Super Bowl LV: Game Thread – Kansas City Chiefs @ Tompa Bay Bucs

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
11,497
Still should have been a TD.
I thought it was a terrific defensive play by KC. You don't expect your offensive lineman to hold onto the ball when a defender is playing it like that. You hope to get him wide open. He was pretty open, and Brady put it right where it needed to be, and he caught it, but then the defender made a really nice play. Everyone did their job on that play; the defense just made the best play there. I don't think it "should" have been a TD. "Could" have been, for sure. "Should" have been? If that's Gronk, maybe. Not for an O-lineman though.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
28,296
Hilariously... Madden was pretty much dead on, but actually had Mahomes doing better.

View attachment 38568

Things that the Madden sim got right:

1) Bucs d-line would totally harass Mahomes.
2) Hill would barely touch the ball.
3) Brady would have all day to throw.
4) Gronk would catch a lot of passes.
5) Not many passes to Godwin, and Miller would be on the bench.
6) Bucs would get good yardage on the ground.

Things that the Madden sim got wrong:

1) Bucs would try a fake punt (unsuccessful).
2) Chiefs would score a touchdown.
3) Game would have almost no penalties.
and ???
 

SMU_Sox

loves his fluffykins
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
6,832
Dallas
Who is saying Brady would have put up more points? It's just that if he had the exact game Mahomes had yesterday nobody would be talking about how amazing he looked throwing incompletions. It wasn't a heroic performance, he got ran. It happens to everybody, let's just call it what it was. The kid battled, but that was a bad game.
You realize I wasn't just responding to you right? I don't think that you do. You asked who is saying Brady would have put up more points and it is the guy one post above yours. Do you have people on block - in particular Erik Hanson's Hook?

I've seen your work on this and other sites, and respect you immensely. But I feel if Brady had KC's o-line tonight, he would have thrown 30 check downs/hot reads and lost by merely a touchdown. We've seen it before. In The Game That Shall Not Be Mentioned. Or the 2015 AFC Championship Brian Stork Head Bob Game. Don't tell me any QB was under more pressure than Brady was in those two. And he kept it close, without the scrambling ability of Mahomes, who got swallowed up tonight.
If you want to say I was being hyperbolic, fine, two people can watch the same game and come away with different takes. I do tend to have a little bit of a flair for the dramatic so if you want to dock me points for that... ok cool, I get it. I can be a little over the top.

Running around like a chicken with its head cut off before heaving the ball 40 yards downfield isn't the only definition of "playmaking".
Now it is my turn to ask you, who is saying that? And... dare I ask... is this a little hyperbolic? I say with no malice and all kidding, this is just sports :)

If I had turned down my antics a bit and instead of saying he was Superman said this would that have been ok? I bolded the part I found particularly inspiring and great post BTW:

Late in the game this definitely reminded me of the 2015 AFC title championship. Brady was unreal in defeat that day, but he had Gronk at the height of his powers (8 catches for 144 yards). Mahomes had no such help. Either his receivers weren't getting open, or the ball was literally bouncing off of their faces. Mahomes made the same bad scrambling decisions that many mobile QBs do (holding the ball and running backwards instead of stepping up into the pocket and getting rid of the ball quickly when edge rushers get pressure), but man, his receivers were useless. Everybody will talk forever about the Bucs' weapons, but the two best receivers on the field play for KC. It may be damning with faint praise, but Mahomes was by far KC's best offensive player today. Kelce's numbers look fine (10 catches for 133 yards) but more than half of that came in the 4th quarter when the game was essentially over. Ditto Hill, who was sitting on 2 catches for 13 yards until the closing seconds of the third quarter.
 
Last edited:

SMU_Sox

loves his fluffykins
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
6,832
Dallas
In general I want to respond to @rodderick question about playmaking though.

There are QBs who can create under pressure like Mahomes, Rodgers, Russ, and... Brady. All of these QBs have little intricacies in how they do it. Mahomes we all know is a scrambler and an elusive son of a gun. Brady, again we all know, creates under pressure by having the best pocket presence and knowledge of where his receivers are in their routes in the game. He is Gretzky in that anticipation and field vision of his guys. Belichick talks about decision making and accuracy as key QB traits he desires and Brady has them in spades. His decision making under pressure is some of the best we have ever seen. That isn't hyperbolic, look how good Brady has been against the blitz. Some of that is baked into NE's offensive scheme. But scheming is one thing and executing a checkdown with an edge defender screaming past your ear or a with a DT in your grill is another.

