Spurs 21/22: Conte? Conte!!

Kliq

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I actually really like Tammy Abraham, who is a big, physical forward who was lost in the army of transfers Chelsea have brought in. Kepa can stay where he is. Obviously they'd be paying a ton of cash in addition to those players.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Player exchanges happen about 1/20th of the time they appear in transfer rumors. They’re just exciting to rumor-monger because you can throw more names into the mix.

If that’s what Chelsea’s putting out there then it just means they don’t have the money it’d take.

I do agree that Abraham’s not a bad get if it came to that, but throwing Kepa in there is just hilarious.

Ha, Zomp sliding in with another fantasy player exchange even as I wrap up typing this.
 

Zomp

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Player exchanges happen about 1/20th of the time they appear in transfer rumors. They’re just exciting to rumor-monger because you can throw more names into the mix.

If that’s what Chelsea’s putting out there then it just means they don’t have the money it’d take.

I do agree that Abraham’s not a bad get if it came to that, but throwing Kepa in there is just hilarious.

Ha, Zomp sliding in with another fantasy player exchange even as I wrap up typing this.
Th athletic today said that in most instances you are correct but that Tottenham may want some players this year as A. The market will be tough after covid and B. They want squad additions.

obviously, any players would also come with a lot of cash but I think there may be a chance of coming the other way if Kane moves to a Premier League club.

Put it this way. If Kane is 50/50 to leave I could also see a swap plus cash being 50/50
 

Jimy Hendrix

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I do like that Martial/Henderson swap proposal more than the mooted Chelsea one because neither of those players is an actual negative to a deal the way Kepa is in that rumor. I can't imagine Spurs paying Martial's United salary though for a player of his quality, so there'd be some hurdles to deal with there.
 

DJnVa

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Th athletic today said that in most instances you are correct but that Tottenham may want some players this year as A. The market will be tough after covid and B. They want squad additions.
Here's the article:

Who to trade for Harry Kane – The Athletic

We’re going to imagine a scenario where potential suitors for Kane — Chelsea, Manchester City, Manchester United, Barcelona, Real Madrid and Paris Saint-Germain — are asked to trade players with Tottenham.

Although we don’t believe Kane could require an American-style trade deal on par with Hershel Walker in 1989, he is one of the best strikers around and after another season with club finances affected by games behind closed doors, if a potential deal was stuck for him, it might require some element of player swap. This thought experiment is going to hone in on that element — so where could he end up?

EDIT: And yes, I like Abraham too.
 

DJnVa

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I do agree that Abraham’s not a bad get if it came to that, but throwing Kepa in there is just hilarious.
The Athletic's Chelsea offer was Tammy Abraham, Callum Hudson-Odoi, Ethan Ampadu, Valentino Livramento.
 

tmracht

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The Athletic's Chelsea offer was Tammy Abraham, Callum Hudson-Odoi, Ethan Ampadu, Valentino Livramento.
Tammy much like De Bruyne and Salah and and and has the chance to be someone that Chelsea lets go a year or two too soon. I would hate for it to be to Spurs, but that Kane guy is okay.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Its hard enough to complete one transfer, a swap deal is like doing multiple transfers at the same time but all the stars have to align perfectly and like 10 different decision makers can blow up the deal at any moment. They almost never happen, when they do its usually between clubs of roughly equal stature or attractiveness (ie City-Juve, Juve-Barca), and often involves some kind of shady agent manipulation.

I just don't see any of these ideas being thrown about as very realistic. I don't think most of the players would actually want to move and I'm not sure its in Spurs' interest to take players rather than cash either. This is going to be a great buyer's market, especially buying young high-ceiling talent from broke teams across the continent. Why would they want to take Anthony Martial or Gabriel Jesus as a big part of the compensation package instead of buying multiple younger players on cheaper wages that might not become as good but don't have such limited ceilings?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Tell me if I'm going overboard in piling on here as an Arsenal fan (or feel free to dish it back in the Arsenal thread, God knows there is enough material). But this statement seems to me like Kane pretty much throwing some of his teammates under the bus, saying there aren't leaders in the team and that Jose wanted to win but couldn't build relationships with players who weren't committed enough to winning.

