Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

ElUno20

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QUOTE (Gene Conleys Plane Ticket @ May 7 2010, 11:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2952526
Well, you could be right. Depends on whether the "new Cintron" or the "old Cintron" shows up. The new Cintron is a more complete boxer-puncher, who I think could give PWill a lot of problems. The old one is a KO specialist who folds when he's under attack.

'Course, Williams doesn't punch like Margarito and presumably won't be punching with plaster of paris in his gloves.


Yeah you kinda have to give Cintron some slack with the Margarito fights. Getting hit with bricks hurts.
 

Naehring11

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QUOTE (ElUno20 @ May 7 2010, 08:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2953647
Yeah you kinda have to give Cintron some slack with the Margarito fights. Getting hit with bricks hurts.



This is true but Margarito fought a lot of people and they weren't all in tears at the end of their fights.
 

ElUno20

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Yeah the heart factor is an issue because every guy who has lasted to make a serious fight with Pwill had to withstand the onslaught. They had to have some serious heart to hang in there.
 

PrestonBroadus Lives

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Fight of the Year candidate? Seriously though, is it just me or did it look like Cintron dove out of the ring from pretty much every angle?

I'll add this, because I haven't seen it mentioned yet.

Sources: Lennox Lewis let go by HBO

Not a big surprise really, he was never very good at his job. Kind of a shame I guess, anytime I've heard someone talk about him, they'd always say how lucid and intelligent he is away from the camera.
 

Naehring11

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QUOTE (PrestonBroadus Lives @ May 8 2010, 11:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2956119
Fight of the Year candidate? Seriously though, is it just me or did it look like Cintron dove out of the ring from pretty much every angle?



To me it seemed like he thought he was going to bounce of the white rope but it just slid over him. oops...


wow
 

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Well, not much to say about that fight last night. That was the most unsatisfying ending to a boxing match that I've seen in a long time. Cintron's story (I lost the link, will post if I come across it again) is that he simply had the "wind knocked out of him" and just needed a minute to recover. California rules gave him five minutes. But doctors feared that he had a punctured lung and wouldn't let him continue or even take the full five.

Cintron is now screaming bloody murder and saying that he'll quit boxing altogether if the decision isn't overturned.

He kind of has a case, at least for a no-contest. I don't know how you can say that either guy "won" that fight.

In other news, HBO has let Lennox Lewis go as it's "Boxing After Dark" analyst. Reports have it that Freddie Roach is the frontrunner to replace him. But next week on BAD Roach has one of his fighters, Amir Khan, headlining the card, so HBO will probably just go with Bob Papa and Max, which would be OK by me.
 

ElUno20

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Kermit Cintron threatening to retire? Please. Do me a favor, don't do me no favors.

I love how freely he started moving once he was tied up to the stretcher.
 

mclusky

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QUOTE (PrestonBroadus Lives @ May 8 2010, 10:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2956119
Not a big surprise really, he was never very good at his job. Kind of a shame I guess, anytime I've heard someone talk about him, they'd always say how lucid and intelligent he is away from the camera.


I always thought Lewis was actually very lucid and intelligent with his fight analysis except when he is put on the spot. When he was just watching the fight and making comments off-the-cuff, he was often quite insightful.

When he is (was, I guess) doing the stand-up bits pre- or post-fight, or trying to answer some Bob Papa question during a round, he always sounded like an utter moron. I don't know if it was his cadence, his discomfort with the camera, or something else, he just never mastered the art of passing off trite and banal comments as intelligent, something which Larry Merchant has made his career on.
 

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QUOTE (mclusky @ May 10 2010, 01:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2958304
I always thought Lewis was actually very lucid and intelligent with his fight analysis except when he is put on the spot. When he was just watching the fight and making comments off-the-cuff, he was often quite insightful.

When he is (was, I guess) doing the stand-up bits pre- or post-fight, or trying to answer some Bob Papa question during a round, he always sounded like an utter moron. I don't know if it was his cadence, his discomfort with the camera, or something else, he just never mastered the art of passing off trite and banal comments as intelligent, something which Larry Merchant has made his career on.


Apparently, Freddie Roach was given an audition by HBO over the weekend. I liked this idea of bringing back Sugar Ray Leonard, however. That would be a throwback to the days when HBO's boxing franchise was at the top of its game. I wasn't aware that Leonard had been more or less banished from the network for fighting Terry Norris on Showtime, but that was ages ago and it's an entirely new regime at HBO these days. I'd love to see Leonard back in the analyst's seat.
 

Naehring11

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I think Bernard Hopkins would be a good choice. He did a FNF broadcast a year or two ago and sounded pretty good for his first try.
 

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QUOTE (Naehring11 @ May 11 2010, 10:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2960636
I think Bernard Hopkins would be a good choice. He did a FNF broadcast a year or two ago and sounded pretty good for his first try.


Hopkins seems like a natural. And we're talking only about BAD here, not "World Championship Boxing." I don't think Hopkins gets along too well with Lampley and Merchant. But maybe he doesn't get along too well with anybody. He and Kellerman would make a pretty combustible pairing, I think.

Roy Jones was great. His ability to tell you what was going to happen in a fight well before it happened was uncanny (unlike Emanuel Steward, who's the master of the retroactive prediction -- how many times have we heard his say, "This is exactly what I thought would happen!").

