Tatum got the bag(5 years, $195 million)

lovegtm

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Sure but that's not what Mike Gorman does and his criticisms of Tatum came way before Perk's tweet. Everybody that watches the C's for any amount of time sees exactly what Gorman and Perk are talking about. Tatum has a shit attitude and plays like a guy who has one concern and that's stacking numbers. Speaking purely as a fan, I kinda can't stand watching him play hoops(this year). He has dazzling highs where the skies the limit and distressing lows where it seems like he'd rather be anywhere but on the basketball court. Unfortunately, I doubt getting called out in the media is going to do much to change the course he's on. Further, I doubt Gorman says anything unless it was a real problem internally.
This is unfair except wrt this year. Last year he played great defense and improved his playmaking drastically even through the bubble. This year has been a shitshow.

This ties back to the Brad thread: I'm fairly optimistic Tatum would turn it around if the situation were shaken up.
 

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I am fairly certain that Tatum is an immature ass who has often done things that have sunk his team. I fear he may be one of those amazing players who continues to do so regardless of teammates or coaches.

Maybe we should trade Tatum to shake things up.

So I guess we are at an impasse.
(and yeah that was mostly, hopefully tongue in cheek)

Not trying to bust your balls @lovegtm but the speculation that "Someone other then Brad" would have this team playing better is folly. Even if they do can Brad.....Next year is a totally different beast thing this year. When the Celtics are the 4th seed everyone will say "See we just needed a new Voice!" (Yup and noCovid, Kemba traded a more mature Jalen and Jason, Time lord to have 25 more starts under his belt, an entire "regular" offseason, Nesmith and Langford to be a year older etc etc etc etc)
 

lovegtm

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I am fairly certain that Tatum is an immature ass who has often done things that have sunk his team. I fear he may be one of those amazing players who continues to do so regardless of teammates or coaches.

Maybe we should trade Tatum to shake things up.

So I guess we are at an impasse.
(and yeah that was mostly, hopefully tongue in cheek)

Not trying to bust your balls @lovegtm but the speculation that "Someone other then Brad" would have this team playing better is folly. Even if they do can Brad.....Next year is a totally different beast thing this year. When the Celtics are the 4th seed everyone will say "See we just needed a new Voice!" (Yup and noCovid, Kemba traded a more mature Jalen and Jason, Time lord to have 25 more starts under his belt, an entire "regular" offseason, Nesmith and Langford to be a year older etc etc etc etc)
Interesting, so we're just going to pretend that Tatum's entire 2019-20 season didn't happen now?
 

Cellar-Door

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This is unfair except wrt this year. Last year he played great defense and improved his playmaking drastically even through the bubble. This year has been a shitshow.

This ties back to the Brad thread: I'm fairly optimistic Tatum would turn it around if the situation were shaken up.
COnsidering how the season started, I'm fairly optimistic that the coach isn't the issue, and the bigger issue is that Tatum caught a serious illness that can have significant impact on your ability to play sports at an elite level. He was fine on both ends pre-COVID. His DFG% and DIF through his last pre-COVID game were excellent, similar to Ben Simmons on both numbers.
 

bakahump

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Interesting, so we're just going to pretend that Tatum's entire 2019-20 season didn't happen now?
Well if we can ignore Stevens being an above average to very good coach for the previous 5 years, it seems reasonable.
 

lovegtm

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Well if we can ignore Stevens being an above average to very good coach for the previous 5 years, it seems reasonable.
"Tatum has always been a selfish ass" is a completely different proposition from "Brad Stevens is a very successful coach who may have been tuned out by his players, as he was in 2018-2019."
 

ManicCompression

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I wonder what we would think of Tatum's passing if he had better passing teammates. It would be nice for him to be playmaker, and he seems to be trending gradually in that direction, but the shoot-first mentality is magnified playing next to guys like Kemba and Brown (and Semi and Grant and TT and, at times, Marcus) who also don't have great vision or passing chops. That's why Time Lord has been such an add to the team - he can actually dish the ball and it doesn't stick to his hands.

Tatum's best skill - shot creation - is beneficial in late in clock/late in games situations and I think we'll see the fruits of it in the playoffs, but it's not a consistent way to generate offense during the grind of a whole game/season. Think of the best Kawhi teams - they weren't dependent upon him to do everything until it mattered the most (like game 7 versus the sixers in 2019) and while passing is a weakness for him, it's not exploitable on those teams because the ball moved around so well otherwise. Going into the season, passing was a major weakness for the team (Smart should not be our best passer) and hopefully it's something Ainge cleans up heading into next year.

