Stop hoarding TP(E) - the what should the Celtics do with the TPE thread

[dano7594]

I have not seen this mentioned, but I found this line intriguing concerning Collins. I had to read it multiple times to confirm I read it correctly. Jared Weiss in The Athletic on Saturday while discussing a Harrison Barnes trade:

"Boston could include Semi Ojeleye’s expiring deal to give Sacramento a stopgap at the four before they send John Collins a max offer sheet in the offseason."

https://theathletic.com/2465295/2021/03/19/can-the-boston-celtics-and-sacramento-kings-work-out-a-trade-for-harrison-barnes/

 

[benhogan]

I have not seen this mentioned, but I found this line intriguing concerning Collins. I had to read it multiple times to confirm I read it correctly. Jared Weiss in The Athletic on Saturday while discussing a Harrison Barnes trade:

"Boston could include Semi Ojeleye’s expiring deal to give Sacramento a stopgap at the four before they send John Collins a max offer sheet in the offseason."

https://theathletic.com/2465295/2021/03/19/can-the-boston-celtics-and-sacramento-kings-work-out-a-trade-for-harrison-barnes/

There should be several max offers for Collins this summer since Atlanta has indicated they won't go there (summer S&T possible then?). Maybe Sac is one of them?

If a team traded for Collins now, many of those teams would move on knowing that any offer would be matched. Timing is key in free agency/offseason moves (see Hayward/Summer '20/wing depth)

Figuring out how much a player will get in RFA is trickier more than ever now that the Bucks got their hands caught in the backchannel cookie jar.

 

[DGreenwood]

I have not seen this mentioned, but I found this line intriguing concerning Collins. I had to read it multiple times to confirm I read it correctly. Jared Weiss in The Athletic on Saturday while discussing a Harrison Barnes trade:

"Boston could include Semi Ojeleye’s expiring deal to give Sacramento a stopgap at the four before they send John Collins a max offer sheet in the offseason."

https://theathletic.com/2465295/2021/03/19/can-the-boston-celtics-and-sacramento-kings-work-out-a-trade-for-harrison-barnes/

There should be several max offers for Collins this summer since Atlanta has indicated they won't go there (summer S&T possible then?). Maybe Sac is one of them?

If a team traded for Collins now, many of those teams would move on knowing that any offer would be matched. Timing is key in free agency/offseason moves (see Hayward/Summer '20/wing depth)

Figuring out how much a player will get in RFA is trickier more than ever now that the Bucks got their hands caught in the backchannel cookie jar.

I think dano7594 may be reading that as the Celtics sending Collins a max offer sheet (hence his intrigue) but benhogan is correct that it's referring to Sacramento making the offer. The Celtics are in no position cap wise to make a max offer this summer.

If the Celtics were willing to max Collins they'd be trying to trade for him now using the Kanter TPE and then they could offer the max in the offseason.

 

[NomarsFool]

IF the Celtics traded for Collins, they would have his Bird rights, and could make him a max offer (while paying the luxury tax). However, I don't think the would be able to sign him as a free agent this summer outright (without having traded for him) because they wouldn't have the cap space.

 

[DGreenwood]

IF the Celtics traded for Collins, they would have his Bird rights, and could make him a max offer (while paying the luxury tax). However, I don't think the would be able to sign him as a free agent this summer outright (without having traded for him) because they wouldn't have the cap space.

It sounds like you just agreed with everything I wrote. Am I missing something?

 

[mcpickl]

Dear Danny,

Aaron Gordon is in town today. Save Wyc the expense of a plane ticket and trade for him today rather than waiting til Thursday to make a deal.

thanks

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Dear Danny,

Aaron Gordon is in town today. Save Wyc the expense of a plane ticket and trade for him today rather than waiting til Thursday to make a deal.

thanks

Totally on board with this. No one better than Gordon or Barnes is going to be available this summer for the TPE. If you can get one of them at a reasonable price, you have to.

 

[pjheff]

Totally on board with this. No one better than Gordon or Barnes is going to be available this summer for the TPE. If you can get one of them at a reasonable price, you have to.

