Spygate 2: Red Sox Stealing Signs and Relaying Electronically

paulb0t

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I don't know if it's gamesman ship or what –– teams are always looking for an edge. Is this worse than using the TV feed in the dugouts? Either way, it appears that the Sox batters are as bad at cheating as they are with just about every other aspect of hitting. I just hope that the consequences aren't significant in terms of draft/IFA draft money/etc.
 

geoduck no quahog

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They admitted it.
Admitted what?

"...video showed a member of the Red Sox training staff looking at his Apple Watch in the dugout and then relaying a message to players, who may have then been able to use the information to know the type of pitch that was going to be thrown..."

"...the Red Sox...admitted that their trainers had received signals from video replay personnel and then relayed that information to some players..."

During the at bat?

What signals? Hit & Run? Steal? Other signals from the bench...or from the catcher...

Admitting receiving information electronically is illegal and should be punished. I, for one, have no idea what information they were receiving.
 

JohntheBaptist

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The only thing that's unlikeable is losing.
Well that and coming up with some cockamamie scheme to step over a red line and gain advantage, then still losing, and then getting caught.

Admitted what?
What did I misunderstand? You've been picking apart what could/ couldn't have happened and then surmised an inability to parse it out made it "bullshit." The second quote you bolded means it isn't bullshit--they admitted to cheating. I don't really "get" the mechanics of what they did just yet, either.
 

rodderick

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This is amateur hour horseshit. I'd wager the Red Sox aren't the only team stealing signs using electronic means, but they certainly appear to be the only team dumb enough to be caught. The punishment would have to be outrageous for me to believe it was unfair.
 

The Needler

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Dec 7, 2016
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I read it as the MFY secretly taped the Sox dug-out,

Thanks God the NFL is about to start and we can forget this bullshit.
This bullshit being...baseball? A tight division race with the archrival? I can't wait until the Red Sox message board can focus on the truly important sport, either.
 

Reggie's Racquet

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How many small, minor items does John Farrell have to fuck up before we realize that his lack of attention to detail makes him an incompetent manger?

Seriously, just fire him. How in the world could he allow something so obvious?
Well if Sox management decided to fire our brilliant manager one would think Farrell would resign first because he would know it was coming by looking at his Apple watch.
 

Madmartigan

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Maybe if Farrell spent more time coaching fundamentals instead of coming up with and executing cockamamie schemes like this the team would play better baseball. The guy needs to be canned, but the story will be blown even more out of proportion if they do it now, so waiting is best. Also, it's nice that the Sox accused the yanks of sign stealing, but is there any proof?
 

Sampo Gida

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Are we really going to defend with the argument that it didn't seem to help much?

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I could argue that relaying the key to signs to players on the bench does not help much if at all if the future signs given can only be relayed to the hitter from a runner at 2B. Teams like the Yankees probably change signs every inning and half the time the catcher is calling pitches verbally.

Using your Broadcasters camera or video guy to relay signs or location to the hitter somehow in real time would be much more effective , and there is no evidence this is the case.

So violation of rules-yeah. Evidence it helped much? Nil

One additional thought. Chris Young Embedded Yankee? Has to be a reason Red Sox confessed. Someone leaked. Pablo another suspect
 

dhappy42

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Bob Nightengale has additional info.

"One of baseball’s oldest rivalries is embroiled in a most 21st-century controversy, as Major League Baseball prepares to discipline the Boston Red Sox for using an Apple Watch to steal signs from their longtime enemies, the New York Yankees.

A baseball official with direct knowledge of the investigation confirmed that MLB is aware of the allegations - which also includes the unauthorized use of cellular phones - and will prepare discipline against the Red Sox.

The official noted that the practice also occurred against other teams, and involved at least four Red Sox players and members of the training staff."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/09/05/mlb-determined-red-sox-stole-signs-yankees-using-apple-watch/635034001/
It's disconcerting, but unsurprising that NY sportswriters can't get this relatively simple story right, much in the same way they continue to screw up "spygate."

The Red Sox didn't use an Apple Watch to steal signs. They used the watch to relay stolen signs. Might not seem like a big dealdifference, but it's just stupid, misleading and wrong.

If I'm on 2nd base and steal the catchers signs and touch my nose to indicate a fastball, I didn't use my nose to steal the catcher's signs.

Every team steals signs. The rule the Sox broke here is the manner in which the info was relayed, not how it was obtained. On that point, it'd be interesting to know more about the allegation against the Yankees. Using a dedicated YES camera to steal signs would be more egregious than using an Apple Watch to relay them. Odd (not) that that part of the story was downplayed.
 

AB in DC

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If the NYT story is accurate (which bears repeating), then this is worse the Spygate. Spygate was a technical violation of a rule that was designed to prevent use of recorded signals during the game -- except that there was no evidence that the Patriots did that. But if the Sox did use the signals during the game, that's well over the line.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Sucks Pedroia is involved. He'll have a tough time washing himself of this stink as his HOF credentials are debated. Weak shit all around.
 

bankshot1

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This bullshit being...baseball? A tight division race with the archrival? I can't wait until the Red Sox message board can focus on the truly important sport, either.
I think you missed the tongue in cheek nature of my post. NFL/Spygate/Deflategate...