Edit: Forgot to add Fournier - it seems like he'll help in this area, but we just haven't had the chance to see it much yet. A lineup of Smart-Brown-Fournier-Tatum-Time Lord might be our best from a +/- perspective for the rest of the season.
 
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bakahump

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"Tatum has always been a selfish ass" is a completely different proposition from "Brad Stevens is a very successful coach who may have been tuned out by his players, as he was in 2018-2019."
Did not say that.

Please reread my post.

And now your gonna Blame Brad for the Kyrie Shitshow? Your better then that. The fact we cam back successful in 2019-20 is a testament that he did in fact NOT lose the majority of that team.

its also a pretty good indicator that despite a tough season he can successfully come back and coach a successful team.
 

nighthob

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"Tatum has always been a selfish ass" is a completely different proposition from "Brad Stevens is a very successful coach who may have been tuned out by his players, as he was in 2018-2019."
I mean he was tuned out by the guy that was playing for the Nets. And that guy was actively doing everything in his power to torch the Boston clubhouse.

Covid Season v2.0 has sucked like a French supermodel. Worse since Tatum caught the illness and it clearly wreaked havoc with his energy levels. I'm willing to wait until '21 to get a better read on this squad.

I wonder what we would think of Tatum's passing if he had better passing teammates. It would be nice for him to be playmaker, and he seems to be trending gradually in that direction, but the shoot-first mentality is magnified playing next to guys like Kemba and Brown (and Semi and Grant and TT and, at times, Marcus) who also don't have great vision or passing chops.
Walker and Smart are actually pretty good passers. What they aren't is great pure shooters (Walker used to be better, but post-injury he no longer gets the same separation and can no longer launch as effectively in tight shooting windows), which is what depresses assist numbers. Fournier's shooting makes everyone look better. Including Williams.
 

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There are player-coach combinations that work, and those that don’t. This is true even for very good players and coaches. I don’t know anything about how Tatum and Brad relate, but the phenomenon exists. The most obvious example is Doc, who worked great early with ORL, LAC, and currently PHI, but started to falter later. His peak with Boston obviously corresponded with the big three.
 

ManicCompression

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Walker and Smart are actually pretty good passers. What they aren't is great pure shooters (Walker used to be better, but post-injury he no longer gets the same separation and can no longer launch as effectively in tight shooting windows), which is what depresses assist numbers. Fournier's shooting makes everyone look better. Including Williams.
When they actually choose to pass, yes. I accidentally conflated "skill" with "willingness" as the team could use both. Marcus can be an excellent distributor when he's not looking for his own shot. Walker, to me, less so - for a guy who's had the ball in his hands all his career, he's averaged above 6 assists/game only once and hasn't averaged above 5 with the Cs. I know there are caveats with usage and teammates, but he's not a guy who historically is looking for ways to set up teammates.
 

Cellar-Door

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There are player-coach combinations that work, and those that don’t. This is true even for very good players and coaches. I don’t know anything about how Tatum and Brad relate, but the phenomenon exists. The most obvious example is Doc, who worked great early with ORL, LAC, and currently PHI, but started to falter later. His peak with Boston obviously corresponded with the big three.
Sure, but why do we think it's more likely that the player and the coach who turned him into a star, and saw him grow immensely can no longer function together, than that the team and player are having a bad stretch in an illness and injury ravaged season.
 

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Sure, but why do we think it's more likely that the player and the coach who turned him into a star, and saw him grow immensely can no longer function together, than that the team and player are having a bad stretch in an illness and injury ravaged season.
Because "we have to do something!!!".

[/98.5]
 

Devizier

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Sure, but why do we think it's more likely that the player and the coach who turned him into a star, and saw him grow immensely can no longer function together, than that the team and player are having a bad stretch in an illness and injury ravaged season.
Yeah, I have no strong opinion one way or another. Generally speaking, when it comes to personnel issues I trust my ignorance and assume that the front office* is going to make the best choices with the information they have.

*Exceptions for Isaiah Thomas, etc.
 

lexrageorge

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Yeah, I have no strong opinion one way or another. Generally speaking, when it comes to personnel issues I trust my ignorance and assume that the front office* is going to make the best choices with the information they have.

