SoSH 2021 AL MVP

AL MVP

  • Carlos Correa, HOU

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jose Ramirez, CLE

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Matt Olson, OAK

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Salvador Perez, KC

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bo Bichette, TOR

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Brandon Lowe, TB

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    165
  • Poll closed .

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,837
Vote.

If I left someone off, name him in thread in bold and we'll count it, but don't vote.
 

mikeford

woolwich!
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2006
29,517
St John's, NL
Gotta be Ohtani unless youre one of the people who think a guys team has to make the playoffs to be worthy of the MVP
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,674
Maine
Voted Ohtani because he's the choice, but I'll third the Devers mention only in that he should be on the poll. I expect he'll be in the 4-6 range in the final balloting.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,767
Hartford, CT
I’m a bit surprised that Guerrero has cleared ten percent of votes here given how sizably Ohtani’s total contributions outpace his. I really don’t get the case for Guerrero here, and don’t tell me about team performance in a sport like baseball as a factor for picking an MVP. The separation between them isn’t as cavernous as the one between Trout and Miggy in 2012, granted, but at least there I could squint and see giving Miggy credit for winning the Triple Crown even if I think that isn’t in and of itself all that relevant to who contributed the most to his team.
 

mauidano

Mai Tais for everyone!
SoSH Member
Aug 21, 2006
35,626
Maui
It won't be even close in the AL. Shohei san should be near-unanimous.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
I’m a bit surprised that Guerrero has cleared ten percent of votes here given how sizably Ohtani’s total contributions outpace his. I really don’t get the case for Guerrero here, and don’t tell me about team performance in a sport like baseball as a factor for picking an MVP. The separation between them isn’t as cavernous as the one between Trout and Miggy in 2012, granted, but at least there I could squint and see giving Miggy credit for winning the Triple Crown even if I think that isn’t in and of itself all that relevant to who contributed the most to his team.
What I've heard others say is that "Ohtani wasn't the best hitter or pitcher in the AL."

I'm with you -- I think those folks are being far too dismissive of someone being among the best hitters and pitchers (his 3.18 ERA was 8th best in the AL among everyone with 120+ IP) in a way that pretty much no one has ever done in the history of the sport, and certainly not since Babe Ruth's 1919, his first BABE RUTH hitting season and his last as a pitcher.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,936
Ohtani has also stolen 26 bases and been caught stealing 10 times. Babe Ruth's best base stealing season was 1921, when he had 17 SB and 13 CS.

Ohtani is clearly MVP for 2021.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,667
I feel bad for people who are struggling to appreciate Ohtani. WAR doesn't do him justice, I think he should have like, 18 WAR this season.
 

Daniel_Son

Member
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May 25, 2021
1,683
San Diego
What I've heard others say is that "Ohtani wasn't the best hitter or pitcher in the AL."

I'm with you -- I think those folks are being far too dismissive of someone being among the best hitters and pitchers (his 3.18 ERA was 8th best in the AL among everyone with 120+ IP) in a way that pretty much no one has ever done in the history of the sport, and certainly not since Babe Ruth's 1919, his first BABE RUTH hitting season and his last as a pitcher.
I'll bite. I understand the historical significance of what he's doing, and I'd certainly have no problem giving him the award for this year - but what do we do with him going forward? If Ohtani comes back next year and has just a "decent" or even a "good" season at the plate (slashes .250, knocks in 10-20 homers), but posts a 3.18 ERA again - or vice versa, has a stellar offensive year but puts up a 5+ ERA, are we going to give him the MVP just because starting pitchers seldom have even competitive offensive seasons?
 
Last edited:

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
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Jan 23, 2009
20,674
Maine
I'll bite. I understand the historical significance of what he's doing, and I'd certainly have no problem giving him the award for this year - but what do we do with him going forward? If Ohtani comes back next year and has just a "decent" or even a "good" season at the plate (slashes .250, knocks in 10-20 homers), but posts a 3.18 ERA again - or vice versa, has a stellar offensive year but puts up a 5+ ERA, are we just going to give him the MVP just because starting pitchers seldom have competitive offensive seasons?
If he has a great year at the plate but a mediocre one on the mound, he's barely a step above a regular DH in that case. DHs have historically gotten short shrift in MVP voting because they don't play defense. I'd expect similar if Ohtani doesn't pitch exceptionally well. Same if he pitches great and hits poorly. He might get Cy Young consideration but pitchers tend to have to be otherworldly or lack competition to be MVP contenders.

I expect that if this season becomes his norm going forward (good to great hitting, good to great pitching), it won't garner him the same kind of MVP support. The novelty will wear off and it would probably take his team reaching the post-season or an otherwise weak class of candidates (e.g. the 2006 MVP) to keep him in the MVP discussion.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
36,684
where the darn libs live
So did Pedro Martinez.
I love Pedro more than some of my own family members.

Pedro never did something like this.

I'm not saying Ohtani is having a better season than 97-03 Pedro. Take your pick -- in 2 of those seasons Pedro had a higher WAR than Ohtani did this year (and in one they tied), but Pedro never did what Ohtani did this year. It's unreal.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,304
I'll bite. I understand the historical significance of what he's doing, and I'd certainly have no problem giving him the award for this year - but what do we do with him going forward? If Ohtani comes back next year and has just a "decent" or even a "good" season at the plate (slashes .250, knocks in 10-20 homers), but posts a 3.18 ERA again - or vice versa, has a stellar offensive year but puts up a 5+ ERA, are we going to give him the MVP just because starting pitchers seldom have even competitive offensive seasons?
If he's pretty easily the best player in baseball yes. If he's not then no he doesn't get the award just because he hits and pitches.