So while I do think that we should give credit to the super obvious creators under pressure like Mahomes and Steve Young and Elway before him we should also give credit to the guys who can do it in the pocket like Brady. There is more than one way to solve a problem. As long as a QB has an answer and a way to handle when he is under pressure that is good enough for me and whether it be sliding up in the pocket to avoid pressure or rolling out and launching one both to me are playmaking.
 

canderson

Mr. Brightside
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
27,980
Harrisburg, Pa.
I don't watch the NFL but just read no player from Alabama or Ohio State was on the active roster of either team. Is that true? That's unfathomable, just out of a statistical point of view.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
37,816
I don't watch the NFL but just read no player from Alabama or Ohio State was on the active roster of either team. Is that true? That's unfathomable, just out of a statistical point of view.
Yup. OJ Howard is a Bama guy but was injured. Pretty remarkable.
 

brandonchristensen

mad photochops
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2012
27,344
Things that the Madden sim got right:

1) Bucs d-line would totally harass Mahomes.
2) Hill would barely touch the ball.
3) Brady would have all day to throw.
4) Gronk would catch a lot of passes.
5) Not many passes to Godwin, and Miller would be on the bench.
6) Bucs would get good yardage on the ground.

Things that the Madden sim got wrong:

1) Bucs would try a fake punt (unsuccessful).
2) Chiefs would score a touchdown.
3) Game would have almost no penalties.
and ???
It seemed so far fetched.
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
10,041
Not a huge surprise, but I'd imagine that this year's number is inflated over what it would have been because more people stayed home due to COVID (and the snowstorm). Or does Nielsen have a way of compensating for that?
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
28,296
Not a huge surprise, but I'd imagine that this year's number is inflated over what it would have been because more people stayed home due to COVID (and the snowstorm). Or does Nielsen have a way of compensating for that?
Given COVID restrictions, you had fewer people clumping into large parties, so more actual households had the game on.
 

heavyde050

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,722
San Francisco
I thought it was a terrific defensive play by KC. You don't expect your offensive lineman to hold onto the ball when a defender is playing it like that. You hope to get him wide open. He was pretty open, and Brady put it right where it needed to be, and he caught it, but then the defender made a really nice play. Everyone did their job on that play; the defense just made the best play there. I don't think it "should" have been a TD. "Could" have been, for sure. "Should" have been? If that's Gronk, maybe. Not for an O-lineman though.
Fair enough.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
67,832
Oregon
NFLN: Mahomes "ran" (on running plays and scrambles) for 497 yards last night (GPS in his shoulder pads)
 

Euclis20

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,847
Imaginationland
NFLN: Mahomes "ran" (on running plays and scrambles) for 497 yards last night (GPS in his shoulder pads)
Some context: I believe that's the most yards run by a QB in any game over the last 5 years, when they first started tracking this sort of thing.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
67,832
Oregon

pvg44

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
572
story on it

This is the graphic that got me. Distance traveled by each QB on each throw out of the shotgun. Guess which one is Mahomes.
38581
 

Cotillion

lurker
Jun 11, 2019
734
This is the graphic that got me. Distance traveled by each QB on each throw out of the shotgun. Guess which one is Mahomes.
View attachment 38581
I am assuing the snap is at the top of the chart. Really needs a scale on it to show some of those 20 yarders he took running back from the snap when he was running for his life sometimes.
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
10,041
Given COVID restrictions, you had fewer people clumping into large parties, so more actual households had the game on.
Right, my stated assumption was that the viewership number was skewed higher because people the lockdown forced people to watch the game alone or in small groups. But I was also wondering whether Nielsen's algorithm for calculating "viewership" somehow took this into account. (If so, it'd suggest my assumption is a wrong one.)

You know, maybe for past SBs, they somehow determined that "One TV equals X viewers", and this year they had to revise it to "One TV equals 0.2X viewers" or whatever.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
37,816
What kind of contract is Devin White getting in a couple years? In his Age 22 season (year #2), he played 15 regular season games and had the following:

140 tackles
9.0 sacks
15 TFL
16 QB hits
1 FF
1 FR

The guy is basically a faster Luke Kuechly with better pass rushing skills. What an amazing player.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
14,176
I don't watch the NFL but just read no player from Alabama or Ohio State was on the active roster of either team. Is that true? That's unfathomable, just out of a statistical point of view.
Yeah it was a big LSU game; 6 guys including Fournette, White, Mathieu, CEH and Darrel Williams.

Mahomes is getting off the hook on Monday from what I've seen/heard/read. I'm not blaming him for the loss, but it wasn't some sort of amazing performance. I get that he bought a lot of time with his legs running away from defenders, but I'm certain that Wilson, Murray, Jackson, Allen, Watson and a few other QBs could also run away from the line of scrimmage and throw incomplete passes as well.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
28,296
Yeah it was a big LSU game; 6 guys including Fournette, White, Mathieu, CEH and Darrel Williams.

