Sox sign Wacha

cantor44

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Dec 23, 2020
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If they do or don't remains to be seen, but you have indeed concluded that IF THEY don't spend then it becomes legitimate to question ticket prices. While I may not agree with your entire post, this is the only part I chose to question because IMO it's just stupid. Also IMO you need to have a bit of faith in Bloom. You're all over the place when it comes to him. If you don't believe me, go back and read your posts leading up to and after the trade deadline.
Thank you for offering me your opinion that my opinion is stupid. Though it's my opinion that it's stupid to call someone else's opinion stupid. That would make us both stupid. It's nice to have company!

So ... it is possible to fundamentally respect someone, like the job they are doing, but criticize them in certain moments or aspects of their work. That seems kinda basic to me, and to not understand that .. well, I would call it stupid, but I think it's stupid to call other people stupid.

Look, I thought Bloom was too conservative at the deadline, and he's also been shy about contracts. This could be what he is, or it could a prelude to a more aggressive moment. Bloom has been great at adding "value" players like Kiké and Renfroe. He's rebuilding the farm. Super. I like those things! In other respects, like at the deadline, I didn't like what he did as much.

I kinda like, non-ironically, the band Chicago. They have several really fun songs. And they have some really shitty songs too. Does that make me all over the map? Do we have to be entirely FOR or entirely AGAINST? That seems stupid.
 

cantor44

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Yes eventually, but in the mean time Kike and Whitlock were two outstanding signings. Renfroe wasn't half bad either. Perhaps not what most see as top talent but three damn good signings. Another month of Schwarber would have been nice, but remind me again of what he cost? Robles... color me disappointed that he was the best arm that the Sox got at the deadline, but he had his moments. Iglesias anyone? Hell, even Garrett Richards had moments of brilliance when the Sox needed it most.
True enough. Eventually, though, most WS winning teams have a combination of homegrown guys, value add guys, and some stars signed to big contracts. It is a wise GM (or CEO or whatever) that can find that balance. SEE: Theo Epstein.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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True enough. Eventually, though, most WS winning teams have a combination of homegrown guys, value add guys, and some stars signed to big contracts. It is a wise GM (or CEO or whatever) that can find that balance. SEE: Theo Epstein.
I get your point…. But Theo had countless big mistakes. I’ll take it to another thread if requested but I’ll take Bloom at this point over Theo’s full Sox record.
Theo started great- and in a similar fashion- adding Mueller, Millar, Ortiz, etc… at great value- before becoming blinded by the Andersons, Crawfords, Gonzalezes, etc…
Cherington had a similar arc (albeit far more rapid).
I hope Bloom doesn’t follow that later path.
 

YTF

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True enough. Eventually, though, most WS winning teams have a combination of homegrown guys, value add guys, and some stars signed to big contracts. It is a wise GM (or CEO or whatever) that can find that balance. SEE: Theo Epstein.
Is Bloom not wise? Tell me that the Red Sox are not a team composed EXACTLY as you have described here. That Bloom hasn't been here long enough to cultivate homegrown guys isn't his fault, but I believe Boston's minor league system is rated much higher than it was when he took the helm just two short years ago. Value add guys...Hernandez, Renfroe, Whitlock, Arroyo, Pivetta and the promotion of Houck. I think we can both agree that Bloom's done very well with this. Some stars signed to big contracts...Sale, Eovaldi, Martinez. Yep we have some of those as well. Sure Bloom didn't sign any of those guys, but they're here and part of that balance that WE BOTH see as essential and while he's yet to make the big splash it's Bloom who has made HUGE contributions to keeping that balance. Your starting outfield, 2B and 1B (five of your starting eight position players) are here because of Bloom and they fell one game short of a World Series appearance in just his second season here.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I think there’s a general level of uncertainty in the direction that the team is headed. The core of the team is not locked up long term and it’s unclear what Bloom is going to do. Things are murkier with the sudden explosion in the FA marketplace, which the Sox need to play in in the short term due to a lack of tradeable assets.
 

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
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Here's some positivity. I absolutely prefer Wacha over Perez or Richards at the bottom of the rotation.
Agreed. While admittedly drawing on incomplete information, Richards struck me as a bit more hardheaded than the way Wacha is described, in terms of changing an approach.
 

JimD

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Nov 29, 2001
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I think there’s a general level of uncertainty in the direction that the team is headed. The core of the team is not locked up long term and it’s unclear what Bloom is going to do. Things are murkier with the sudden explosion in the FA marketplace, which the Sox need to play in in the short term due to a lack of tradeable assets.
You seem determined to promote a narrative about Bloom's leadership and a pessimistic view of the team's future that is hardly supported by any actual facts. Is Bloom supposed to publish an open letter in the Globe or put up a billboard over the Pike outlining all of his specific plans in order to reassure you? Absence of proof is not proof of absence. The fact that the team hasn't yet resolved the Bogaerts and Devers contracts does not mean those players are following Betts out the door. The Red Sox have the financial resources to ensure that both retire in a Boston uniform if they so choose. I expect that a new Devers contract will be announced before the 2022 season begins, but just because it hasn't been announced yet doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. Rushing into the market and throwing money around to placate the fans and local sports media is almost certainly a fool's game.
 