*Exceptions for Isaiah Thomas, etc.
Wrong Isiah.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's worth nothing that 11 of those 18 became their team's leading scorer in their 1st or 2nd seasons, as they were often drafted into really bad teams (or, in Abdur-Rahim's case, an expansion team). Tatum was drafted into a team that had Kyrie, Horford, and Hayward (ooops), and so did not have a chance to become the alpha scorer until his 3rd season:

1st year: LeBron, Durant, Carmelo, Shaq, Kyrie, Abdur-Rahim

2nd year: KAT, Booker, Rose, Wiggins, Davis

3rd year: Howard, Bosh, Marbury(*), Tatum

4th: McGrady, Giannis

7th: Kobe

*: Marbury became the lead scorer for the Nets after he was traded from the Wolves mid-season.

Kobe's teammate during his early Lakers year had a lot to do with him taking 7 years to become the team's leading scorer. Some of the above players were a year younger than Tatum when they were drafted as well.
Interesting. The only players on this list who have won a championship are what I would call "physical freaks of nature" (LBJ, KD, Shaq) or who were paired with the above (Kyrie), which AD and Kobe being in either or both categories depending on you look at them.

The jury is still out on Giannis and McGrady was slowed by injuries.

And I think we can all agree that JT is not a physical freak of nature. I know we've had this discussion before multiple times and I don't mean to rehash it but it will be interesting to see if JT can be the best player on a championship team. I think the odds are against him but it would be great if he beat the odds.
 

lexrageorge

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Interesting. The only players on this list who have won a championship are what I would call "physical freaks of nature" (LBJ, KD, Shaq) or who were paired with the above (Kyrie), which AD and Kobe being in either or both categories depending on you look at them.

The jury is still out on Giannis and McGrady was slowed by injuries.

And I think we can all agree that JT is not a physical freak of nature. I know we've had this discussion before multiple times and I don't mean to rehash it but it will be interesting to see if JT can be the best player on a championship team. I think the odds are against him but it would be great if he beat the odds.
Since 2000, the best players on their respective championship teams:

Shaq (3-peat)
Duncan
Billups? Ben Wallace?
Duncan
LeBron (Wade was Finals MVP, fwiw)
Duncan (Parker was Finals MVP)
Tie between Pierce (Finals MVP) and KG
Kobe (2x)
Dirk
LeBron
Duncan, Parker and Kawhi were the teams 3 best, w/ Leonard wining Finals MVP
Steph Curry (Igoudala won Finals MVP)
LeBron
Durant (2x) or Curry
Kawhi
LeBron

The top tier in terms of athleticism from that last includes LeBron, Kawhi, Durant; Kobe was elite in his scoring ability. KG deserves an honorable mention.

Duncan, Dirk, Pierce, and Steph had (or have) elite skills, but are probably in a similar tier to Tatum athleticism wise. Billups had a great couple of years, but was never a dominant player. So it certainly is possible for Tatum to be a Finals MVP, but he does need a KG to team with.
 

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"Tatum has always been a selfish ass" is a completely different proposition from "Brad Stevens is a very successful coach who may have been tuned out by his players, as he was in 2018-2019."
I'm not hearing Tatum is a selfish ass... if anything I'm hearing "Tatum is a selfish ass this season especially in the context of him having covid/recovery issues and it not working". If it were working and the Cs were say 4-5 games better in the standings and hadn't looked like dog food against the Sixers, we'd be looking at "he's OUR selfish ass... and we love him"

I wonder what we would think of Tatum's passing if he had better passing teammates. It would be nice for him to be playmaker, and he seems to be trending gradually in that direction, but the shoot-first mentality is magnified playing next to guys like Kemba and Brown (and Semi and Grant and TT and, at times, Marcus) who also don't have great vision or passing chops. That's why Time Lord has been such an add to the team - he can actually dish the ball and it doesn't stick to his hands.

Tatum's best skill - shot creation - is beneficial in late in clock/late in games situations and I think we'll see the fruits of it in the playoffs, but it's not a consistent way to generate offense during the grind of a whole game/season. Think of the best Kawhi teams - they weren't dependent upon him to do everything until it mattered the most (like game 7 versus the sixers in 2019) and while passing is a weakness for him, it's not exploitable on those teams because the ball moved around so well otherwise. Going into the season, passing was a major weakness for the team (Smart should not be our best passer) and hopefully it's something Ainge cleans up heading into next year.