Problem with Roy was that he pulled a star trip on HBO and frequently skipped meetings, showed up late etc. Maybe he's been humbled by events in his career since HBO canned him, but I doubt the HBO brass would want to go back there.

My money's on Roach, though I'd love to see Sugar Ray Leonard back.

If HBO really wanted to get creative, though, why not Floyd Mayweather Jr.? It's not as if he fights all that often -- he's in about the same position as Leonard was during his career when Ray was HBO's analyst. He knows boxing inside and out, that's for sure, and he's always interesting to listen to.

Doubt THAT will happen. There's also the possibility that they'll save a few bucks by just leaving the third chair empty for a while.
 

mclusky

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Nate Campbell is another guy who has been very good in a couple of FNF guest spots. Probably not a big enough "name" though.

I never would have come up with the FMJ idea, but it actually makes a lot of sense when you look at the lineage -- Leonard, Foreman, Jones, Lewis -- all guys with high Q ratings. The only obvious obstacle would be Floyd having to soften/lose his "heel" character, and at that point you don't know if he's still as interesting to listen to.

Probably couldn't be worse than Lennox or George, though.
 

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Manny Pacquiao won his congressional election campaign in the Philippines by a landslide, defying the odds. He was up against the political establishment and won.

Bob Arum says this won't affect Manny's next fight which will take place on November 13.

QUOTE
Arum quickly dismissed speculations that with his congressional victory Pacquiao wouldn’t fight again saying “of course he’s going to fight and I always knew he was going to fight and I’m off back to the states and I’m gonna be working very, very hard to make the (Floyd) Mayweather Jr fight because that’s the fight everybody wants to see.”

“If we can’t make that then there are other fights like (Antonio) Margarito and the winner of the Miguel Cotto-Yuri Foreman but absolutely everybody wants to see the Mayweather fight, the congressman wants the Mayweather fight and we are going to get it for him” added Arum.

Arum disclosed that a November 13 is the date when Pacquiao will fight again. He said “I have reserved the date and both the Dallas Cowboys Stadium and MGM Grand in Las Vegas are available . The cable systems and the satellite providers have put the date aside for us, so the table is set. Manny can get sworn in at the end of June, then attend the sessions of Congress in July and as long as he keeps in shape and then he has plenty of time to train for the fight.”


Something tells me that the opponent will be Margarito. I don't think Arum wants the Mayweather fight to happen. There's no point in a rematch with Cotto -- Manny would beat him even worse this time. And Yuri Foreman? Please. That would be a snooze fest, and Foreman doesn't bring much more of a fan base than Clottey did. Maybe less because with Clottey there's at least a puncher's chance. Foreman is like a 154-pound Paulie Malignaggi in the ring, and not nearly as interesting as Paulie out of it.

Anyway, congrats to Congressman Pacquiao, I guess.
 

ElUno20

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Apparently Margarito is new and improved. No longer blocking punches exclusively with his face.
 

PrestonBroadus Lives

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QUOTE (shawnrbu @ May 16 2010, 12:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2970697
I thought so, too, but the younger fighters cruised. Khan showed he is an impressive boxer.



I think it's pretty safe to say after last night that Nate is shot. Those three rounds against Bradley were indicative of his true talent level at this point. I'm not taking anything away from Victor, who looked much more comfortable last night. That bodes well for his future in the sport. I'd like to see him with a little more head movement, seems to be the one physical thing he doesn't do better than average in the ring. He's athletic enough to do it and slipping more punches would make him an absolutely devastating counter-puncher. It could also prevent him from taking a beating to give one out like we saw against Maidana.

Khan was very impressive with his boxing skills. Out of the two fights, I expected this one to be a bit more competetive, not be the complete shutout that it was.

It'll be pretty interesting to see where each guy goes from here in such a loaded division. Neither guy really answered the major question marks that have come up in their respective careers. For Khan, I still don't see him beating the class of the division. He's a good boxer with excellent skills and natural ability but his weak chin will be his undoing against guys with big power like Maidana and Alexander. Ortiz could be a little more interesting to watch, as some guys grow a heart after quitting earlier in their career (Vitali-Lewis 3 years after Vitali-Byrd is a good example of that). Out of the two guys, I think Ortiz still needs more seasoning, but I also think he's the guy with the higher ceiling.
 

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QUOTE (PrestonBroadus Lives @ May 16 2010, 03:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2971238
I think it's pretty safe to say after last night that Nate is shot. Those three rounds against Bradley were indicative of his true talent level at this point. I'm not taking anything away from Victor, who looked much more comfortable last night. That bodes well for his future in the sport. I'd like to see him with a little more head movement, seems to be the one physical thing he doesn't do better than average in the ring. He's athletic enough to do it and slipping more punches would make him an absolutely devastating counter-puncher. It could also prevent him from taking a beating to give one out like we saw against Maidana.

Khan was very impressive with his boxing skills. Out of the two fights, I expected this one to be a bit more competetive, not be the complete shutout that it was.

It'll be pretty interesting to see where each guy goes from here in such a loaded division. Neither guy really answered the major question marks that have come up in their respective careers. For Khan, I still don't see him beating the class of the division. He's a good boxer with excellent skills and natural ability but his weak chin will be his undoing against guys with big power like Maidana and Alexander. Ortiz could be a little more interesting to watch, as some guys grow a heart after quitting earlier in their career (Vitali-Lewis 3 years after Vitali-Byrd is a good example of that). Out of the two guys, I think Ortiz still needs more seasoning, but I also think he's the guy with the higher ceiling.


