Spygate 2: Red Sox Stealing Signs and Relaying Electronically

Tyrone Biggums

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How many small, minor items does John Farrell have to fuck up before we realize that his lack of attention to detail makes him an incompetent manger?

Seriously, just fire him. How in the world could he allow something so obvious?
They won't. The ownership is 100% committed to this buffoon. Get someone in here that can salvage this season. Right now the team is on the ropes and looking down the barrel of possibly collapsing in September again.

They won't lose picks and might get a small fine but this should be enough to get rid of Manager John.
 

RedOctober3829

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This is the key part to the article.

"During games, the tablets cannot be connected to the Internet or stream live video, MLB says. Any data to be used must be loaded from network connections installed during the offseason in all home and visiting clubhouses."

The iPads are not connected to the Internet while in the dugout so nothing like this can be done.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It's going to be really interesting to hear with Henry has to say.

He's got to be off the wall livid.
 

Stitch01

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5 replies in and we've already got excuses, conspiracies, media callouts...

This is simple. We cheated. We should be punished. Other teams, if they cheat, should be punished too. This was a bold, and very, very stupid thing to do. We should not be upset by the punishment that comes down.
I mean they're gonna get slapped with a punishment if the story is accurate (although the Cards punishment should provide a pretty obvious ceiling), but I dont have real high hope for avoiding hot takes given the article 1) couldnt accurately describe an event that happened ten years ago and 2) throws in a vague unsourced reference towards "taking away some victories" which is never happening.
 

Ed Hillel

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I don't care about sign stealing in any sport. A smart team would prepare and find a way to use it against any team trying to spy by switching things up. This will probably go as far as Manfred lets it, so I guess this is his Goodell test. Whatever.
 

Salem's Lot

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Why release Holt and Young, but suspend Pedroia? Just curious what the distinction is. Is it because they are not doing well and he's very important to the team?
I'm just being realistic. You'd have to eat a contract that I don't think the ownership would eat. If he was on a 1-2 year deal then release him as well.
 

Toe Nash

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If the Yankees are letting the runner at 2B steal signs, that's 100% on them. That's as old as baseball. The stats about the Sox going whatever for whatever with a runner on second base are useless.

If the Sox were getting signs to relay to batters from the dugout, which is what this appears to be, then they're in some trouble.
Yeah, this is really bad reporting, (which is unsurprising). The details about a guy on second have nothing to do with the complaint and of course the counter-accusations are barely given any space.

It's actually not really about the watch but that was certainly highlighted because it sounds like something spy-like. I assume Jochim was allegedly getting a text or something, but they could have set it up any number of other ways that would be less detectable, with or without technology.

Anyway if you think every team isn't trying this you're naive. The Sox just did it poorly.
 

ifmanis5

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If the Sox are doing this and got caught then they should be punished by the league and Farrell should be fired. Considering they just got their clock cleaned by the Yankees, and have been pretty poor against everyone except Toronto lately, I wonder how well this is working if in fact they are doing it at all.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Still no explanation of how it works given the time constraints.

The "Fire Farrell" and "This explains why they're hitting so well..." posts work fine without repetition.

How many time recently has it looked like the opposition knew exactly what a Red Sox pitcher was going to toss? I keep thinking it's a tell. Maybe not.
 

bosox79

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I'm just being realistic. You'd have to eat a contract that I don't think the ownership would eat. If he was on a 1-2 year deal then release him as well.
Releasing anyone for this is just scapegoating. The union would probably get involved right away too.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Goodell destroyed the Spygate tapes. Will Manfred handle this differently and release the video of Jochim and the players? That would be really damaging to the Red Sox.
 

Seabass177

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I don't care about sign stealing in any sport. A smart team would prepare and find a way to use it against any team trying to spy by switching things up. This will probably go as far as Manfred lets it, so I guess this is his Goodell test. Whatever.
This isn't "sign stealing" in the conventional sense, this is using electronics in the dugout to steal signs, big difference.

This was stupid and happened under Farrell's watch. Time for him to go.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Agreed that all the stuff in the article about a runner on second base is irrelevant. Why even put in the stats about that? It makes no sense.

Of course the guy on second relays in the signs - that's why the catcher changes to the series of signs. Whoever wrote the article seems only dimly acquainted with how that works.

The deal here is that WITHOUT a guy on second, the Sox were able to monitor the signs, text the guy with the watch, then signal the batter. Agreed with the poster above that it seems like there's barely time for that.