Edit: Forgot to add Fournier - it seems like he'll help in this area, but we just haven't had the chance to see it much yet. A lineup of Smart-Brown-Fournier-Tatum-Time Lord might be our best from a +/- perspective for the rest of the season.
There is a difference between being a good passer (we'd all love if he evolved to a great passer, at a minimum out of the double team), and conversely simply either a) hitting the obvious open man or b) just not seemingly freezing out players who might be taking shots he doesn't like (PP example from the game thread). He can be another notch more effective in a team context by just passing within whatever meager flow the offense does have. The act of passing sometimes is enough - because every NBA player is capable of making the 10 foot pass to a wide open PP versus choosing to sail it into the front row on a cross court pass over the entire defense. [That said, if he wants to be a top 10 guy who can carry his team to titles then he does need to learn to pass better to exploit his gravity.]

When they actually choose to pass, yes. I accidentally conflated "skill" with "willingness" as the team could use both. Marcus can be an excellent distributor when he's not looking for his own shot. Walker, to me, less so - for a guy who's had the ball in his hands all his career, he's averaged above 6 assists/game only once and hasn't averaged above 5 with the Cs. I know there are caveats with usage and teammates, but he's not a guy who historically is looking for ways to set up teammates.
Agreed with the first sentence, see above. Kemba does know how to effectively kickout when his gravity has created an opportunity for someone else. The issue to me is that given his performance/injury status his gravity has shrunk and he's not getting the same pull from the defense - so tighter windows to pass in/out of. As for being a pure distributor, even at UConn he was more known for putting the team on his back than as a distributor I think.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Tatum didn’t have faith in PP getting his shot off against the Knicks aggressive close outs. If he passes to PP the entire set is destroyed and the ball ends up back in his hands with the clock running down. He’s done the same with Semi and others yet has had no problem deferring to Jaylen and Fournier who he knows can get off or create their shot off the dribble with an up-fake.

Look at what is happening in Denver now that Jokic and Gordon have found instant trust and chemistry. Gordon has scored 31 baskets since arriving with 16 of them being assisted by Jokic, who is avg 8.7 Ast on the year but 12.3 in his last three games. Personnel matters.
 
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RetractableRoof

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Tatum didn’t have faith in PP getting his shot off against the Knicks aggressive close outs. If he passes to PP the entire set is destroyed and the ball ends up back in his hands with the clock running down. He’s done the same with Semi and others yet has had no problem deferring to Jaylen and Fournier who he knows can get off or create their shot off the dribble with an up-fake.

Look at what is happening in Denver now that Jokic and Gordon have found instant trust and chemistry. Gordon has scored 31 baskets since arriving with 16 of them being assisted by Jokic, who is avg 8.7 Ast on the year but 12.3 in his last three games. Personnel matters.
There was no one in the same zip code with PP at that moment. And even if his judgement was correct that there was a small window of success, it was larger than him sailing the throw the way he did. Tatum has a pattern with PP. It's there.

Even if Tatum were Jordan himself (and he isn't even close), Jordan won nothing until he learned to trust (and build up) his teammates. You go back to the guy who dropped the pass. You feed the guy that hustled up court. You know this stuff. Tatum cannot win it on his own. If those around him are not good enough to win it this year, then he has to be part of building them up so they can win it in the future. Because his game isn't good enough to win it solo (and certainly not if he is still compromised due to covid).
 

Cesar Crespo

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There was no one in the same zip code with PP at that moment. And even if his judgement was correct that there was a small window of success, it was larger than him sailing the throw the way he did. Tatum has a pattern with PP. It's there.

Even if Tatum were Jordan himself (and he isn't even close), Jordan won nothing until he learned to trust (and build up) his teammates. You go back to the guy who dropped the pass. You feed the guy that hustled up court. You know this stuff. Tatum cannot win it on his own. If those around him are not good enough to win it this year, then he has to be part of building them up so they can win it in the future. Because his game isn't good enough to win it solo (and certainly not if he is still compromised due to covid).
Jordan also didn't win until Doug Collins was replaced with Phil Jackson.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Tatum didn’t have faith in PP getting his shot off against the Knicks aggressive close outs. If he passes to PP the entire set is destroyed and the ball ends up back in his hands with the clock running down. He’s done the same with Semi and others yet has had no problem deferring to Jaylen and Fournier who he knows can get off or create their shot off the dribble with an up-fake.

