Spygate 2: Red Sox Stealing Signs and Relaying Electronically

RedOctober3829

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WASHINGTON — For decades, spying on another team has been as much a part of the gamesmanship of baseball as brushback pitches and hard slides. The Red Sox have apparently added a modern — and illicit — twist: They used an Apple Watch to gain an advantage against the Yankees and other teams.

Investigators for Major League Baseball have determined that the Boston Red Sox, who are in first place in the American League East and likely headed to the playoffs, executed a scheme to illicitly steal hand signals from opponents’ catchers in games against the second-place Yankees and other teams, according to several people briefed on the matter.

The baseball inquiry began about two weeks ago, after the Yankees’ general manager, Brian Cashman, filed a detailed complaint with the commissioner’s office that included video the Yankees shot of the Red Sox dugout during a three-game series in Boston last month.

The Yankees, who had long been suspicious of the Red Sox stealing catchers’ signs in Fenway Park, contended the video showed a member of the Red Sox training staff looking at his Apple Watch in the dugout and then relaying a message to players, who may have then been able to use the information to know the type of pitch that was going to be thrown when they were hitting, according to the people familiar with the case.

Baseball investigators corroborated the Yankees’ claims based on video the commissioner’s office uses for instant replay and broadcasts, the people said. The commissioner’s office then confronted the Red Sox, who admitted that their trainers had received signals from video replay personnel and then relayed that information to some players — an operation that had been in place for at least several weeks.

The video provided to the commissioner’s office by the Yankees was captured during the first two games of the series and included at least three clips. In the clips, the team’s assistant athletic trainer, Jon Jochim, is seen looking at his Apple Watch and then passing information to outfielder Brock Holt and second baseman Dustin Pedroia, who was injured at the time but in uniform. In one instance, Pedroia is then seen passing the information to Young.

Some in baseball would like for Mr. Manfred to take away some of Boston’s victories, a move that would be highly unusual. Others believe that a significant fine and the docking of draft picks would be sufficient.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/sports/baseball/boston-red-sox-stealing-signs-yankees.html?smid=tw-nytsports&smtyp=cur
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Oh, those poor, poor Yankees. Will anyone ever think of them?

If this becomes another Spygate/Deflategate 16-month take-o-rama, I think that I'm done with sports. Seriously.
 

Stitch01

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Oh, those poor, poor Yankees. Will anyone ever think of them?

If this becomes another Spygate/Deflategate 16-month take-o-rama, I think that I'm done with sports. Seriously.
A decade ago, the N.F.L. commissioner, Roger Goodell, hastily took away a first-round draft pick and fined the Patriots and their coach, Bill Belichick, before conducting a thorough investigation. When more evidence of cheating later emerged, Goodell was accused of trying to minimize the damage and protect one of the sport’s premiere franchises. Congress eventually got involved.

Welp, that's not a great start.
 

dcmissle

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If only the results were similar. Perhaps this will be the jolt the RS need.
 

Cesar Crespo

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in the article linked, it mentions the Sox also filed a complaint against the Yankees for the same thing. I can't see this going anywhere.
 

pokey_reese

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Well, if they already admitted to doing it, seems like we aren't going to be getting any high draft picks/international signing dollars again soon. What's more disturbing, however, is that the team STILL couldn't hit even when they were getting signs.
 

BestGameEvah

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And typical of the NYTimes antics, the fact that the Red Sox filed a complaint against the Yankees, claiming that the team uses a camera from its television network, YES, exclusively to steal signs during games, doesn't make it into the headline.
 

TonyPenaNeverJuiced

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5 replies in and we've already got excuses, conspiracies, media callouts...

This is simple. We cheated. We should be punished. Other teams, if they cheat, should be punished too. This was a bold, and very, very stupid thing to do. We should not be upset by the punishment that comes down.
 

alydar

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A decade ago, the N.F.L. commissioner, Roger Goodell, hastily took away a first-round draft pick and fined the Patriots and their coach, Bill Belichick, before conducting a thorough investigation. When more evidence of cheating later emerged, Goodell was accused of trying to minimize the damage and protect one of the sport’s premiere franchises. Congress eventually got involved.