And what an indictment of the coaching staff, the players, etc., that they'd set up something like this. Clearly, it wasn't a huge gain, but now people are going to point to how good their home record is, etc., even though I don't see why the same plan wouldn't work on the road.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I'm just being realistic. You'd have to eat a contract that I don't think the ownership would eat. If he was on a 1-2 year deal then release him as well.
I get it. That's further than I'd go for any of the players. I'm disappointed they didn't stand up and say, "no way," if the reporting is true. But I view their role as similar to pine tar or whatever cheating a pitcher might do -- maybe less so since the scheme was obviously hatched by or with approval of the coaching staff. I'd suspend them some games, and I'm disappointed in the players, but I think this is a team issue not a player issue. Again, assuming the reporting is accurate.
 

BaseballJones

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I mean they're gonna get slapped with a punishment if the story is accurate (although the Cards punishment should provide a pretty obvious ceiling), but I dont have real high hope for avoiding hot takes given the article 1) couldnt accurately describe an event that happened ten years ago and 2) throws in a vague unsourced reference towards "taking away some victories" which is never happening.
I both agree and disagree with the bolded. I agree insofar as hacking into another team's internal database is a FAR more egregious crime, and in fact, is a federal crime if I'm not mistaken. Corporate espionage. But I disagree in that Manfred said that the Cardinals basically were one guy going rogue, and he had to hold the organization responsible somehow. But this story about Boston, assuming it's all true, means it was a coordinated effort to cheat, including management. So yeah, I could see them getting punished much more significantly.

Add to that the fact that they were just found guilty (in the baseball court of law) of circumventing the international signing rules not long ago, and it's a very bad look to have two different instances of cheating in such a short span of time. I expect the Red Sox to be hit pretty hard here, though no, there's no freaking way they're forfeiting games for this. That would open up a massive Pandora's box.
 

rembrat

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Firing Farrell for letting the players and staff take part in something like this would go over well with the troops. Quickest way to tank this season would be to take this course.
 

Marbleheader

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Just allow sign stealing. You can't avoid it with today's technology. Embrace it, assume everyone can see what you're doing in plain sight. It's not 1920 any more.
 

DrewDawg

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Still no explanation of how it works given the time constraints.

How many time recently has it looked like the opposition knew exactly what a Red Sox pitcher was going to toss? I keep thinking it's a tell. Maybe not.

Yeah--tell me how giving info to Chris Young IN THE OUTFIELD is stealing signs. Because according the MLB Radio that's what happened.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I don't care about sign stealing in any sport. A smart team would prepare and find a way to use it against any team trying to spy by switching things up. This will probably go as far as Manfred lets it, so I guess this is his Goodell test. Whatever.
Yeah, stealing signs is as old as the game itself. That in and of itself is not a big deal.

But using technology to do so, IMO, is a step too far. A runner on second seeing the catcher's signs and picking up on something to relay to the hitter is one thing. A runner on second relaying something to the hitter from the dugout because they picked something up on video or whatever...throw the book at them.
 

geoduck no quahog

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It's not physically possible!

A guy on second sees the sign and immediately relays a signal to the hitter, who's looking right at him prior to the windup. Possible.

A guy watching video sees the sign and relays it (via text, presumably) to a guy on the bench's apple watch, who reads the sign and then relays it to someone the hitter can see who then relays it to the hitter before the windup. Try it out. Don't forget the texting part (press 3 buttons, ok). Not possible.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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What's crazy is that the Sox already admitted to it. So they definitely did it. But I agree it doesn't seem humanly possible or advantageous.

Also, really enjoying this Twitter account today:

 

Sampo Gida

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Look at the Red Sox hitters H-A splits and look at the Yankee hitters (even a guy like Judge batting from the right side). Someone is cheating at home.

As for the Red Sox, I guess that works home and away. I doubt they are the only team doing it with tech. Perhaps this recent slump is because they can no longer cheat. Could explain the epic RISP fail of late although the Red Sox are an incredible 20 for 140 or something like that against the Yankees with RISP. Even subtracting the 1-27 this past series thats 19-113. Hasnt helped much

If true Farrell should be suspended the rest of the year. That might help us.

That 2011 feel is getting stronger. Chicken and Beer replaced by Apple Gate
 

ifmanis5

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Goodell destroyed the Spygate tapes. Will Manfred handle this differently and release the video of Jochim and the players? That would be really damaging to the Red Sox.
But first he leaked them to Jay Glazer and FOX Sports. I remember watching them during a halftime on one of the FOX games. Will MLB also leak them?
 

geoduck no quahog

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You know what makes more sense to me (albeit not very much)?

Someone's relaying pitch location after the call to the hitter. Telling the hitter that ump just gave 2" outside...or the pitch he just swung at was a strike...or...WTF, who knows...

At least there's time after the swing to communicate with the batter.
 

Ed Hillel

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Yeah, stealing signs is as old as the game itself. That in and of itself is not a big deal.