Rovin Romine

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You seem determined to promote a narrative about Bloom's leadership and a pessimistic view of the team's future that is hardly supported by any actual facts. Is Bloom supposed to publish an open letter in the Globe or put up a billboard over the Pike outlining all of his specific plans in order to reassure you? Absence of proof is not proof of absence. The fact that the team hasn't yet resolved the Bogaerts and Devers contracts does not mean those players are following Betts out the door. The Red Sox have the financial resources to ensure that both retire in a Boston uniform if they so choose. I expect that a new Devers contract will be announced before the 2022 season begins, but just because it hasn't been announced yet doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. Rushing into the market and throwing money around to placate the fans and local sports media is almost certainly a fool's game.
Peak moment captured in this "Don't Fat Shame the Panda" article: https://www.overthemonster.com/2015/2/18/8059831/pablo-sandoval-red-sox-overweight-fat-spring-training-2015

(And our own signing thread on Sandoval is great: https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/red-sox-pablo-sandoval-agree-to-5-year-100-millionish-deal.6747/ )

 
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RedOctober3829

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Jul 19, 2005
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deep inside Guido territory
A source pointed to two factors — there surely were others — that helped the Red Sox believe Wacha was worth the $7 million investment.

  1. The Red Sox saw last year’s uptick in velocity and improved command as indications that Wacha’s health was finally back to normal. This weekend, Wacha talked about better understanding his body and improving his workout routine, and said it’s left him feeling “like a new man.” If that’s the case, it suggests more durability and reliability, which are valuable.
  2. The Red Sox believe there’s room to further optimize Wacha’s pitch mix. It’s not something they got into with him immediately, but it’s going to be addressed. Wacha got quite a bit better late last season by ditching his cutter and adding more curveballs and changeups. There might be more adjustments where that came from, and Wacha’s shown a willingness to make changes.
https://theathletic.com/2987357/2021/11/29/red-sox-laying-low-as-high-end-free-agents-sign-big-contracts-all-around-them/
 

Jimbodandy

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Jan 31, 2006
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around the way
I kinda like, non-ironically, the band Chicago. They have several really fun songs. And they have some really shitty songs too. Does that make me all over the map? Do we have to be entirely FOR or entirely AGAINST? That seems stupid.
No, you should definitely be against the band Chicago. That's a far easier question to answer than Bloom's performance so far.
 

cantor44

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Dec 23, 2020
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Yes eventually, but in the mean time Kike and Whitlock were two outstanding signings. Renfroe wasn't half bad either. Perhaps not what most see as top talent but three damn good signings. Another month of Schwarber would have been nice, but remind me again of what he cost? Robles... color me disappointed that he was the best arm that the Sox got at the deadline, but he had his moments. Iglesias anyone? Hell, even Garrett Richards had moments of brilliance when the Sox needed it most.
Totally. Bloom is crafty at finding quality guys who are undervalued by the industry (and fans like me) ... still these things are not mutually exclusive ... gotta find those guys, have talented young players at the beginning of the pay scale, and then some sure thing stars who may be getting top dollar.... Virtually every Red Sox WS team has had this combination ....
 

cantor44

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Is Bloom not wise? Tell me that the Red Sox are not a team composed EXACTLY as you have described here. That Bloom hasn't been here long enough to cultivate homegrown guys isn't his fault, but I believe Boston's minor league system is rated much higher than it was when he took the helm just two short years ago. Value add guys...Hernandez, Renfroe, Whitlock, Arroyo, Pivetta and the promotion of Houck. I think we can both agree that Bloom's done very well with this. Some stars signed to big contracts...Sale, Eovaldi, Martinez. Yep we have some of those as well. Sure Bloom didn't sign any of those guys, but they're here and part of that balance that WE BOTH see as essential and while he's yet to make the big splash it's Bloom who has made HUGE contributions to keeping that balance. Your starting outfield, 2B and 1B (five of your starting eight position players) are here because of Bloom and they fell one game short of a World Series appearance in just his second season here.
You may be exactly right. The one thing we've yet to see Bloom do is spend. In prospect capital or dollars. I'm not advocating that he wildly spend, mind you. But eventually I hope he becomes more aggressive, without abandoning his ability to find value adds. My question - and it really is an open question - is he:

- being conservative for a while, to build resources back up, and then be aggressive at the right moment (a la Theo and the Cubs)?
- predisposed not to spend, overly cautious of moves that are risky or costly, as a character trait? (remember, all the big money contracts on the team were signed before Bloom arrived)
- purposefully trying to build a team in the model of TB, believing as a matter of philosophy that any big money long term deal is wasteful and a winner can be built without those contracts?

If either of the latter two are true, the team's payroll will gradually fall, maybe into the middle of the pack. I think that would be shame, not because I want the Red Sox to spend wildly and indiscriminately on tons free agents (I don't like teams like that), but because I think money is an advantage they have, and they should use it (wisely).
 