Welp, that's not a great start.
My thoughts exactly.

I doubt this goes away quickly.
 

kenneycb

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I'm guessing this is pretty much like the international bonus thing where everyone does something similar and one team decided to rat to MLB for one reason or another.
 

budcrew08

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My favorite part:

In the first game of the series in question, the first time the Red Sox got a runner on second was Xander Bogaerts, in the second inning. Rafael Devers promptly hit a home run, giving the Red Sox a 2-0 lead. The Red Sox went 5 for 8 in the first game when they had a man on second.

Their success when they had a runner on second in the other two games was mixed: 1 for 6 in the second game; and 3 for 10 in the third game.
Well, shit, if they are going to cheat, can we not go 1-for-6 with RISP? Been the shittiest thing all year for this team. [/sarcasm]
 

donutogre

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My thoughts exactly.

I doubt this goes away quickly.
Aside from the fact that they already admitted to the wrongdoing, which means they will hopefully get penalized and move on.

That said, I understand that basically nothing goes away quickly in this news landscape. Will make for an "interesting" playoff matchup, should that happen.
 

soxhop411

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So. Will the Sox punishment be worse than what STL got for hacking into another teams computer system.
 

amlothi

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What rule are they accused of breaking exactly? How would relaying information to someone who isn't the current hitter be of help? So confused...
 

soxin6

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So the Red Sox hitters knew what was coming and still couldn't hit? My guess is that they get fined and lose draft picks, but there is no way that this will lead to a loss of victories.
 

budcrew08

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What rule are they accused of breaking exactly? How would relaying information to someone who isn't the current hitter be of help? So confused...
The idea is that if you give the runner which pitch is coming, they can relay it to the hitter.
So for example, Betts is at second after a double. They figure out that X sign is going to be a fastball to the next hitter, for example Devers.
Betts gets the info via some hand signal from the dugout that the X pitch is going to be a fastball, then he can turn around and give some type of signal to Devers that a fastball is coming.
 

shaggydog2000

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Yeah I'll admit that reading this article I'm not entirely on exactly HOW this worked.
So the guy with the camera was filming in a zoom (I assume), and the trainer with an apple watch was able to read signs in real time (on a friggin watch screen?), and then relayed the signs to a player who wasn't playing, and then that guy relayed the signs to a guy at 2nd base (I think?) who relayed the pitch to the batter.

Seems like a really crappy way to figure out a pitch.

Edit: Which doesn't mean they weren't doing it.
 

SouthernBoSox

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How many small, minor items does John Farrell have to fuck up before we realize that his lack of attention to detail makes him an incompetent manger?

Seriously, just fire him. How in the world could he allow something so obvious?
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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So the Red Sox hitters knew what was coming and still couldn't hit? My guess is that they get fined and lose draft picks, but there is no way that this will lead to a loss of victories.
It was while they were at home. They have also filed a similar complaint against the Yankees re: a YES camera that they contend is purely used to record footage to steal signs.
 

Cesar Crespo

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What rule are they accused of breaking exactly? How would relaying information to someone who isn't the current hitter be of help? So confused...
This part of the article says what they did wrong.
Stealing signs is believed to be most effective when there is a runner on second base who can watch what hand signals the catcher is using to communicate with the pitcher and then relay to the batter any clues about what type of pitch may be coming. Such tactics are allowed as long as long as teams do not use any methods beyond their eyes. Binoculars and electronic devices are prohibited to communicate about signs.

In recent years, as cameras have proliferated in major-league ballparks, teams have begun using the abundance of video to help them discern opponents’ signs. Some clubs have had clubhouse attendants quickly relay information to the dugout from personnel monitoring video.

With that approach, the information has to be rushed to the dugout on foot so it can be passed to the runner on second base. The Red Sox seemed to shorten the communication chain — and more quickly get the information to their batters — by sending information electronically to people in the dugout.
 

SayHey

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Sox leadership will have to clean house; either now or in the off season. Otherwise the taint will persist.
 

geoduck no quahog

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So I guess someone is looking at the CF camera's close up of the catcher and getting "FB Low-Outside info? Then relaying that through an Apple device to someone in the dugout. Who then flashes a sign to the guy in the batters box? All in the time it takes between putting down the sign and a windup (I assure you no batter is looking into the dugout during the windup).