Might Orlando be interested in Kemba to pair with Vucevic? Obviously, the pipe dream would be Kemba and every asset we have for Beal. And it’s possible that a bad team with an expiring contract (like Cleveland with Drummond or Chicago with Porter) might prefer Walker to a buyout. But would Orlando consider trading Gordon with Fournier’s expiring for a package built around Walker with a young player and a pick?

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Might Orlando be interested in Kemba to pair with Vucevic? Obviously, the pipe dream would be Kemba and every asset we have for Beal. And it’s possible that a bad team with an expiring contract (like Cleveland with Drummond or Chicago with Porter) might prefer Walker to a buyout. But would Orlando consider trading Gordon with Fournier’s expiring for a package built around Walker with a young player and a pick?

Well we know Steve Clifford loves him from his time coaching him in Charlotte. I guess it depends on how much sway Clifford has with the roster (I'm guessing not a ton). If we can make that happen I'm all for it.

 

[dano7594]

I think dano7594 may be reading that as the Celtics sending Collins a max offer sheet (hence his intrigue) but benhogan is correct that it's referring to Sacramento making the offer. The Celtics are in no position cap wise to make a max offer this summer.

If the Celtics were willing to max Collins they'd be trying to trade for him now using the Kanter TPE and then they could offer the max in the offseason.

DGreenwood, you are correct, my bad! No matter how many times I read it, my comprehension was wrong! Carry on

 

[mcpickl]

Might Orlando be interested in Kemba to pair with Vucevic? Obviously, the pipe dream would be Kemba and every asset we have for Beal. And it’s possible that a bad team with an expiring contract (like Cleveland with Drummond or Chicago with Porter) might prefer Walker to a buyout. But would Orlando consider trading Gordon with Fournier’s expiring for a package built around Walker with a young player and a pick?

I can't imagine Orlando looking to get older if they're moving Gordon/Fournier to take on Kemba, especially since they paid Fultz.

I was thinking something like this years first and 2013 first top 4 protected, Thompson and Carsen Edwards for Gordon and Khem Birch. (I'd see if NY would give me a 2nd for Thompson beforehand since they have cap space, but I'd assume they'd say no)

That would leave Boston enough room under the tax to grab another wing with the Kanter TPE. I'd try to get either Garrett Temple or Denzel Valentine(if he waived his no trade) from Chicago for a 2nd and Javonte.

If I couldn't, I'd expand Orlando trade to include James Ennis(also has a no trade) just to get a veteran wing as depth.

 

[the moops]

Aaron Gordon does nothing for me. Would much prefer Barnes if the cost is the same.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Aaron Gordon does nothing for me. Would much prefer Barnes if the cost is the same.

I’m with you in not being a fan of Gordon’s game and how he fits into a teams concept.

 

[mcpickl]

Aaron Gordon does nothing for me. Would much prefer Barnes if the cost is the same.

I think they're pretty close value-wise, but I prefer Gordon for his playmaking/rebounding/small ball 5 potential over Barnes better shooting. Also like having the extra 4 million bucks to upgrade another wing spot.

I think Gordon is more likely to be available than Barnes as well, since Orlando is further out of the playoff picture than Sacramento and have to make a decision on Fournier who's going to be a UFA. If they move Fournier, it probably makes sense for them to move Gordon as well to bottom out right now rather than waiting for the summer when Gordon would almost surely be moved with one year left on his deal.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think Barnes is probably better than Gordon BUT...
I see how Gordon fits in a closing 5 lineup better (he's your center) and at 25, he might still have more growth left in him.

 

[the moops]

I think Barnes is probably better than Gordon BUT...
I see how Gordon fits in a closing 5 lineup better (he's your center) and at 25, he might still have more growth left in him.

Are we sure that Gordon can play small center though?

 

[the moops]

Read this at the Ringer in regards to Lonzo Ball "Chicago has offered Tomas Satoransky and second-round picks". What a garbage offer that is

 

[DGreenwood]

Gordon is also more than three years younger than Barnes so he should still be in his prime through most of the Jays' prime years. Maybe it doesn't make sense to be focused that far out, but I can't help it.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Are we sure that Gordon can play small center though?

Sure.. I guess not, given he's been on a roster with a million bigs, but he has the skillset, and his play against big PFs (he's better as a 4 than a 3) indicates he shouldn't have any real problem.