View: https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1395761998621720587
 

coremiller

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Tell me if I'm going overboard in piling on here as an Arsenal fan (or feel free to dish it back in the Arsenal thread, God knows there is enough material). But this statement seems to me like Kane pretty much throwing some of his teammates under the bus, saying there aren't leaders in the team and that Jose wanted to win but couldn't build relationships with players who weren't committed enough to winning.

View: https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1395761998621720587
Yes, that's what he's saying. It's obviously nonsense; as Spurs twitter has repeatedly pointed out today, Spurs have five international captains in their squad (Lloris-France, Kane-England, Aurier-Cote D'Ivoire, Bale-Wales, Son-South Korea), plus Hojbjerg captained Southampton before Spurs bought him. Lack of leaders or leadership was not the problem under Mourinho. Also of course, as the vice-captain, the highest paid player, and one of the team leaders, any failure of leadership falls at Kane's feet as much as anyone else's.

Kane is just repeating Mourinho's narrative, where Mourinho is a winner who cannot fail, he can only be failed by players who aren't winners. Theses quotes could have come straight out of one of Mourinho's press conferences after a loss. It was widely reported that Kane was Mourinho's strongest defender/ally in the dressing room and probably the only reason Mourinho hung on as long as he did. It's clear that Mourinho was very good at buttering up Kane, and as part of Mourinho's classic feuding/divide and conquer strategy, I wouldn't be surprised if Mourinho fed Kane all kinds of nonsense about how the rest of the team was holding Kane back. A lovely parting gift from Mou.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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It does give me pause that two out of five of those aforementioned international captains have absolutely lambasted the team's mentality in interviews or press conferences. The problem this year was more Mou's crappy tactics than not being "winners", I agree there, but I do worry that the stagnation of the squad is attitudinal in addition to just backsliding on a pure talent level.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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And one of the five is Gareth Bale.
Yeah, the captaincy of international teams tends to just go to the best or most famous player and isn't really an indicator of actual leadership. Although Lloris does seem like an exception in that group and perhaps a player that both club and country teammates see as a leader.

Kane's comments might very well be bullshit. But I think what is more notable about them in the present situation is that they complicate the prospect of him staying at Spurs. Taking shots at his teammates is kind of like tying his hands to the wheel in his game of chicken with Levy.
 

67YAZ

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Don’t see why Harry has to air this shit now and now on Monday. Liverpool fans need Spurs played to actually pass Harry the ball against Leicester, maybe set set him for a a goal or three. Now he’s gonna get crosses 10 feet over head all day.
 

scott bankheadcase

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I think this is a pretty big gamble by Kane. He has 3 years left in his contract. Levy is going to ask 150m.

if the transfer doesn’t happen (and I think only city is realistic), he’s right back on this team with no recourse.

I also think if he goes anywhere but city (in England) he is gambling on his legacy as well. He better win something, which isn’t a guarantee anywhere else.
 

DJnVa

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Tell me if I'm going overboard in piling on here as an Arsenal fan (or feel free to dish it back in the Arsenal thread, God knows there is enough material). But this statement seems to me like Kane pretty much throwing some of his teammates under the bus, saying there aren't leaders in the team and that Jose wanted to win but couldn't build relationships with players who weren't committed enough to winning.

View: https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1395761998621720587
Sell him to Roma then.

I mean, YOU'RE the leader Harry. How many does he think they need?
 

coremiller

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Also, since Kane joined Spurs, Spurs have played 10 matches in cup semifinals or finals. Kane has scored only two goals in those matches (he missed some of them through injury), and he hasn't scored in the 3 finals he's played in. And of course, Spurs' greatest ever result (the Miracle of Amsterdam) happened with him on the bench, while 8 current members of the squad played in that game (he also played only 57 minutes in the QF tie against City before going off injured without having scored). Kane didn't score in the World Cup quarters or semis either. How about Kane actually score in a big knockout match before he starts accusing the rest of the team of not being winners?
 

