TB Suspension: Cheater free to play again

doc

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SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
4,140
What happens with Goodells power if the Supreme Court doesnt hear this but then the NFLPA wins the Peterson case?
I think that's what the NFLPA is waiting for, split deductions between two separate appeal courts
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
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Aug 4, 2005
28,269
Brady hired Gibson Dunn when this was at trial level. Olson represented Union when they switched horses after appeal.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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I do love the last few lines of that letter. It is sad when the truth and scientific fact gets in the way (contradicts) the fantasy spun by the NFL during the entire saga.
Wasn't the Ideal Gas Law not plausible to the NFL?
This will be my only discussion of deflategate. I will post nothing more. You can rage against my machine all you want, the time is yours.

With that:

- The Ideal Gas Law, the measurements, et al neither proves nor disproves guilt in the AFC Championship game. As the former head of Physics at Princeton noted (paraphrasing) the data was sufficient to imply that the balls had been tampered with, meriting further investigation.
- The texts,combined with the guy who wasn't supposed to touch the balls prior to the game (who had been identified in the texts as "the deflator") disappearing into a bathroom for 90 seconds with the balls were what caused the commissioner to find Brady guilty.
- Brady's non-cooperation ended up being optically poor for him. His non-cooperation included two lies in the process; 1) That he always destroyed his phones (it later came out that he didn't), and 2) That he didn't know the names of one of the equipment guys he had been texting with and who had worked with him for his entire career. These lies also hurt his testimony and didn't help him in the court of non-New England public opinion.
- Whether four games is fair or not is a reasonable conversation. Cheating in an AFC Championship game does seem to merit more than a $50k fine, and federal judges seem to think that Goodell has the leeway to make that call. I personally feel that two games would have been more appropriate, but oddly enough, I wasn't interviewed as part of the process. The first round pick probably was fair as the team were repeat offenders. But that is commissioner stuff.

But let's not act like the league lied, or that they don't understand science.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Lifetime Member
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Where do I say anything about Brady? If anything, my post more has to do with the angle you mention than any Brady-centric conspiracy theory.
I was referring to others regarding Brady, but you regarding his rivals. I just don't think that the league is going to let Manning ride (which I think blows, and is more PED bullshit from the league) but will nail the other players, unless the other players literally slam roids in front of Goodell. And even then......
 

heavyde050

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2006
6,899
San Francisco
This will be my only discussion of deflategate. I will post nothing more. You can rage against my machine all you want, the time is yours.

With that:

- The Ideal Gas Law, the measurements, et al neither proves nor disproves guilt in the AFC Championship game. As the former head of Physics at Princeton noted (paraphrasing) the data was sufficient to imply that the balls had been tampered with, meriting further investigation.
- The texts,combined with the guy who wasn't supposed to touch the balls prior to the game (who had been identified in the texts as "the deflator") disappearing into a bathroom for 90 seconds with the balls were what caused the commissioner to find Brady guilty.
- Brady's non-cooperation ended up being optically poor for him. His non-cooperation included two lies in the process; 1) That he always destroyed his phones (it later came out that he didn't), and 2) That he didn't know the names of one of the equipment guys he had been texting with and who had worked with him for his entire career. These lies also hurt his testimony and didn't help him in the court of non-New England public opinion.
- Whether four games is fair or not is a reasonable conversation. Cheating in an AFC Championship game does seem to merit more than a $50k fine, and federal judges seem to think that Goodell has the leeway to make that call. I personally feel that two games would have been more appropriate, but oddly enough, I wasn't interviewed as part of the process. The first round pick probably was fair as the team were repeat offenders. But that is commissioner stuff.

But let's not act like the league lied, or that they don't understand science.
You bring up some good points. But the NFL did lie when it mischaracterized Brady's testimony.

I do believe that something could have happened to those balls, but the NFL had no process to tell if any tampering happened.

I will also be done after this post, but let us not think for even one second the crime, investigation, or the punishment were on the level.
 

RGREELEY33

Potty Mouth
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
4,317
Orange County, CA
This will be my only discussion of deflategate. I will post nothing more. You can rage against my machine all you want, the time is yours.

With that:

- Brady's non-cooperation ended up being optically poor for him. His non-cooperation included two lies in the process; 1) That he always destroyed his phones (it later came out that he didn't), and 2) That he didn't know the names of one of the equipment guys he had been texting with and who had worked with him for his entire career. These lies also hurt his testimony and didn't help him in the court of non-New England public opinion.

But let's not act like the league lied, or that they don't understand science.
- Brady never texted with "The Deflator". He only texted and talked with Jastremski. Brady knew "The Deflator" by his nickname, as he was a part-time ball boy that he had limited interaction with.

- The league did lie on multiple occasions. It is fact. Goodell himself lied, as shown in transcripts about his characterization of Brady's conversations with Jastremski pre-Superbowl. He was caught red-handed in that lie.