Look at what is happening in Denver now that Jokic and Gordon have found instant trust and chemistry. Gordon has scored 31 baskets since arriving with 16 of them being assisted by Jokic, who is avg 8.7 Ast on the year but 12.3 in his last three games. Personnel matters.
Below is the frequency with which Tatum passes to individual teammates this season. My sense is that Tatum wouldn't pass to Kemba, Brown or Smart, Fournier, Pritchard or even Bradley Beal if he thought it was a bad decision.

If your point is roster construction is a huge factor for this and every NBA team, you'll get no argument there. But I am not sure your point about PP holds from a larger perspective. Tatum appears to trust him pretty well for a rookie in general.

40096
 

RetractableRoof

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Below is the frequency with which Tatum passes to individual teammates this season. My sense is that Tatum wouldn't pass to Kemba, Brown or Smart, Fournier, Pritchard or even Bradley Beal if he thought it was a bad decision.

If your point is roster construction is a huge factor for this and every NBA team, you'll get no argument there. But I am not sure your point about PP holds from a larger perspective. Tatum appears to trust him pretty well for a rookie in general.

View attachment 40096
I love the graph, but as noted by previous posters, how many of those times to PP were accompanied by "right back!" ? Is there a way to find out how many of those passes were to a player who then scored (I don't care if an assist was credited). There is passing to probe and find an advantage, and passing to mark time.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I love the graph, but as noted by previous posters, how many of those times to PP were accompanied by "right back!" ? Is there a way to find out how many of those passes were to a player who then scored (I don't care if an assist was credited). There is passing to probe and find an advantage, and passing to mark time.
I have no interest in joining a debate that is using discrete plays and extrapolating trends from them.

The data is what it is - if the argument is that Tatum won't make passes to teammates who are covered or are in a bad position, it should end there imo because that is the best outcome. But its then being used to illustrate that he doesn't trust certain teammates as much as others. While this is highly probable, the counting stats from this year suggest that if Pritchard isn't in the circle of trust, he is standing right outside, dribbling furiously.
 

lexrageorge

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Tatum missing Pritchard on a particular play could be the result of 10 other things than Tatum deliberately freezing him out.

I think the part that is difficult for a guy like Tatum is figuring out when to pass, when to shoot, and when to dribble the ball into the ice surface. The rotating cast of characters (and clowns) around him make that task even more difficult. He's been told from the ownership on down that he has the tools to be the team's alpha, and so needs to play like that. So it's not surprising that there will be times when he doesn't pass the ball to Pritchard. Who knows, maybe he didn't see PP on the play in question, or simply misjudged how open he was.

He's still 3rd on the team in assists per game and first overall. He's being asked to do a ton without a ton of help.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Even if Tatum were Jordan himself (and he isn't even close), Jordan won nothing until he learned to trust (and build up) his teammates. You go back to the guy who dropped the pass. You feed the guy that hustled up court. You know this stuff. Tatum cannot win it on his own. If those around him are not good enough to win it this year, then he has to be part of building them up so they can win it in the future. Because his game isn't good enough to win it solo (and certainly not if he is still compromised due to covid).
It's not just Jordan.

Our own Tom Brady did the exact same thing. If a receiver dropped a pass, we used to joke how he'd be going back to him usually on the next play, or within the next few. It's something he's done almost his entire career, and he did it quite a bit last year with Godwin in Tampa Bay.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I have no interest in joining a debate that is using discrete plays and extrapolating trends from them.

The data is what it is - if the argument is that Tatum won't make passes to teammates who are covered or are in a bad position, it should end there imo because that is the best outcome. But its then being used to illustrate that he doesn't trust certain teammates as much as others. While this is highly probable, the counting stats from this year suggest that if Pritchard isn't in the circle of trust, he is standing right outside, dribbling furiously.
The data is shit though. When PP is in the game, usually Tatum is bringing the ball up the court. When he brings the ball up the court, sometimes the only guy within 15 feet of him (other than whatever big is setting the PnR) is PP, while the other 2 guys stand in the corner. If he's doubled, he goes to PP, if he's looking to create space, he'll throw it to PP, and then run to him for a dribble/handoff.

When he's playing the point, as he does a lot when PP is in the game, or when Kemba is not playing, the number of guys who he can pass to in the C's offense is limited, and will skew the numbers.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I love the graph, but as noted by previous posters, how many of those times to PP were accompanied by "right back!" ? Is there a way to find out how many of those passes were to a player who then scored (I don't care if an assist was credited). There is passing to probe and find an advantage, and passing to mark time.
You can look it up on NBA.com. NBA.com/Stats | Payton Pritchard

PP has more FGA from passes from JT than anyone else on the team.

