Kessler said in the appeal to Goodell that he didn't think a rule about balls appeared anywhere in the rule books (therefore no notice) but that if it appeared anywhere, it was equipment violations. He said he thought it was a stretch because it doesn't say balls -- I remember cringing a bit reading the transcript at that point. Then, later on when they were in front of Berman, he subtly shifted course from "there was no notice" to "if there was notice, it specifically says a fine and not a suspension".Wait, where's that admission?
but not really. All equipment violations (which stickum, jersey alterations, etc all fall under) are schemes of subterfuge unless judges think players just go out and announce that they have something illegal going on to the refs.Scanning the brief they do a pretty good job of attacking what I think is the league's best point--which is that this is way more than an equipment violation, the allegation (if we assume they're true) is essentially that a player was involved in cloak and dagger type operations to commit an equipment violation. Now like most on this thread I think the evidence strongly suggests that nobody actually deflated any footballs--let alone that Brady directed the Dorito dinks to sabotage equipment after the officials checked the equipment--but the activity in question is far more serious than an equipment violation.
If you want to think it's silly point, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think have an underling change the condition of equipment after it's been tested is qualitatively different from just wearing something that isn't allowed (stickum, wrong sized equipment, whatever).but not really. All equipment violations (which stickum, jersey alterations, etc all fall under) are schemes of subterfuge unless judges think players just go out and announce that they have something illegal going on to the refs.
It's a fairly silly point that Brady's is some unprecedented violation different from other equipment violations.
They do check players for stickum and Vaseline on jerseys before games. And guys do things to sneak it past or do it after the check. So I don't see the qualitative difference.If you want to think it's silly point, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think have an underling change the condition of equipment after it's been tested is qualitatively different from just wearing something that isn't allowed (stickum, wrong sized equipment, whatever).
Having people dicking around with equipment taken from the official's locker room doesn't do anything for you? It does for me.They do check players for stickum and Vaseline on jerseys before games. And guys do things to sneak it past or do it after the check. So I don't see the qualitative difference.
And we have shown how little the NFL cares for this in the Jets kicker ball case and the Carolina vs Minnesota case.
Which shows again the NFL's arbitrary and capricious punishments of this activity.
I missed it. Thank you.Isn't it the one in post 1803?
Can someone refresh my memory...despite that transcript didn't Kessler raise the notice issue in his post-hearing brief before Goodell's (most recent, if you count the Vincent as Goodell's) decision? I don't think you've waived it with one line during a transcript passage if you raise it later, particularly with no confirmation-type remark or adequate follow up from the other side.Kessler said in the appeal to Goodell that he didn't think a rule about balls appeared anywhere in the rule books (therefore no notice) but that if it appeared anywhere, it was equipment violations. He said he thought it was a stretch because it doesn't say balls -- I remember cringing a bit reading the transcript at that point. Then, later on when they were in front of Berman, he subtly shifted course from "there was no notice" to "if there was notice, it specifically says a fine and not a suspension".
Huh?So is this game over for Brady?
I think the tricky thing, and what you and edmunddantes are going back and for around, is that while in a general legal sense a 'scheme' or 'conspiracy to' adds weight to the act, on the terms of the NFL rules it does not seem to---the rules don't actually have a prohibition on 'scheme' or 'conspiracy to' other than the underlying violation (which in this case is, if anything, an equipment violation), do they?Having people dicking around with equipment taken from the official's locker room doesn't do anything for you? It does for me.
I completely agree with you about how arbitrary the NFL's system of justice is but that's not a particularly useful lens to use when thinking about how a particular appellate judge will interpret a particular case relating to arbitration. The Second Circuit panel in all likelihood really doesn't want to get into rulings on what constitutes reasonable procedure, what constitutes bias or partiality, etc.
Thank you. Yes. There is no provision or precedent for cheating is okay, light fine, but if you suddenly cheat with others or try to hide it from our procedures (which all cheating is attempting to do by design) that we get to hammer you harder. It's illogical.I think the tricky thing, and what you and edmunddantes are going back and for around, is that while in a general legal sense a 'scheme' or 'conspiracy to' adds weight to the act, on the terms of the NFL rules it does not seem to---the rules don't actually have a prohibition on 'scheme' or 'conspiracy to' other than the underlying violation (which in this case is, if anything, an equipment violation), do they?
It is our position that there is no policy,
4 no precedent, no notice that has ever been given to
5 any player in the NFL that they could be subject to
6 any type of discipline, whether it's conduct
7 detrimental discipline or whether it is under the
8 policy that has been invoked here for being
9 generally aware of something.
9 And in that game, it was found that he had
10 attempted to use unapproved equipment to prep the
11 kick balls, the K-balls prior to the kickoff. And,
12 in fact, he was disciplined by the Vice President of
13 Football Operations, Mr. Ron Hill, okay. And he
14 said because your attempt to use this could be
15 viewed as an attempt to gain a competitive
16 advantage.