Feel free to post faux rage about Pats fans rage, but please post factual information.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
35,881
- Brady never texted with "The Deflator". He only texted and talked with Jastremski. Brady knew "The Deflator" by his nickname, as he was a part-time ball boy that he had limited interaction with.

- The league did lie on multiple occasions. It is fact. Goodell himself lied, as shown in transcripts about his characterization of Brady's conversations with Jastremski pre-Superbowl. He was caught red-handed in that lie.

Feel free to post faux rage about Pats fans rage, but please post factual information.
One of these days someone will get the facts straight.
 
Jul 18, 2005
23
You bring up some good points. But the NFL did lie when it mischaracterized Brady's testimony.
No, he doesn't bring up good points. There is only one point that is accurate (the cellphone destruction not being as routine as Brady claimed). The rest all have subtle, but important, mistatements or omissions that undermine the point. Some have already been addressed, and correcting the rest really belongs in the other thread. He's either trolling or he is willfully ignoring the facts, in which case he should not be so quick to educate others.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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No, he doesn't bring up good points. There is only one point that is accurate (the cellphone destruction not being as routine as Brady claimed). The rest all have subtle, but important, mistatements or omissions that undermine the point. Some have already been addressed, and correcting the rest really belongs in the other thread. He's either trolling or he is willfully ignoring the facts, in which case he should not be so quick to educate others.
Actually, they don't. All are factual and quite correct. If you choose to parse words and claim "he never texted to The deflator directly" as claim that he didn't know him I would ask you what you are smoking. He had, as a point of fact, given him multiple items, had worked with him as the handler of his balls since the start of his career, and was actively texting about the guy and having messages sent through Jastremski. But summarily, if the guy who was handling the balls was known to him as "The Deflator", do you not think that says something about Brady? Would you go to a mechanic who had the nickname "guy who uses stolen car parts in his repairs?" I mean, at the very least you would ask the question, no?

As for the rest of my post, where are you claiming I fabricated? Even the part about Goodell "lying" about Brady's testimony was pretty subjective and certainly wasn't the foundation for the punishment.

Coming back around to the root issue....the league isn't targeting any person or team unfairly. Just stop.

This manning bullshit is, admittedly, pure bullshit. He HGH'ed Like a member of the 70s Raiders and the league doesn't want anyone to know about its PED problem. The entire process they use to identify users is bullshit and meant to ensure that everyone but the guys who buy off the street in Tijuana get caught. THAT is a fuxking outrage.
 

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
11,305
Michigan
Actually, they don't. All are factual and quite correct. If you choose to parse words and claim "he never texted to The deflator directly" as claim that he didn't know him I would ask you what you are smoking. He had, as a point of fact, given him multiple items, had worked with him as the handler of his balls since the start of his career, and was actively texting about the guy and having messages sent through Jastremski. But summarily, if the guy who was handling the balls was known to him as "The Deflator", do you not think that says something about Brady? Would you go to a mechanic who had the nickname "guy who uses stolen car parts in his repairs?" I mean, at the very least you would ask the question, no?

As for the rest of my post, where are you claiming I fabricated? Even the part about Goodell "lying" about Brady's testimony was pretty subjective and certainly wasn't the foundation for the punishment.

Coming back around to the root issue....the league isn't targeting any person or team unfairly. Just stop.

This manning bullshit is, admittedly, pure bullshit. He HGH'ed Like a member of the 70s Raiders and the league doesn't want anyone to know about its PED problem. The entire process they use to identify users is bullshit and meant to ensure that everyone but the guys who buy off the street in Tijuana get caught. THAT is a fuxking outrage.
Umm... you promised three posts ago that it was your last post on the subject.
 
Jul 31, 2005
34
This will be my only discussion of deflategate. I will post nothing more. You can rage against my machine all you want, the time is yours.

With that:

- The Ideal Gas Law, the measurements, et al neither proves nor disproves guilt in the AFC Championship game. As the former head of Physics at Princeton noted (paraphrasing) the data was sufficient to imply that the balls had been tampered with, meriting further investigation.
- The texts,combined with the guy who wasn't supposed to touch the balls prior to the game (who had been identified in the texts as "the deflator") disappearing into a bathroom for 90 seconds with the balls were what caused the commissioner to find Brady guilty.
- Brady's non-cooperation ended up being optically poor for him. His non-cooperation included two lies in the process; 1) That he always destroyed his phones (it later came out that he didn't), and 2) That he didn't know the names of one of the equipment guys he had been texting with and who had worked with him for his entire career. These lies also hurt his testimony and didn't help him in the court of non-New England public opinion.
- Whether four games is fair or not is a reasonable conversation. Cheating in an AFC Championship game does seem to merit more than a $50k fine, and federal judges seem to think that Goodell has the leeway to make that call. I personally feel that two games would have been more appropriate, but oddly enough, I wasn't interviewed as part of the process. The first round pick probably was fair as the team were repeat offenders. But that is commissioner stuff.

