TB Suspension: Cheater free to play again

H78

Fists of Millennial Fury!
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As far as this year goes. Fuck it. Brady having 4 games off then unleashing his fury on the rest of the league is going to make for an epic season. IF the Pats can pull off another SB this year, the haters will have absolutely nothing left.
I agree with most of what you said, but the haters will ALWAYS find a way to discredit TB, BB, and the Patriots as a whole.

If they won it all next year without TB for the first four games, their argument would be "So he won three during the SpyGate era, one during the year of DeflateGate, and one when he didn't even play 1/4 of the season."

There will always be something. Just ignore it.
 

Bongorific

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I don't know anything about the law, but it really does seem strange that they ruled on things that the NFLPA was never allowed to actually present a case on. How do you rule on bias when the issue was never on the table?
The decision stated that these issues were sufficiently briefed below for the court to rule. There was at least one question at oral argument, I think from Chin, regarding RG's possible motivations. I'm not surprised that the court didn't remand.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yup. These guys go in with their eyes wide open. In the case of Snyder and Jones, the contract restructurings that led to the cap penalties were approved by the League before the penalties were imposed.

As for the post above about the divided Court, you should pray for a tie: it only takes 4 votes for a cert petition to be granted.

Finally, for calendar reasons I won't bore people with, a scenario in which TB is taken off the field in January is as close to impossible as you're likely to find. We either lose early, or this gets kicked to 2017 season.
Just a quick note: the league approval of the Skins/Cows contracts was as to form, not as to cap implications. They were consistently told not to do specifically what they did, and were never given any assurances there wouldn't be a penalty for those contracts. I think the penalty they got was too harsh, but they are on very different factual grounds than Brady is.
 

bankshot1

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I'd like to hear TB address today's news. Maybe he should schedule to address the matter and answer questions in a controlled Jim Gray-ish setting about 5 minutes before the start of the NFL Draft Thursday night.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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How? If the reports are to be believed, he and his old boy network couldn't even deliver a relocation to their favored owner instead of an upstart. And others who were clobbered while he sat by and supported Frankenstein's monster chortled when he got his. Guy's as impotent as a Chernobyl cafeteria worker on this stuff, notwithstanding the impression of him as a ninja-pirate Svengali.

Do you think he's just playing possum? Biding his time for . . . what, exactly? Christ, this myth needs to die.
No, I'm thinking within a few years they'll be an issue where he'd like Kraft's support and won't get it as easily as he did when he blatantly lied in the Ray Rice matter. Kraft stood by his man. I'm guessing that will be less likely in the future and I completely envision a scenario where Goodell fucks something up in the next 24 months. I don't think its a myth to hope that an issue arises in the future where Goodell would like Kraft's support and doesn't get it. I'm not sitting here thinking Kraft has a dart board with 12 numbers on it and is going to throw one to pick the month he fires Goodell. I wish that were true. But its not even my myth. I understand the realities here.
 

OCST

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Here's my take:

It's a practical decision for the second circuit, which embraces NY, which is the contractual forum for most commercial contracts, which often contain arbitration clauses.

The second circuit specifically, and federal courts in general, love arbitration because it lessens its docket load, but leaving the law squishy here would only lead to more appeals which would put arbitrable matters back in the federal court system. So, take a hard line, quash ambiguity, lessen appealable issues, unclog the docket, life goes on.
Agree.

The lesson: if your arbitration agreement gives the arbitrator God-like powers, it's very hard to argue that he abused them.

The only solution is to bargain the power away from Rog when the next CBA comes up. The league is more likely to go to the mat on this, so unless the union is willing to go all Norma Rae on this, and walk out, it's not changing.

Of course the union is a weaker negotiator than the league, but that's not the league's fault. The baseball union did better as a union, but its players are harder to replace, and there are fewer of them to unite. Football's stars are tough to replace, but the JAGs aren't going to blow their only shot at the NFL for a walkout, and there are tons more of those guys than there are stars. Out of 53 guys on a roster, how many are fungible? Enough to make the union easy to bust.
 

Bleedred

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No, I'm thinking within a few years they'll be an issue where he'd like Kraft's support and won't get it as easily as he did when he blatantly lied in the Ray Rice matter. Kraft stood by his man. I'm guessing that will be less likely in the future and I completely envision a scenario where Goodell fucks something up in the next 24 months. I don't think its a myth to hope that an issue arises in the future where Goodell would like Kraft's support and doesn't get it. I'm not sitting here thinking Kraft has a dart board with 12 numbers on it and is going to throw one to pick the month he fires Goodell. I wish that were true. But its not even my myth. I understand the realities here.
Kraft is 1 of 31, and I would submit one of the weaker owners at this point. He's had his knees taken out by the league and he's just had to take it. I will say this, if I see one more photo of him playing nice with goodell, shit-eating smiles on their faces, I may vomit.
 