17 So what happened? He was suspended for the
18 rest of the season, the equipment person was. The
19 player, the kicker, wasn't even investigated. Why?
20 Because this policy doesn't apply to the player.
21 And, in fact, it's interesting because Mr. Hill was
22 the Vice President of Football Operations.
This highlights the lack of notice about what Brady was being charged with, and the migration of the claim from "generally aware" into "active participant." Kessler never had the opportunity to address that argument, let alone take a position on it, because the NFL never presented this at the hearing.And then it says "Other Uniform Equipment
7 Violations," okay. And it doesn't mention balls at
8 all, but I'm trying to be creative. Was there
9 anything that could possibly apply to this? And
10 what it specifically says under this thing is the
11 first offense will be a fine. That's what it says.
12 This is Mr. Brady's -- we don't believe it
13 did anything, but this would be a first offense even
14 if it came under this policy, which we don't believe
15 this policy applies either, because there is nothing
16 here about the balls. And it's clear Mr. Wells
17 didn't use this policy; he used the other one. But
18 even this policy would have it.
19 And by the way, the fine is $5,512 for the
20 first offense. That's it. That's the only notice
21 that a player has ever had about anything regarding
22 equipment in the players' policy in terms of that.
Yeah, good point. That hearing was like being indicted for aggravated assault, and then convicted of manslaughter (and sentenced for murder one).This highlights the lack of notice about what Brady was being charged with, and the migration of the claim from "generally aware" into "active participant." Kessler never had the opportunity to address that argument, let alone take a position on it, because the NFL never presented this at the hearing.
Clement's claim is that the NFLPA changed its position from "equipment policy doesn't apply" to "equipment policy has to exclusively apply".Wait, I'm missing something...where does Clement say that NFLPA can't raise an argument that was not discussed at the Article 46 hearing?
Clement's claim is that the NFLPA changed its position from "equipment policy doesn't apply" to "equipment policy has to exclusively apply".
Right, Kessler claimed no notice for "general awareness", and so the closest thing for a player are the equipment violations, which stipulate fines for first offenses. It's just so hilarious that Goodell's award was the result of a hearing to contest this finding (from Vincent's discipline letter):I thought the NFLPA has said something to the effect of, "We don't believe this applies BUT EVEN IF IT DID, then the commissioner acted incorrectly..."
That's a powerful analogy*.Knowledge became consent! I sure hope Goodell never has anything to do with a rape inquiry.
You do a nice job here of highlighting the extent to which the original discipline letter punished Brady for a thought crime.Right, Kessler claimed no notice for "general awareness", and so the closest thing for a player are the equipment violations, which stipulate fines for first offenses. It's just so hilarious that Goodell's award was the result of a hearing to contest this finding (from Vincent's discipline letter):
With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.
In defending himself against this allegation, and the outlandish penalty which accompanied it, general awareness became active participation and knowledge became consent. Knowledge became consent! I sure hope Goodell never has anything to do with a rape inquiry.
This excerpt from Goodell reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask of the lawyers here for some time. Don't judges notice when one side in a case repeatedly and somewhat obviously lies or misstates facts? And does that influence their decision?With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.
But he did. See the quoted language in post 1822. In their brief to the district court, the NFL recites the NFLPA having made the argument to the arbitrator (Goodell) and that the arbitrator found it unworthy.he did not give the arbitrator a fair chance to consider the primary argument he makes on appeal.
Yeah, I think you're putting a bit too much weight on the NFL having used some not-particularly-careful language in the district court. Kessler either did or didn't argue it at the hearing. Post 1824 seems to include the relevant hearing transcript portions, and from those, I think Clement is making a fair argument in his brief. I think Steve Dillard makes a good point that it's a double edged sword, and that Kessler's argument really was not a concession that the uniform policy doesn't apply, but an "at most" argument, which is slightly different.But he did. See the quoted language in post 1822. In their brief to the district court, the NFL recites the NFLPA having made the argument to the arbitrator (Goodell) and that the arbitrator found it unworthy.
"Your honor, at the time of the arbitration hearing, my client had been suspended for general awareness of ball tampering. We argued (and still maintain) that it was and is not clear that the equipment tampering policies provided to the players were applicable to those who were 'generally aware' of another's misconduct. Perhaps the NFL would agree with us, because it was only after this hearing that the NFL changed its tune and found my client to have been an active participant in a scheme (an accusation that was not even made in the $5 million Wells report) and because the league has previously chosen to turn a blind eye to a player's general awareness of ball tampering by other individuals. At the hearing it was only appropriate to defend my client against the findings that had already been made by the NFL, not against the whole universe of potential new findings that might emerge.Mr. Kessler, your client did not make the equipment violation argument the same way before the arbitrator as you're making it now, did it? There, you said applying that provision to game balls required you to be "creative" but now you're saying it's so patently obvious that the provision applies to ball as to make it improper for the NFL to deny the equipment violation provision -- as opposed to the conduct detrimental provision -- applies here.