But let's not act like the league lied, or that they don't understand science.
The fact that there is no proof of any kind for any deflation during the AFC Championship Game is the reason there should be no punishment. The balls were not measured with any accuracy at all, and the NFL passed along their measurement numbers as accurate and proof of deflation. This is either the NFL lying or the NFL not understanding science.
 
Jul 18, 2005
23
This will be my only discussion of deflategate. I will post nothing more. You can rage against my machine all you want, the time is yours.

With that:

- The Ideal Gas Law, the measurements, et al neither proves nor disproves guilt in the AFC Championship game. As the former head of Physics at Princeton noted (paraphrasing) the data was sufficient to imply that the balls had been tampered with, meriting further investigation.
- The texts,combined with the guy who wasn't supposed to touch the balls prior to the game (who had been identified in the texts as "the deflator") disappearing into a bathroom for 90 seconds with the balls were what caused the commissioner to find Brady guilty.
- Brady's non-cooperation ended up being optically poor for him. His non-cooperation included two lies in the process; 1) That he always destroyed his phones (it later came out that he didn't), and 2) That he didn't know the names of one of the equipment guys he had been texting with and who had worked with him for his entire career. These lies also hurt his testimony and didn't help him in the court of non-New England public opinion.
- Whether four games is fair or not is a reasonable conversation. Cheating in an AFC Championship game does seem to merit more than a $50k fine, and federal judges seem to think that Goodell has the leeway to make that call. I personally feel that two games would have been more appropriate, but oddly enough, I wasn't interviewed as part of the process. The first round pick probably was fair as the team were repeat offenders. But that is commissioner stuff.

But let's not act like the league lied, or that they don't understand science.
Since you claim to really want to know:
  • The data is not enough to imply tampering. When the Princeton prof answers the widespread criticism of his work that you can verify yourself with a calculator or a refrigerator, I'll be all ears.
  • Texts should be singular. One text in may of the prior offseason. Sounds like a minor mistake but it is widespread and key to changing his nickname from Bird to Deflator post hoc. NFL counsel was called out for misleading the circuit court in exactly this way.
  • Handling the footballs before the game is his job.
  • Brady never texted Bird and barely knew who he was. He interfaced with Bird's effective boss and co-doritodink, Jaztremski.
  • The patriots are not repeat offenders by any definition that does not include every other team in the NFL, a few of which have actually tampered with balls in important games and avoided penalty entirely.
  • The league lied so many times it would have to be a separate post. They also have admitted to not understanding the science.
 

judyb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
4,431
Wilmington MA
Actually, they don't. All are factual and quite correct. If you choose to parse words and claim "he never texted to The deflator directly" as claim that he didn't know him I would ask you what you are smoking. He had, as a point of fact, given him multiple items, had worked with him as the handler of his balls since the start of his career, and was actively texting about the guy and having messages sent through Jastremski. But summarily, if the guy who was handling the balls was known to him as "The Deflator", do you not think that says something about Brady? Would you go to a mechanic who had the nickname "guy who uses stolen car parts in his repairs?" I mean, at the very least you would ask the question, no?

As for the rest of my post, where are you claiming I fabricated? Even the part about Goodell "lying" about Brady's testimony was pretty subjective and certainly wasn't the foundation for the punishment.

Coming back around to the root issue....the league isn't targeting any person or team unfairly. Just stop.

This manning bullshit is, admittedly, pure bullshit. He HGH'ed Like a member of the 70s Raiders and the league doesn't want anyone to know about its PED problem. The entire process they use to identify users is bullshit and meant to ensure that everyone but the guys who buy off the street in Tijuana get caught. THAT is a fuxking outrage.
Why exactly do you believe all those things are factual and correct? Because you were told them by the same people who told you the NFL never had the Ray Rice video? The same people who told you the NFL had no reason to think head injuries can cause serious long term health problems?
 
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RGREELEY33

Potty Mouth
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
4,317
Orange County, CA
All are factual and quite correct..
This will be my only discussion of deflategate. I will post nothing more. You can rage against my machine all you want, the time is yours.

With that:

- The Ideal Gas Law, the measurements, et al neither proves nor disproves guilt in the AFC Championship game. As the former head of Physics at Princeton noted (paraphrasing) the data was sufficient to imply that the balls had been tampered with, meriting further investigation.
- The texts,combined with the guy who wasn't supposed to touch the balls prior to the game (who had been identified in the texts as "the deflator") disappearing into a bathroom for 90 seconds with the balls were what caused the commissioner to find Brady guilty.
- Brady's non-cooperation ended up being optically poor for him. His non-cooperation included two lies in the process; 1) That he always destroyed his phones (it later came out that he didn't), and 2) That he didn't know the names of one of the equipment guys he had been texting with and who had worked with him for his entire career. These lies also hurt his testimony and didn't help him in the court of non-New England public opinion.
- Whether four games is fair or not is a reasonable conversation. Cheating in an AFC Championship game does seem to merit more than a $50k fine, and federal judges seem to think that Goodell has the leeway to make that call. I personally feel that two games would have been more appropriate, but oddly enough, I wasn't interviewed as part of the process. The first round pick probably was fair as the team were repeat offenders. But that is commissioner stuff.

