NFL works like most corporations (which may be wrong, but bear with me) it seems like you'd only need 2 owners to cause real trouble:

Owner #1: "Now I'm sure that the investigation was independent as promised, but we have media reports of demands for a 'make-up call', and a Federal Judge mocking the independence of the investigation, and we really can't have that and maintain the atmosphere of trust we need to operate. So I move that we appoint a committee of owners to skim through whatever brief correspondence there was between our lawyers and Mr. Wells to verify that there was no attempt to direct an outcome."

Owner #2: "That sounds reasonable. I second."
And after some discussion, where it's hard to come up with an innocent reason to oppose the motion, it goes to a vote. As per the Freeman article upthread, there are other teams that "think, in effect, that what happened to the Patriots could happen to any of them." The vote is a vehicle to give voice to those concerns. And even the owners who called for the make-up call (railroading) have a problem. It's one thing to want a rigged investigation and urge Goodell to provide it. It's another thing to announce it to your fellow owners in an open forum, which is what a no vote means.
That's not how corporations work.
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
10,011
Boston, MA
Judges often make side comments on issues that aren't material to the decision. Part of my job is drafting Administrative Orders that correct the mistakes of Administrative Law Judges (not "real" judges, but still) because they sometimes issue opinions and findings that not only go off on tangents, but get the relevant law flat-out fucking wrong. And that's not even what happened here. Chen made a comment that really amounts to color commentary: what Brady did or did not do was not relevant to the issues he was charged with deciding. Now, did he convince himself that Brady did something to make himself feel less conflicted about his ultimate decision? Maybe. But that's his prerogative. Frankly, he probably should have kept it to himself, but there you go. He's earned the right.

Anyway, to the larger point: judges sometimes get shit wrong. If enough people don't like it, they can take it to the relevant legislature and try to get it fixed. Our system is built to deal with it. The Republic shall endure.

One other thing: this was not a trial; Tom Brady was not up on a criminal charge. Apples and Oranges.
He earned the right to do what exactly? Pontificate about what he found to be compelling if not overwhelming evidence of Brady's guilt? If he's going to talk about the facts of the case (and in fairness to you, you said he probably should have kept it to himself), doesn't he have some duty to actually understand them? I mean, as a federal district court judge, shouldn't he be held to a higher standard than earning the right to make ill-informed color commentary, or is he like all the other nitwits out there that glom on to a few disparate "facts" and makes a judgment based on them? I know he's no nitwit (no federal judge in NY can be, right?), but I share Baseball Jones's dismay over this Judge's frankly idiotic comment about the "compelling nature of the evidence" against Brady.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,030
I have no comment right now, but as a disclaimer for all my future posts in this thread: I'm not actually "angry" about any of this. So any time I say that word, or a similar one, it's 100% in the context that this is sports and entertainment, and outside of that world none of this shit bothers me.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
For the second time: he's not a district court judge. He's a Second Circuit court judge. I find it somewhat comical that someone that has had 0 interest in the court system before now, and cannot even be bothered to learn the correct terminology here, is lecturing what the proper role of an appellate judge should be.

He's earned the right to say whatever the fuck he wants in the opinion. That's what judges do. And sometimes, yes, they take a moment to make a point about something they feel is not directly relevant. Maybe because it tickles their funny bone. Maybe they have a bone to pick. Who knows. Scalia used to do it all the time on much more substantive matters than this.
 

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,712
I've thought about this off and on since it came down. At first, I was as inflamed as anyone else. I still am, but cooled off enough to try to understand this in a non-conspiratorial way.


First, back story. I'm a lifelong transactional lawyer who hasn't been in a courtroom (except as an expert witness) in 40 years. That puts my knowledge of litigation issues way behind DC Missile, Marciano, et al. Maybe an informed layperson, plus. So, what I tried to do is consider this imbroglio from the perspective of an observer who knew something about arbitration but had no skin in the game.