The only way I see this working is on a throw to 1B or a pitchout, if the 1B coach has an earpiece or something. Explain to me how electronic sign stealing would work.

If they're doing it, they should be punished.

If every team is doing it, they should have a secure line to a pitcher's earpiece (or vibrator...or something) so that the bench or the catcher can communicate directly to the pitcher without signs and wait for the pitcher to shake it off or pitch.
 

AimingForYoko

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Isn't using electronics in dugouts a specific rule? They're in serious trouble if this is true methinks.
I guess they used the Apple Watch to try to get around this rule since it functions as a watch? Idk

There's something weirdly hilarious about this story but least they admitted it so this doesn't drag out for a jillion years.
 

JohntheBaptist

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The story is already just "Boston Cheats" wherever you look. Here we go again.
Maybe teams from Boston shouldn't do this shit, I dunno.

How many small, minor items does John Farrell have to fuck up before we realize that his lack of attention to detail makes him an incompetent manger?

Seriously, just fire him. How in the world could he allow something so obvious?
This is 100% reason to fire him for sure. This is embarrassing. And it isn't even working!
 

Rusty13

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Jon Jochim is about to be run over by 5 million buses.

Wait...is that LL's music!!
 

Seels

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I don't even care. Fuck the Yankees. There's legitimately no fine or punishment that even matters short of nuking the money available for draft / ifa
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I can't see this going anywhere.
I feel like I heard that before.

People won't care like with the Patriots, because it's baseball and not football. And also, there is sort of this crazy cheating culture in baseball where Sammy Sosa's bat can explode in cork, or Pineda can come out with pine tar all over his neck, and nobody seems to mind all that much. Add in the Patriots stuff, though, and it will become a city thing and I think the story will end up with legs -- there is also the Yankees/Red Sox element.

Still, this is unseemly and we're cheaters, plain and simple. The part where Pedroia gets in on the act is kind of disappointing. Just shitty news to hear when things are already kind of going poorly. I'm really disappointed about this. It's not sporting.
 

Psycho'sPants

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Isn't using electronics in dugouts a specific rule? They're in serious trouble if this is true methinks.
Noted upthread as well, but yes. I attended a presentation with the Brewers' baseball R&D staff last month, and they confirmed this in the context of talking about how they must offload all analytics and advice to the coaching staff pregame and maintain radio silence during play.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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No, the team was using the cameras meant for replays and relaying the signals to the trainer on the watch. Then the trainer gives the info to players.
 

JohntheBaptist

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Stealing signs just seems like so much wasted energy, too. Setting up video, avoiding detection, passing on the information... and you still have to hit it.

It speaks to a general desperation in scoring runs, though, and if this was one of JF's solutions to the offense cratering then fuck him and get his ass gone pronto.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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The idea is that if you give the runner which pitch is coming, they can relay it to the hitter.
So for example, Betts is at second after a double. They figure out that X sign is going to be a fastball to the next hitter, for example Devers.
Betts gets the info via some hand signal from the dugout that the X pitch is going to be a fastball, then he can turn around and give some type of signal to Devers that a fastball is coming.
If the Yankees are letting the runner at 2B steal signs, that's 100% on them. That's as old as baseball. The stats about the Sox going whatever for whatever with a runner on second base are useless.

If the Sox were getting signs to relay to batters from the dugout, which is what this appears to be, then they're in some trouble.
 

TheoShmeo

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Sign stealing in baseball? Accusations and counter accusations? Shocking and shocking.

That said, if this speeds along John Farrell's departure, good.
 

Salem's Lot

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Well this might explain the grotesquely awful ball/strike calls against the Red Sox in NY last series. I'm sure the umps knew about this. They should fire the manager, trainers involved and release Holt & Young. Suspend Pedroia if he was in fact involved.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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They should fire the manager, trainers involved and release Holt & Young. Suspend Pedroia if he was in fact involved.
Why release Holt and Young, but suspend Pedroia? Just curious what the distinction is. Is it because they are not doing well and he's very important to the team?