Mahomes is getting off the hook on Monday from what I've seen/heard/read. I'm not blaming him for the loss, but it wasn't some sort of amazing performance. I get that he bought a lot of time with his legs running away from defenders, but I'm certain that Wilson, Murray, Jackson, Allen, Watson and a few other QBs could also run away from the line of scrimmage and throw incomplete passes as well.
Some QBs step up in the pocket and get the ball out quickly on at least some of the pass plays.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
14,176
Some QBs step up in the pocket and get the ball out quickly on at least some of the pass plays.
I agree, and as I wrote last night, I thought Mahomes got greedy in the second half trying to go for the long bomb that never materialized instead of making quick, easy throws or taking what the defense gave him. In the first half he took advantage of Tampa letting him pick up 8-10 yards with his legs, but he abandoned that in the second half, instead doubling back around the field and trying to uncork some desperation heave. Mahomes had a very physically impressive game, but he also pretty much sucked, and he is getting let off pretty easy, imo.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
14,176
This is functionally the same as Dan Savage’s advice on how to do dirty talk: tell them what you’re going to do to them, do it, tell them what you just did to them
This is also known as the Larry Bird method.


Xavier McDaniel’s fiery run-in with Michael Jordan was well documented, but the X-man had a particularly memorable one with Bird too. And it didn’t end well for him. “I’m going to get the ball right here and I am going to shoot it right in your face,” Bird told him. He then received the ball, found the spot he’d pointed out, and hit the shot. “I didn’t mean to leave two seconds on the clock,” Bird told McDaniel on the way back down the floor.
One night in Dallas, Bird told the Mavericks bench exactly how he was going to score on the next play. “So you got that?” Bird said. “I’m gonna stand right here. I’m not going to move. They’ll pass me the ball, and the next sound you hear will be the ball hitting the bottom of the net.” The next time down the floor, Bird was true to his word, and winked at the Dallas bench afterwards for good measure.
 

8slim

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
16,317
Unreal America
Right, my stated assumption was that the viewership number was skewed higher because people the lockdown forced people to watch the game alone or in small groups. But I was also wondering whether Nielsen's algorithm for calculating "viewership" somehow took this into account. (If so, it'd suggest my assumption is a wrong one.)

You know, maybe for past SBs, they somehow determined that "One TV equals X viewers", and this year they had to revise it to "One TV equals 0.2X viewers" or whatever.
First, Nielsen's methodology measures people viewing, not just TV sets. So they don't need to make the kind of adjustment you mentioned.

Second, Nielsen has long measured 'group viewing' in homes, so they can account historically for in-home Super Bowl parties. Nielsen also now measures "out of home" viewing in bars, etc., but that is much more recent development, and wouldn't be captured in ratings from prior Super Bowls.

So if ratings in the Boston market are higher for last night's game than prior Pats game, the reason is almost certainly because there were many more people watching in their homes than in past years.
 

Lowrielicious

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 19, 2011
4,004
It's still Gretzky in my book. His statistical dominance over his peers is just completely absurd. Brady has an argument because he likely will end his career leading every winning and statistical category in both the regular season and playoffs, by throughout his career there were other HOF QBs who put up similar numbers and performed at his level with some consistency. Gretzky lapped the field.
Don Bradman (cricket) is up there for lapping the field also.



Imaged linked to statistical article comparing numbers to other big name athletes, although gretzky not included unfortunately.
 

EnochRoot

lurker
Feb 7, 2020
90
Baltimore, MD
I graduated USF in Tampa back in '94, and I became a Bucs fan while at college when they were still in their Bucco-Bruce creamsicle uniforms. And I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread.

This is something.

We have threads about our TB allegiance.

But unless Tom plays till 55 and wins another 6 SB in TB he is going into the HoF as a Patriot
Tom Brady is going into the HOF as a Patriot. Before Brady, the Pats had to hoodwink Massachusetts into stadium upgrades by threatening to move the team from Foxboro to freakin Hartford of all places. Before Brady, mostly the townies loved the Pats. Now all of New England loves them.

Sorry for the term, 'townies', btw.

Unbelievable TB only has 2 sacks tonight
I saw a stat where the Bucs created pressure a SB record 29 times last night. Only 2 of those 29 pressures did they send anybody beyond their front four.

Shaq Barrett would be a good call ... or White
I can't complain about Brady winning the MVP, I mean, after I collected my eyes after they rolled out of my skull. This was as dominating of a defensive performance since the 2000 Ravens. The '85 Bears (sorry), etc.

If it were to be one defensive player? Barrett is a good call. White too, but what about David? He owned Kelce all damn game until they went into the prevent for the 4Q, where Kelce padded his stats.

What a stupid penalty on Winfield. Though, as always, fuck Tyreek Hill
There's history here. Hill blew up the Bucs secondary last November. And he'd do these incessant backflips during that career day he had.


all I can say watching Tampa tonight is... how did New Orleans win the division?
A few things come to mind. No pre-season, and they opened vs NO, Sean Payton is a really good HC, and the Bucs lost Vita Vea to a broken foot during the Wk5 game vs the Bears. They didn't get him back until the Packers game in the NFCCG.