I was very impressed with Khan. I knew he'd beat Malignaggi, but I thought it would be a more competitive "high speed chess match" as Max Kellerman likes to say. Kellerman continually raised the issue of Khan's "suspect chin" and wondered how he'd do against a heavy hitter like Marcos Maidana. But to me, one fluke knockout doesn't necessarily indicate a "suspect chin." Khan got very sloppy in that fight and got hit with a shot on the chin that would have flattened anyone. I think Khan might have just as easy a time against a punching machine like Maidana as he did against Malignaggi. His defense is good and his hands are super fast and highly accurate. That's a Mayweather-like talent set (not saying Khan is, or will be, on Mayweather's level, but he has the same tools). I don't think the conventional wisdom of "pressure him" will work much better against Khan than against Mayweather.

Also, I liked the two-announcer format. I'm fine with HBO leaving the "boxing pro" chair vacant until and unless they find the exact right guy. Like, say, Antonio Tarver who over on Showtime has been doing a hell of a job, getting better every time I hear him.

EDIT: And in other news, Max Kellerman adds to his resume by getting hired as a commentator on CNN's "American Morning."
 

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QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ May 20 2010, 12:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2980085
Can't say I'm that excited about Marquez-Vazquez IV this weekend. Haven't these guys inflicted enough damage on each other already?


I felt that way, too, at first. But as the fight draws closer I find I'm getting psyched for it. If nothing else, after some pretty dull or at least one-sided fights lately, you know that these two will always put on a fantastic show, trading shot for shot the whole way.

And while their skills have certainly eroded, that can make for an even more entertaining fight, in the vein of Ali-Frazier III. There's the also the added drama of Marquez badly needing this win for his legacy, or if he plans to continue his career with any more meaningful fights. It wasn't too long ago that he was considered a top 5 pound-for-pound guy. Even after the second Vasquez fight was was still generally ranked in the Top 10. Now, you never hear his name even in the conversation. He needs this win.
 

ElUno20

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On the boxing commentator topic, I think the best guy out there is currently employed by Showtime. That would be Antonio Tarver.
 

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QUOTE (shawnrbu @ May 22 2010, 11:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2984125
Did the clash of heads change the entire fight or was Marquez dominating throughout the abbreviated fight?


Marquez was clearly the better fighter at this stage of their careers. I'm afraid Vasquez is done. Great career, but he looked a little slow and those cuts are brutal. The really bad cut (left eye) opened from a punch and it opened very easily.

Marquez on the other hand seemed as sharp as ever, or nearly so. I would love to see him give Vic Darchinyan a boxing lesson, though it's a huge leap up in weight for Darchinyan. A fight with Juan Manuel Lopez would be exciting, though I think Marquez might have slowed down a bit too much to compete with an energetic young hotshot like Lopez.

Anyway, even apart from Vasquez's eye injuries, I'm not sure a fifth fight between these two is all that attractive. Vaquez has just slipped much further than Marquez. This fight was an anticlimax and I'd worry that a fifth fight would end up as a one-sided beat down.
 

BGrif21125

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The thing that blew me away was how bad Vazquez's face looked.... before the fight even started. I don't want to go so far as to say I didn't recognize him, but his face was noticeably disfigured from all the previous punishment and surgeries. He looked awful.
 

BGrif21125

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P.S. Just took a look at the summer schedule, and there really isn't too much to be excited about.

Marquez-Diaz was an amazing fight the first time around, but the rematch shouldn't be on PPV, and a part of me thinks that Diaz has mailed it in at this point.

Dawson-Pascal is a good title fight in August that could always fall apart due to Pascal's frequent injuries.

Other than that, not much else. It's really up to the fall schedule to make or break 2010. Mayweather-Pacquiao, Klitschko-Haye, Williams-Martinez II, something good at 140 between Bradley/Alexander/Khan, Stage 3 of the Super Six, etc.
 

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I, for one (and probably the only one), am looking forward to this weekends fight with Cotto vs Foreman. I am really intrigued as to see how Miguel has adapted to his new trainer. If Cotto has picked up as much as Steward has indicated that he has. I am really hoping that Steward has broken Cotto's habit of leaning in with his head when anticipating a punch. Which, in turn, leads to Cotto eating some devastating uppercuts. I am also looking forward to see if Cotto will start to try to feature the jab that he used early (with some effectiveness) against Manny Pacquiao. I am also quite interested in seeing how Cotto handles the heavier weight and how fighting a bigger man will affect him.

If Foreman can win this fight, it may set him up for some bigger paydays. I think Cotto wins this fight by UD. However, Cotto has to win convincingly to try to prove a majority of the skeptics wrong. IF he [Cotto] should win convincingly it may have some of the skeptics realize that he is still a very good fighter and has something left in the tank. Winning a title may cement in many people's mind that Cotto is a future HoF'er.
 