DJnVa

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This Kane discussion is breaking my heart.
Same.

I pretty much exempt him from the whole "want to go win trophies" because of everything he's done. I just don't think he needs to play this the way he is.
 

coremiller

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Same.

I pretty much exempt him from the whole "want to go win trophies" because of everything he's done. I just don't think he needs to play this the way he is.
Yeah, if he just said he was frustrated with management and the direction of the club over the last three years, wanted a new challenge, and wanted to be playing in the CL, I think a lot Spurs supporters would sympathize. I don't remember much antagonism toward Bale when he left, for example. But instead he's shooting himself out of town.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah, if he just said he was frustrated with management and the direction of the club over the last three years, wanted a new challenge, and wanted to be playing in the CL, I think a lot Spurs supporters would sympathize. I don't remember much antagonism toward Bale when he left, for example. But instead he's shooting himself out of town.
Exactly. A quote (which I am sure will eventually happen if he leaves) saying something like "My preference was to win a trophy with Spurs, but right now I think my path is leading me elsewhere. I am Tottenham through and through and I hope to be back here some day" and it sucks, but we move on. We did with Bale. With Modric.

My main anger though is if we start hearing these things from other guys that don't have the track record he does.
 

teddykgb

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He’s probably got to shoot his way out of town given how tough a negotiator Levy supposedly is. It is a lousy situation though you’d really want to hope that it could be handled discreetly but of course Levy will need to make it seem he’s unwilling to sell if he want to maximize value
 

DJnVa

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He’s probably got to shoot his way out of town given how tough a negotiator Levy supposedly is. It is a lousy situation though you’d really want to hope that it could be handled discreetly but of course Levy will need to make it seem he’s unwilling to sell if he want to maximize value
Are you a tough negotiator if all it takes for Kane to get his way is to give some interviews?
 

coremiller

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I think you have to bring Bale back, if he's willing. Dude has points in his pockets.
Yup. He doesn't have the pace and stamina to run up and down on the wring anymore, but the technique and vision are still there. He's really more of a striker now than a wide player, and a darn good one.
 

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I missed the early part of the match (and can't bear to review COYS gamethreads), but no CMs on the bench today? Tanguy? Gio? Moussa? What was going on?
 

coremiller

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I missed the early part of the match (and can't bear to review COYS gamethreads), but no CMs on the bench today? Tanguy? Gio? Moussa? What was going on?
Reportedly N'dombele and Lo Celso were not fit. Supposedly they came down with a case of screwthisbabycoachitis.
 

DJnVa

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There's twitter rumors that the Spurs have their man and hoping to announce within a week.

I want Graham Potter, but I'm thinking it might be bigger name.
 

Kliq

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I missed the early part of the match (and can't bear to review COYS gamethreads), but no CMs on the bench today? Tanguy? Gio? Moussa? What was going on?
They were reportedly not fit.

Realistically it was a weird lineup but actually played pretty well. Leicester scored on two penalties, one of which was particularly dubious, but other than that they really prevented Leicester from creating real chances and created plenty on their own. Winks was not good but Doherty had a pretty good game and had a big hand in setting up the first goal.
 

scott bankheadcase

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They were reportedly not fit.

Realistically it was a weird lineup but actually played pretty well. Leicester scored on two penalties, one of which was particularly dubious, but other than that they really prevented Leicester from creating real chances and created plenty on their own. Winks was not good but Doherty had a pretty good game and had a big hand in setting up the first goal.
and he used Lucas as a midfielder as well. Replaced dele and Spurs were much better after (though that was probably because bale also came on at the same time).
 