A couple of things jump out. There's deference to arbitration procedures and outcomes. True in a commercial setting, extra true in labor and employment matters. Why is the PA complaining? You cut the deal, and in the absence of a strong showing of impropriety, live with it. And strong means direct evidence, not conjecture about how the table is tilted. There's plenty of room for speculation, and Goodell and Wells made a terrible botch of it, but I can't go any further. So long as the process and outcome derived from the essence of the agreement, you’re stuck with it. (Paraphrasing the majority opinion, not expressing a view.)


Berman was inflamed by the mess Goodell created, but in reacting, he generated an outcome that was bad for the 2d Circuit and not just the NFL. I can understand how Chin and Parker concluded early on that unless they'd missed something startling in the record, they weren't going to open the door to a flood of plain vanilla arbitration awards simply because the appellant claimed nefarious behavior based on cumulative indirect evidence. In that sense, there was a strong preconception about the case, but it came from bona fide judicial concerns, especially in the 2d Circuit, which embraces so many major commercial enterprises.


The Chief felt that this was a case that went beyond the apprehended risk, it reflected behavior that shouldn't be sustained judicially. I kind of agree, but do understand where the other judges were coming from. Can you imagine having to parse through dense factual files to decide if a case met that standard? I have no idea how the Circuit will react to a motion for rehearing en banc, but could see that happening - theoretically, but the odds against it are high. If the motion is granted, I would hope the NFL would come to the table, but wouldn't bet on it.


Getting to TB: I think there was a profound lack of notice concerning exactly what behavior was in question, and consequent penalties. If I was sitting on the Circuit, I'd side with the Chief, but as I said, there are significant systemic considerations that I give credence to. Now, looking at it from an arbitrator’s perspective, several things jump out.


Start with the cell phone. Wells put Yee in a corner. He deferred to the privacy issue and simply asked Yee to redact and/or withhold personal emails, and provide the relevant emails with an undertaking that Brady/Yee had screened them. Brady refused; OK, I understand that there’s a significant employee concern when the NFL exercises unlimited oversight over personal communication devices, but then do what good lawyers also do, refuse to comply, state your legal reasons for doing so and give counsel physical custody of the device. Spoliation of evidence is bad, period, and I cannot conceive of an explanation for what TB did, unless he ignored Yee’s advice, which is possible.. As others have noted, it permits a trier of fact to draw an adverse inference, and Goodell did so. For that matter, Chin and Parker likely did also. This isn’t an equity proceeding, but if there was ever a case where the 2d Circuit would override an arbitrator, it certainly wasn’t going to do it in the face of behavior like that.


Brady’s long conversation with the Deflater also concerns me. I haven’t seen any explanation that tells me why he would spend that amount of time with him immediately after the story broke, when there is no history of phone calls between them. Again, the 2d Circuit doesn’t want to get into the weeds, given its ultimate deference to the arbitration award, but it certainly becomes a consideration when you’re being asked to sustain an extraordinary degree of judicial of Intervention into a labor-management arbitration.


This isn’t hard to understand once you take a more clinical view. If you’re going to ask a court to overturn a labor arbitrator, you better be prepared to demonstrate actual misbehavior or impropriety, and you’d better come in with clean hands. This is obviously bad for Brady. It’s also bad for the other owners. Be careful what you wish for, it will come with unanticipated consequences. One can only hope.


One or two additional thoughts. Kraft folded like a wet paper box. I don't know what Roger was blowing in his ear, and maybe this just reflects Bob's desperate desire to remain at the big boys table, but that removed any possible impediment to Goodell doing what he wanted to do. I cannot for the life of me figure out why the Patriots were penalized for alleged behavior in which they had no involvement, but Kraft rolled over. Jonathan’s succession to CEO can’t come any too soon for me. He may be a prick, but he’s living in a jungle that’s full of them.
 