40097
 

Cesar Crespo

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Is there a way to look at which teammates Tatum has passed the most to that ended in a FGA?

It shows 44% of Tatum's passes to PP ended up in a basket. I'm curious if Tatum actually is more likely to pass to players who have been converting on more of his passes.
 

Strike4

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Is there a way to look at which teammates Tatum has passed the most to that ended in a FGA?

It shows 44% of Tatum's passes to PP ended up in a basket. I'm curious if Tatum actually is more likely to pass to players who have been converting on more of his passes.
Haha, like when you show up new to a pickup game and a guy passes to you and you brick your first shot he doesn't pass to you again for three weeks? I actually think about how prominent this is in the NBA or if it's coached out.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Is there a way to look at which teammates Tatum has passed the most to that ended in a FGA?

It shows 44% of Tatum's passes to PP ended up in a basket. I'm curious if Tatum actually is more likely to pass to players who have been converting on more of his passes.
Yes, NBA.com has both passes to and passes from. Here's JT's passes to, sorted by FGA:

40103
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Yeah but that data ignores all the stuff we see on our screens...

Sometimes our eyes fool us or our internal biases cause us to see things that may not be there.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Those conversion rates look awful. I have no clue if they actually are. That's not on Tatum though, obviously.
 

slamminsammya

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Yeah but that data ignores all the stuff we see on our screens...

Sometimes our eyes fool us or our internal biases cause us to see things that may not be there.
Of course the right data beats our eyes every day. But a table of passing percentages is not even close to the right data for a million reasons. GIGO principle applies for that analysis.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Of course the right data beats our eyes every day. But a table of passing percentages is not even close to the right data for a million reasons. GIGO principle applies for that analysis.
Doesn't help it's raw data so Evan Fournier is down the list at 0.7% because he's only played 4 games.

In the early going, it looks like he has a thing for Kornet but I'm sure it's just sample size.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Of course the right data beats our eyes every day. But a table of passing percentages is not even close to the right data for a million reasons. GIGO principle applies for that analysis.
Agreed. The data does throw cold water on the idea that Tatum doesn't pass to certain teammates (for whatever reason). That was the only point. Beyond that, its impossible to know what Tatum's decision making process is in terms of distribution each time down the court. Maybe he doesn't trust a teammate or maybe its something else. It seems folly for people here to assume they have some insight but that's what "we" do here.
 

slamminsammya

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Agreed. The data does throw cold water on the idea that Tatum doesn't pass to certain teammates (for whatever reason). That was the only point. Beyond that, its impossible to know what Tatum's decision making process is in terms of distribution each time down the court. Maybe he doesn't trust a teammate or maybe its something else. It seems folly for people here to assume they have some insight but that's what "we" do here.
I don't think it does throw cold water on that theory? When people are talking about not passing to someone they are really talking about passes in very specific contexts. Drive and kick, making a pass out of a double team, passes that unlock some advantage. The decisive pass. Not dribble handoffs that start a possession or simple passes that are just setting up an initial action. At least that is how I interpret it. Those numbers are totally consistent with the theory that Tatum doesn't trust Pritchard and won't pass to him, for example, out of a double team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Haha, like when you show up new to a pickup game and a guy passes to you and you brick your first shot he doesn't pass to you again for three weeks? I actually think about how prominent this is in the NBA or if it's coached out.
I can’t imagine any coach outside of middle school telling his players who to pass the ball to outside of a specifically designed play. Basketball, the higher the level you play, is more and more instinctual and based off reads from the defense.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don't think it does throw cold water on that theory? When people are talking about not passing to someone they are really talking about passes in very specific contexts. Drive and kick, making a pass out of a double team, passes that unlock some advantage. The decisive pass. Not dribble handoffs that start a possession or simple passes that are just setting up an initial action. At least that is how I interpret it. Those numbers are totally consistent with the theory that Tatum doesn't trust Pritchard and won't pass to him, for example, out of a double team.
Huh? Am I misunderstanding you? The data shows that JT passes to PP about twice as much as anyone else and that more of PP's shots are generated by passes from JT than any other player, and except for GW, more than twice as many shots.