Kliq

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and he used Lucas as a midfielder as well. Replaced dele and Spurs were much better after (though that was probably because bale also came on at the same time).
Dele had a good first half and I wish we saw more of him this season than we did. But he did seem to fade in the second half and it was smart to replace him with Lucas.
 

DJnVa

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I still cannot get over the fact that had they simply beaten Leeds and Aston Villa in the last 2 weeks, two teams playing for NOTHING, they'd have finished 4th and in the Champions League.
 

Kliq

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Obviously a lot has to change at the club:

1) They need to find the correct manager who will run the team in a somewhat usual fashion and find the best XI. One of the challenges this season is that the squad rotation across the board was inconsistent and it rarely seemed like players had a chance to spend a lot of time playing with the same players, particularly in the midfield and CB positions, which led to a lot of miscommunications and goals conceded.

2) It was inappropriate but Kane wasn't wrong when he talked about some players not being tough enough and not playing up to their potential. The squad needs to be shaken up and its up to Levy and the new manager to find out which players need to go and who needs to be brought back. There are a few scapegoats like Winks and Sissoko who probably need to go, but the problems extend across the whole club.

3) The team scored a lot of goals this season, second in the league from open play. This was done despite the team finishing 9th in xG. That pretty much tells you the value of Kane and Son, who consistently converted on chances. This was done with an unstable midfield and an often regressive approach to attacking play. Will Kane (and Son) be on this team next year? It looks like that isn't the case, but if they do somehow return, this team should score a lot of goals with a more progressive manager and more stability in the XI.

4) Goalkeeper needs to be figured out if Lloris is really gone. Lloris made a ton of big stops this season and was one of the most valuable players on the team, and there isn't an heir apparent on the roster right now. It is likely whoever is brought in will be a downgrade, which puts even more pressure on the CBs and midfielders to perform at a higher level.

5) Speaking of CB, the combo of Dier/Alderwireled/Sanchez was pretty rough throughout the year. Dier and Sanchez were really mistake-prone, with Dier lacking pace and Sanchez consistently losing forwards on balls that got sent into the box. Part of the problem was again an inconsistent midfield and squad rotation, which produced an incredible number of CB pairings, with Rodan and Tanganga also getting involved at different times. We are a long way removed from Toby and SuperJan just starting every game.

6) The fullbacks were another issue, again with Aurier/Doherty/Reguilon/Davies/Tanganga just rotating around with little consistency. A big part of the problem imo was that Aurier/Doherty/Reguilon are all attack-minded fullbacks and Jose didn't use them like that, which exposed their weaknesses and hid their benefits. Reguilon was generally a pretty strong performer, but had some really rough games that exposed his weaknesses (like his game against Villa). There needs to be some changes with that bunch and also the new manager will have to figure out what combo/style works best with the remaining personnel.

7) Center Midfield is going to see some turnover, with Sissoko likely gone and Winks perhaps right on his heels. GLC and Dele both struggled with fitness and form at different times, although most people still seem to be bullish that GLC is still the man for the job. Ndombele had his moments under Jose but also completely disappeared once Mason took over and you wonder if it is a fitness issue or an attitude issue because it made little sense to keep playing Winks over him. He remains an enigma for the time being. Hojbjerg was one of the best players this season and played every minute of the EPL season, which eventually wore him down, but I think most people agree he's a reliable starter for this squad moving forward. Oliver Skipp had a strong season on loan at Norwich and will be one to watch next season as he could crack the rotation, which would be great because this team needs young players with exciting futures.

8) Wingers were a position of strength this season, with Son having his best season as a professional. Lucas/Lamela provided different things off the bench and were inconsistent, which is to be expected, but they also had plenty of bright moments as well. Lamela is probably gone this summer which will bring an end to a very strange career for him. Lucas showed a lot of versatility this season stepping up as a CAM. He probably remains best as a substitute where his pace and dribbling can help spark the offense. Bergwijn has talent but fell out of favor under Jose and was clearly rusty when Mason worked him back into the lineup. Bale's future seems really uncertain, he seemed to enjoy his time here once Jose went bye-bye and while he isn't the world class player he was at his peak, he still has the kind of skill and class that you just can't find, and had plenty of moments despite inconsistent playing time. Spurs would surely welcome him back, and with Madrid still a tire fire, he doesn't appear to have a lot of options.