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QUOTE (allaboutthesox @ Jun 1 2010, 07:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2999063
I, for one (and probably the only one), am looking forward to this weekends fight with Cotto vs Foreman. I am really intrigued as to see how Miguel has adapted to his new trainer. If Cotto has picked up as much as Steward has indicated that he has. I am really hoping that Steward has broken Cotto's habit of leaning in with his head when anticipating a punch. Which, in turn, leads to Cotto eating some devastating uppercuts. I am also looking forward to see if Cotto will start to try to feature the jab that he used early (with some effectiveness) against Manny Pacquiao. I am also quite interested in seeing how Cotto handles the heavier weight and how fighting a bigger man will affect him.

If Foreman can win this fight, it may set him up for some bigger paydays. I think Cotto wins this fight by UD. However, Cotto has to win convincingly to try to prove a majority of the skeptics wrong. IF he [Cotto] should win convincingly it may have some of the skeptics realize that he is still a very good fighter and has something left in the tank. Winning a title may cement in many people's mind that Cotto is a future HoF'er.


I'm becoming somewhat more intrigued as the fight draws closer. Though let's face it, the reason this fight was made had nothing to do with the matchup itself and everything to do with each fighter having a significant New York constituency. Though I'm not sure how many Jewish fight fans are left, but Foreman can hopefully rekindle their interest.

I think that this will be a difficult fight for Cotto to win. Foreman is a pure boxer and he has enormous height and reach advantages over Cotto, as well as the size advantage of being a natural 154-pounder. If Cotto can somehow work underneath Foreman's jab and get to his body, that would turn the fight in his favor, or it could, anyway. I'm not sure how he's going to be able to do that. Also, while Cotto was always a heavy, thudding "wear-you-down" type of puncher, he was never a big KO artist. And now he's up at 154 AND facing a guy he's going to have lunge at just to reach his chin. So can Cotto hurt Foreman even if he can get close? I don't know. I'm skeptical.

As for Emanuel Steward, I'm not really blown away by his abilities to work magic on fighters. His specialty over the past couple of decades has been taking very tall heavyweights -- Lewis and W. Klitschko -- and teaching them how to use their height and reach advantages. He hasn't had a lot of success in the lower divisions. His stint with Jermaine Taylor was a huge bust. Before that he had a junior welter named Vivian Harris who flamed out spectacularly. His prize middleweight prospect Andy Lee got stopped in an ESPN fight against a "Contender" cast member named Brian Vera. And so on. I don't see any reason why he and Cotto should make some magical pairing. Steward's biggest success in the lower weights, the great Thomas Hearns, was a tall, rangy welterweight/middleweight. Pretty much the opposite of Cotto -- who reminds me more of Marvin Hagler.

Foreman is a cautious, safety-first, stick-and-move fighter. So I don't think this fight is going to be a thrill-a-minute affair. Still, should be interesting, at least a little.
 

allaboutthesox

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QUOTE (Gene Conleys Plane Ticket @ Jun 4 2010, 10:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3004852
I'm becoming somewhat more intrigued as the fight draws closer. Though let's face it, the reason this fight was made had nothing to do with the matchup itself and everything to do with each fighter having a significant New York constituency. Though I'm not sure how many Jewish fight fans are left, but Foreman can hopefully rekindle their interest.

I think that this will be a difficult fight for Cotto to win. Foreman is a pure boxer and he has enormous height and reach advantages over Cotto, as well as the size advantage of being a natural 154-pounder. If Cotto can somehow work underneath Foreman's jab and get to his body, that would turn the fight in his favor, or it could, anyway. I'm not sure how he's going to be able to do that. Also, while Cotto was always a heavy, thudding "wear-you-down" type of puncher, he was never a big KO artist. And now he's up at 154 AND facing a guy he's going to have lunge at just to reach his chin. So can Cotto hurt Foreman even if he can get close? I don't know. I'm skeptical.

As for Emanuel Steward, I'm not really blown away by his abilities to work magic on fighters. His specialty over the past couple of decades has been taking very tall heavyweights -- Lewis and W. Klitschko -- and teaching them how to use their height and reach advantages. He hasn't had a lot of success in the lower divisions. His stint with Jermaine Taylor was a huge bust. Before that he had a junior welter named Vivian Harris who flamed out spectacularly. His prize middleweight prospect Andy Lee got stopped in an ESPN fight against a "Contender" cast member named Brian Vera. And so on. I don't see any reason why he and Cotto should make some magical pairing. Steward's biggest success in the lower weights, the great Thomas Hearns, was a tall, rangy welterweight/middleweight. Pretty much the opposite of Cotto -- who reminds me more of Marvin Hagler.

Foreman is a cautious, safety-first, stick-and-move fighter. So I don't think this fight is going to be a thrill-a-minute affair. Still, should be interesting, at least a little.



Well, Cotto won the fight by TKO. Granted Foreman was operating on a bad leg by the sixth round, but Cotto was well in control before that point. Cotto seemed a bit tentative to unload the right as much as he could have. It was nice to see that Cotto went to the body more and starting using the jab again. I also liked the fact that he closed his block and closed the uppercut hole he had in it. In the early rounds Cotto was standing straight up more instead of being hunched over and trying to get inside all the time.