If JT doesn't pass to PP, what do we make of KW who hardly ever passes to PP and those passes leads to hardly any shots?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don't think it does throw cold water on that theory? When people are talking about not passing to someone they are really talking about passes in very specific contexts. Drive and kick, making a pass out of a double team, passes that unlock some advantage. The decisive pass. Not dribble handoffs that start a possession or simple passes that are just setting up an initial action. At least that is how I interpret it. Those numbers are totally consistent with the theory that Tatum doesn't trust Pritchard and won't pass to him, for example, out of a double team.
Does it? I don't know one way or the other. I would have to dig in further but that isn't how the discussion started.

Once again, we are down the rabbit hole where some people here are trying to put themselves inside of Jayson Tatum's thinking on an NBA court. While I agree that he can improve as a distributor, he simply isn't the "ball stopper" or as afraid to pass to certain teammates as some here are suggesting. Beyond that, we are getting into pure assumption/speculation territory.
 

lexrageorge

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The data is shit though. When PP is in the game, usually Tatum is bringing the ball up the court. When he brings the ball up the court, sometimes the only guy within 15 feet of him (other than whatever big is setting the PnR) is PP, while the other 2 guys stand in the corner. If he's doubled, he goes to PP, if he's looking to create space, he'll throw it to PP, and then run to him for a dribble/handoff.

When he's playing the point, as he does a lot when PP is in the game, or when Kemba is not playing, the number of guys who he can pass to in the C's offense is limited, and will skew the numbers.
That doesn't seem like Tatum is "freezing out" Pritchard. Both the description above and the data indicate that the opposite is happening. Sometimes the eye test, which is basically drawing conclusions from a broadcast feed, is wrong.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Yeah but that data ignores all the stuff we see on our screens...

Sometimes our eyes fool us or our internal biases cause us to see things that may not be there.
So the argument is that counting stats are important around here now? Because IMO, counting stats when it comes to total number of passes or passes that lead to field goals/attempts are just that.

If PP plays 80% of his minutes on the floor with Jayson Tatum, and 90% of the time, those guys are the only two located somewhere other than the corner sucking their thumb, their counting stats are going to be higher. If we're using these stats as a way to determine who players are willing to pass to in specific circumstances, we should assume Kemba hates PP. Because he barely passes to him. Of course, that would ignore the fact that Kemba and PP are rarely on the floor at the same time.
 

slamminsammya

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Does it? I don't know one way or the other. I would have to dig in further but that isn't how the discussion started.

Once again, we are down the rabbit hole where some people here are trying to put themselves inside of Jayson Tatum's thinking on an NBA court. While I agree that he can improve as a distributor, he simply isn't the "ball stopper" or as afraid to pass to certain teammates as some here are suggesting. Beyond that, we are getting into pure assumption/speculation territory.
Going off of what we see in the games isn't purely speculation. Its imperfect sure. If a guy doesn't trust a teammate no one is suggesting they will never pass to them. It would show up on the margins as missed opportunities here and there which is what people see, myself included. Yes, we are speculating as to his mental state.

I work with and rely on data and metrics every day in my job so I am not some anti-data trust your eyeballs Joe Morgan follower stats are bad person, for context.

The first generation of basketball statistics conflicted with traditional wisdom in some big ways. Some of those turned out to be correct (3 pointers are great!) and a lot of them turned out to be very wrong (guys who get offensive rebounds are teh best ever). I think there is still a lot of space for trusting your eyes in basketball.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Going off of what we see in the games isn't purely speculation. Its imperfect sure. If a guy doesn't trust a teammate no one is suggesting they will never pass to them. It would show up on the margins as missed opportunities here and there which is what people see, myself included. Yes, we are speculating as to his mental state.

I work with and rely on data and metrics every day in my job so I am not some anti-data trust your eyeballs Joe Morgan follower stats are bad person, for context.

The first generation of basketball statistics conflicted with traditional wisdom in some big ways. Some of those turned out to be correct (3 pointers are great!) and a lot of them turned out to be very wrong (guys who get offensive rebounds are teh best ever). I think there is still a lot of space for trusting your eyes in basketball.
I am a fan of your posts so no need to explain your approach to me. Your view carries more weight precisely because of that. And to be clear, we aren't disagreeing as much as I am saying I require more information to arrive the same conclusion.