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,128
Concord, NH
I get people needing to put some things in perspective, but don't act like this is just some nothing thing. Nothing things don't go instantly global and last for months/years. There are a lot of angles on this, most of them not even having anything to do with footballs. Sure, no one's getting the electric chair, but someone we've connected to is getting railroaded, which makes it hit home. As Brady continues to get railroaded, we're getting dragged through the muck along with him by other dumbass fans. We all understand that it doesn't matter intellectually, but it obviously matters to a lot of people on a personal level. Getting fucked over is getting fucked over no matter how minor it *should* be. We care about our sports up here- that's the point of sports- so to suddenly not give a shit because it's "only sports".

I don't even care because I'm a fan. I'm a casual fan at best. I care because I'm watching what appears to be an innocent man have his life's work dragged through the mud. What seems like a good, honest man getting completely fucked over. I'm seeing lawyers earning every fucking lawyer joke ever told. I'm seeing bullshit winning over truth. I don't really care that it's "just sports". Something wrong happened, and I don't blame anyone for desperately clinging to hope that justice will ultimately be served here. We all want to believe we live in a world where that can happen. It's not weird.

I'll understand if they don't do anything about it. Everyone here will live. But what's wrong with people not wanting them to give up until there's absolutely nothing left they can do?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,325
Hingham, MA
Brady’s long conversation with the Deflater also concerns me. I haven’t seen any explanation that tells me why he would spend that amount of time with him immediately after the story broke, when there is no history of phone calls between them. Again, the 2d Circuit doesn’t want to get into the weeds, given its ultimate deference to the arbitration award, but it certainly becomes a consideration when you’re being asked to sustain an extraordinary degree of judicial of Intervention into a labor-management arbitration.
Good post but I have to call you out on this. Brady did not talk with the "Deflator" post AFCCG (McNally). He talked with Jastremski, who was in charge of ball prep. Why would this concern you? If you had allegations against you deflating the balls, wouldn't you want to talk to the guy in charge of ball prep to know WTF was going on?
 

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,712
Good post but I have to call you out on this. Brady did not talk with the "Deflator" post AFCCG (McNally). He talked with Jastremski, who was in charge of ball prep. Why would this concern you? If you had allegations against you deflating the balls, wouldn't you want to talk to the guy in charge of ball prep to know WTF was going on?
Thanks for the correction. I didn't go back to check on the record, so that's on me.

But why so long? Is there a rational explanation for the length?
 

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,128
Concord, NH
Thanks for the correction. I didn't go back to check on the record, so that's on me.

But why so long? Is there a rational explanation for the length?
Yes, the one you quoted.

Edit: Sorry, don't mean to be snarky, it's just that this is exactly the kind of line of thinking that leads to these witch hunts in the first place.
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
10,011
Boston, MA
For the second time: he's not a district court judge. He's a Second Circuit court judge. I find it somewhat comical that someone that has had 0 interest in the court system before now, and cannot even be bothered to learn the correct terminology here, is lecturing what the proper role of an appellate judge should be.

He's earned the right to say whatever the fuck he wants in the opinion. That's what judges do. And sometimes, yes, they take a moment to make a point about something they feel is not directly relevant. Maybe because it tickles their funny bone. Maybe they have a bone to pick. Who knows. Scalia used to do it all the time on much more substantive matters than this.
Sorry to have offended your lawyerly sensibilities by mistakenly referring to him as a district court judge rather than a Second Circuit court judge, but at least it amused you. The point/question still stands: Does a Second Circuit judge have any duty to bother to understand the actual facts of a case before saying "whatever the fuck he wants" about them (I'm speaking to the comment about evidence of Brady's guilt, obviously, not the facts about what Goodell procedurally did as arbitrator)?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,325
Hingham, MA
Thanks for the correction. I didn't go back to check on the record, so that's on me.

But why so long? Is there a rational explanation for the length?
The length of the calls? IIRC they were like 15-20 minute calls. They also had in person meetings. Don't forget that they also needed to discuss Super Bowl ball prep since it was a different process.
 

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,712
Yes, the one you quoted.