The reach factor was not as big of a deal as I thought it would have been. Cotto seemed to sense that he could handle Foreman's best shot and started coming more forward from about round 5 and on. Foreman hit Cotto pretty hard in the fourth round and Cotto withstood the shot. Cotto continued to press the fight more and made more of an effort to jab and go to the body of Foreman, which by round 9 would be Foreman's undoing. At some point I almost wondered if Cotto was going to use his right at all. In the early rounds Cotto staggered Foreman with some nice clean shots. The body shot that put Foreman on the canvas was just brutal. If one watches it in slow motion, one can see the shot travel across Foreman's body. It reminded me of the KO from Pacquiao vs Hatton. Obviously, that [Pacman vs Hatton] was a headshot, but my reference is more about how one can see the shot travel through the body and the damage it does.

Emmanual Steward did a good job with trying to get Cotto back into some form of a boxer rather than a brawler. As Jim Lampley had mentioned during the fight, Cotto's footwork was better. However, I would have liked to see him move his head around a bit more. Around round 4 Cotto started to go back to some of his bad habits but quickly worked his way back into form. I think at this point if Steward can break Cotto's bad habits, one has to consider what he has done with Miguel as a success. Cotto still has some things he will need to fix up, but overall I am pleased with his performance. Steward may not have a great track record with the lower weight divisions, but he has done well just trying to get Cotto to get back into form.

As for Foreman, the guy is all heart and my hats off to him. I hate that his knee buckled, but the fact that he didn't take the full 5 minutes that was offered and continued on says volumes about him. I am just not sure where Foreman goes from here. As for Cotto, I am not sure either. He is kind of stuck in "no mans land" as he seems to be a bit short for the Junior Middleweight Division, but not a welterweight anymore either. I do think that having a more reputable trainer helped as well. I am really interested to see how Cotto does from here on in. None the less, Cotto is now a four time champion in three weight classes.
 

ElUno20

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As everyone who watched I was impressed with Foreman's toughness. As impressive was Arthur Mercante Jr. A ref with some logic and sense of awareness? Whaaaaa?

Cotto should stick at 154 and stick with Manny as his trainer. He looked better physically at the weight and made some serious improvements last night. Although one thing that jumped out at me was around the 4-5 round he forgot about his jab which is his 2nd best weapon.
 

mclusky

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QUOTE (ElUno20 @ Jun 6 2010, 10:05 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3006981
As everyone who watched I was impressed with Foreman's toughness. As impressive was Arthur Mercante Jr. A ref with some logic and sense of awareness? Whaaaaa?

Cotto should stick at 154 and stick with Manny as his trainer. He looked better physically at the weight and made some serious improvements last night. Although one thing that jumped out at me was around the 4-5 round he forgot about his jab which is his 2nd best weapon.


The thing that jumped out at me was that Cotto's face again looked like a piece of raw steak after the fight even though he was in against a guy with no power and one leg. Cotto has a great chin, but he'd be better if he didn't display that fact so often.
 

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QUOTE (mclusky @ Jun 6 2010, 01:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3007235
The thing that jumped out at me was that Cotto's face again looked like a piece of raw steak after the fight even though he was in against a guy with no power and one leg. Cotto has a great chin, but he'd be better if he didn't display that fact so often.


I watched the whole post fight interviews and didn't notice anything like what you mentioned. He did gt caught flush with a straight right from Foreman in the fourth round. If you have ever been hit in the face flush, it doesn't take that much to get your face to react to such a shot. If Cotto's face was the one thing that jumped out at you, then you missed a pretty good fight.
 

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QUOTE (allaboutthesox @ Jun 6 2010, 04:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3007668
I watched the whole post fight interviews and didn't notice anything like what you mentioned. He did gt caught flush with a straight right from Foreman in the fourth round. If you have ever been hit in the face flush, it doesn't take that much to get your face to react to such a shot. If Cotto's face was the one thing that jumped out at you, then you missed a pretty good fight.


I also thought Cotto got tagged a bit too often. Maybe he just didn't care because even a two-legged Yuri can't punch his way out of paper bag, but given his history, it just seemed to me that his defensive liabilities are as bad as ever. Overall, I wasn't overly impressed with Cotto. Foreman's handspeed overmatched him but of course, that only happened when Foreman chose to throw a few punches. And even when Foreman was hobbling around on one leg, it still took Cotto another round to stop him -- and then with a body shot. On the whole, this bout was a testament more to Top Rank's inspired matchmaking than to any progress Cotto has made under Emanuel Steward.

I don't see a bright future for Cotto at 154, or even at 147 at this point. I think he's on the downhill side and sliding. At 154, who's he going to fight? Sergio Martinez make him look silly. Paul Williams would batter him into oblivion. I expect Bob Arum has a rematch with Margarito in mind at 154, which would basically be Arum's cash-out on both fighters. But then again, Arum will also likely match Margarito with Pacquiao in November or December, unless a miracle happens and the Mayweather fight comes through. So that would likely by the cash-out on Margarito.

Cotto could fight Alfredo Angulo at 154. That would be a pretty good scrap and would have the coveted (by promoters) Puerto Rico v. Mexico angle. But that's not the "big name" fight that Cotto said he wanted now.