 

[128]

Sure.. I guess not, given he's been on a roster with a million bigs, but he has the skillset, and his play against big PFs (he's better as a 4 than a 3) indicates he shouldn't have any real problem.

Yeah. Whatever his flaws as a player, Gordon is a sturdily built dude.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Gordon is a better use of assets than Barnes. Setting aside their age difference, Gordon simply does more winning basketball things than Barnes. Gordon is a superior defender too and that is what the OP thinks the Cs need.

Neither can really create their own shot and make it consistently enough to solve this teams scoring concentration issue but if the Cs aren't addressing that, they either don't think its an issue or don't see a viable solution in the market.

 

[benhogan]

Get Aaron Gordon + Delon Wright.
Build a legit defense, create a solid rotation, and salvage this season.

Then head into next year with some thoughts of contending

 

[nighthob]

KOC's piece in The Ringer on trade speculation indicates that the Pelicans are getting some pretty bargain basement offers for The Lonz. Enough that he could be a realistic target for Boston using one of Langford/Nesmith and picks for the talent end and then salary filler. If they could move Walker into someone's cap space over the summer they might have a pretty good switchy/defensive team. But it would require the JayCrew shouldering more of the offensive load.

 

[JCizzle]

KOC had another interesting note on our pursuit of Collins and Bogdanovic:

Boston’s pursuit of Collins also involves another key Hawks rotation player, according to league sources: Bogdan Bogdanovic, whom the Celtics had some trade discussions about while he was in Sacramento. If the Hawks were to acquire Ball, maybe moving Bogdanovic would make some sense. Both Collins, 23, and Bogdanovic, 28, fit the timeline of All-Stars Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, who are 23 and 24, yet are good enough to compete now.

I'm reading that as us trying to pick up both guys in the same transaction? That sounds like a potential monster trade.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

None of these moves make sense unless the offers for Ball, Collins and everyone else are very light. Or the Hawks view Bogdan as a straight dump. Take Bogdan, get Collins.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

None of these moves make sense unless the offers for Ball, Collins and everyone else are very light. Or the Hawks view Bogdan as a straight dump. Take Bogdan, get Collins.

It’s possible some franchises are really concerned/struggling with the revenue losses of the last year.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Gordon is a better use of assets than Barnes. Setting aside their age difference, Gordon simply does more winning basketball things than Barnes. Gordon is a superior defender too and that is what the OP thinks the Cs need.

Neither can really create their own shot and make it consistently enough to solve this teams scoring concentration issue but if the Cs aren't addressing that, they either don't think its an issue or don't see a viable solution in the market.

I’m not sure what these winning basketball things are but the Magic have never overachieved with Gordon in the lineup and some years have underachieved. As far as creating their own shot, Barnes is one of the better in the league off the dribble and against the shot clock.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I’m not sure what these winning basketball things are but the Magic have never overachieved with Gordon in the lineup and some years have underachieved. As far as creating their own shot, Barnes is one of the better in the league off the dribble and against the shot clock.

He is? I can support my position via multiple metrics - I would love to see what you data you are looking at for Barnes.

Its sad that we have to do this since its 2021 and even staunch old school types now understand that the eye-test method of analysis has limitations but if you are looking for at actual team win totals, the Magic are 47-65 since the start of last season. The Kings are 48-66. So while Barnes may good with shot clocks, it doesn't seem to get his team more wins. As for the other comment, I would love to see what says Barnes is "one of the better in the league off the dribble". If he is, its not showing up anywhere I look and I personally know a few Warriors, Mavs and Kings fans who would take issue with that statement.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

He is? I can support my position via multiple metrics - I would love to see what you data you are looking at for Barnes.

Its sad that we have to do this since its 2021 and even staunch old school types now understand that the eye-test method of analysis has limitations but if you are looking for at actual team win totals, the Magic are 47-65 since the start of last season. The Kings are 48-66. So while Barnes may good with shot clocks, it doesn't seem to get his team more wins. As for the other comment, I would love to see what says Barnes is "one of the better in the league off the dribble". If he is, its not showing up anywhere I look and I personally know a few Warriors, Mavs and Kings fans who would take issue with that statement.