Edit: Sorry, don't mean to be snarky, it's just that this is exactly the kind of line of thinking that leads to these witch hunts in the first place.
Don't worry about the snark, but I would need more than that. That explains a 10-15 minute conversation,

(Remember, I'm trying to parse how a disinterested observer would look at that, not a fanboy like me.)
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
10,011
Boston, MA
Don't worry about the snark, but I would need more than that. That explains a 10-15 minute conversation,

(Remember, I'm trying to parse how a disinterested observer would look at that, not a fanboy like me.)
I didn't think Brady ever spoke with the Deflator (McNally); only Jastremskii (to whom the "Deflator" text was directed). Am i wrong about that?
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,802
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Don't worry about the snark, but I would need more than that. That explains a 10-15 minute conversation,

(Remember, I'm trying to parse how a disinterested observer would look at that, not a fanboy like me.)
How long was the call? Clearing the air on the accusations and discussing the ball prep procedures for the Super Bowl would take a reasonable amount of time, I'd wager.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,325
Hingham, MA
There were calls over the course of 3 days lasting a total of < 1 hour. Jan 19-21 were the Monday-Wednesday post AFCCG. I think it would be reasonable to infer that Brady was checking in with JJ each morning to see if he learned anything new, but I am obviously biased.

After not communicating by

telephone or text message for more than six months (based on data retrieved from Jastremski‟s
cell phone), Brady and Jastremski spoke by telephone at least twice on January 19 (calls lasting a
total of 25 minutes and 2 seconds), twice on January 20 (calls lasting a total of 9 minutes and 55
seconds) and twice on January 21 (calls lasting a total of 20 minutes and 52 seconds) before
Jastremski surrendered his cell phone to the Patriots later that day for forensic imaging. These
calls included conversations relatively early during the mornings of January 19 (7:26 a.m. for 13
minutes and 4 seconds), January 20 (8:22 a.m. for 6 minutes and 21 seconds) and January 21
(7:38 a.m. for 13 minutes and 47 seconds)
 

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,128
Concord, NH
Don't worry about the snark, but I would need more than that. That explains a 10-15 minute conversation,

(Remember, I'm trying to parse how a disinterested observer would look at that, not a fanboy like me.)
No, I get ya. I think the problem I have is getting hung up on those kinds of details in the first place. That's what leads to things like "the deflator" being the sticking point when the other 99% of the evidence points to nothing happening. It's just finding patterns in the noise, IMO. I feel like that ignores the bigger picture. Let's say the other 99% of the evidence clearly points to Brady's innocence (I realize it's more complicated than that), then the answer to your question is essentially "who gives a shit?" because there are many, many reasons he could be talking to him for that length of time that are perfectly innocent. It's only "evidence" of anything bad if you're going into it half assuming that it's fishy.

This is why this whole thing happens.

You know what people should get hung up on? That the balls weren't deflated any more than they would have been. Or, that there'd be no reason to do it in the first place. Certainly not reason enough to have to whole major conspiracy to make it happen.
 
Apr 7, 2006
2,533
Fifteen to twenty minutes to discuss and figure out WTF happened - ESP when the PSI numbers were, at that point, wrong and misleading - the firestorm of media coverage AND what should, and could, happen, ball-prep-wise, in advance of - oh yeah - the Super Bowl. That amount of time on the phone - even per day over a few days - seems entirely reasonable to me.

Edit something got cut and lost in the shuffle, catching up on earlier replies.
 
Last edited:

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,712
How long was the call? Clearing the air on the accusations and discussing the ball prep procedures for the Super Bowl would take a reasonable amount of time, I'd wager.
From the Wells Report:

January 19, 2015
Jastremski and Brady spoke to each other on the telephone four times on January

19, for a total of 25 minutes and 2 seconds. They also exchanged a total of twelve text messages
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Sorry to have offended your lawyerly sensibilities by mistakenly referring to him as a district court judge rather than a Second Circuit court judge, but at least it amused you. The point/question still stands: Does a Second Circuit judge have any duty to bother to understand the actual facts of a case before saying "whatever the fuck he wants" about them (I'm speaking to the comment about evidence of Brady's guilt, obviously, not the facts about what Goodell procedurally did as arbitrator)?
I'm not sure what you mean by duty--it's not like judges get fired or get sent to bed without supper if they don't actually understand the record in front of them and the chances of particular appellate decisions being overturned are like zero--but it's certianly a judge's job to understand the appellate record in front of that Judge.