But let's not act like the league lied, or that they don't understand science.
No, they are not all factual and correct.

--While your first point can be argued to be valid, you cherry-picked the one guy who did say the data showed something had happened. The problem of course, as we all know from the actual Wells Report, the data itself is highly questionable. There is legitimate argument about which gauges were used -- the Wells Report actually contradicts what the actual referee said happened. Similar data existed for the Colts balls -- yet, only 3 of their 11 balls were even "tested" at halftime.

-- You are literally making this point up. The "texts" were not plural -- it was ONE text where he was actually referred to as "The Deflator", that was from 8 months prior to this incident -- and it was between he and his colleague. Brady had no reference at all that anyone was called "The Deflator". He was also the Patriots BALL BOY. His job was to touch the balls, inflate/deflate the balls, and get the balls to Brady's liking. That was his job -- and everyone in the building knew Brady liked his balls at the lowest limit, much the way everyone in GB knew that Rodgers liked his balls at the maximum threshold.

-- You stated Brady "didn't know the names of one of the guys he had been texting.". It isn't parsing of words to say you are full of shit here. Brady NEVER texted him. Never called him. Barely interacted with the guy who was a part-time ball boy who only worked on game days. He knew him by his nickname, and referenced him by such in the Wells Report on multiple occasions as "Bird".

-- You stated the League did not lie, and did understand science. These are both factually and 100% incorrect. The Commissioner blatantly lied in his comments about Brady's testimony as I previously mentioned. The guy that ran the investigation and came down with the discipline also testified in the Wells Report that he had no idea what the Ideal Gas Law was. Had never heard of it. Didn't realize that balls would naturally lose air due to atmospheric conditions. He testified to this.

So, I will now actually keep my word an no longer comment because you're clearly trolling. Just post better or spare us all the faux rage. There is 900 pages of this stuff -- all the details are there -- read it or stop wasting our time.
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
7,837
Boston, MA
I'm trying to put together the evidence most incriminating to Brady, but limiting it to Facts, not supposition. This is what I could come up with

-destroys his cellphone the day of the Goodell interview (Yee is a moron)
-"Deflator" text between McNally and Jastremski in April, 6 months prior to the season of the Indy AFCCG. 1 text calling himself the deflator
-McNally receives a bunch of Swag from Brady at year end (yes, I know that's normal and routine, but I'm erring on being over inclusive)
-McNally took the balls to the bathroom for 94 seconds, which was not protocol
-NEP deny Wells the right to interview McNally a 2nd time. (Wells only had the chance to interview him once; NFL offices interviewed him 3 times)

Am I missing any other Facts? Again, I'm not looking for things that can be "gleaned from the Facts" but just the Facts themselves. Please don't put up the measurements of the footballs by the Wells report. That is, at best, inconclusive and therefore there are no facts related to ball inflation or underinflation. Moerover, it is not a fact that Brady new McNally's name. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but that is not proven, so leave that off.
 
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RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
46,343
deep inside Guido territory
I'm trying to put together the evidence most incriminating to Brady, but limiting it to Facts, not supposition. This is what I could come up with

-destroys his cellphone the day of the Goodell interview (Yee is a moron)
-"Deflator" text between McNally and Jastremski in April, 6 months prior to the season of the Indy AFCCG. 1 text calling himself the deflator
-McNally receives a bunch of Swag from Brady at year end (yes, I know that's normal and routine, but I'm erring on being over inclusive)
-NEP deny Wells the right to interview McNally a 2nd time. (Wells only had the chance to interview him once; NFL offices interviewed him 3 times)

Am I missing any other Facts? Again, I'm not looking for things that can be "gleaned from the Facts" but just the Facts themselves. Please don't put up the measurements of the footballs by the Wells report. That is, at best, inconclusive and therefore there are no facts related to ball inflation or underinflation. Moerover, it is not a fact that Brady new McNally's name. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but that is not proven, so leave that off.
Brady destroyed his cell phone, but let's also not forget Ted Wells said they didn't need the cell phone.
 

Beale13

lurker
Feb 2, 2006
67
This will be my only discussion of deflategate. I will post nothing more. You can rage against my machine all you want, the time is yours.