You have metrics to cite that Gordon’s winning basketball things helped the Magic to a 47-65 record? I’m not saying Barnes is anything more than a 3rd/4th option but I’m not going to listen to fans opinion of his skill set. If we did that as Celtics fans they would have tried convincing me that Marcus Morris and Rozier couldn’t create their own shot......when it is their best NBA-level skill.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I assumed you knew what I meant but for clarity's sake , it was a reference to skills that are valued in today's NBA. Gordon measures out as a more valuable player using those metrics. I don't believe you put much stock in them so we can agree to disagree about their value and move on.

But first, lets look at Harrison Barnes off the dribble.

Of 338 players who have played at least 20 games this season, Barnes is squarely in the middle of the pack in terms of frequency with which he takes 3-6 dribbles before shooting. He is efficient scoring this year (an outlier like many of his offensive stats this season) but on par with guys like Tim Hardaway Jr. or Kevin Huerter.

Also, Barnes is having a career year in terms of shooting which strikes me as fools gold, meaning that while he is a good shooter, he isn't this good. Mcnair is smart to dangle Barnes. Its akin to selling at the highs.

Barnes is useful. But I don't get the love for him around here or especially from guys like Scal. He is essentially an older, league average player who gives them some cap flexibility. Feels like a bad use of assets to me.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I assumed you knew what I meant but for clarity's sake , it was a reference to skills that are valued in today's NBA. Gordon measures out as a more valuable player using those metrics. I don't believe you put much stock in them so we can agree to disagree about their value and move on.

But first, lets look at Harrison Barnes off the dribble.

Of 338 players who have played at least 20 games this season, Barnes is squarely in the middle of the pack in terms of frequency with which he takes 3-6 dribbles before shooting. He is efficient scoring this year (an outlier like many of his offensive stats this season) but on par with guys like Tim Hardaway Jr. or Kevin Huerter.

Also, Barnes is having a career year in terms of shooting which strikes me as fools gold, meaning that while he is a good shooter, he isn't this good. Mcnair is smart to dangle Barnes. Its akin to selling at the highs.

Barnes is useful. But I don't get the love for him around here or especially from guys like Scal. He is essentially an older, league average player who gives them some cap flexibility. Feels like a bad use of assets to me.

I don’t know why you would say I don’t believe in metrics or models as I use the latter every day. They just shouldn’t be all end off of any decision as valuable information would be omitted. There is a popular metric used today that has Patty Mills graded out as a Top-10 player this season. So no, I don’t blindly believe in metrics alone.

I’ve stated before my feelings on Barnes and they don’t seem much different than yours. A league average starting 4 is one thing this team is in desperate need of as an upgrade over the current players at that position. So yes, I feel investing some future assets would be a reasonable price to pay for certain production.

 

[the moops]

Barnes is useful. But I don't get the love for him around here or especially from guys like Scal. He is essentially an older, league average player who gives them some cap flexibility. Feels like a bad use of assets to me.

But their assets are not all that valuable. I guess they could throw in like 4 first round picks and that would pique the interest of a lot of teams, but if they are looking to send out a couple late firsts and some underwhelming young players, I am not sure what you can expect besides a league average player.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I don’t know why you would say I don’t believe in metrics or models as I use the latter every day. They just shouldn’t be all end off of any decision as valuable information would be omitted. There is a popular metric used today that has Patty Mills graded out as a Top-10 player this season. So no, I don’t blindly believe in metrics alone.

I’ve stated before my feelings on Barnes and they don’t seem much different than yours. A league average starting 4 is one thing this team is in desperate need of as an upgrade over the current players at that position. So yes, I feel investing some future assets would be a reasonable price to pay for certain production.

I don't even know why basketball needs a metric. It's the one game where your eyes aren't really lying to you. It's not baseball.

 

[the moops]

I don't even know why basketball needs a metric. It's the one game where your eyes aren't really lying to you. It's not baseball.

Your eyes can't watch all 5 players and what they are or are not doing though. I mean, sure, you could watch film and isolate each player and watch all 48 minutes of play for each position, but that is what the metrics do. Or attempt to do

 

[Jimbodandy]

I'm not pumped about Barnes either, but I'm shocked at the Gordon love. Yeah, he'd be an upgrade on some of the dreck that we're rolling out there. I wouldn't put any stock in his nice little run of 3pt shooting, when he's a career .325 shooter and has actually dropped in FT% to 62.5 this year. He's an expensive swiss army knife, and his defense is pretty poor.