But using technology to do so, IMO, is a step too far. A runner on second seeing the catcher's signs and picking up on something to relay to the hitter is one thing. A runner on second relaying something to the hitter from the dugout because they picked something up on video or whatever...throw the book at them.
Teams have done this all the time with video cameras, so I'm not sure why injecting an Apple Watch into the equation changes all that much. Toronto's been accused of using cameras in center field for decades, and I would venture it's a presumed fact within MLB circles.

This title is misleading, though. They were caught and admitted it.
 

strek1

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Since we haven't been able to beat the MFY, what advantage did we gain from doing this?

And I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished for breaking the rules, I'm more wondering why we still couldn't hit them knowing what's coming!
 

geoduck no quahog

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(I'm on a roll now...avoiding work duties)

Players switch between teams all the time. How could something like this be kept a secret? Did Sandoval feel so loyal that he didn't mention it to anyone? Word doesn't spread down to the minors?

It all seems like bullshit to me, like there's a big misunderstanding of what they were actually doing.
 

TheoShmeo

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Firing Farrell for letting the players and staff take part in something like this would go over well with the troops. Quickest way to tank this season would be to take this course.
Meh, I want Farrell's head on a stick but I'm content to wait until the end of the season. Firings now would be rash. This thing is going to play out for a while.
 

JohntheBaptist

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Players switch between teams all the time. How could something like this be kept a secret? Did Sandoval feel so loyal that he didn't mention it to anyone? Word doesn't spread down to the minors?

It all seems like bullshit to me, like there's a big misunderstanding of what they were actually doing.
They admitted it.
 

dhappy42

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Teams have done this all the time with video cameras, so I'm not sure why injecting an Apple Watch into the equation changes all that much. Toronto's been accused of using cameras in center field for decades, and I would venture it's a presumed fact within MLB circles.

This title is misleading, though. They were caught and admitted it.
The watch has nothing to do with the sign stealing. It's just the way the sign stealers in the video room (somewhere in the clubhouse? Up in a booth?) communicated with the dugout. If they'd used runners instead, it'd be kosher.
 

DrewDawg

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You know what makes more sense to me (albeit not very much)?

Someone's relaying pitch location after the call to the hitter. Telling the hitter that ump just gave 2" outside...or the pitch he just swung at was a strike...or...WTF, who knows...

At least there's time after the swing to communicate with the batter.

It's possible they're not using it "live". They get info that Yankees are going with second sign with runner on 2B. Then next time situation arises team has preplanned signal--runner's hand on left knee is fastball, hand on right knee is breaking pitch.
 

Ed Hillel

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The watch has nothing to do with the sign stealing. It's just the way the sign stealers in the video room (somewhere in the clubhouse? Up in a booth?) communicated with the dugout. If they'd used runners instead, it'd be kosher.
Right, I just don't see the big red line here. So instead of a guy in the clubhouse or stands relaying signs they've obtained from video, it's done with a watch. Shrug.

These guys are morons for doing it this way, though, it can't be more effective than using someone in the stands and they're far more likely to get caught.

I'm more concerned about the Hall of Fame implications, though. Farrell might have issues now.
 

RedOctober3829

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Bob Nightengale has additional info.

"One of baseball’s oldest rivalries is embroiled in a most 21st-century controversy, as Major League Baseball prepares to discipline the Boston Red Sox for using an Apple Watch to steal signs from their longtime enemies, the New York Yankees.

A baseball official with direct knowledge of the investigation confirmed that MLB is aware of the allegations - which also includes the unauthorized use of cellular phones - and will prepare discipline against the Red Sox.

The official noted that the practice also occurred against other teams, and involved at least four Red Sox players and members of the training staff."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/09/05/mlb-determined-red-sox-stole-signs-yankees-using-apple-watch/635034001/
 

Mugsy's Jock

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This is the nail in the coffin for me with this team. They were already pretty unlikeable. Being bad at cheating didn't help. Fire Farrell. Now.
I'm sick of the "unlikeable team" mantra. They were damn likable two weeks ago when they were continually coming from behind and playing awesome defense and Devers was transcendent.

You can't tell me Mookie, JBJ, Devers, Sale, Kimbrel, Pedroia, Benintendi and Vazquez are unlikeable. Bogaerts is in a painful slump, but there's no reason to think he's not giving his all, and isn't a pleasant guy. Hanley may be stubborn, but he was sure likable when he had Papi as protection.

The only thing that's unlikeable is losing. I hate Matt Barnes the ballplayer with the heat of a thousand suns, but there's no reason to accuse him of being a bad guy.

Except David Price. That guy's a douche.
 

Steve Dillard

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Do you suppose the Yanks, knowing that they were being spied upon, devised a system to send false signals? That would explain the Sox suckitude this past week.