BaseballJones

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The ironic thing, of course, is that Kraft technically is part of the winning side in this court decision. o_O
 

mauf

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The only solution is to bargain the power away from Rog when the next CBA comes up. The league is more likely to go to the mat on this, so unless the union is willing to go all Norma Rae on this, and walk out, it's not changing.
The owners are likely to need something from the players before the end of this decade, and I think the players will insist on getting some restrictions on Goodell's disciplinary authority in return. The Brady case helps the union PR-wise, as it's a lot easier to stand on principle for a guy like Brady than to argue for the due-process rights of guys like Ray Rice or Adrian Peterson, which is the union's main concern.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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I don't agree that he's one of the weaker owners. Since this has gone down, Clark Hunt had his knees cut also. Does your logic apply to him as well? That Hunt and Kraft are in the "weaker" category because they're on the wrong end of league discipline?
 

scotian1

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Wow Skip Bayless basically is accusing Judge Parker and Chin of being on the take for the NFL. I wonder if he will keep his ESPN job!
Skip Bayless ‏@RealSkipBayless 5h5 hours ago
You can't fight City Hall. Brady beat City Hall in round one, then NFL flexed its muscle and perhaps called in favors, pulled strings.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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The owners will likely bargain the discipline appeals to independent arbitration in exchange for more money from the players in the next CBA. So it would be a win/win for owners. A more stable discipline process and more money.
 

Super Nomario

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The owners will likely bargain the discipline appeals to independent arbitration in exchange for more money from the players in the next CBA. So it would be a win/win for owners. A more stable discipline process and more money.
Do you think the players would rather have a fairer discipline process or more money? I kinda think they'd take the money.
 

Bleedred

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I don't agree that he's one of the weaker owners. Since this has gone down, Clark Hunt had his knees cut also. Does your logic apply to him as well? That Hunt and Kraft are in the "weaker" category because they're on the wrong end of league discipline?
What did Hunt lose for his transgressions? two third round picks? What did Kraft lose, for transgressions for which his organization and his coach were exonerated by the Wells report? A 1st, a 4th and $1MM. I'd say that Mr. Hunt received a spanking; Mr. Kraft, a beating.
 

Marciano490

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The owners are likely to need something from the players before the end of this decade, and I think the players will insist on getting some restrictions on Goodell's disciplinary authority in return. The Brady case helps the union PR-wise, as it's a lot easier to stand on principle for a guy like Brady than to argue for the due-process rights of guys like Ray Rice or Adrian Peterson, which is the union's main concern.
Maybe they can waive liability for concussion-related injuries?
 

PaulinMyrBch

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What did Hunt lose for his transgressions? two third round picks? What did Kraft lose, for transgressions for which his organization and his coach were exonerated by the Wells report? A 1st, a 4th and $1MM. I'd say that Mr. Hunt received a spanking; Mr. Kraft, a beating.
3rd, 6th and 250K, plus another 100K to the coaches. Not same category as the Kraft punishment, but still unprecedented for that offense. Clark Hunt isn't walking around feeling like he got off easy in comparison to Kraft. He's specifically mentioned his punishment was unprecedented when compared to other tampering cases.

Kraft and Hunt are both in the top tier of NFL owners IMO. Power-wise. They chair committees and have influence.
 

Bleedred

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3rd, 6th and 250K, plus another 100K to the coaches. Not same category as the Kraft punishment, but still unprecedented for that offense. Clark Hunt isn't walking around feeling like he got off easy in comparison to Kraft. He's specifically mentioned his punishment was unprecedented when compared to other tampering cases.

Kraft and Hunt are both in the top tier of NFL owners IMO. Power-wise. They chair committees and have influence.
Influence? Perhaps with TV contracts, rules committees and the like. On matters of fair play and justice, not so much (don't mind me, I'm really fucking bitter right now).
 

nattysez

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Wow Skip Bayless basically is accusing Judge Parker and Chin of being on the take for the NFL. I wonder if he will keep his ESPN job!
Skip Bayless ‏@RealSkipBayless 5h5 hours ago
You can't fight City Hall. Brady beat City Hall in round one, then NFL flexed its muscle and perhaps called in favors, pulled strings.
Do yourself a favor and never read or listen to Skip Bayless. He is paid millions of dollars to say things that generate controversy, regardless of their veracity. That is literally his job.

FWIW, I'll be pretty surprised if this is not heard en banc (and Brady plays in 2016-7) for all of the reasons Florio stated.
 