9) Kane's future is the huge question mark that will hang over this team until something is decided. Kane was the best player in the EPL this season and kept the team afloat during dark times. He reinvented himself for portions of this season as a deep-lying forward who made plays for others while also somehow managing to win the golden boot. On a team that oftentimes did not want to play attacking football. The team will not be able to find a player to replace his production if he is sold. If he is sold, will that money be immediately be reinvested in the squad during what is expected to be a difficult transfer window? If they sell Kane, they will need to spend a lot of money to shore up multiple spots on the roster to make up for the loss of his impact, and we have seen plenty of teams spend big money unwisely, such as our North London rivals. Navigating the Kane sale will be one thing, but being able to use that money to find the right players is another huge task.

Ultimately, I think the most likely path for Tottenham will be that Kane is sold, a new manager is brought in with a long-term vision, and Spurs sell off some other key players and build a younger squad that might be more of a mid-table side than a UCL side for a few years while they restock. I think Spurs have been in an interesting position since Poch first took over where the team has competed as a legitimate Top 4 side, but lack the spending power to sustain that level for forever and will need to hit the reset button. The Jose move totally backfired and the result was the club forfeited any further chances to win a major trophy with this current incarnation of the team.
 

DJnVa

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Uhhhhh--it's silly season.

Harry Kane's stance on Tottenham transfer exit if Spurs seal Mauricio Pochettino return | Football | Sport | Express.co.uk

According to the Independent, figures at Tottenham are now 'seriously' contemplating bringing Mauricio Pochettino back to the club.

There is a belief that Pochettino has found the Paris Saint-Germain job more strenuous than he expected and could be willing to return to England.

The Independent report Levy thinks fans need an exciting appointment as a gesture to those unhappy with his recent actions, but it doesn't sound like even that will sway Kane's mind.
 

coremiller

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I'm more bullish on the team's future than many because I think Mourinho completely ran the team into the ground, alienating key players while adopting a regressive style of play totally unsuited to most of the squad, I think they will keep both Kane and Son, and I think there is a lot of talent here. If Spurs can get the right manager, who implements a system that actually plays the best players and suits the players' strengths, I think this team can compete for a CL spot next season. Granted, I continue to have extremely rosy views of both N'dombele and Lo Celso, and that hasn't exactly worked out yet two seasons in. Maybe I should be adjusting my priors downward more.

I think Kane will stay for at least another year. I can't see Levy selling him this summer unless someone coughs up a gigantic fee and I don't see that happening. I wouldn't be surprised if he leaves in 2022 though.

Right back and center back are the biggest holes. Lloris has one year left on his contract, I think he stays at least through then. At some point Spurs will need a long-term replacement but that's less of a priority this summer than fixing the backline. Maybe a new manager can get more out of Dier and Sanchez (who were both disappointing this season), and we haven't really seen what Rodon is capable of, but a new right back is definitely required.

They need to sell Sissoko and Winks just so the new manager can't play them.
 

DJnVa

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https://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/mauricio-pochettino-tottenham-20704289

The first is a long-term contract to match a long-term project. The boss would apparently need a deal lasting at least four years, and would want an "armoured link" in the contract to protect against being sacked in the middle of the season.
The second condition would be for Pochettino to enjoy "full powers" over sporting decisions - something he does not currently have at PSG.
 

DJnVa

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Alasdair Gold
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Understand Mauricio Pochettino told PSG towards end of last week that he wanted to leave to return to Tottenham. Situation remains that Spurs have a tough job to get him away from the French club, but there's a real desire from Poch to complete his unfinished business at Spurs.
Aurier wants to go back to PSG. Perhaps he can be involved. Transfermrkt has him valued at 20M.
 