As for Yuri, he may have one payday left based on his gutsy showing in this fight, but I have the feeling he's going to need knee surgery, so by the time he's ready to fight again, that glow may have worn off. Otherwise, I dount he'll ever be more than a local New York attraction. Which is too bad because he's obviously a very likable guy with a lot of heart and a great back story. But his style is not "TV Friendly" and he can't punch. So where does that leave him?
 

mclusky

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QUOTE (Gene Conleys Plane Ticket @ Jun 7 2010, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3010044
I also thought Cotto got tagged a bit too often. Maybe he just didn't care because even a two-legged Yuri can't punch his way out of paper bag, but given his history, it just seemed to me that his defensive liabilities are as bad as ever. Overall, I wasn't overly impressed with Cotto. Foreman's handspeed overmatched him but of course, that only happened when Foreman chose to throw a few punches. And even when Foreman was hobbling around on one leg, it still took Cotto another round to stop him -- and then with a body shot. On the whole, this bout was a testament more to Top Rank's inspired matchmaking than to any progress Cotto has made under Emanuel Steward.

I don't see a bright future for Cotto at 154, or even at 147 at this point. I think he's on the downhill side and sliding. At 154, who's he going to fight? Sergio Martinez make him look silly. Paul Williams would batter him into oblivion. I expect Bob Arum has a rematch with Margarito in mind at 154, which would basically be Arum's cash-out on both fighters. But then again, Arum will also likely match Margarito with Pacquiao in November or December, unless a miracle happens and the Mayweather fight comes through. So that would likely by the cash-out on Margarito.

Cotto could fight Alfredo Angulo at 154. That would be a pretty good scrap and would have the coveted (by promoters) Puerto Rico v. Mexico angle. But that's not the "big name" fight that Cotto said he wanted now.

As for Yuri, he may have one payday left based on his gutsy showing in this fight, but I have the feeling he's going to need knee surgery, so by the time he's ready to fight again, that glow may have worn off. Otherwise, I dount he'll ever be more than a local New York attraction. Which is too bad because he's obviously a very likable guy with a lot of heart and a great back story. But his style is not "TV Friendly" and he can't punch. So where does that leave him?


Kudos to GCPT for fully articulating what I was too uninspired to type up yesterday. Completely agree with that analysis. I'm happy for the Cotto fans who got to see their man come out on the winning end in fine fashion, but likewise I think his future prospects are limited and his style is aging him fast. If this were 5 years ago he could call out Oscar De La Hoya, but the golden goose is retired.

Remember what a fantastic welterweight crop we had in '07-'08? What happened? Three years later and we didn't really get one classic fight out of the whole lot, nor did anyone really stamp out a legacy for themselves. Mayweather's still the best but is obviously bored with the sport, Margarito's a cheater, Andre Berto is going on three years of fighting gatekeeper-types. Cotto and Mosley, legacy and recognition-wise, haven't done much more than tread water since then. I guess the default is to blame the promoters.
 

allaboutthesox

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QUOTE (Gene Conleys Plane Ticket @ Jun 7 2010, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3010044
I also thought Cotto got tagged a bit too often. Maybe he just didn't care because even a two-legged Yuri can't punch his way out of paper bag, but given his history, it just seemed to me that his defensive liabilities are as bad as ever. Overall, I wasn't overly impressed with Cotto. Foreman's handspeed overmatched him but of course, that only happened when Foreman chose to throw a few punches. And even when Foreman was hobbling around on one leg, it still took Cotto another round to stop him -- and then with a body shot. On the whole, this bout was a testament more to Top Rank's inspired matchmaking than to any progress Cotto has made under Emanuel Steward.

I don't see a bright future for Cotto at 154, or even at 147 at this point. I think he's on the downhill side and sliding. At 154, who's he going to fight? Sergio Martinez make him look silly. Paul Williams would batter him into oblivion. I expect Bob Arum has a rematch with Margarito in mind at 154, which would basically be Arum's cash-out on both fighters. But then again, Arum will also likely match Margarito with Pacquiao in November or December, unless a miracle happens and the Mayweather fight comes through. So that would likely by the cash-out on Margarito.

Cotto could fight Alfredo Angulo at 154. That would be a pretty good scrap and would have the coveted (by promoters) Puerto Rico v. Mexico angle. But that's not the "big name" fight that Cotto said he wanted now.

As for Yuri, he may have one payday left based on his gutsy showing in this fight, but I have the feeling he's going to need knee surgery, so by the time he's ready to fight again, that glow may have worn off. Otherwise, I dount he'll ever be more than a local New York attraction. Which is too bad because he's obviously a very likable guy with a lot of heart and a great back story. But his style is not "TV Friendly" and he can't punch. So where does that leave him?


Cotto had a total of 3 months to train with Steward and did make some strides. I am just not sure how much anyone should expect when there were at least 2 years of bad habits to work against. Cotto stood more upright and in the early rounds and his defense was much better than in previous fights. Am I saying that his defense was outstanding? No, but Cotto has never been a very good defensive fights. However, he has made progress and did better. I am not aware of the Foreman handspeed that you are alluding to, but I think Cotto stood in front of Foreman as to have him throw punches. Foreman spent a bulk of the fight back pedaling on the outside of the ring. As far as Cotto taking another round to stop him, Steward was pretty adamant that Cotto still proceed very cautiously and Cotto adhered to that.

I am not even sure if you read my post after the fight in which I made mention:

QUOTE
As for Cotto, I am not sure either. He is kind of stuck in "no mans land" as he seems to be a bit short for the Junior Middleweight Division, but not a welterweight anymore either. I do think that having a more reputable trainer helped as well. I am really interested to see how Cotto does from here on in. None the less, Cotto is now a four time champion in three weight classes.