With that:

- The Ideal Gas Law, the measurements, et al neither proves nor disproves guilt in the AFC Championship game. As the former head of Physics at Princeton noted (paraphrasing) the data was sufficient to imply that the balls had been tampered with, meriting further investigation.
- The texts,combined with the guy who wasn't supposed to touch the balls prior to the game (who had been identified in the texts as "the deflator") disappearing into a bathroom for 90 seconds with the balls were what caused the commissioner to find Brady guilty.
- Brady's non-cooperation ended up being optically poor for him. His non-cooperation included two lies in the process; 1) That he always destroyed his phones (it later came out that he didn't), and 2) That he didn't know the names of one of the equipment guys he had been texting with and who had worked with him for his entire career. These lies also hurt his testimony and didn't help him in the court of non-New England public opinion.
- Whether four games is fair or not is a reasonable conversation. Cheating in an AFC Championship game does seem to merit more than a $50k fine, and federal judges seem to think that Goodell has the leeway to make that call. I personally feel that two games would have been more appropriate, but oddly enough, I wasn't interviewed as part of the process. The first round pick probably was fair as the team were repeat offenders. But that is commissioner stuff.

But let's not act like the league lied, or that they don't understand science.

There was no need to keep reading after the first sentence of the first bullet point. First of all, the science has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. The most it can do in this case is prove that a crime was committed in the first place. And it doesn't. Implying that the science has to *disprove* the commission of this crime is not only shifting the burden where it legally doesn't belong, it sets an impossible standard (how would science ever show that human intervention couldn't have accounted for some small percentage of the deflation) that does nothing but illustrate the bias of the writer.
 

troparra

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 3, 2007
1,832
Michigan
I'm trying to put together the evidence most incriminating to Brady, but limiting it to Facts, not supposition. This is what I could come up with

-destroys his cellphone the day of the Goodell interview (Yee is a moron)
-"Deflator" text between McNally and Jastremski in April, 6 months prior to the season of the Indy AFCCG. 1 text calling himself the deflator
-McNally receives a bunch of Swag from Brady at year end (yes, I know that's normal and routine, but I'm erring on being over inclusive)
-NEP deny Wells the right to interview McNally a 2nd time. (Wells only had the chance to interview him once; NFL offices interviewed him 3 times)

Am I missing any other Facts?
Well, McNally left the officials' locker room with the balls without permission, which according to the refs had never happened before. Then McNally went into the bathroom with the bag of balls.

And McNally and Jastremski had a few texts between each other discussing how Tom hates the balls when they are overinflated.

McNally also texted this: "Chill buddy im just fuckin with you ....im not going to espn........yet" , which was in the context of the "deflator" text of May 2014.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
25,099
Hingham, MA
Well, McNally left the officials' locker room with the balls without permission, which according to the refs had never happened before. Then McNally went into the bathroom with the bag of balls.

And McNally and Jastremski had a few texts between each other discussing how Tom hates the balls when they are overinflated.

McNally also texted this: "Chill buddy im just fuckin with you ....im not going to espn........yet" , which was in the context of the "deflator" text of May 2014.
But to your first point, this happened AGAIN after halftime - leaving the locker room alone - and no one seemed to care.
 

AB in DC

OG Football Writing
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2002
7,678
Springfield, VA
Actually, they don't. All are factual and quite correct.
I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. I'm fascinated by the drive-by post here that you decided to do, but some of your statements have been proven to be incorrect. I'm not talking about a matter of interpretation, I'm saying 100% flat wrong.

For example, you seem to be mixing up Jastremski and McNally. It was Jastremski who Brady had the relationship with, going back a long time. But it was McNally that once referred to himself as Deflator. It is now 100% undisputed that Brady was familiar with McNally using a nickname ("Bird") and that Brady did not lie about the relationship. (Goodell completely dropped any reference about this relationship from his appeal finding, so we can only assume that even the NFL realizes that the Wells report was incorrect about this.)
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
9,000
But to your first point, this happened AGAIN after halftime - leaving the locker room alone - and no one seemed to care.
It not only happened again, but the NFL security official that was supposed to prevent this unprecedented event from happening held the door for him. So, reasonably speaking, it probably happened all the time and only became a big deal as part of the NFL's laughable crusade to protect the integrity of the game.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
9,766
I'm trying to put together the evidence most incriminating to Brady, but limiting it to Facts, not supposition. This is what I could come up with

-destroys his cellphone the day of the Goodell interview (Yee is a moron)
-"Deflator" text between McNally and Jastremski in April, 6 months prior to the season of the Indy AFCCG. 1 text calling himself the deflator
-McNally receives a bunch of Swag from Brady at year end (yes, I know that's normal and routine, but I'm erring on being over inclusive)
-McNally took the balls to the bathroom for 94 seconds, which was not protocol
-NEP deny Wells the right to interview McNally a 2nd time. (Wells only had the chance to interview him once; NFL offices interviewed him 3 times)

Am I missing any other Facts? Again, I'm not looking for things that can be "gleaned from the Facts" but just the Facts themselves. Please don't put up the measurements of the footballs by the Wells report. That is, at best, inconclusive and therefore there are no facts related to ball inflation or underinflation. Moerover, it is not a fact that Brady new McNally's name. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but that is not proven, so leave that off.
Well, those things and the fact that the Patriots' footballs WERE under the legal limit of 12.5 when they were measured at halftime. Obviously to many people, this fact alone is enough to incriminate Brady. If they measured at 12.7, I don't think this is even an issue.
 

heavyde050

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2006
6,899
San Francisco
Well, those things and the fact that the Patriots' footballs WERE under the legal limit of 12.5 when they were measured at halftime. Obviously to many people, this fact alone is enough to incriminate Brady. If they measured at 12.7, I don't think this is even an issue.
I did say I was going to be done, so I apologize up front, but the post above brings up a great point that leads me to a question.