It is _not_ their job to know the actual facts of the case. If it's not in the appellate record it essentially doesn't exist.
 

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,712
Fifteen to twenty minutes to discuss and figure out WTF happened - ESP when the PSI numbers were, at that point, wrong and misleading - the firestorm of media coverage AND what should, and could, happen, ball-prep-wise, in advance of - oh yeah - the Super Bowl. That amount of time on the phone - even per day over a few days - seems entirely reasonable to me.

Edit something got cut and lost in the shuffle, catching up on earlier replies.
(Again from the position of a hypothetical person with no skin in the game) Your response would be adequate if it wasn't for that damn cellphone. Fairly or not, it colors everything else.

Edit: realized I used the wrong word.
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
10,011
Boston, MA
I'm not sure what you mean by duty--it's not like judges get fired or get sent to bed without supper if they don't actually understand the record in front of them and the chances of particular appellate decisions being overturned are like zero--but it's certianly a judge's job to understand the appellate record in front of that Judge.

It is _not_ their job to know the actual facts of the case. If it's not in the appellate record it essentially doesn't exist.
That's fair. If they are not compelled to know the actual facts of the case, that's totally fine. It would seem, then, that making gratuitous statements about the facts of the case, which they haven't seemed to bother to learn, would not be in their best interest, but as noted above, maybe he just doesn't give a shit.
 

dbn

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 10, 2007
7,785
La Mancha.
I had to stop reading this thread for a while so I went out in my backyard and just watched the birds for a while. Just watched the birds. I had an old football that I found in the basement and thought about asking my old man if he wanted to toss it for a bit, but then I thought that he is probably too old. This made me sad. I don't know any lawyers, judges, or professional athletes personally, but I do know some children. So I thought about them. Roger Gooddell isn't an illuminatus because the illuminati don't really exist, but what if they did? I'm going to eat a sandwich.
 

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,712
I had to stop reading this thread for a while so I went out in my backyard and just watched the birds for a while. Just watched the birds. I had an old football that I found in the basement and thought about asking my old man if he wanted to toss it for a bit, but then I thought that he is probably too old. This made me sad. I don't know any lawyers, judges, or professional athletes personally, but I do know some children. So I thought about them. Roger Gooddell isn't an illuminatus because the illuminati don't really exist, but what if they did? I'm going to eat a sandwich.
Do you have enough for one for me?
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,943
Here
Otis, you are a thoughtful and reasonable guy, and I cannot help but get a bit bewildered when stuff like the conversations are brought up. In a vacuum, I understand how those conversations could be viewed as you see them (though I agree with others that it would make sense in either context), but the entire conversation ignores a giant elephant in the room, namely that the footballs were almost surely not deflated.

The overwhelming weight of the evidence suggests that the footballs in the AFCCG had exactly the amount of air they were supposed to. All of this peripheral evidence, regardless of how it has been woven by the NFL, almost certainly cannot mean what the NFL wants people to believe it does. Logically, it just cannot. This whole thing is like a bank robbery investigation where it turns out no money was taken from the bank. It doesn't matter how much circumstantial evidence could make it seem like someone was a potential bank robber, that individual did not rob the bank.