Myt1

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Do yourself a favor and never read or listen to Skip Bayless. He is paid millions of dollars to say things that generate controversy, regardless of their veracity. That is literally his job.

FWIW, I'll be pretty surprised if this is not heard en banc (and Brady plays in 2016-7) for all of the reasons Florio stated.
Did he state any reasons for why it would be heard en banc? They were reasons why the NFLPA might seek it, not why it would be granted.

I'll be extremely surprised if it is heard en banc, but I'd like to hear from some others who practice there more (or at all).
 

PedroKsBambino

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So did most of the practitioners here. It was galactically stupid.
It was galactically stupid. However, while ill-advised, he was under no obligation at all to keep or to ever turn it over to Goodell under the NFL's rules, so it's pretty egregious for Chin to suggest it is of much relevance here. To use the logic of the majority opinion, if the NFL wanted to have the CBA require players to keep or turn over their phones as part of disciplinary processes it should have negotiated for that.
 

Norm loves Vera

Joe wants Trump to burn
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I hope Florio is right.. but I am fine with living the rest of my days a little pissed off that the NFL FO and ownership used a "Trump"ed up charge in an attempt to equalize the playing field and minimize the Patriots chances of winning this year and beyond. I would love to see a spread sheet of the NFL FO employees and what teams they worked for before joining the Mothership. TB will get 5 rings..despite the noise.
 

twibnotes

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So hard to give up the NFL, but I can sure as hell give up a lot of the sponsoring products. There is zero doubt in my mind that a well organized boycott could have a real impact on Goodell and the league.
 

Leather

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Jul 18, 2005
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How? If the reports are to be believed, he and his old boy network couldn't even deliver a relocation to their favored owner instead of an upstart. And others who were clobbered while he sat by and supported Frankenstein's monster chortled when he got his. Guy's as impotent as a Chernobyl cafeteria worker on this stuff, notwithstanding the impression of him as a ninja-pirate Svengali.

Do you think he's just playing possum? Biding his time for . . . what, exactly? Christ, this myth needs to die.
This myth is likely a motivating factor for this entire fucking mess. Kraft got used, got a big head, and then got taken down a peg.
 

BaseballJones

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Lawyers help out here please. Why are the chances so small that SCOTUS would hear this if it was brought before them? The "it's just sports" argument isn't really true, is it? After all, the 2nd circuit court's ruling could impact collective bargaining agreements of all kinds. It's not about deflation of footballs; it's about the rights of employees and the relationship between CBAs and United States labor law. That seems to be a rather big deal in this country. I'm sure SCOTUS has in the past heard many cases that seemed to be about a lot smaller things.
 

Leather

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It's not that it's "just sports", it's that the facts of the case, in particular the wording of the CBA, are a one-time thing, so there's likely no precedential value in a SC ruling. It's not like there's a huge group of individuals that might be materially impacted that are currently in limbo while this case shakes out.
 

dcmissle

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Did he state any reasons for why it would be heard en banc? They were reasons why the NFLPA might seek it, not why it would be granted.

I'll be extremely surprised if it is heard en banc, but I'd like to hear from some others who practice there more (or at all).
We're a stats based community; the stats are awful from our standpoint. None other than Chief Judge Katzmann has written about the Second Circuit's "tradition" of deferring to panel determination. Judge Jacob's characterization was less positive -- he complained about the Court taking virtually no en banc cases.

I was consulted about seeking en en banc a few years back. The most recent stats at my disposal, issued by the Administrative Office of the US Courts, covered 2000 through 2010. I recall this Court granting review fewer than 10 times. That's less than once every calendar year. During that period, there were several cases of great public importance where the Court took a pass, triggering lengthy explanations and dissents on at least one occasion.

So if someone says, "I'd be surprised if the Court did not rehear this," I'd to hear why and see his or her data set.

Edit:

Why glum on SCOTUS chances, asked above. It is not a court of error correction; it is a court to resolve Circuit conflicts and really, really important cases -- like whether Obamacare is constitutional, which potentially impacted 320 million people. There is no obvious Circuit conflict on the issues presented here, at least not yet, and the NFL v. TB is just not very important in the big scheme of things.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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In other words, this is SCOTUS we are talking about... not Congress (who would be all over this case like white on rice if it were within their jurisdiction).
 

JimBoSox9

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Semi-random question: do the courts treat all "arbitration" as the same, precedent-wise, or is collectively bargained arbitration viewed differently from something like arbitration clauses in credit card agreements?
 