Apisith

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Oct 19, 2007
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You may be exactly right. The one thing we've yet to see Bloom do is spend. In prospect capital or dollars. I'm not advocating that he wildly spend, mind you. But eventually I hope he becomes more aggressive, without abandoning his ability to find value adds. My question - and it really is an open question - is he:

- being conservative for a while, to build resources back up, and then be aggressive at the right moment (a la Theo and the Cubs)?
- predisposed not to spend, overly cautious of moves that are risky or costly, as a character trait? (remember, all the big money contracts on the team were signed before Bloom arrived)
- purposefully trying to build a team in the model of TB, believing as a matter of philosophy that any big money long term deal is wasteful and a winner can be built without those contracts?

If either of the latter two are true, the team's payroll will gradually fall, maybe into the middle of the pack. I think that would be shame, not because I want the Red Sox to spend wildly and indiscriminately on tons free agents (I don't like teams like that), but because I think money is an advantage they have, and they should use it (wisely).
Is there really any chance that our payroll falls back into the middle of the pack? Nothing indicates to me that we won't spend up to the CBT limit (and beyond if necessary). If he can run the team exactly the way TB does and just use money to fix TB's biggest problem. TB's problem is that very often they're forced to trade players that get into their arb years and get close to free agency. What I'm hoping Bloom does is to build a prospect pipeline, avoid big FA deals for now, and spend on players who have just graduated. TB might have the budget for one Wander-type deal. But we should have the budget for 4-5 of those deals. The biggest difficulty is graduating the high-quality level of prospect, but we're beginning to have some high FV type prospects in the system (Mayer, Yorke, Jordan, Casas). Even Houck and Whitlock are guys that we should be thinking about giving long-term deals to if they show they can stick in the rotation. When guys like Mayer graduate, what Bloom needs to do is to get them to commit. $100-150m each within a year or so of their graduation, and lock up 3-4 FA years. Then, we can spend money on short-term deals for FAs (like Scherzer and Verlander) who fit our timeline and don't cripple the payroll long-term.

Obviously this is not easy to do, sometimes guys just aren't willing to sign those kind of deals (Mookie). Even the Dodgers failed with Seager and Buehler. But, this should be the model that Bloom is working towards. The new CBA might affect this if pay is tilted more towards younger players, then you'll be paying closer to market value when they're young and there's less incentive for those players to sign long-term deals. Then there's no option but spending on free agency if you can't graduate prospects.
 

cantor44

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BringBackMo

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Jul 15, 2005
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You may be exactly right. The one thing we've yet to see Bloom do is spend. In prospect capital or dollars. I'm not advocating that he wildly spend, mind you. But eventually I hope he becomes more aggressive, without abandoning his ability to find value adds. My question - and it really is an open question - is he:

- being conservative for a while, to build resources back up, and then be aggressive at the right moment (a la Theo and the Cubs)?
- predisposed not to spend, overly cautious of moves that are risky or costly, as a character trait? (remember, all the big money contracts on the team were signed before Bloom arrived)
- purposefully trying to build a team in the model of TB, believing as a matter of philosophy that any big money long term deal is wasteful and a winner can be built without those contracts?

If either of the latter two are true, the team's payroll will gradually fall, maybe into the middle of the pack. I think that would be shame, not because I want the Red Sox to spend wildly and indiscriminately on tons free agents (I don't like teams like that), but because I think money is an advantage they have, and they should use it (wisely).
Once again:
Bloom has a plan. Bloom is executing that plan in a very disciplined and consistent way.
Bloom is steadily improving the minor league system, steadily improving the 40-man roster, and steadily improving the big league club.
When Bloom believes that the Sox are ready to compete for a title, and the minor league system is sufficiently stocked, the plan calls for him to spend in both money and prospects. We know this because the Red Sox have always spent under John Henry, and we know this because Bloom’s mentor executed a nearly identical plan with the Dodgers. Friedman’s early years in LA were spent rebuilding and preserving assets, and then, when the club was ready to compete…well you know what happened then.

You are of course free to keep expressing your worries that Bloom will not spend, but there is simply nothing to suggest that those concerns are grounded in reality.
 

cantor44

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Once again:
Bloom has a plan. Bloom is executing that plan in a very disciplined and consistent way.
Bloom is steadily improving the minor league system, steadily improving the 40-man roster, and steadily improving the big league club.
When Bloom believes that the Sox are ready to compete for a title, and the minor league system is sufficiently stocked, the plan calls for him to spend in both money and prospects. We know this because the Red Sox have always spent under John Henry, and we know this because Bloom’s mentor executed a nearly identical plan with the Dodgers. Friedman’s early years in LA were spent rebuilding and preserving assets, and then, when the club was ready to compete…well you know what happened then.

You are of course free to keep expressing your worries that Bloom will not spend, but there is simply nothing to suggest that those concerns are grounded in reality.
So, basically "A" to my multiple choice ...