Does the rule book state that the footballs must start the game between the given range (i.e. no lower than 12.5 PSI) or does the rule state that the footballs must maintain air pressure in the range throughout the game.

I would think the rule would specify at kickoff bc there is no way to tell what will happen to a ball during the game.

Does anyone know the answer on the specific language of the rule?
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
9,766
I did say I was going to be done, so I apologize up front, but the post above brings up a great point that leads me to a question.

Does the rule book state that the footballs must start the game between the given range (i.e. no lower than 12.5 PSI) or does the rule state that the footballs must maintain air pressure in the range throughout the game.

I would think the rule would specify at kickoff bc there is no way to tell what will happen to a ball during the game.

Does anyone know the answer on the specific language of the rule?
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/5_2013_Ball.pdf

"Rule 2 The Ball

Section 1

BALL DIMENSIONS

The Ball must be a “Wilson,” hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.

The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case (natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall be: long axis, 11 to 11 1/4 inches; long circumference, 28 to 28 1/2 inches; short circumference, 21 to 21 1/4 inches; weight, 14 to 15 ounces.

The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game.

Section 2

BALL SUPPLY

Each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all stadiums. In addition, the visitors, at their discretion, may bring 12 backup balls to be tested by the Referee for games held in outdoor stadiums. For all games, eight new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer to the Referee, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked by the Referee and used exclusively for the kicking game.

In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner.

In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of the offensive team’s center. The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs).

Note: It is the responsibility of the home team to furnish playable balls at all times by attendants from either side of the playing field."



In other words, the rule doesn't answer your question of whether the ball needs to *start* between 12.5-13.5, and from there, whatever the weather conditions do to the ball is fair game, or whether the ball needs to *remain* between 12.5-13.5 all game long.

Obviously, we know the temperature and weather greatly affects the psi of the ball. This is simple middle school science. If the NFL really cared about the ball pressure *all game long*, they'd be regularly testing and re-inflating (or deflating, as the case may be) footballs during the course of the game, to ensure that they remain in legal range.

But clearly they don't do that. Which means that they only care about the air pressure at the START of football games. But then, if they only care about the air pressure at the START of football games, who freaking cares if the balls are under inflated in the 2nd quarter?

So long as nobody is tampering with them, WHO CARES WHAT THE FOOTBALL AIR PRESSURE IS? Clearly, the NFL doesn't actually care.
 

heavyde050

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2006
6,899
San Francisco
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/5_2013_Ball.pdf

"Rule 2 The Ball

Section 1

BALL DIMENSIONS

The Ball must be a “Wilson,” hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.

The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case (natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall be: long axis, 11 to 11 1/4 inches; long circumference, 28 to 28 1/2 inches; short circumference, 21 to 21 1/4 inches; weight, 14 to 15 ounces.

The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game.

Section 2

BALL SUPPLY

Each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all stadiums. In addition, the visitors, at their discretion, may bring 12 backup balls to be tested by the Referee for games held in outdoor stadiums. For all games, eight new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer to the Referee, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked by the Referee and used exclusively for the kicking game.

In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner.

In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of the offensive team’s center. The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs).

Note: It is the responsibility of the home team to furnish playable balls at all times by attendants from either side of the playing field."



In other words, the rule doesn't answer your question of whether the ball needs to *start* between 12.5-13.5, and from there, whatever the weather conditions do to the ball is fair game, or whether the ball needs to *remain* between 12.5-13.5 all game long.

Obviously, we know the temperature and weather greatly affects the psi of the ball. This is simple middle school science. If the NFL really cared about the ball pressure *all game long*, they'd be regularly testing and re-inflating (or deflating, as the case may be) footballs during the course of the game, to ensure that they remain in legal range.

But clearly they don't do that. Which means that they only care about the air pressure at the START of football games. But then, if they only care about the air pressure at the START of football games, who freaking cares if the balls are under inflated in the 2nd quarter?

So long as nobody is tampering with them, WHO CARES WHAT THE FOOTBALL AIR PRESSURE IS? Clearly, the NFL doesn't actually care.
Thank you for posting and clarifying the rule.
 

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,586
I feel I'm living a zombie horror flick where the bloodied cadaver emerges from the grave where I'd interred him, and starts stumbling towards me again.