I mean, I love me the Bucs' edge rushers. JPP and Barrett are as good as they get. But the edge rush doesn't work as well unless you have guys like Vea and Suh commandeering the interior linemen.



Oh yeah....the Bucs did lose to the Chiefs in Wk 12 (Vea was out), 27-24. After the 1Q, the Chiefs led 17-0. Since that quarter ended, the Bucs have outscored the Chiefs 55-19.

And even more useless: Patrick Mahomes dad is 8 days younger than I am. o_O
 
Last edited:

mwonow

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 4, 2005
5,863
It's still Gretzky in my book. His statistical dominance over his peers is just completely absurd. Brady has an argument because he likely will end his career leading every winning and statistical category in both the regular season and playoffs, by throughout his career there were other HOF QBs who put up similar numbers and performed at his level with some consistency. Gretzky lapped the field.
Sorry to add to the sidetrack, but - as amazing as Gretz was, Ruth was as ridiculous. Ruth's career overlapped Frank "Home Run" Baker, who is in the HoF. He led the league in HRs 4 times, with 11, 10, 12 and 9. Ruth led the league in HRs 12 times - once with 11, and then with 29, 54, 59 (those four seasons were consecutive) and then 8 more times with 41-60. And, as was noted up thread, he was also a dominant pitchers...kind of the equivalent of what it would have looked like if Gretz had taken over for Grant Fuhr when the Oilers really needed a playoff shutout.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
11,497
Mahomes was running for his life all game for sure. I have been, for pure entertainment purposes, reading chiefs planet and they are saying things like, "If Brady faced that kind of pressure, he'd have been taken to the hospital". It's like...hmmmm....I understand it, but they don't seem to recall the 2015 AFC Championship game (technically played in 2016) between NE and Denver, where Brady got lit up all game long, and, in the most hostile environment, still managed to drive his team for the near-tying score at the very end.

Brady is one tough mother, and it bugs me when people assume/believe otherwise. He's taken some hellacious beatings and gotten up for more.
 

DourDoerr

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 15, 2004
2,276
Berkeley, CA

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
37,816
Mahomes was running for his life all game for sure. I have been, for pure entertainment purposes, reading chiefs planet and they are saying things like, "If Brady faced that kind of pressure, he'd have been taken to the hospital". It's like...hmmmm....I understand it, but they don't seem to recall the 2015 AFC Championship game (technically played in 2016) between NE and Denver, where Brady got lit up all game long, and, in the most hostile environment, still managed to drive his team for the near-tying score at the very end.

Brady is one tough mother, and it bugs me when people assume/believe otherwise. He's taken some hellacious beatings and gotten up for more.
To this day, that Nate Clements de-cleating in Buffalo was one of the most vicious hits I've ever seen (close 2nd is Matt Ryan against Clemson in 2006) and Brady got right up. The only time Brady didn't get up was when his knee was shredded (F*ck you, Bernard Pollard). It's too bad that some people can't appreciate just how tough he is. Some fans think he's basically a pretty boy soccer flopper out there and, while he has certainly tried to sell calls before, when someone connects...he gets up.
 

Red Leader

lurker
Aug 2, 2009
15
You can see why Brady wanted AB so badly. That route was like a mirror image to the routes run by Edelman and Amendola. Just a couple of violent cuts. It's funny to see the Bucs lineman nervously following Brady as he's about to dig into Mathieu the second time.

And second the notion on White. I love that guy.
The bolded made me chuckle given these comments from the Bucs QB coach. Brown was supposed to run the exact same route as Edelman from SB49 but ran it backwards, and Brady still hit him.

"A.B. on his touchdown catch was supposed to go down and in and then pop back out. He goes out and pops back in,” Christensen said in an interview with former NFL punter Pat McAfee on YouTube and Sirius XM. “I’m kind of going through the headset like ‘did he run the right route? Did he just do opposite of what he was supposed to do and we hit it for a touchdown?’ That was the case.”
 

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
4,792
Mahomes was running for his life all game for sure. I have been, for pure entertainment purposes, reading chiefs planet and they are saying things like, "If Brady faced that kind of pressure, he'd have been taken to the hospital". It's like...hmmmm....I understand it, but they don't seem to recall the 2015 AFC Championship game (technically played in 2016) between NE and Denver, where Brady got lit up all game long, and, in the most hostile environment, still managed to drive his team for the near-tying score at the very end.

Brady is one tough mother, and it bugs me when people assume/believe otherwise. He's taken some hellacious beatings and gotten up for more.
Well, sure, because Denver only scored 20 points in that game, so the Pats were still in a position to tie late. Mahomes had no such opportunity. The fourth quarter might have played out very differently if the score was 20-9 instead of 31-9.