I agree that Cotto is in a tough position as far as which way to go. I think there are very few fights actually out there for Cotto at either 147 or 154lbs. I think that he will inevitably stay at 154 and try to pick up one or two more paydays before retiring. It is plain to see that the Margarito fight took a lot out of Cotto and he never fully recovered. Whether that was psychological or physical we can all speculate. I think it is a combination of both. Cotto was a top of his game and ended up losing his first fight to someone who (more than likely) cheated to beat him. Then follow that up with a cupcake fight and two very demanding fights, which the latter two he had basically no real trainer, and you get what you see now out of Cotto. A fighter who seems to be at a point who wants to be what he was, but no longer is.

I am a Cotto fan through and through and I am interested as to where he goes from here. I think that Cotto may be on the downside of his career, but he has had a good run and still doesn't get near the credit he deserves for his whole body of work. I think in time, most real fans will look back in time and have a better appreciation of all the fighters in the welterweight class during this time period. Right now some can't see anything else but Mayweather and Pacquiao.
 

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QUOTE (mclusky @ Jun 7 2010, 12:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3010105
Kudos to GCPT for fully articulating what I was too uninspired to type up yesterday. Completely agree with that analysis. I'm happy for the Cotto fans who got to see their man come out on the winning end in fine fashion, but likewise I think his future prospects are limited and his style is aging him fast. If this were 5 years ago he could call out Oscar De La Hoya, but the golden goose is retired.

Remember what a fantastic welterweight crop we had in '07-'08? What happened? Three years later and we didn't really get one classic fight out of the whole lot, nor did anyone really stamp out a legacy for themselves. Mayweather's still the best but is obviously bored with the sport, Margarito's a cheater, Andre Berto is going on three years of fighting gatekeeper-types. Cotto and Mosley, legacy and recognition-wise, haven't done much more than tread water since then. I guess the default is to blame the promoters.


Bolded Comments

I guess my question would be: What did you expect of Cotto after the 2008 loss to Margarito? He went out and fought for the vacant title (WBO vs Jennings) and was scheduled to fight for the IBF belt (stripped of Clottey before the Cotto fight) versus Clottey and took on Manny Pacquiao. Mosley didn't want to fight Cotto again. Mosley was too busy trying to get Mayweather or Pacquiao in the ring with him. Mayweather came out of retirement well after the Clottey fight. So, who was available that wanted to fight Cotto?

How did Cotto not create a legacy for himself? Cotto fought many fighters that were quality fighters and won. Demarcus Corley, Branco, Malignaggi, Quintana, Urkal, Judah, Mosley, and Clottey to name a few. I am just not sure what more Cotto could have done to stamp out a legacy. He fought all comers and gave his all every fight he was in.I guess it really doesn't matter in the end, to each his own and I respect your opinion. Maybe I am just being blinded by the fact I am a Cotto fan. I can concede that.
 

mclusky

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QUOTE (allaboutthesox @ Jun 8 2010, 07:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3012634
Bolded Comments

I guess my question would be: What did you expect of Cotto after the 2008 loss to Margarito? He went out and fought for the vacant title (WBO vs Jennings) and was scheduled to fight for the IBF belt (stripped of Clottey before the Cotto fight) versus Clottey and took on Manny Pacquiao. Mosley didn't want to fight Cotto again. Mosley was too busy trying to get Mayweather or Pacquiao in the ring with him. Mayweather came out of retirement well after the Clottey fight. So, who was available that wanted to fight Cotto?

How did Cotto not create a legacy for himself? Cotto fought many fighters that were quality fighters and won. Demarcus Corley, Branco, Malignaggi, Quintana, Urkal, Judah, Mosley, and Clottey to name a few. I am just not sure what more Cotto could have done to stamp out a legacy. He fought all comers and gave his all every fight he was in.I guess it really doesn't matter in the end, to each his own and I respect your opinion. Maybe I am just being blinded by the fact I am a Cotto fan. I can concede that.


Oh, I didn't intend that as a slight on Cotto or his choice of opponents, not at all. I mean that legacy-wise, Cotto hasn't really progressed since the Mosley win. His stature was established after the dismantlings of Malignaggi and Quintana, and solid wins over Judah and Mosley. But more and more, it looks like the Mosley fight will have been the apex of his career.

And that's still a hell of a career, but that night it seemed like just the beginning.

Margarito's cheating really damaged three legacies -- his own, Mosley's and Cotto's. Margarito getting exposed destroyed his own reputation and took some of the luster off Mosley's win over him, but didn't erase the damage to Cotto's career for losing to him either. Pure poison.
 

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I thought Cotto looked OK. I mean, he did what he was supposed to do... break down an inferior opponent without a lot of power or experience on the big stage.

I'd like to see Cotto-Angulo, but that might not bring the paycheck Cotto is looking for. I wouldn't rule out Cotto-Mosley II, both guys need an opponent. And of course, Cotto-Margarito II is always out there if Pacquiao doesn't need Margarito as an opponent.

I don't think Cotto is done, but I don't see him as long for this game either. In some ways, Cotto reminds me of one of my favorite fighters, Erik Morales. A lot of grueling fights against top opponents, a lot of accumulated damage from cuts/bruises/swelling, some struggles over the years with making weight, etc. Those guys don't do much past the age of 30.
 