JimBoSox9

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Well, let's see. I use Verizon for FiOS and my cell phone, I drink a lot of lemon-lime Gatorade when I'm playing sports and use Campbell's Chunky Soups as emergency backup dinners. I appreciate the quality of Bose, the lack thereof of Busch Light, and the affordable consistency of Courtyard by Marriott. Rarely but crucially, I will eat a drive-thru McDonald's double cheeseburger in secret on my way home. Lastly, I'm certain I buy multiple Procter & Gamble products. How the hell do you even start to boycott them?

I could quit any of them, or even all, I suppose. But unfortunely, while peeved at the outcome, I don't really give enough of a shit to lift a finger. Sorry.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Do you think the players would rather have a fairer discipline process or more money? I kinda think they'd take the money.
It's obvious that neither the players nor their representatives ever cared about the arbitration thing during the last negotiation. It seems everyone back then was willing to let the Commissioner exercise whatever judgement was required to protect the integrity of the game, particularly if it came down to cheating. It's not a position that 's difficult to understand.

Recent reports have the Commissioner now interested in unilaterally changing the process to remove himself from the position of judge and jury. That's also not difficult to understand given the shit smeared all over his face. Why would he even want to be the arbitrator in the first place?

If my thinking is correct, the players won't give anything up to change this rule. Who would agree to any pocketbook implications for something that will never touch 95% of the union's players? They didn't care back when, and they shouldn't care now. The League made their point and example. I'm sure they'd love the NFLPA to negotiate a trade-off. The NFLPA would be idiots to give anything up for that trade.
 

twibnotes

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Well, let's see. I use Verizon for FiOS and my cell phone, I drink a lot of lemon-lime Gatorade when I'm playing sports and use Campbell's Chunky Soups as emergency backup dinners. I appreciate the quality of Bose, the lack thereof of Busch Light, and the affordable consistency of Courtyard by Marriott. Rarely but crucially, I will eat a drive-thru McDonald's double cheeseburger in secret on my way home. Lastly, I'm certain I buy multiple Procter & Gamble products. How the hell do you even start to boycott them?

I could quit any of them, or even all, I suppose. But unfortunely, while peeved at the outcome, I don't really give enough of a shit to lift a finger. Sorry.

I think a lot of pats fans are enraged - a boycott of some kind seems plausible to me.

Edit: worth noting that the threat of a boycott is itself a weapon
 

Myt1

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Semi-random question: do the courts treat all "arbitration" as the same, precedent-wise, or is collectively bargained arbitration viewed differently from something like arbitration clauses in credit card agreements?
Arbitration is given substantial deference. CBA arbitration is basically substantial deference on steroids.
 

tims4wins

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It's obvious that neither the players nor their representatives ever cared about the arbitration thing during the last negotiation. It seems everyone back then was willing to let the Commissioner exercise whatever judgement was required to protect the integrity of the game, particularly if it came down to cheating. It's not a position that 's difficult to understand.

Recent reports have the Commissioner now interested in unilaterally changing the process to remove himself from the position of judge and jury. That's also not difficult to understand given the shit smeared all over his face. Why would he even want to be the arbitrator in the first place?

If my thinking is correct, the players won't give anything up to change this rule. Who would agree to any pocketbook implications for something that will never touch 95% of the union's players? They didn't care back when, and they shouldn't care now. The League made their point and example. I'm sure they'd love the NFLPA to negotiate a trade-off. The NFLPA would be idiots to give anything up for that trade.
This is all so true

My question to the board: at what point did the NFL realize that they had an avenue toward this end game? When did this become about the CBA, as opposed to PSI?
 

dcmissle

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This is all so true

My question to the board: at what point did the NFL realize that they had an avenue toward this end game? When did this become about the CBA, as opposed to PSI?
When Kensil roamed the sidelines during the AFC Championship game, taunting "we caught you fuckers this time. You're dead."
 

Bleedred

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I think a lot of pats fans are enraged - a boycott of some kind seems plausible to me.

Edit: worth noting that the threat of a boycott is itself a weapon
I think that it is utterly delusional to suggest that a boycott is plausible. But since we won't agree, I'll stop responding.
 

Myt1

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It was galactically stupid. However, while ill-advised, he was under no obligation at all to keep or to ever turn it over to Goodell under the NFL's rules, so it's pretty egregious for Chin to suggest it is of much relevance here. To use the logic of the majority opinion, if the NFL wanted to have the CBA require players to keep or turn over their phones as part of disciplinary processes it should have negotiated for that.
That's not the logic of the majority opinion. I don't think it makes sense to play whack a mole, but generally speaking, conceding the tribunal to opposing party in a bargain is a bad idea because that person fills in reasonable gaps. It's basically a super concession that controls many other issues.