But I might ask Cashman who approved him to secretly tape a rival on what could have been a fishing expedition, what else was discovered?
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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The YES camera thing is not a new belief. The filing may be gamesmanship or turnabout, but more likely they believe they can make MLB look closely enough that they may be forced to move it a little or not utilize it at all. Doubtful, though. Ans If it is just a straight feed with no recording, seems to me like it could be vanished before investigators even pick up the phone.
 

JohntheBaptist

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I could argue that relaying the key to signs to players on the bench does not help much if at all if the future signs given can only be relayed to the hitter from a runner at 2B. Teams like the Yankees probably change signs every inning and half the time the catcher is calling pitches verbally.

Using your Broadcasters camera or video guy to relay signs or location to the hitter somehow in real time would be much more effective , and there is no evidence this is the case.

So violation of rules-yeah. Evidence it helped much? Nil
There were studies done that corking a bat doesn't help and, in fact, may do the opposite, yes?

Intent is what matters.
 

TheoShmeo

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The bullshit being yet another scandal involving a Boston team.
The Pats' supposed scandals don't bother me in the least. Both were massively overblown and haven't stopped the Pats from winning.

I'm not quite sure what this one is yet and how bad it is for the Sox. But inasmuch as I think this team had a very limited chance to win a title before this happened, this just doesn't work me up either. At least not yet.

Opposing fans will make use of it and we'll be seeing cheater memes about Boston sports, etc. Let them have their fun. Nothing could be worse than sitting through "19-18" at the Hell Hole in the Bronx.
 

Van Everyman

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They obviously didn't utilize this system with runners in scoring position.
Actually, according to the NYT article:

In the first game of the series in question, the first time the Red Sox got a runner on second was Xander Bogaerts, in the second inning. Rafael Devers promptly hit a home run, giving the Red Sox a 2-0 lead. The Red Sox went 5 for 8 in the first game when they had a man on second.

Their success when they had a runner on second in the other two games was mixed: 1 for 6 in the second game; and 3 for 10 in the third game.
That said, I will be interested to let this story play out a bit. I find it interesting that Cashman sent a detailed report to MLB about this.
 

paulb0t

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Farrell wasn't aware of the sign-stealing scheme according to the Times story. That's just perfect.
This is embarrassingly bad. Either Farrell has lost control of the coaching staff, or he's lying. Either well, it doesn't really put him in all that good of a spot. Which maybe is good?
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

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I'm sick of the "unlikeable team" mantra. They were damn likable two weeks ago when they were continually coming from behind and playing awesome defense and Devers was transcendent.

You can't tell me Mookie, JBJ, Devers, Sale, Kimbrel, Pedroia, Benintendi and Vazquez are unlikeable. Bogaerts is in a painful slump, but there's no reason to think he's not giving his all, and isn't a pleasant guy. Hanley may be stubborn, but he was sure likable when he had Papi as protection.

The only thing that's unlikeable is losing. I hate Matt Barnes the ballplayer with the heat of a thousand suns, but there's no reason to accuse him of being a bad guy.

Except David Price. That guy's a douche.
The whole offense has underperformed this year. That's pretty damned unlikeable in my book.
 

JayMags71

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If this becomes another Spygate/Deflategate 16-month take-o-rama, I think that I'm done with sports. Seriously.
Totally agree. The NFL's despicable use of "Deflategate" as a distraction from the Ray Rice coverup and CTE issues drove a stake through my NFL fandom. I don't have the patience to live thru the MLB-centric sequel. Fuck that noise.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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This is embarrassingly bad. Either Farrell has lost control of the coaching staff, or he's lying. Either well, it doesn't really put him in all that good of a spot. Which maybe is good?
I think he's cooked either way. If he knew, he was okay with it, which could mean he was either conned into believing it wasn't against the rules or was in favor of it. If he was conned, then it's just as bad as it would be if he didn't know at all. On one hand, it's incompetence. On the other, it's blatantly encouraging cheating. I don't see how he survives it.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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What exactly is "it" here? I haven't seen a single official statement other than second-hand tweets and the NYT article.
To stealing signs the way the Yankees described to MLB. And it's in the article:

Baseball investigators corroborated the Yankees’ claims based on video the commissioner’s office uses for instant replay and broadcasts, the people said. The commissioner’s office then confronted the Red Sox, who admitted that their trainers had received signals from video replay personnel and then relayed that information to some players — an operation that had been in place for at least several weeks.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Now it turns into "He let this happen under his watch" instead of blessing it in 5...4...3...
The opposing team was shrewd enough to notice a pattern (while not being in close proximity) and record video evidence of the transgression while John's melon head swayed gently in the breeze just feet away from his players and staff executing a conspiracy to cheat. Totally a good look for the manager, right.
 

BaseballJones

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Even though this is, if true, much worse than Spygate or, God forbid, "Deflategate", I find that this entire episode bothers me FAR less than what the Pats have gone through. Not sure why.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Even though this is, if true, much worse than Spygate or, God forbid, "Deflategate", I find that this entire episode bothers me FAR less than what the Pats have gone through. Not sure why.
probably because there is a sign stealing scandal in the MLB at least once a year.
 

paulb0t

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Come on. Whether he was aware or not, this is what they're going to say. There's no information there.
"Lost control of the coaching staff" was more tongue in cheek, but it seems like he's not protecting the coaching staff – which maybe is the right call. I think no matter what it's hard for him to come out looking good on this, though.