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QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 9 2010, 10:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3014556
I thought Cotto looked OK. I mean, he did what he was supposed to do... break down an inferior opponent without a lot of power or experience on the big stage.

I'd like to see Cotto-Angulo, but that might not bring the paycheck Cotto is looking for. I wouldn't rule out Cotto-Mosley II, both guys need an opponent. And of course, Cotto-Margarito II is always out there if Pacquiao doesn't need Margarito as an opponent.

I don't think Cotto is done, but I don't see him as long for this game either. In some ways, Cotto reminds me of one of my favorite fighters, Erik Morales. A lot of grueling fights against top opponents, a lot of accumulated damage from cuts/bruises/swelling, some struggles over the years with making weight, etc. Those guys don't do much past the age of 30.


Yeah, Cotto-Mosely II is a possibility and could actually be a terrific fight in the tradition of Ali-Frazier III, on which two action fighters with still very good but declining skills go at it life-or-death for pure bragging rights.

However, I sort of think Mosely is going to retire. For years he's been proclaiming himself, without too much exaggeration, the best fighter in the world. He finally got his long-awaited chance to prove it against the real best fighter in the world -- and it wasn't even close. That must have been a huge letdown for Shane and I have a hunch that it may have taken away a lot ofhis fire. As a result, he may not have the desire to get in the ring for what's sure to be a bruising, grueling showdown with Cotto. He doesn't need the money.

As for Cotto, I've always been a fan and I have a ton of respect for him. Arum guided his career very shrewdly, but he never ducked anyone and fought a lot of tough, worthy opponents. And his sequence of fights against Judah, Mosely, Margarito, Clottey and Pacquiao (interrupted only by the Michael Jennings respite) is about as tough a stretch as any fighter of the current era would ever take on. I think he's had a fantastic career. He's probably not quite Hall of Fame level, but he's not more than a step or two below and that's a lot to be proud of.

That said, I just wasn't overly impressed by his performance against Foreman and if he gets any of the "big name" fights that he says he wants -- Martinez, Williams or anyone on that level -- I don't see him holding up very well. That's not a put-down of his character or his abilities. It's just my assessment of where he is at this point in his career. I could be wrong!

But he also has three little kids and I'd hate to see him get really hurt, which at this stage has to be considered a possibility if he's in against the wrong opponent.
 

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Andre Warr keeps getting better and better. Dominate performance tonight with a Hopkins esque inside game (with more punches ). Damn this tourney. I wanna see bute vs. Ward.
 

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QUOTE (ElUno20 @ Jun 19 2010, 11:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3035615
Andre Warr keeps getting better and better. Dominate performance tonight with a Hopkins esque inside game (with more punches ). Damn this tourney. I wanna see bute vs. Ward.


Yeah, very impressed with Ward, though it looks like he is one of those guys who comes on like Mr. Praise My Lord and Savior low-key family man, but then gets in the ring and throws as many head butts as punches (well, not really, but still, a lot). Kind of Evander Holyfield Jr.

That aside, I don't see anyone at 168 beating him, in this tourney or afterwards, when HBO will grab him up and put him in against Bute. This is all assuming Ward doesn't get injured or caught with a lucky punch by the likes of Abraham or Froch (if he faces one or both of them). But that aside, his hand speed and reflexes are just too much. I think they will be too much for Dirrell, too, even though Dirrell's speed is probably equal to Ward's. Ward just seems to have more tools, a more complete game, sort of the way Mayweather had a more complete game than Zab Judah, even though Judah's speed and raw athletic skills are probably the equal of Mayweather's.

I think the fight against Bute, sometime in late 2011 or 2012 depending on when this tournament winds up, will be a good one. But ultimately Ward will simply out speed and outhustle Bute. At that point, he'll have polished off all six of the world's best super-middleweights, something Calzaghe never even tried to do (and I'm a Calzaghe fan). Think about that!

Also, all fighters make excuses for losing, but is there a more shameless excuse-maker than Allan Greene? I can't wait to hear his excuse when Kessler stops him.
 

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Green's excuses were the least shocking event of the night. He's the classic fool's gold boxer. A guy with great size and athletic talent, but completely lacking a fighter's mentality.
 

ElUno20

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Tarver is hilarious. Read his last line about Danny Green...

QUOTE
Tarver, 41, unable to secure the cruiserweight fight against Australia's Danny Green that he hoped for, instead announced that he plans to continue his career as a heavyweight.

"I definitely wanted to move up to cruiserweight," Tarver said. "There was one guy in particular that I wanted to fight. But unfortunately, he's interested in unburying dead men.
 

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What a dead boxing calendar right now.

Dawson-Pascal is a good matchup that I'm looking forward to, but that's 6 weeks away.

Marquez-Diaz is a rematch of a great fight that shouldn't be on PPV because both guys have declined noticeably since then.

2010 hasn't been anything special so far.
 

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QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 27 2010, 06:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=3049997
What a dead boxing calendar right now.

Dawson-Pascal is a good matchup that I'm looking forward to, but that's 6 weeks away.

Marquez-Diaz is a rematch of a great fight that shouldn't be on PPV because both guys have declined noticeably since then.

2010 hasn't been anything special so far.


Steve Kim has an interesting article here saying basically the same thing and trying to figure out why.