Beyond that, its kind of elemental that trust in teammates is an essential aspect of ball movement. Where Pritchard or anyone falls on Tatum's scale of trust is beyond my grasp so I am incapable of debating it. I do strongly doubt that its static but beyond that, I'd be loathe to characterize it. And I watch the games too, even if they are often painful.
 

slamminsammya

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I am a fan of your posts so no need to explain your approach to me. Your view carries more weight precisely because of that. And to be clear, we aren't disagreeing as much as I am saying I require more information to arrive the same conclusion.

Beyond that, its kind of elemental that trust in teammates is an essential aspect of ball movement. Where Pritchard or anyone falls on Tatum's scale of trust is beyond my grasp so I am incapable of debating it. I do strongly doubt that its static but beyond that, I'd be loathe to characterize it. And I watch the games too, even if they are often painful.
Its mutual. I recognize we are guessing whats in his mind, and I also realize that there is likely plenty of projection of our own frustrations regarding this team onto what we think is happening in the players' heads, but also its a message board where else can I make such fun speculations? I am starved for gossip this past year!

That said, we hear plenty of retired players talk about the impact of trusting your teammates. The documentary on the Bulls had heaps of MJ talking about his mindset during the 80's Bulls years. I don't think its crazy to think Tatum sees himself as a star, sees (rightly) a lot of his teammates as scrubs, and alters his play because of it.
 

RorschachsMask

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People want to say he holds onto the ball too long? Sure, I agree. Does he get tunnel vision at times? Absolutely, although he’s not even the biggest offender of that on the team. He has the highest pass % on the team at 15.2%, Kemba is 10.8%, Smart is 10.5, Jaylen is 9.8. You want to dig into how many of those are passes and then it gets passed right back? Go ahead, but it’s true for almost any top player.

Tatum makes 19 more passes per game than Jaylen, he has the 3rd highest assist rate on the team, b-ball index has him as the 9th best playmaking forward in the league this season. Of players with a usage of 30% or higher, only Kyrie has a lower turnover rate, so Tatum clearly plays pretty under control.

Many people have their opinions of Tatum and his style of play, so they tend to remember the bad with him and blast him for it more than they would with other players on the team. Even in a “down” year, he’s been pretty clearly the best player on the team, while being a year and a half younger than the next best player. People just have unfair expectations for a guy who just turned 23.
 

slamminsammya

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People want to say he holds onto the ball too long? Sure, I agree. Does he get tunnel vision at times? Absolutely, although he’s not even the biggest offender of that on the team. He has the highest pass % on the team at 15.2%, Kemba is 10.8%, Smart is 10.5, Jaylen is 9.8.

Tatum makes 19 more passes per game than Jaylen, he has the 3rd highest assist rate on the team, b-ball index has him as the 9th best playmaking forward in the league this season. Of players with a usage of 30% or higher, only Kyrie has a lower turnover rate, so Tatum clearly plays pretty under control.

Many people have their opinions of Tatum and his style of play, so they tend to remember the bad with him and blast him for it more than they would with other players on the team. Even in a “down” year, he’s been pretty clearly the best player on the team, while being a year and a half younger than the next best player. People just have unfair expectations for a guy who just turned 23.
What is pass %?

I think a lot of the frustration gets concentrated on Tatum because he is the best player on the team. The offense gets most of the discussion around here which is also funny because the offense is actually not that bad. He definitely creates for others a lot of the times. I think people react strongly to how many wasted possessions he creates when he gets locked onto the idea of taking a shot. He will clean those up as he matures but its still frustrating to watch.
 

RorschachsMask

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What is pass %?

I think a lot of the frustration gets concentrated on Tatum because he is the best player on the team. The offense gets most of the discussion around here which is also funny because the offense is actually not that bad. He definitely creates for others a lot of the times. I think people react strongly to how many wasted possessions he creates when he gets locked onto the idea of taking a shot. He will clean those up as he matures but its still frustrating to watch.
He is absolutely frustrating to watch at times, I wish he’d make quicker decisions and change his shot profile some. But like.....it’s part of the deal lol, only a handful of guys in nba history have led their team to titles or even the finals at Tatum’s age.

He’s one of 6 guys in the league averaging 25/7/4, his efficiency has been climbing by the week, he takes care of the ball at an elite level (last night notwithstanding lol). Of course I wish he’d do things differently and wish he’d get that it would only make it easier on himself, but it takes a long time for players to figure it out, especially when other defenses entire defensive schemes are built to slow him down.

I meant to say pass frequency %, but it’s right here.

https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612738/passes-dash/