 

[boca]

Aaron Gordon has requested a trade -

View: https://twitter.com/JaredWeissNBA/status/1373986406012440580?s=20



Aaron Gordon has formally requested a trade from the Orlando Magic, sources tell
@sam_amick & me. A deep dive his trade market, the Celtics’ pursuit of John Collins & how Marcus Smart and Bogdan Bogdanovic could be involved.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Why would the Hawks want Gordon?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Your eyes can't watch all 5 players and what they are or are not doing though. I mean, sure, you could watch film and isolate each player and watch all 48 minutes of play for each position, but that is what the metrics do. Or attempt to do

I guess, but at least my eyes don't tell me Amir Johnson is a top 10 player.

 

[lovegtm]

Why would the Hawks want Gordon?

Just spitballing, but fills Collins’ position, is versatile, and much cheaper next year (and probably on his next contract too).

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Just spitballing, but fills Collins’ position, is versatile, and much cheaper next year (and probably on his next contract too).

You'd have to think they are the team who wants Smart too, not Orlando. Who would Orlando get?

Collins and Bog to C's.
Gordon and Smart to Atlanta
??? to Orlando

And how could the C's afford to sign Collins with Bog?

 

[Devizier]

I'm guessing it's Atlanta that's leaking the Bogdan interest; they bought high on him and the guy has not done very much this year. He also has $72 million due to him in the coming years as he enters his thirties. Maybe they're hoping that teams get him confused with Bojan.

The only way Bogdan makes sense for the Celtics is if Kemba goes somewhere else, which seems exceedingly unlikely.

 

[boca]

I'm guessing it's Atlanta that's leaking the Bogdan interest; they bought high on him and the guy has not done very much this year. He also has $72 million due to him in the coming years as he enters his thirties. Maybe they're hoping that teams get him confused with Bojan.

The only way Bogdan makes sense for the Celtics is if Kemba goes somewhere else, which seems exceedingly unlikely.

Collins doesn't make a lot of sense either given that he's been pretty vocal about wanting to be paid max money.

 

[the moops]

I guess, but at least my eyes don't tell me Amir Johnson is a top 10 player.

True. But your eyes would probably tell you that he was an easily replaceable big, and that probably wasn't the case

 

[the moops]

I'm guessing it's Atlanta that's leaking the Bogdan interest; they bought high on him and the guy has not done very much this year. He also has $72 million due to him in the coming years as he enters his thirties. Maybe they're hoping that teams get him confused with Bojan.

The only way Bogdan makes sense for the Celtics is if Kemba goes somewhere else, which seems exceedingly unlikely.

If only New Orleans viewed Kemba as exactly what they needed.

Kemba + to NO
Collins, Bogdanovic to BOS
Ball + to ATL

 

[128]

View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1374010158632828930?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1374010158632828930%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcelticsnuts.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%2Ftopic7055.40.html

 

[NomarsFool]

You can want good firsts, but the reality is that - apart from a few outlier examples - the teams that would be acquiring these players are all (at least for them) hopefully picking in the 20s. No lottery team is trading for Gordon or Collins, most likely.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

They want a good first and a young player for Terrance Ross? GL with that.

2 and a young player for Gordon? What are these asking prices? lol

And I like Terrance Ross and am surprised he hasn't been mentioned as a target. Not at that price though. Maybe a top 20 protected pick. I'd put him there with Delon Wright, though they fit different needs.

edit: I'd prefer Delon. This team needs some playmaking and isn't as reliant on teammates to create him shots.

 

[Devizier]

View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1374010158632828930?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1374010158632828930%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcelticsnuts.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%2Ftopic7055.40.html

Yeah, outside of Vucevic, good firsts are not in the cards for Orlando.

 

[lovegtm]

View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1374010158632828930?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1374010158632828930%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcelticsnuts.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%2Ftopic7055.40.html

It's nice to want things.

 

[lexrageorge]

The play-in does mean that there are more buyers than sellers, so Orlando has little incentive to suggest an honest asking price for their tradeable assets at this point. Best to set an unrealistic price now and see if some team is desperate enough to bite. If not, they can always adjust as we get closer to Thursday.