Most years lately in the AL an 8-9 war season (depending on which site you use) wouldn't have been running away with the war lead.
 

axx

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
8,126
I feel bad for people who are struggling to appreciate Ohtani. WAR doesn't do him justice, I think he should have like, 18 WAR this season.
He did only hit .229 in the second half.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
15,667
Ohtani is as if Kyle Tucker and Framber Valdez were the same person. Or Matt Olsen and Frankie Montas. I think he wins it and deserves it. But I agree he won't get it every year. There is a bit of novelty to this, like Westbrook's MVP.
 

Daniel_Son

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2021
1,683
San Diego
If he's pretty easily the best player in baseball yes. If he's not then no he doesn't get the award just because he hits and pitches.

Most years lately in the AL an 8-9 war season (depending on which site you use) wouldn't have been running away with the war lead.
That's what I'm driving at - if someone has an all-time great offensive season, but Ohtani has a pretty good season at the plate and augments with 10 wins, who gets it? How do we define "value" - being the best at one thing, or doing two things very well?

These are mostly rhetorical questions - like I said, Ohtani is certainly deserving of the award this year, but I think it's an interesting discussion for the future.
 

Sad Sam Jones

Member
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May 5, 2017
2,494
Rightly or wrongly, I think Ohtani has set a bar for himself. Even if he posts the highest WAR in the league again next year, if his numbers aren't as good as 2021 it will be held against him and I think a lot of voters will revert back to confusing MVP with the Hank Aaron Award and vote for the biggest offensive performance. Either way, "What happens in the future?" isn't an argument to ignore what he's done this season. I also think it's likely he's going to struggle to stay healthy enough to regularly put up seasons where he's both a top 10 pitcher and top 10 hitter.

That said, he could have been even better if he had Trout hitting behind him most of the season instead of Phil Gosselin… he would have led baseball in home runs in that scenario without a doubt. He didn't have a history as a guy who took a lot of walks, and this year had a 4.9% BB rate in the 38 games before Trout went down, but 18.5% after it (including all 20 of his intentional walks). As great as Vlad Jr's season was, hitting between Springer, Semien, Bichette and Hernandez makes life a hell of a lot easier.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,478
Rogers Park
I feel bad for people who are struggling to appreciate Ohtani. WAR doesn't do him justice, I think he should have like, 18 WAR this season.
This post kind of nails it. Where do you set the replacement level for a two-way player who is both a number 1/1a starter and a middle of the order bat?

Ohtani's season breaks WAR, not just because you have to add his batting and pitching WAR, but because there just aren't replacement players who can assume his unique role.
 

Gdiguy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,231
San Diego, CA
This post kind of nails it. Where do you set the replacement level for a two-way player who is both a number 1/1a starter and a middle of the order bat?

Ohtani's season breaks WAR, not just because you have to add his batting and pitching WAR, but because there just aren't replacement players who can assume his unique role.
I think we need to separate things a bit here - it's phenomenally fun to have a two-way player like that, and since MLB is entertainment, if you're talking about 'value' above replacement then I agree - Ohtani is an incalculably higher draw than the equivalent replacement pitcher + DH.

In terms of on-field baseball value, though, it certainly adds some amount of additional value, but I think we had a discussion a while back about trying to ballpark that - I don't think it's really that high to be honest, because it's basically the WAR value of having an extra roster slot. Which would be hugely valuable if rosters were capped at like 18 or something, but with 26 the amount of value you'd get to add a 27th isn't super high to be honest.

TangoTiger's statement was that value was a 'rounding error' View: https://twitter.com/tangotiger/status/1410118255063207944
, and even the BaseballProspectus convoluted argument about why that wasn't right eventually concludes "And we can start to see how that value can be a few tenths of a win. That’s not huge, but it’s real value." https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/68403/baseball-therapy-the-war-over-ohtanis-value/
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,894
Los Angeles, CA
I think we need to separate things a bit here - it's phenomenally fun to have a two-way player like that, and since MLB is entertainment, if you're talking about 'value' above replacement then I agree - Ohtani is an incalculably higher draw than the equivalent replacement pitcher + DH.

In terms of on-field baseball value, though, it certainly adds some amount of additional value, but I think we had a discussion a while back about trying to ballpark that - I don't think it's really that high to be honest, because it's basically the WAR value of having an extra roster slot. Which would be hugely valuable if rosters were capped at like 18 or something, but with 26 the amount of value you'd get to add a 27th isn't super high to be honest.

TangoTiger's statement was that value was a 'rounding error' View: https://twitter.com/tangotiger/status/1410118255063207944
, and even the BaseballProspectus convoluted argument about why that wasn't right eventually concludes "And we can start to see how that value can be a few tenths of a win. That’s not huge, but it’s real value." https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/68403/baseball-therapy-the-war-over-ohtanis-value/
Yes, I completely agree with this post. Ohtani is amazing, but I don't think WAR is underestimating him very much at all.