Anyway, two things linger with me:

1. The destruction of the phone. Nothing explains this. I'm sorry. Every first-year lawyer knows that the moment litigation (or a parallel proceeding, like this) threatens, you put the destruction of all records and data on hold. That is, all records and data, not whatever your client thinks is relevant. That's not to be decided unilaterally. If Tom was truly relying on a prior Wells' statement, Yee should have confirmed this with a letter or email to Wells. Then, you have a very different picture.

2. The refusal to permit an additional interview with McNally. Presumably, Kraft and his outside counsel know the NFL rules about cooperation. Why stonewall? Because, I'm afraid, in the meanwhile they had discovered something likely to turn up on a further interview that spelled trouble, and the choices were between bad (stonewalling) and impossible (encouraging a lie). Then, you roll the dice and hope for the best.

I can easily see how these facts can bother the disinterested observer. For clarity's sake, I'm 100% an NEP/Brady fan (except for the Trump friendships), and they bother me.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
43,237
Rotten Apple
While I'm here, one of the lawyers can point to the American legal precedent that escalates generally aware to conspiracy ringmaster based on no direct evidence just for funzies.
 

troparra

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 3, 2007
1,832
Michigan
Well, those things and the fact that the Patriots' footballs WERE under the legal limit of 12.5 when they were measured at halftime. Obviously to many people, this fact alone is enough to incriminate Brady. If they measured at 12.7, I don't think this is even an issue.
Regarding the data, the only actual data points that exist in this whole affair are:
1. Halftime measurements (11 Pats' balls, 4 Colts' balls)
2. Post-game measurements (4 Pats' balls, 4 Colts' balls) (p. 73 of Wells Report)

Major findings of the Wells Report:
1. Halftime measurements: Pats' balls dropped approximately 0.7 psi more than the Colts' balls
2. Post-game measurements: Data excluded from analysis (see footnote 44 on p. 73)

However, using my keen mind and an understanding of 4th grade mathematics, I was able to determine that the Pats' balls post-game had an average air pressure that was approximately 0.7 psi higher than the Colts' balls post-game.

There is only one valid interpretation of the post-game findings - the Pats' balls were measured (and reinflated to 13.0 psi) at halftime when cold. The Colts' balls were measured when warm (they were never reinflated). If both sets of balls were allowed to equilibrate to room temperature at halftime, it would have been found that both sets of balls dropped in pressure the exact same amount.

Any other interpretation for the post-game measurement differences would include things like the gauges being inaccurate, the referees being incompetent, the balls being measured at different temperatures, etc., which would undermine the entirety of Exponent's analysis.

They say you can't prove a negative, however this data seems to be very strong evidence that nothing happened.
 

JokersWildJIMED

Blinded by Borges
SoSH Member
Oct 7, 2004
1,791
Certainly the phone and text are bad facts, but it is impossible to prove a negative...the vast majority of scientists have concluded that there was no proof of deflation, and that should be the end of it. However, if we assume there was tampering, then what exactly happened and why? There was literally, at most, a wisp of air removed from each ball. Why? If Brady really wanted deflated balls he would have wanted more than one or two of the twelve at less than 12.47, wouldn't he? Seems to me if we assume there was deflation then it occurred because McNally simply re-tested the PSI of the balls in bathroom.
 

Hoya81

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 3, 2010
4,916
I feel I'm living a zombie horror flick where the bloodied cadaver emerges from the grave where I'd interred him, and starts stumbling towards me again.

Anyway, two things linger with me:

1. The destruction of the phone. Nothing explains this. I'm sorry. Every first-year lawyer knows that the moment litigation (or a parallel proceeding, like this) threatens, you put the destruction of all records and data on hold.

2. The refusal to permit an additional interview with McNally. Presumably, Kraft and his outside counsel know the NFL rules about cooperation. Why stonewall? Because, I'm afraid, in the meanwhile they had discovered something likely to turn up on a further interview that spelled trouble, and the choices were between bad (stonewalling) and impossible (encouraging a lie).
He was getting suspended even if he turns in the phone and it comes up clean. The deflator text and the post AFC communications between TB and JJ would have been enough. It's a total red herring. If not providing the phone was evidence of involvement in a ball tampering scheme, Gostkowski should have been suspended as well.

Wells and the NEP had an agreement that Pats employees would be interviewed once only.
 

Hoya81

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 3, 2010
4,916
Could the Patriots have compelled McNally to do another interview if he didn't want to?
Possibly, but he was/isn't a full time employee, just working game days. The initial agreement stated that Wells would only need one interview, barring unforeseen circumstances. When they came back to the Patriots to interview again, they refused to say what they wanted that would justify altering the agreement.

McNally was reluctant to take more time away from his day job to do an inperson interview (he lives in NH), especially after the ESPN Kelly Naqi story in February 2015 revealed his name and address. The NEP offered to make McNally available by phone etc, but never heard back from Wells.
 