DJnVa

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Spurs leaning toward Conte?






Fabrizio Romano

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#THFC Antonio Conte in advanced talks with Tottenham board about... - Long term contract. - Project, salary, new signings. - Former Juventus Paratici as new director of football. - Official bid made to Paratici but he’ll decide soon. - Conte has never been close to join Real.
 

coremiller

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I'd be very happy with Conte. He has a good claim to being a top-5 manager in the world right now.

I love Poch but I never understood the plan to bring him back -- this is still mostly the same squad that got sick of him and crapped the bed under him 18 months ago, I don't know why it would be different now.

Conte is kind of like what Spurs thought they were getting with Mourinho, in that he's a short term fix who's difficult to work with and ultimately burns bridges, but in the interim he wins things. The problem with Mourinho is that he doesn't actually win things any more, while Conte does. Conte is also much more tactically flexible than Mourinho.

I don't know whether Spurs would win things under Conte, but I am quite sure that even with mostly the same players they will be a much better team under Conte than they were under Mourinho.
 

Kliq

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I'd be very happy with Conte. He has a good claim to being a top-5 manager in the world right now.

I love Poch but I never understood the plan to bring him back -- this is still mostly the same squad that got sick of him and crapped the bed under him 18 months ago, I don't know why it would be different now.

Conte is kind of like what Spurs thought they were getting with Mourinho, in that he's a short term fix who's difficult to work with and ultimately burns bridges, but in the interim he wins things. The problem with Mourinho is that he doesn't actually win things any more, while Conte does. Conte is also much more tactically flexible than Mourinho.

I don't know whether Spurs would win things under Conte, but I am quite sure that even with mostly the same players they will be a much better team under Conte than they were under Mourinho.
That was generally my take as well. There are similarities to Mou, but the big problem with Mou wasn't his attitude, it was that he didn't win and his strategy was clearly outdated and ineffective, and that dates back to his time at United. If Mou was typical Mou asshole, but Spurs were a top team, it wouldn't have been a problem. Conte appears to still be at the top of his game as a manager and has won the EPL relatively recently. I still think the squad is suspect and needs a lot of turnover, but he isn't Mourinho.
 

teddykgb

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Again I think you have to evaluate the team fit to Conte’s wingback system. Spurs are generally light in the fullback department so bringing him in might result in needing to purchase wing backs. Maybe you can get more out of Doherty that way. I think Davinson is pretty good and he’d probably be helped playing a back 3… I can kind of see how the Spurs team would fit
 

coremiller

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Again I think you have to evaluate the team fit to Conte’s wingback system. Spurs are generally light in the fullback department so bringing him in might result in needing to purchase wing backs. Maybe you can get more out of Doherty that way. I think Davinson is pretty good and he’d probably be helped playing a back 3… I can kind of see how the Spurs team would fit
The fit is actually decent. Doherty played as a wingback in a back 3 at Wolves and that role suits him more than as a FB in a back 4. Reguilon and Sessegnon (was out on loan but should be back) are both pacey players who are better going forward than defending in their penalty box. Sessegnon is more naturally a winger than an LB at this stage of his career and the wingback role could really suit him. Some of Sanchez's best performances at Spurs came in his first season playing in a back 3 flanked by Alderweireld and Vertonghen.

Also no matter what system they end up playing, Spurs will need another RB anyway with Aurier out the door.

The tricky part of the 3-5-2 is fitting in all the midfielders and attackers. Dele in particular doesn't have an obvious spot with Kane and Son likely taking the two forward roles.
 

teddykgb

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That assumes Kane stays which I think is a bi assuming but you’re right about Sessegnon I forgot he was only out on loan. I think it’s overall a good fit and Conte has been as good as it gets. There’s no way Spurs can purchase the way he will demand but he has to be the best possible manager you could get this off season absent maybe Ten Haag if you wanted to take a longer view