There are many smart people I know who cannot answer the science issue and so decide it is just one data point pointing to innocence. Their response is to list five other things that could point to guilt and say "look, it's five to one" in favor of guilt! However, that is not how this works from a logic standpoint. One data point based on scientific evidence and the absolute laws of nature all but definitively proves nothing happened. Throwing five, ten, twenty circumstantial arguments against the wall to combat it changes nothing. If no crime occurred, there are no possible circumstances in which any of these other acts could have furthered the acts of the alleged crime in question.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
That's fair. If they are not compelled to know the actual facts of the case, that's totally fine. It would seem, then, that making gratuitous statements about the facts of the case, which they haven't seemed to bother to learn, would not be in their best interest, but as noted above, maybe he just doesn't give a shit.
I'm not going to dig into exactly what it and isn't on the record but it is troubling that the opinion begins with the "Colts LB jackson thought the ball was soft after intercepting it" cannard, which isn't even in the Wells report and I'm pretty sure has been totally debunked. The statement of facts is a pretty biased one for this kind of opinion and it does seem to me that Chin and Parker totally think Brady did it and allowed that to influence their thought process.
 

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,712
I'm not going to dig into exactly what it and isn't on the record but it is troubling that the opinion begins with the "Colts LB jackson thought the ball was soft after intercepting it" cannard, which isn't even in the Wells report and I'm pretty sure has been totally debunked. The statement of facts is a pretty biased one for this kind of opinion and it does seem to me that Chin and Parker totally think Brady did it and allowed that to influence their thought process.
I think that's possible, and I put it down to the business with the phone. The record is replete with innocent explanations, as Ed H points out. However, when someone destroys a piece of evidence that has previously been tagged as relevant, what are you supposed to think?

I can't believe Yee counseled this. OTOH, knowing some of the lawyers I've dealt with over the years, maybe I can.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
I'm not going to dig into exactly what it and isn't on the record but it is troubling that the opinion begins with the "Colts LB jackson thought the ball was soft after intercepting it" cannard, which isn't even in the Wells report and I'm pretty sure has been totally debunked. The statement of facts is a pretty biased one for this kind of opinion and it does seem to me that Chin and Parker totally think Brady did it and allowed that to influence their thought process.
It is, I agree.

I think it's a bullshit decision; I'm just not that surprised.
 

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,128
Concord, NH
Otis, you are a thoughtful and reasonable guy, and I cannot help but get a bit bewildered when stuff like the conversations are brought up. In a vacuum, I understand how those conversations could be viewed as you see them (though I agree with others that it would make sense in either context), but the entire conversation ignores a giant elephant in the room, namely that the footballs were almost surely not deflated.

The overwhelming weight of the evidence suggests that the footballs in the AFCCG had exactly the amount of air they were supposed to. All of this peripheral evidence, regardless of how it has been woven by the NFL, almost certainly cannot mean what the NFL wants people to believe it does. Logically, it just cannot. This whole thing is like a bank robbery investigation where it turns out no money was taken from the bank. It doesn't matter how much circumstantial evidence could make it seem like someone was a potential bank robber, that individual did not rob the bank.

There are many smart people I know who cannot answer the science issue and so decide it is just one data point pointing to innocence. Their response is to list five other things that could point to guilt and say "look, it's five to one" in favor of guilt! However, that is not how this works from a logic standpoint. One data point based on scientific evidence and the absolute laws of nature all but definitively proves nothing happened. Throwing five, ten, twenty circumstantial arguments against the wall to combat it changes nothing. If no crime occurred, there are no possible circumstances in which any of these other acts could have furthered the acts of the alleged crime in question.

Exactly. And adding to that, the only attitude that prevails against that is when someone can't let go of how the circumstantial evidence. Can't see how a guy could call himself The Deflator, so there must be smoke! Well, absent of a crime, it's just some guy calling himself The Deflator. Is the weight loss angle here any less believable than this huge conspiracy/cover up over a rounding error in PSI? People shouldn't have to come up with the answers for the circumstantial evidence. Those are variables. The constants are the hard evidence. The hard evidence is the PSI and the weather. If the PSI difference can only be explained by human intervention, then the circumstantial evidence helps paint the rest of the picture. If the hard evidence suggests that it was the weather, then the rest of it is just finding patterns in the noise.