Bleedred

Member
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Feb 21, 2001
7,837
Boston, MA
Possibly, but he was/isn't a full time employee, just working game days. The initial agreement stated that Wells would only need one interview, barring unforeseen circumstances. When they came back to the Patriots to interview again, they refused to say what they wanted that would justify altering the agreement.

McNally was reluctant to take more time away from his day job to do an inperson interview (he lives in NH), especially after the ESPN Kelly Naqi story in February 2015 revealed his name and address. The NEP offered to make McNally available by phone etc, but never heard back from Wells.
Links please?
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
9,766
Regarding the data, the only actual data points that exist in this whole affair are:
1. Halftime measurements (11 Pats' balls, 4 Colts' balls)
2. Post-game measurements (4 Pats' balls, 4 Colts' balls) (p. 73 of Wells Report)

Major findings of the Wells Report:
1. Halftime measurements: Pats' balls dropped approximately 0.7 psi more than the Colts' balls
2. Post-game measurements: Data excluded from analysis (see footnote 44 on p. 73)

However, using my keen mind and an understanding of 4th grade mathematics, I was able to determine that the Pats' balls post-game had an average air pressure that was approximately 0.7 psi higher than the Colts' balls post-game.

There is only one valid interpretation of the post-game findings - the Pats' balls were measured (and reinflated to 13.0 psi) at halftime when cold. The Colts' balls were measured when warm (they were never reinflated). If both sets of balls were allowed to equilibrate to room temperature at halftime, it would have been found that both sets of balls dropped in pressure the exact same amount.

Any other interpretation for the post-game measurement differences would include things like the gauges being inaccurate, the referees being incompetent, the balls being measured at different temperatures, etc., which would undermine the entirety of Exponent's analysis.

They say you can't prove a negative, however this data seems to be very strong evidence that nothing happened.
I don't disagree with your interpretation. I just pointed out that the fact that the Patriots' footballs were measured lower than 12.5 is evidence enough for some people. See Kensil's comment to the Patriots' guy before halftime (when they got the intercepted ball and it measured lower than 12.5) that "you guys are f***ed".

Wells and the NEP had an agreement that Pats employees would be interviewed once only.
I have followed this very closely, but I never heard this piece. Do you have a link to support this claim? I thought that Jastremski and McNally were actually interviewed multiple times apiece.
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
7,837
Boston, MA
I don't disagree with your interpretation. I just pointed out that the fact that the Patriots' footballs were measured lower than 12.5 is evidence enough for some people. See Kensil's comment to the Patriots' guy before halftime (when they got the intercepted ball and it measured lower than 12.5) that "you guys are f***ed".



I have followed this very closely, but I never heard this piece. Do you have a link to support this claim? I thought that Jastremski and McNally were actually interviewed multiple times apiece.
My recollection is that Wells interviewed them only once. NFL security interviewed them 3 times.
 

Hoya81

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Feb 3, 2010
4,916
I have followed this very closely, but I never heard this piece. Do you have a link to support this claim? I thought that Jastremski and McNally were actually interviewed multiple times apiece.
http://nesn.com/2015/05/patriots-explain-why-jim-mcnally-wasnt-made-available-for-followup-interview/
I meant interviewed once by Wells and his team.

This was available on a previous version of the wellsreportincontext.com site, but the site has been updated multiple times since then.

That agreement was based on an explicit understanding reached with the Wells investigators: barring unanticipated circumstances, individuals would only be interviewed by the Wells investigators one time.
Thus, when subsequently asked for what would have been a fifth interview of Mr. McNally, Patriots counsel wanted to understand what unanticipated circumstances warranted this, including whether the interview would be limited to matters that were simply not available to the investigators during Mr. McNally’s prior interview. The Patriots advised the investigators of their reluctance to have Mr. McNally back yet again, particularly given the media harassment he and his family had suffered as a result of prior leaks of Mr. McNally’s name and hometown. The distress to him and his family caused by the ensuing media attention was described in detail to the investigators. With this background, there was a high hurdle before the Patriots would ask Mr. McNally to appear yet again for what would be his fifth interview, and a particular desire to be sure that the standard for another interview — unanticipated circumstances — was met. “While the report states that certain of Mr. Jastremski’s texts were not ‘discovered’ until after this interview (pg. 75, footnote 47), there is no question that the investigators had all such texts in their possession and available for the questioning. They apparently just overlooked them, identifying them now as a matter they wanted to cover in yet another interview. (pg. 75) Although asked numerous times for the reason for their request for yet another interview with Mr. McNally, the Wells investigators never stated the reason that now appears evident from the Report: They had overlooked texts in their earlier interviews and wanted the opportunity to ask about them. This information would have confirmed what is now clear. The request was inconsistent with the interview protocol agreed to at the outset. “Although receiving no assurances that the requested additional Mr. McNally interview would satisfy the agreed-upon interview protocol, Patriots counsel nonetheless suggested that there might be ways other than another in-person interview to get whatever further information was sought. Patriots counsel offered to be of assistance in those respects. “There was no follow-up from the investigators.